Monday, February 19, 2007

What I'm supposed to believe

by Menachem Friedman, Shimmy Deutsch, Satmarer Chassidim, and the Oylem HaTorah

Prof. Friedman and co. says I've been lied to these 2 decades, and he's about to break the real story in a soon-to-be-published book. He's decided that whatever we've been told was a great lie and this is what I'm supposed to believe based on his years of pure, unbiased, objective research: I'm supposed to believe that the Rebbe, who spent his last 44 years living for others, never spent a day on vacation, never went to see any of the thousands of institutions his people built up, (save for 3 trips to the Catskills, visits he "regretted" later) never traveled to other cities to make Chassidim like all others do, sat in his room all day learning and answering letters, spent hours upon hours countless times speaking Torah, both Nigleh and Chassidus,and Sippurei Tzaddikim, encouraging his people to increase in all aspects of Torah and Gemilus Chassodim, spent no money on himself, wore the same clothes for years and years as opposed to other Tzaddikim whose wardrobe look like Louis XVI, spent hours in the searing heat and biting cold praying for his fellow Yid, performed miracles for thousands of people, from blessing those who could not bear children to healing the sick unlike anything seen since the days of Baal Shem Tov,

I'm supposed to believe that all that is for naught because he studied in University? And one of the Universities he says he studied in has no records of him? And he lived in a non-Jewish neighborhood and had Chinese neighbors? and because he had an hour's walk to shul on Shabbos? and because he had a younger brother-in-law without a beard, and because his older brother-in-law should've become Rebbe? and because his nephew didn't like him after being treated like a prince by his aunt and uncle? and because he had a different appproach on how to deal with irreligious people, and how to bring them back to the fold? And he had a somewhat different approach on how to deal with the Israeli Government and the policies it adhered to? And I'm supposed to believe this why? Because some people, obsessed with the quest to bring down Lubavitch for some reason, decided that creating a new image of the Rebbe would suit them better, and would make their job alot easier. That no matter the Rebbe's accomplishments he still needs to prove himself by passing some kind of test instituted by his detractors, which of course will never happen.

And I'm the fool here?

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

They say hindsight is 20/20 - in their case, it is 0/20.

Anonymous said...

some people are trying to create a new Rebbe for Chabad by ignoring and misinterpreting much of what the Rebbe did teach. I wonder which is worse.

Anonymous said...

One is Loshon Hora and Rechilus which is forbidden by Torah, the other is Siluf Divrei Horav, which at best is Lifnim Mishuras Hadin.

Anonymous said...

Al tira mepachad pisoim, umeshoias reshoim ki savoi. Utzu etzo vesufar, dabru davar veloi yakum, ki imanu Kel.

First Deutsch, then Berger, now Friedman. Who cares? Anyone can pass gas onto Microsoft Word these days and publish it as a book. They all needed their 15 minutes of fame, which is nothing against the mesirus nefesh and ahavas Yisroel of not only the Rebbe whom we know, but also his 6 predecessors, over a period of many, many 15 minutes.

Fact is that the Ohel is full of Satmarers these days.

Anonymous said...

people are affected by the experiences they had. The is no question about that. The rebbe left the world of chabad, and independently went to a secular environment, where he studied in university. Can one honestly say, that this experience didnt impact his world view?

Mottel said...

Now this is Tzigele at his best! I couldn't say it better
May we be Zoche to bias hamoshiach b'mheirah v'yameinu when the whole world will be filled with truth . . .

Anonymous said...

''Fact is that the Ohel is full of Satmarers these days. ''

Fact is you are the Creedmoorer and it shows

Anonymous said...

I do not understand why people cannot be trusted to write an honest piece about the history of Chabad without those people being motivated to lessen the honour or reputation of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Certainly there are those who write out of spite, but if they don't tell lies and are respectful, what is the issue?

Of course, this isn't just a Chabad phenomena. I once read a respected book which described how the Belzer Rebbe allegedly told his Chassidim that it was fine to stay in Europe at the height of WW2, after which he promptly left the next morning. The words of the Rebbe were edited out of the subsequent kuntress describing that last speech to the Belzer Oylom in Europe. When I mentioned this to some Chassidim they were ready to lynch me.

If Rabbi Shaul Shimon Deutsch's books are inaccurate then by all means show the inaccuracy. The books have disappeared. Why? Where are Volumes 3, 4 and 5 and why can't one buy Volumes 1 and 2 (for a reasonable price). Calling him Shimmy is a little like the pot calling the kettle black, is it not?

How is the effective banning of books different to the Making of a Gadol (concerning which I'm still missing key pages and ironically Chabad friends ask me to see if I can get the missing pages ... does anyone have the missing pages in PDF? :-)

There will always be people who are motivated by the wrong things, but at the end of the day let's just look at facts. If Friedman writes lies, then where are the historians to tear them asunder? If he is telling the truth then deal with it.

I'm more afraid of the lies people say then the truth.

Anonymous said...

right on tzig!
& you shmiel, i think you need to reread tzigs masterpiece.
BTW r' bunim of peshischa was also tainted by his years in leipzig & "nochdertzi" a pharmacist????

Anonymous said...

Sounds like you have a problem expanding your horizons. You have no problem discrediting other gedolei yisroel and believing lies about them. If you are so convinced about the Rebbe's perfection, review the documentation and come to an educated opinion yourself.

Anonymous said...

I dont know about R, simcha Bunim, and dont speak for him. However in the cases of most people I observe, there background, did effect them in some way. It is a hypothesis of mine, that the rebbes own journey away from, (and back to) chabad, somehow influenced his decision to send all his followers into a secular environment. Something makes some frum people more comfortable in solitude amoung the non religious, than their own frum neighbors. I do no limit this to only chabad.

Anonymous said...

shmiel bist ah gihereige idiot!
when did rebbe "leave" chabad??

Anonymous said...

Hirshel, you gotta be kidding. This entire post has gotta be the lamest ever - and you sound so insecure! Sheesh man, gimme a break.

I haven't got enough patience for this stupidity, but bekitzur nimrotz: The issues here are about credibility. Tzaddikim throughout history (not the current "tzaddikim" who's "tzidkus" is merely external) have been knowledgeable and worldly, but that's not the point here - the point here is that when orginizations/individuals aren't honest, they set themselves up for "exposure." Deutch, Friedman, et al, are simply uncovering the list of misinformation that existed - this is normal, and it's our fault. If honest portrayal of the information had always been the case, none of this would matter. Your conclusions based on their "works" are merely your own, and I don't even follow the connection that you've made.

And Isn't there something interesting to write about?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

A conversation I just had with a reader, henceforth "R."

R: I hate that post, you're so insecure

me: no, all I did was explain why I don't care for what they write, ESTP or not

R: I'd say that this is an incredibly stupid issue, and one of your worst ever posts

me: every blog has bad posts

R: not this bad
are you interested in the Rebbe's life?
I happen to like that people are printing this stuff
I get interesting information

me: it's not the info, it's the assumptions

R: I don't need to accept any conclusions that they draw - I am able to draw my pwn conclusions without their help
but no chassidim will do it, so let them do it

me: ok, but most people are too stupid to do that

R: that's not my problem, and i don't care what others do

me: I speak to the people who base their opinions on newspapers and books

R: I think that the conclusions in your post are not even conclusions that deutch freidman or the satmerers mdraw

me: oh really? you're outta touch

Anonymous said...

R: But the people that draw so infintile a conclusion are complete morons, so who cares?

Anonymous said...

Here's the deal - why don't we have an authorized offcial complete & accurate biography of the Rebbe? If we did, it would take away artilery from the haters or the SSDs or Friedmans, etc. (My guess is that isn't anyone in Lubavitch that really has the information.)

Anonymous said...

'Friedman is a hater'
But you know s*** about him.
Anybody who has written anything about the Rebbe you don't like is a hater, but you know s*&^% about them.
I know you from this blog and you are an very infantile (as most Lubavitchers are)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

grow up:

You know s$#@ about me yet you decide that I'm infantile based on what I write. I too base Friedman on how he writes and the smirk evident even in his writings.

Anonymous said...

I've followed you since the beginning of the blog, when that f***n Russian bastard banned you, ok?
Look, forget about the posters here who are a tiny segment of the Jewish world, most of them Lubavitch sympathisers (and of these a few real idiots)look at the hundreds of comments on the Ha'aretz Soko article to get an idea what Amcha yidden really feel about Lubavitch(a personality cult) and were it's headed(Chritianity).
Focus on THAT, if you really care about Lubavitch!

Anonymous said...

the best line was already said.

one has to be more afraid of the lies being said in the name of the Rebbe (in Chabad) than any truths that may be uncovered.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Well then, what other names have you gone by if you've been here for almost 2 years?

There's not much I can do about Sokolovsky, is there? He's a very stubborn fellow, right? Any publication he goes to gleefully accepts his rantings, so there's not much we can do other than take him out, which I'm not prepared to do. The fact that there are hundreds of comments there breaks my heart but there's not much I can do about it. I also don't think that bloggers or people who frequent "talkbacks" are the cross section of society that we need to worry about pleasing, but it definitely is detrimental.

There's also not much I can do about you saying that Lubavitch is a "personality cult," since Lubavitch is furthest from that. Lubavitch is about learning, davening, and bringing Yidden back home.

Anonymous said...

Actually, I think Friedman is not a hater so much as he is out to get his 15 minutes of fame by writing a meaningless wannabe tell-all about a figure who is so much greater than he is. Let him enjoy his 15 minutes, not that he'll get more than three.

Anonymous said...

itzhak schier

You're a fool if you think all this kind of negative publicity doesn't hurt. It certainly does not only in the velt but as well in Chabad.

Is any one counter acting it? sai mitzad velt and sai with di aigeneh kreizin for the people who would like to think independantly.

Anonymous said...

This is the only semi-decent comment here:
"shmiel said...
people are affected by the experiences they had. The is no question about that. The rebbe left the world of chabad, and independently went to a secular environment, where he studied in university. Can one honestly say, that this experience didnt impact his world view? "
And the answer is, of course the Rebbe was affected: To use every bit of technology and modern advance for the furtherance of Yiddishkeit, which was and is outstanding by Chabad more than anyone else, including "Torah Im Derech Eretz"!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Shmiel

really now. The Rebbe did not grow up in the world of Chabad. His father was from Beis HoRav but not exclusively Chabad. He was heavy into Kabboloh, and had many non-Chabad Minhogim. The fact that he went to Berlin and Paris, although not the centers of Yiddishkeit like Warsaw, still would have little "affect" (Kevayochol) since he spent most of his time around Frume Yidden, learning, Davening, etc. What he did use his talents and education for was to show academics that Torah is not foreign to science, and that you can be educated and be a Shomer Torah U'Mitzvos, yet he convinced his own Talmidim not to study secular studies at all.

Anonymous said...

In Pirkei Ovos even R'Yossi says 'eini dor elo bemokom shel torah'.Berlin, was considered a very bad influence in those days

Anonymous said...

I did not say that it does not hurt. I was dealing strictly with Friedman's motivation. Of course it is damaging (if it ever comes out) but unlike the Berger nonsense which continues to intrigue Chabad haters across the spectrum, any impact Friedman has will be minimal and short lived because of the way he is going about things. Berger is a rabid little attack dog. Friedman is a wannabe National Enquirer type journalist who could get a second string position with Ponim Chadashos once his 15 minutes are up.

Anonymous said...

During the 40 plus years of the Rebbes nesius, was he not a Rebbe par excellence?

Did he not serve the world in the most noblest way possible?

anyone can disagree with some of his positions , however did he not uphold the greatest of standards in Yiddishkeit?

was he not a true servant of G-d and His Torah?

No one can argue any of the above.

Anonymous said...

Of course they argue, they are deeply snagged, tif arein.

Anonymous said...

How long are you going to obsess
about yesterday's breakfast? es iz shoin alter naiz

Anonymous said...

hmmm,

you're a real ass. I have to say so.

since this little discussion started there wasn't a quiet period of 4 hours until I posted my post.

Instead of being a chochom and shuting up, you open up with a dig at other Yidden.

You, are the one that gives chabad a bad name.

Ok now lets start the bashing all over again....

Anonymous said...

People ignorant of history. They said the same things about R. Simche Binem of Pshis'che, who also went into the secular world of Germany, in fact to very intersting places there. And he knew a lot of languages, medicine etc.Un men hot ihm baredt azoi vie dem heiliken Libavitcher rebben, until much later they caught on to his unbelievable avoidas hakoidesh in avoidas habirurim and kiruv rechoikim. So nothing new under the sun. The gadlus of certain kedoishe elyoin is far beyond the comprehension of little minds, with tzimtzum hamoichin, especially in the so-called "frime velt." Baal Shem Tov, Pshis'cher, Libavitcher - leis machshuve tfisse bohem klal uklal. Let the dogs bark, as R. Akiva said to Rashbi: dayoch she'ani uboiracho yoidim koichacho!

Anonymous said...

himel, kum arup tzum erd. We're did you think you came, to your local shtibel farbrengen? These guys hate you, hate me, hate everyone. Get used to it and stop blaming the victim.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm
Suffering from delusional paranoia?
Mehn rodeft dich, eh.

Anonymous said...

boropark, are you here to encourage my paranoia by bringing it to life, or are you just oblivious to the comments made on this blog and others?

Anonymous said...

to Shmiel
FYI, the holy Michas Elozer tried to get a diploma from the Chech government to get his rabonais more legitimate then his parents, so he did the secular stuff, took the exam... see Toldoth Rabeinie from prewar munkatch.

The holy Chasam Sofer did his secular stuff in his youth and so did his sons in pressburg where there was a secular High School... see mamorim umesorath from Hamburger Bnie Brak.Would you see by them a secular trace in their haskafa? isnt it enough that the Rebbe built the mossad Oholie Torah where no secular studies exist at all, vs. all chasidic chadorim have there 2 hours of secular studies?

"departed from chabad" look at the holy letters he was corresponding with his father in the profoundest subjects in kabala and chasidus, these are not toralech on the sedra of the voch. His father is begging him to stop his avoida of fasting,I would dare to say that in chasidic history there are no bintel brief between any rebbe, I am all the polishe rebbes included.Also you can see his private reshimoth from this years full of nigleh chasiduth kabala.

Balban
who stopped Sick Shimmy from printing his other volumes, some lubavitcher black helicopter? did lubavitch ban his books like the baning of Making of a Godol of Kameniczky for writing that Reb Aron Kotler knew Pushkin by heart. When Sick Shimmy started out his lunacy he called the BP police deapartment constantly that he needs special security and he put bullet proof on all his windows,eventualy he was very disapointed, that nobody was not looking on his side, besides Fogel Cohen that helped him raise money for his books in satmar circles.

Anonymous said...

Someone brave enough to call themselves "Anonymous" mistyped my surname and said:
"who stopped Sick Shimmy from printing his other volumes, some lubavitcher black helicopter?"

This is a very good question. I'd like to know the answer to it. It is curious that these books are rare and cost over $200. I do not know why they are no longer published. I'm pretty sure though that it's not because they weren't bought!

"did lubavitch ban his books like the baning of Making of a Godol of Kameniczky for writing that Reb Aron Kotler knew Pushkin by heart. "

Lubavitch is smarter than that and we all know it.

I have never met Rabbi Deutsch so I do not pretend to understand the rather insulting diatribe you directed against him. Ad hominem attacks do not make your point any better. Why attack him. Did he tell lies? Expose them. Did he tell the truth (in the main) then what is the problem? I do not believe that anyone who respected the Lubavitcher Rebbe would think any less as a result of any of these books. Do you worry about those who didn't respect him? They are hardly about to start now.

Anonymous said...

isaac balbin, are you seriously questioning why attack the liar? Expose the lies, and the liar, is a very legitimate way of doing things. That way you don't have to spend your life defending against every lie he publishes - you can simply refer to him as a known liar, having proved it once.

You make statement about Lubavitch being smarter than that when it comes to a ban, but don't bother to explain yourself. How do you expect anyone to have a discussion with you, if you give no point to discuss?

Lubavitch is much smarter. We simply didn't publish his book (as was originally planned) and didn't buy it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Mr. Balbin

Deutsch started the book and then decided to become a "Rebbe." How he came to this decision I do not know. He's no more a Rabbi than you are. He then started a shul and started a Shabbos package delivery service. He then started a radio show, and then went on to a museum. It seems like the man has a problem staying the course. Don't blame Lubavitch for his lack of attention span.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Oh

the book sells for what it does because it's controversial and has been out of print for quite some time now. He also probably didn't print very many to begin with.

Anonymous said...

You call 'Oneg Shabbos' a 'Shabbos package delivery service' with clear implications of it not being a great chesed.You are plain and simple a menuvel.What have you done for other yidden, big mouth?

It' eats your kishkes out that Deutsch is quite matsliach, has an interesting column in the Hamodia, does chesed, has a toradigeh museum.
Eat your heart out, tomei and eventual Avodo zoro 'dinner' bepharhesya (and probably in the closet now)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Tsei Tomei:

You're a buffoon to think that that's Hatzlochoh, but you're entitled. You can keep him. I keep my accomplishments quiet.

It's the President of the Shimmy Deutsch fan club ladies and gentlemen, and President of Oneg Shabbos! let's give him a big Circus Tent welcome!

Now get out of my blog.

Anonymous said...

'I keep my accomplishments quiet.'
Like when you complained about the meshulach from Yerusholayim who ask you for a couple of $$?

Big talker.

Anonymous said...

It's tsei tomei a city in Thailand? I think this gentleman has been to Phuket.

Why is calling something a Shabbos package delivery service degrading? That is precisely what the Mitzvah would be, just without grandiose title. Isn't the Schar the same without the grandiosity?

Mottel said...

Wasn't Deutsch's book pulled because he didn't write what his (Lubavitcher)publishers had him contracted to write?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Deutsch had a partner to publish his book, or rather a publisher, a certain Mendelsohn, who would later embark on a monumental project of resetting the whole Shas with the original Vilna plates. I guess he was outdone by עוז והדר, but he did manage to print the Mesechta Bava Metzia, in conjunction with Kehos. I believe Mendelsohn and Zeldowitz, his partner, later split up.

IIRC, (this was back in '95) Mendelsohn and Deitsch began to argue over the book. Deitsch broke the partnership with Mendelsohn and published the book by himself. Mendelsohn went to Rabbi Marlow o"h to stop him, and that;s when word got out about the book and its contents. Until then the actual book was fine, and might have been published by Lubavitchers with much fanfare!

That's when Deitsch left CH and had an epiphany. The Rebbe's soul entered him(sic) and the Dor Hashmini was born. The rest is history.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

correction

Deutsch was never a partner with Mendelsohn, he was just under contract to publish with him. Mendelsohn and Zeldowitz were partners.

Anonymous said...

I have read the descriptions of alleged erratic behaviour of Rabbi Deutsch. I am not sure what to make of it save that people are suggesting that the reason we don't see Volumes 1 or 2 or indeed subsequent volumes is that he has a short attention span. Having read the books, that's a little hard to swallow although it is a possibility.

Given that the readers of this blog seem to so intimately know the way Rabbi Deutsch allegedly functions, perhaps they could show him the above discussions and ask him in my name why his books are no longer available, and if he is working on the subsequent volumes.

Now, telling me you believe that someone is a liar and as a result I should infer that his book is a pack of lies is rather unscientific. He brings sources and documents. I'm more than happy to hear which parts are innacurate. Surely nobody is suggesting the vast majority is a plain lie.

My comment about Lubavitch being smarter than those who we know banned the Making of a Gadol is simply this: Lubavitch as a movement is very sophisticated in respect of how it deals with the outside world. *IF* they wanted to stop the book and I say IF because I do not know (I've heard conflicting stories) then they would never do it in such an overtly controversial way. Having said that, of late, much of Lubavitch's washing is very much in the public eye. That's also a regrettable situation.

Many Lubavitchers DID buy the book(s). I know that to be fact. It is also true that after reading it many discarded it.

But this isn't about Rabbi Deutsch, surely. It's about what's accurate and what is not. My point is that even if all that has been written is proved to be 100% accurate, I can't see anyone who respected the Lubavitcher Rebbe beforehand not doing so now. Those who sit on the fence could go either way, but that's always been the case. Lubavitch hasn't been considered part of the Charedi world for many years, nor does it, in my estimation give two hoots about that.

Anonymous said...

Put it this way isaac, the Rebbe did not party in nightclubs Chas Veshalom, never went without a yarmulke, the Rebbetzin never dressed inappropriately.

I will give him this, he discovered many details of the history of the Rebbe that we had only vague descriptions of previously. We knew the Rebbe went to college, vaguely that it was Sorbonne, Berlin; he discovered the exact details, that the Rebbe gratuated from ESTP and sat in on classes at Sorbonne not as a student.

It is his conclusion that are reprehensive.

Anonymous said...

I didn't see anyone write about nightclubs. Indeed, I didn't see anything about him going without a Yarmulke apart from a naturalisation photo which was unremarkable (he showed a similar photo or Rav Soloveitchik). Indeed, he said explictly in Volume 2 that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wore a beret in the street and in lectures wore a big black yarmulke.

Which conclusions exactly are reprehensible and are they worse than Avrum Ehrlich for instance?

Anonymous said...

You may have seen the sanitized version published by mendelsohn. Do you know which version you read?

Truthfully speaking, Deutch was isolated for his deciding he is Rebbe and creating a circus around himself.

Anonymous said...

Volume 1 was by Chassidic Historical Productions, 1995. Volume 2 was the same but 1997.

The issue of him becoming a Rebbe isn't one that concerns me, of course, in the context of the discussion.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
you are mistaking, deutsch claims to have the FR soul since he is wearing the spodik.Fogel Cohen would not raise funds for a guy with the rebbes soul.

Anonymous said...

Its not a rumor,Its not on Drudge
Can someone clarify the Fogel/Cohen episode in 82 Lee Ave,

Anonymous said...

bALBIN YOU ARE FROM MELBOURNE. Check out with Yirmi at Golds how he was ordered by Rabbi Groner not to sell th ebooks.

Anonymous said...

ur 100% rite, but ur still wrong