r-l: Rabbi Dovid Raskin, ?, Reb Eli Gross o"h, and יבלחט"א Reb Shua Wilansky.
Photo via COL
While Noah Weinberg was still eating Kit-Kats and playing baseball in Baltimore these young men spent their summers traveling the states and bringing Yiddishkeit to far-flung places. I hope you'll remember this the next time you see some feel-good article about Aish naming him some kind of pioneer. That's akin to calling Abe Lincoln one of the founding fathers, but gives NW way too much credit too. Why's he called Noah anyway? What's wrong with Noach?
42 comments:
Hirshel,
Just to preempt the usual suspects I'll say it first; Yer a hater! :-P
Here is my two-part challenge for you tomorrow:
1) Write a posting that doesn't nit pick at something.
2) Write a posting that couldn't be filed under the heading "Defending Chabad"
Does ingesting KitKats render him unfit for kiruv? I don't get the point.
What's the point of reference?
What's this rant about?
Can you elaborate?
(the first outreach center was Novardok, way before Lubavitch, in fact Lubavitch took their ideas and that is ok, but give credit where credit is due)
Chaim G:
ingesting KitKats was just to give it some perspective. The point was when he was living it up his contemporaries were sweating buckets doing "Kiruv."
Yochanan:
The rant is about the idea that the Torahestablishment in America has dubbed him a "Kiruv Pioneer." I take issue with that. Novardok did nothing in America, and besides, Lubavitch did it before them too.
"the first outreach center was Novardok"
The first outreach center was Novardok.
The first...
The first outreach...
The first center...
The first outreach was ...
Novardok?
I just can't make it work. No matter how hard I try. Brainwashing is not affecting me today. Gotta go see my hypnotist.
Yochanan:
FYI
The first outreach center was the Bal Shem Tov
when Snags were afraid of defiling themselves by relating to a Heliger Yidshe Neshome whom they considered lower then themselves
Hirshel,
You tripped up on your words, and I quote: '' Novardok did nothing in America, and besides, Lubavitch did it before them too''. Lubavitch did the 'nothing' before Novardok did 'nothing'?!
Leinyoneinu:Novardok did little in the United States, true.They were a decimated group of survivors who went through hell, a tiny tiny percentage survived the war.Obviously you knew I was referring to their outreach in Europe, where they sent out shlichim across Russia and later across Poland to open up yeshivos in tens of places.They had thousands of talmidim.Lubavitchs' idea of opening up yeshivas in America, done shortly after the previous Rebbe arrived in America is based on their succesful precedent in Europe.Eventually Lubavitch upgraded and sophisticated their methods and have become very succesful.
Btw:A talmid of Novardok, R'Gershon Liebman zatsal, opened up and pioneered a succesful yeshiva for Sephardic youth in France, this after being a father for many in the terrible Kovno ghetto and after the war helping out the orphans in his yeshiva in France.
Giving credit were credit is due never hurt anybody, so why does it rile you up so much?Chabad does excellent work, but I don't know why they also demand that everyone else get zero credit or mention.Btw, like it or not Aish Hatorah does and has done wonderful work, give them credit for that
The first outreach center was Avrohom Avinu drawing passers by into his tent to say a berachah. Everyone since was/is a copycat.
There, I've offended everyone.
Menatzpach
I'll try and meet your challenge, with Hashem's help.
Yochanan
What I meant was that they did outreach IN EUROPE even before Novardok. The Rebbe Rashab sent Talmidim to Bukhara and Georgia to be Rabbonim, Melamdim, and Shochtim/Mohalim. Nobody tries to take away accomplishments of Novardok, you're the one who brought them up. Others in Poland had many Yeshivos, like Radomsk and Bobov, amongst others. And of course, Lubavitch.
Aish gets the wrath of the Tzig because they indoctrinate all their students to hate Lubavitch, even if he's your own HUSBAND!!!!! and I speak of experience.
Even in the US, there was the Jewish Endeavor Society doing kiruv back around 1900, staffed with early (pre-Conservative) JTS people, such as R' Mordechai Menachem Kaplan (pre-apikorsus).
That was before Anshei Lubawitz came to these shores (their first shul was incorporated in 1916 in Boro Park).
"Why's he called Noah anyway? What's wrong with Noach?"
What's wrong with Noah ? Have you ever heard of (lihavdil...) R. Joel Teitelbaum of Satmar ? Did you ask 'Why's he called Joel anyway? What's wrong with Yoel?"
What about Rabbi Joseph I. Schneerson of Lubavitch ? Do you ask 'Why's he called Joseph anyway? What's wrong with Yoseph?' ?
"Why's he called Noah anyway? What's wrong with Noach?"
What's wrong with 'Rabbi'?
Other Kiruv pioneers:
Reb Yisroel Salanter who went to Paris to try to be mekarev the Jews there. Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld who travelled throughout Eretz Yisroel being mekarev rechokim. R' Aryeh Levin who was mekarev many of the Jews in the early Yishuv in Israel. Rabbi Avigdor Miller who wrote many books targeted at being mekarev the non-frum. The Bostoner Rebbe who was doing Kiruv in Boston from 1944. Rav Shamshon refael Hirsch who wrote the Nineteen letters, Chorev, and his perush on Chumash specifically targeted at being mekarev rechokim and those who were drifting away.
I just want to say that this Blog is really a mechaye for a Litvak like me. It proves pretty much everything people say about Chabad is true. They see themselves as the only real version of Yiddishkeit. They denigrate and spit at anyone who is not like them and disregard the accomplishments and good deeds of all other Jews.
Somehow, Chabad is now supposedly the inventor of Kiruv in the world when as demonstrated, the entire idea is false and only believed by childish ranters who wish to keep believing their naarish fantasies.
I'm going to have applaud Tzig on posting the above comment, not from me, but in my opinion very true.Usually the Lubab and especially the 'azoi gerifeneh' tzu gekumeneh, want to prove just how Lubab they are by stifling any dissenting opinions
Btw, Hirshel, when I got home late I realized what cooked your goose about Aish. Their new movie 'Inspired Too' a sequel to the succesful Inspired.Boro Park and Flatbush are covered with posters announcing venues and showtimes.This is an Aish production with Rabbi Yaakov Salomon,whom Tzig excoriated in an earlier post.They have also opened a new website kiruv.com.
Tzig, you are a pretty decent guy most of the time, besides when you start trying to compensate for not being born a Lubab.Take it easy dude, it's ok to be Lubab, but it's not ok, to criticise everyone.I'm in the marketing biz and I'm going to give you a little tip:Defending an item all the time makes it sound bad.Chabad can stand on it's own merits without you trying to gouge out the eyes of any other organization who is in kiruv.Understand that not everybody is about to become a Lubavitcher, there are myriad paths in avoidas Hashem.
Learn to stop being such an 'imfarginner'.Peace.
anon, I'm glad your fantasies are reinforced. That's what happens when a lunatic goes to the psychiatrist.
thanbo, were they an adjunct of the Jewish Outdoors Society.
Nusach Ari shuls were established in America in the 1880s. Would you like some fake fries with that false history of yours?
Novardokers set up Gateshead yehiva. Also see the wiki Novardok wiki article here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novardok_yeshiva
Anonymous "Litvak", you are embarassing my own Litvak-identity. By your account, why not add Rambam who wrote Moreh nevuchim to be mekarev, or R. Saadiah Gaon and R. Yehudah Halevi etc. And what about Beruriah (. R. Meir's wife) etc. You are obviously missing the most obvious point. Lubavitch are the pioneers in an organizational effort, making this an official priority on their agenda etc., not one-man efforts as had been done by literally countless (you could say: by every conscientious religious Jew) others throughout the ages.
The very fact that the Lubavitch efforts for kiruv were strongly opposed by the Yeshivah-world and leaders in the 40's with all kinds of excuses (we are too weak, it is dangerous, we have to concentrate on building ourselves etc.)proves that Lubavitch was unique. It is only as they saw how successful Lubavitch became, and how this was admired universally beyond their confines (which obviously has financial implications as well), that they decided to jump on the band-wagon, imitating the very things they earlier condemned.
Honest Litvak
I happen to daven in the same minyan as one of the big knakkers of Partners in Torah in my village, and I can safely say that by the frum velt, Kiruv is a classic Ponzi scheme to support the "Yeshivish" system financially.
Honest Litvak,
You are not being very honest.I give Lubavitch credit where credit is due, but cannot credit them for being the pioneers,at least in an organized fashion of organised kiruv.
In my view, Novardok, who set up many yeshovos in Russia and Poland, sending out bochurim as shluchim are the prototype of the succesful outreach programs.Tzig was trying to be funny when he said that Lubavitch 'also' opened yeshivas in Poland.They got there very late in the game.The yeshiva in Otvock near Warsaw was opened sometime in the 20's way after Novardok had opened up many, many yeshivas years earlier.Also Lubavitch targeted frum Poylishe chasidim, with their Lithuanian style yeshiva.What I mean is as opposed to the style in Poland which was learning in a shtiebel, like the many Gerer and Radomsk, Lubavitch was a yeshiva like we have today, with a chosheve rosh yeshiva, with shiurim, with its own building etc.Poland only had one other chasidishe yeshiva, Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin in this style and that was only open to massive illuyim.
"Lubavitch are the pioneers in an organizational effort, making this an official priority on their agenda etc., "
It is true to say that in America, in the 20th century, Lubavitch were pioneers. However, A historical view of Judaism shows that they were not the first. Rav hirsch made Kiruv an "official" part of his agenda as he was involved in engaging the non-frum, same for Rav Salanter and Rav kook and Rav Sonnenfeld. The Bostoner Rebbe made it a central point of his organization.
Lubavitch deserves a lot of credit. What they dont deserve is the right to claim that they invented kiruv and that all others are just imitators. Its false and shows the self-centeredness of Chabadskers who make this claim.
Friendly anonymous,
Firstly you comment has very little authority being that basically both you and I AND everyone else are anonymous commentators.But lets try and get your logic at least: A)Based on ONE (!)guy you know 'you can safely say that kiruv in the frum velt is a ponzi scheme'B)Is Lubavitch part of the 'frum velt' or not?
Look, brother,I think I can safely say that next time you post you should think and not decide everything from one 'knacker' you know
Do you deny that the entire frum velt opposed Lubavitch on what we call Uforatzata and you call kiruv?
Nobody's criticizing their work. You guys criticize everything Lubavitch does, even inventing motives!
what I criticize is revisionism, and the attacks of johnny-come-latelys like Aish on Lubavitch, the undisputed leader of outreach.
"A historical view of Judaism shows that they were not the first. Rav hirsch made Kiruv an "official" part of his agenda as he was involved in engaging the non-frum, same for Rav Salanter and Rav kook and Rav Sonnenfeld."
You don't seem to get it. RHirsch made this his agenda by means of polemics and other writings, not by going out to be mekarev people. He hoped that his writings (!!!) would be sufficient to persuade others. This has been done throughout the ages,as I mentioned re RSaadiah Gaon, RYehudah Halevi, Rambam etc. etc. with their writings.
The "lecture-tours" of Rabbis Salanter, Kuk, Sonnenfeld etc. were just that, hoping to bring a "hisorerus", but again not dealing with peoploe directly. One who can be said to deal with people directly was the mediaeval (!) R. Mosheh of Kutzi, author of Sefer Mitzvos Godol (Sma"g), who was the innovator of mivtza tefillin, to put on tefillin with people (as he writes in his intro). As for R. Yossef Yoisel of Nevardok, yes, indeed, he made a wide and succesful campaign to found talmud-torahs/yeshivos in Russia during the first world war, and sending his students all around to bring children into them -more often than not without their parents' consent. But this can be said to have been done already earlier by the Rebbe Reshab among the Sefardim, sending his shluchim there. I have no doubt that others did the same still earlier,in various places and various times throughout the ages. As I said earlier, every truly religious Jew who takes seriously the kol Yisroel areivim etc. etc. would feel compelled to do whatever he can in this regard, so that we cannot talk re who was first etc.
The kiruv-work as an organizationl effort, dealing with people directly, families and individuals, part of an official program going out into the streets, campuses, groups, homes etc. - as we know it today - was most definitely an innovation of Lubavitch. Again, as satted, it was officially opposed by pretty much the full span of the orthodox establishment (roshei yeshivos) for the reasons mentioned, until they saw the success (and some would argue nowadays - once they had augmented and fortified their own circle and felt safe). And even now, there remains a vital distinction: to this day, none, I repeat NONE, goes to places, towns etc., where they would have to do the ground-work to establish a base for religious life. They move only into towns where these are existing already, more often than not founded by Chabad. Aish Hatorah is notorious for not going even into places like that unless they see first a solid basis for financial sustenance, to raise local funds not only for their local institution but also beyond that for their "headquarters." I challenge anyone to name a single presence of Aish that does not fall into this category.
Dovid says "Also Lubavitch targeted frum Poylishe chasidim, with their Lithuanian style yeshiva." I don't deny that, but the same applies to the other yeshivos, including Nevardok before they started their network of talmud-torahs for others. R. Yossef Yoisel made it an essential part of his agenda to infiltrate existing yeshivos to establish there his derech in mussar. For details see the excellent history of the Mussar-movement "Tenu'as Hamussar."
So we are back to square one, the blatant attempt at revisionism, with irrelevant arguments about earlier generations.
Honest Litvak
I don't understand, we have nothing against Rav Hirsch, he revived Torah in Germany. He did not think on a global scale, and he did not do so in America.
Please correct the captioon to identify Reb Elya Gross a"h (in stead of "Mendelson" (third from right).
I'm not sure about Chitrik.
The other two (Raskin and Wilansky) are correct!
Thanks.
Honest Litvak.
The Resha'b sent a few people to Georgia or the Caucuses, where the Jews followed sephardic custom and were very ignorant.I don't think they opened up yeshivos .
I would like you to quote me a source that what RASHAB DID WAS BEFORE THE r'yoizel of Novardok.I really doubt it was, besides it's two different things.
My point with the yeshiva in Otvock was not that they shlepped boys from other chassidesn to Lubavitch, which indeed they did.The point was that the bochurim who went to Otvock were allready very frum and chasidish.I t was not an outreach thing to get them frum.Novardok on the other hand targeted boys who WOULD NEVER have ended up in yeshiva often times.This is the basis of KIRUV.
I explicitly stated that Lubabvitch went with this idea and developed it into what it is today.
Be honest and admit that in pre war Europe Novardok were the initiators and at the forefront of what we know3 call KIRUV.
"thanbo said... That was before Anshei Lubawitz came to these shores (their first shul was incorporated in 1916 in Boro Park)."
There was a Lubavitch Shul in New Haven CT in the 1880's - it merged with Bikur Cholim mid last century and still davens Nusach Ari.
Novardok really shlepped in bochurim who would have not continued in Yeshivah? Did they or you have a crystal ball to know this? And perhaps Tomchei Tmimim looked in this same crystal ball when choosing Talmidim?
The Rebbe Rashav established Tiferes Bachurim as an adjunct to Tomchei Tmimim for working young me to study Torah.
It's simple.
Aish is mekarev people to Yiddishkeit.
Chabad is mekarev people to Chabad.
Actually, that is the funniest thing I have ever seen a snag write. It tells us just how deeply you have been snagged. Aish is Mekarev people to Aish, to support Aish, to be a part of Aish. Aish exists to perpetuate itself. That is why an Aish person will almost never end up at Chabad, because they have been trained to only look to Aish for guidance, while many BT unfortunately that began with Chabad end up at Aish, because Chabad was pushing them to Yiddishkeit.
Do we think that our best accomplishment is when someone becomes a Chossid? Sure, because we believe that ours is the purest way of Avodas Hashem. The fact is, people under our Hashpooh find their way to Aish as well, because other ways of Torah true Yiddishkeit have not been ruled out.
Question, you said the guy on the right is Rabbi Raskin? Is this the same Raskin who went to Morrocco?
Thanks.
no, Tamara.
that was his younger brother.
Dovid, you may have a point re the chronology. I had a quick glance, as much as time permitted me, and it seems that R. Shmuel Levitan was sent to Gruzia just before Pesach 1916 - which would then be about the same time, or possibly a few months later, that the Nevardikers started their Talmud Torahs-program.
Honest Litvak
Hirshel, I'll show this to Rabbi Raskin's daughter(the one who was the rabbi of Morrocco, who is now passed). I wonder if she's seen this picture of her uncle. She's my rebbetzin actually. I'm always amazed on one hand of how small the jewish world is; then again, the Chabad circles tend to be small.
Honest Lutvak
Thanks for checking it out.I do think that Novardoks outreach preceded 1916.In 1897 the Alter founded his first yeshiva, (around the same time as the Rashab founded tomchei temimim)Within a few years he was already sending talmidim out in Russia, after the communists took over Russia the Novardokers shvatrzed the border to Poland and opened many,many yeshivas throughout Poland.It's clear to me that this succesful model was what the Rayatz used when coming to America.
Btw, when Lubavitch opened the yeshiva in Otvock, it was to try and build up Lubavitch which had very few chasidim in Poland.Almost all the boys were Poylishe chasidim.This was clearly not reaching out to boys who's backrounds were weak.Remember that Lubavitch had been decimated by the redifos of the communists .
I don't see anybody here condemning Novardok for brainwashing young boys. They were the outcasts of the Yeshivah world, for all the wrong reasons of course, but that was still the case. The self-deprecating that they did "Nisht Nispo'el veren fun velt" was not accepted behavior, amongst other things. Boys ran away from home to join them, against their parents' wishes, and they were frummer than the rest of the Yeshivah world.
They also DID NOT, FOR THE MOST PART, DEAL WITH BOYS THAT WERE OFF THE DERECH, so let's stick to the facts re: Novardok. What I believe Rav Baranchik in Riga did was not within the realm of Novardoker Yeshivos. He did Kiruv, and that was with boys that were from frum homes. Yet, nobody's diminishing his accomplishments!!!!
It should be interesting to note, that in pre-war Poland Bobov was doing a lot of kiruv among those that would today fall under the category of "off the derech".They used to say in Bobov, that there was no ta'anis bechoirim on erev pessach, because the older boys in many families had been lost to yiddishkeit.Also Reb Areleh of Kozhnitz was very active in bringing back a lot of people,especially from among those that nobody was interested in (small-time crooks,artisans etc).I myself know a very prominent family whose ancestor was an actor in a circus ( should be interesting for the circus tent blog).
Yes, Yoshe, and that's why the other Sanzer Eyniklach were not very fond of RBZ Bobover the 1st. They were plain and simple jealous, especially since he was only a great-grandson.
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