Wednesday, February 28, 2007

4 minutes that shook the (Litvishe) world

In the following audio clip the Rebbe repeats a statement - at the Purim Farbrengen - about the Chazon Ish envying the simplest Talmid in Tomchei Tmimim because he did not learn Chassidus while alive, and now that he's afen Eylem hoEmes wishes that he did. The Rebbe called the CI a "Godol B'Yisroel," א גדול שבגדולים, געזעצען באהלו של תורה כל ימיו, און געקענט גוט לערנען

The statement was first made by Reb Foleh Kahan soon after the CI's passing, and word soon got out about his statement. Let's listen and be objective about the reasoning behind the Vort. It was also on Purim, כטוב לב המלך ביין. Foleh Kahan (Refoel Nachman) was Reb Yoel Kahan's father. He was imprisoned in Soviet Gulags for spreading Yiddishkeit in the Soviet Union, and was allowed to leave for Eretz Yisroel in 1935. He made the statement at a Farbrengen in honor of Yud Shvat in 5716, and the letters of condemnation soon started streaming to the Rebbe. The Rebbe responded the next Purim, with the greatest respect for the CI, but seemingly agreeing with RNK's statement, at least on Purim. Let's listen.

037 - Purim 5716 with the Rebbe

I tried uploading it with the little media player, just like I did with the Mayanot debate, but the playback speed was way too fast. So we'll need to click on the above link and listen in the media player provided on that page.

See it in print starting from Oys Lamed Ches.

79 comments:

Anonymous said...

Fohrt, in "M'shivchei Rebbe" (Laufer, 5759), the mayseh from 5714 in the car - says something respectful as well.

(U'Bifrat, the last line there..)

ולא באתי אלא להעיר.

Milhouse said...

It sounds to me like he's quoting the outraged mail that he received, without comment. He's not necessarily endorsing the titles; he's merely explaining how it could be that someone with all those titles could nevertheless be envious of someone who learned chassidus.

Anonymous said...

Good piece of Purim Tayreh.

Good to let people know how you guys really think inside, keep it up.

How much did the Rebbe drink that Purim ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

גרייסע

please tell me you didn't listen to it, otherwise I'll just think you're a silly, ignorant reactionary.

What exactly bothered you about the Rebbe's words?

The Rebbe drank 3 bottles of 96% vodka, does that make you feel better?

Anonymous said...

What bothers me is that it seems like he is an idealogue. Because Chassidus decided that its the pnimius of Torah, it must be that the Gadol HaDor could actually be jealous of children who learn it. I am no chussid. But I have never heard a Litvak say that a gadol among Chassidic circles is envious of children who learn Torah. If it were written the other way around, with a statement to the effect that the Rebbe is jealous of a Litvishe child for being a Litvak, you would call it apikorsus. And you know it.

Anonymous said...

I am not sure if my last post went through. In case it did, please disregard this statement.

This response almost gives the appearance of the Rebbe being an idealogue. Because chassidus renders itself the pnimius of Torah, it must be that the Gadol HaDor (I am sorry, but he way) would be envious of a child learning it. Imagine your outrage if a Gadol from the Litvish world would say that the Rebbe is jealous of a child who learns Torah because only the Litvaks learn Torah!!! What Chassidim appear to maintain is ridiculous, wrong, and unsupported. It also appears to have lead to the mistaken notion that the Gemara in B"K has any bearing on the obvious and abhorren disrespect the gentleman you quoted had toward the Gadol Hador.

He should have been more vocal about that, were it not for the mistaken notion that Chassidus is the pnimius of Torah, c"v. I can understand if the Rebbe wrote this way about Toras Nistar--everyone could agree on this. But Chassidus? That's over the top. No one will ever be jealous of another yid for attempting to reach Hashem in another way. But to pretend as though one way is superior to another renders some Chassidim to be as bad as they portray the elitist Misnagdim of yore--who were better Jews just because they had the Torah and the poshut chassidm did not. Its WRONG.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Chassidim don't go around calling others Apikorsim, only Satmarer do that. The Litvaks have almost a monopoly on that, especially regarding Chabad. I would imagine that most Litvaks think that all Chassidishe Rebbes ARE jealous of a child in a Litvishe Cheder because they consider them such Amiratzim (r"l)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Anonymous (1:44am)

most people here have no idea what you spoke of, car etc. Please share that story with us.

Anonymous said...

I want to add Hirschel, that I am not writing this out of disrespect. But I reiterate that I never heard a Litvishe Rosh Yeshiva (and I learned by several greats) that the Chassidish Gedolim are envious of Litvish children because only they have the pnimius of Torah. I gladly encourage you to prove that this was in fact stated in any text you choose. But I doubt you will find it.

I do not apprecitate your narrow view, wherein you write "r"l" by Chassidish Rebbes being Amiratzim, but not the same when this was suggested regarding the undisputed gadol hador. We really have to think bigger than this, and rise above politics.

Milhouse said...

Mr anonymous: the cases are not parallel, because chasidim do learn nigleh. There is no part of Torah that Litvaks learn and chasidim do not, so there is nothing for which a chasidishe godol could envy a litvishe bochur. But the Chazon Ish did not learn chasidus, therefore it stands to reason that once he came to realise that it is part of Torah he would envy a simple yeshiva bochur who does learn it.

Above all, though, I must protest in the strongest terms against your chutzpah in referring to Folye Kahan as you did: "the obvious and abhorren disrespect the gentleman you quoted had toward the Gadol Hador". If you have a problem with how I spoke about someone, you have the right to criticise, but you have no right to criticise a man who exercised mesiras nefesh mamash for yiddishkeit. Not only that — while I might have the right to speak like that of the Chazon Ish, he did. He earned the right. Indeed, it seems fairly clear to me that he, like all those who showed so much mesirus nefesh in those years, is on a far higher level than the CI or anyone who never did anything but sit and learn bimenuchas haguf.

As for the underlying question, whether chasidus really is penimius hatorah, or merely a lot of nonsense ch"v, you are free to believe what you like, but it won't change the metzius, and it won't change what chasidim believe. Like it or not, this is what chasidim believe - that's why they are chasidim. You can't expect them to recant that belief, or to be ashamed of it, just because you don't like it.

Nor are chasidim some sort of fringe group that have to justify themselves against the standard of your form of yiddishkeit. You think you have the whole Torah, and chasidim have added nonsense to it; chasidim think they have the whole Torah, and you have only a half-Torah. If you agreed with them you would be a chosid, and if they agreed with you they wouldn't be chasidim. They respect your right to stick with your nebech half-Torah, and if you excel in that half they will respect your achievement, even though they see you as despising and rejecting the ikkar of the Torah. You owe them the same courtesy, of taking their beliefs on their own terms. Take a lesson from Beis Shammai, who respected Beis Hillel even though BH called some of BS's children mamzerim, and from BH who trusted BS not to fob their mamzeirim off on them even though BS thought they were kosher.

Anonymous said...

THE SHPOLYEH ZEIDEH TOLD RAV NACHMUN YOU CAME TO THE WORLD TO EARLY TO BRING MOSIACH RAV NACHMUN REPLIED THEY CALL YOU ZEIDAH BECAUSE YOU CAME TO LATE THE MACHLOKES OF TZADDIKIM ARE NOT FOR US TO COMMENT ON THEY ARE ON DIFFERENT LEVELS BECAUSE AFTER THIS STORY THE NON THE LESS SEND CHASIDDIM TO ONE ANOTHER TO BE MEVAKESH EITZAH THE REBBE ALWAYS WAS A FAN OF AHAVAS CHINAM LETS TRY TO PROPAGATE THAT INSTEAD OF MACHLOKES THERE ENOUGH OF THAT TO GO AROUND

Milhouse said...

Oops, that should have been "while I might not have the right...".

Anonymous said...

This silly story was not the Rebbes finest hour.Yael Kahn is Folyehs son.Yael also says silly things

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm sorry, I didn't know the Rebbe had better and worse hours. How would you rate these hours, what system do you use?

Anonymous said...

Chabad has always felt that others were not on their Madreyga unless they learned Chassidus Chabad, but Chabad were largely diplomatic about making such statements. These days most of the statements that come from Chabad are conjecture regarding previous statements.

I was expecting somebody to point out the familial connection between the Karelitz family and the Schneersohn family. I think there is some relevance there in understanding why davka the Chazon Ish was named. Perhaps this would help to understand why other Gedolim weren't also publically minimised because they didn't learn Chabad Chassidus ... or were they?

Anonymous said...

"The Rebbe responded the next Purim, with the greatest respect for the CI"

Hirshel, I do not see that at all... Not only is Milhouse correct that the Rebbe was merely "quoting the outraged mail that he received", but even more than that, the Rebbe added a very ironic "nit shaichus tzu zogen!" comment both to the amount of letters and to the description of gadlus hoish contained in those letters...

Thanks for the audio file, I enjoyed it a lot!
ת"ח ת"ח והזמן גרמא

Anonymous said...

This whole thing is more entertaining than anything else, a "who-said-what-before-who-really-meant-what-would-he-have-said-that" kind of thing, putting Abbot and Costello to shame.

This quote is indicative though: "But I have never heard a Litvak say that a gadol among Chassidic circles is envious of children who learn Torah. If it were written the other way around, with a statement to the effect that the Rebbe is jealous of a Litvishe child for being a Litvak, you would call it apikorsus. And you know it." Not only would we say it, we do say it, in the chasidishe teitch of "Ani Mispalel LeDaas Zeh HaTinok" - that the purity of any child (Litvish qualifies as child, not alien, right) puts a grown man, and especially a Talmid Chochom, to shame. In fact, the greater the Chochom, the more the shame.

You see, snags expect us after talking so much of bittul, to have bittul before them. The issue is, see, we worship the Eibeshter, not our own gadlus. So that bittul is to Him and His desires. Which means that it makes more sense for a Chasidishe Rebbe to feel bittul before a young child's innocence (which reflects the Peshitus HoAtzmus) than for the Chazon Ish.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Berl

you're not helping here......

I relistened (funny how you hear different things once you look out for them....) and see your point. There was much synicism in the Rebbe's tone, but, I believe, only pertaining to the Taynes that the letter writers had. The Rebbe concurred with the Vort by Foleh, and even added a Moker in Nigleh. I just don't think the Rebbe tried to belittle the CI.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,

You are a man of extremes - it's either "the greatest respect" or "tried to belittle." How about "expressed some irony about the piously-exaggerated praise"?

Surely you would agree that the Rebbe would never add the “nit shaichus tzu zogen” comment (you can almost see the smile and the twinkle in the eyes) had the person in question been, say, Reb Chaim Oizer, etc.

Hope this helped. :)

Anonymous said...

If the Rebbe didn't agree at least to some extant, about the fact that he was a gadol etc. he wouldn't have repeated it. You have to lisrten to many sichos to get the nuance. The "cynycism" is due to the hemshech ("milera) not to the part about him goofa really being a gadol ("mile'ayl"). Indeed it's a quote from the letters but it's an earned quotable quote!

Anonymous said...

Berl has come back to life.
So the C.I. does or does not have the Chbdsker hechsher?
Maybe that's why there is no C.I to be found in 770.....(and a host of other Rishoinim,they after all did not learn 'chsides' either)
One thing is for sure, from the 'eydelkait' of some of the posters it's clear that they are big beki'im in 'chsides'

Anonymous said...

Re the mayseh from "M'shivchei Rebbe" (M. M. Laufer 5759, אה"ק):

The sefer is not תח"י כעת, so it's ע"פ מיטב זכרוני:

On the Rebbe's return from being מנחם אבל הר"י מסאטמאר זצ"ל, in 5714, the conversation of the eltere chassidim in the back seat, was somewhat less re the CI.
The Rebbe interrupted their conversation from the front seat, saying "Er is fohrt g'ven a TaC"h." The chassidim commented re Yiras Shomayim. To which the Rebbe replied, Un dos is oichet g'ven mit yiras shomayim.." ע"כ.
*
I must reiterate, I do not have it with me, but I believe the sefer (which only went one print, as of now), is still avail. in Kehos NY, etc.
*
The mokor brought there is RY"K, who was the driver at the time.

Agav, for other hanochos from him, from the car, etc:
-In "תו"מ מנחם ציון".
-Re the Rebbetzin, in "בנאות דשא".
-More not-so-known stories and anecdotes - on shturem and COL of recent months.

(U'lhoir, in the list of ועד הנחות בלה"ק of missing sichos לע"ע, in the earlier years, they qwuote from his yoman, where he writes a few, but says there were more..)
[-whoever may have from those, can get a list from רח"ש ברוק- ות"ח להם במאד]

Anonymous said...

Milhouse,

With all due respect you did not really address my comments. In addition, your comments are riddled with contradiction and apparent self-doubt.

I cannot understand how one can vacillate so freely between giving me mussar on treating others who are different with respect (which, needless to say, was my point in the first place) to so matter-of-factly calling my "nebech chelek in Torah" inferior to those who believe in Chassidus. You want the cake, and you want to eat it, too. You demand high levels of respect for your leaders, but then support the disparagement of Gedolei Hador. I doubt your Chassidus offers more than thatis already in Toras nistar, unless you are stating that Moshe Rabbeinu, Aron HaKohen, Abaya and Rava, Ravina and Rav Ashi, Rav Sadiah Gaon, Rav Hai Gaon, Rav Shrira Gaon, the Rambam, Rashi, Ramban, Rashba, Mechaber, Rama, Maharshal, Shach, Bach, Taz, Shaagas Aryeh, Vilna Gaon, R' Akiva Eiger (and the list goes on) had a "nebech chelek in Torah" because they lacked what your doctrine regards as "the pnimius of Torah." According to you, this statement is tautological, and it allows you to embrace the opinions someone who was "moser nefesh" for the klal to insult an undisputed gadol hador. [Right, cause the Chazon Ish just partied all day according to you?].

The Chazon Ish does not need your respect. No Gadol does. But the fact you so readily allow insults to his name and all previous gedolei yisroel who were not indoctrinated with your system of belief says a lot about your brand of Judaism--a brand which at once views non-Chassidim as the elitists of yore and "nebechs" at the same time. And that kind of thinking only reveals that you have a deep, religous chip on your shoulder. What I was writing about was how shameful it truly is that you cannot respect gedolim because of your beliefs. If I were to find someone who would believe that one who did not learn like a Brisker lacked the pnimius of Torah, does that mean the Rebbe is jealous of him? According to you, yes. According to me it does not. That is because my non-Chassidish view is not so distorted and myopic as to place politics and dogma over the worth of great individuals, because my practice of Judaism embraces Emes and seeks the Greatness of Hashem and his Torah wherever it is. I am not sure if you are a real chussid, I would be inclined to imagine you are, but your way of thinking is immature and hardly going to allow for a meaningful, spiritual growth--not if it enforces the disparagement of our gedolei hador.

It is obvious from your contradictions that you are not entirely clear and what ought to be believed by someone of your belief system. All I ask is that you carefully assess what it is you are trying to do and be. It is not too much to ask, I think, not too much for one who allows for the derision our Chachmei Torah and Ballei Mesorah from Moseh Rabbeinu and on.

Anonymous said...

Millhouse-

The Rebbe didn't dish out compliments when they were not deserved, and he didn't exaggerate. its true that the Rebbe's tone was partially in jest, but that was clearly at the onslaught of offense taken by the complainers. I was actually blown away by the titles that Rebbe gave to CI. Maybe Tzig or someone else can tell us where the makor is for the Rebbe's statement regarding the Frierdiker Rebbbe's titles that he gave people at the beginning of his letters-- that they were 100% serious.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Old and tired arguments is what you make, o' commenter above this one.

We are not the Shach and Taz, we're little insects, and we have shortcomings and faults, for that we need Limud HaChassidus. It's not deriding to the Rishonim to say that WE TODAY need Chassidus. The Holy Belzer Rov said that the Chofetz Chaim reached his level even without Chassidus, but that was the exception to the rule!

Anonymous said...

Then we respectfully argue that the Chazon Ish was an exception to that rule, as well.

But would add one thing: If something is pnimius of Torah now, it it was the pnimius of Torah back then, too. Besides, why should we be bidieved? Why should we not try to be like the amolidiker yidden, without regarding to such unbelievably drastic changes in our mesorah? Is it the pnimius of Torah? Or is to replace the pnimius of Torah that some chassidim believe can no longer be reached? Were the Taz and Bach the only to reach this level? Was everyone else in their dor a "nebech" because they lacked it? This notion is so wrong on so many levels.

I also ask that you consider the source. You are quoting another rebbe to butress the argument that people NEED chassidus. Did R' Moshe NEED it? (if the Chazon Ish needed it, he needed it, too). How about every other gadol in the 20th century? How about if they learn mussar? Machshava? Kaballa? Is it only chassidus? This, my friend, is a tired argument. It is a bigoted one, too. And has no basis outside the limited chassidish myopic view you so eloquently embody. Plenty of fine tzadikim reached their levels without chassidus. Plenty of good Jews reached exalted levels without it. And it is a chutzpah noirah to deride the CI and others by stating they are jealous of Chassidish children. You would not tolerate such talk from a brisker vis a vis the Rebbe, and you know it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I wouldn't tolerate it from a Brisker, you're right.

The Rebbe makes the point that he was a Menaged to Chassidus, which is interesting, especially since the CI is seen as a Ish HaHashkofoh, which would seemingly involve some Nistar too.

I think the whole point here was not the CI per se, but rather to bring out TO HIS OWN CHASSIDIM and Yidden bichlal how Limud HaChassidus is so necessary these days, that even the CI would like to learn it but can't since there's no Tshuveh in Olam HaBoh. He used the CI as an example, BECAUSE of his stature and Madreigoh.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I wouldn't tolerate it from a Brisker, you're right.

The Rebbe makes the point that he was a Menaged to Chassidus, which is interesting, especially since the CI is seen as a Ish HaHashkofoh, which would seemingly involve some Nistar too.

I think the whole point here was not the CI per se, but rather to bring out TO HIS OWN CHASSIDIM and Yidden bichlal how Limud HaChassidus is so necessary these days, that even the CI would like to learn it but can't since there's no Tshuveh in Olam HaBoh. He used the CI as an example, BECAUSE of his stature and Madreigoh.

Anonymous said...

>>The Rebbe makes the point that he was a Menaged to Chassidus, which is interesting, especially since the CI is seen as a Ish HaHashkofoh, which would seemingly involve some Nistar too.

The CI was flient in Toras Nistar, btw.

Anonymous said...

>> I wouldn't tolerate it from a Brisker, you're right.

And yet . . .

Anonymous said...

>>I think the whole point here was not the CI per se, but rather to bring out TO HIS OWN CHASSIDIM and Yidden bichlal how Limud HaChassidus is so necessary these days, that even the CI would like to learn it but can't since there's no Tshuveh in Olam HaBoh. He used the CI as an example, BECAUSE of his stature and Madreigoh.

Imagine a brisker saying that the Baal Shem wishes he could learn R' Chaim . . . just to make a point.

I am just saying this is problematic for me if the Rebbe was serious.

Anonymous said...

"And it is a chutzpah noirah to deride the CI and others by stating they are jealous of Chassidish children."
You just assumed derision. Why not take it a sign of respect - that he sits in Gan Eden and is nehene miziv hashchina, and therefore now being in Olam HoEmes realizes what he missed all these years, because he is experiencing it now in Gan Eden. It is both a tribute to his lomdus and tzidkus, and a viewpoint on his error. Nowhere did Fole Kahan say he sits in Gehenom, farkert - if he was in Gehenom, how would he know what he was missing?

What I see from your view of it as derision is a comment on yourself, that you take this episode as a personal attack on you.

Anonymous said...

"Imagine a brisker saying that the Baal Shem wishes he could learn R' Chaim . . . just to make a point."
Not only can I imagine it, I would say it myself (although he can learn Reb Chaim above as well, there is no loss or gain of ahavas or yiras hashem through it that must take place down here), just as Moshe Rabbeinu was jealous of Rabbi Akiva.

Anonymous said...

i think what the underlying problem is, is that misnagdim have an inferiority complex and feel threatened by the chassidim and their lack of 'shame' for being 'am ha'aratsim'- a result of not learning nigleh all day. and the chassidim have a superiority complex re the misnagdim that they would preffer to sit in the dark and deny themselves of chassidus and claim they have everything they need and don't need to expand and dabble in something new- that some 'g'dolim' and 'ba'aleu halachah' have found not to be apikurses, not only that but rather helpful. the proof is in the puding, aish in j'lem and elsewhere openly teach tanya. ohr someach in south africa, australia and the usa have tanya shiurim and these are mosdos at the 'cutting edge' of 'kiruv rechokim' (tongue in cheek) who have haskamos coming out of their toosh, for who they are and what they do.

and one more thing,
we find that a rebbe can be a rebbe for 10 or 1000,000 chassidim but there is no such thing as a gadol with a small following (at least while he is alive- acharei mos kedoshim emor. kenireh.) so i ask is it worth mesuring gadlus when the two competitors arent even playing the same sport?

Anonymous said...

To ma'aravah (11:35 AM)-

The Tzig hasn't replied as of yet, but if I may suggest [still not the makor, but the more exact phrase]- the Rebbe answered [re HIS titles on ppl in letters "אי"א.."], when asked, that I look at the person's potential -even if he is not an איש ירא אלקים as of yet.

Is that what you had in mind?

Anonymous said...

I think that to truly appreciate this, one must learn the Maamar "Chayiv Inish" from Torah Or.

There it explains that Torah is called Mashal Hakdamoni because the Torah learned here on earth is only a Moshal through which one can comprehend the higher levels of Torah which await the person in the world to come. That is why it says "Ashrei Mi Sheba L'Kan Im Talmudo Biyado" because only through a person's achievements in Torah in this world will they grasp higher levels of Ziv Hashechina in Olam Habah.

However, once a Neshoma arrives in Olam Habah, they cannot possibly make up for an Avodah that they missed in Olam Hazeh. That is why every Tzaddik is "Nikaveh M'Chupaso Shel Chaveiro," since one Tzaddik completed a certain level of Torah {Chupah} in this world and the other Tzaddik can no longer reach there.

So, being jealous of a little kid is not being jealous of the child themselves, but being jealous that that child has the opportunity in Olam Hazeh to be Misasek in Torah which this Tzaddik didn't merit to learn while he was here.

Anonymous said...

This is typical Lubavitch arrogance. They think that they have a monopoly on penimiyus hatayreh. They think that penimiyus hatayreh only equals Lubavitcher Chassidus.

Anonymous said...

14, this may be the internet and you are anonymous and all, but it helps if you actually make your point, instead of just banging the keyboard. Where is the example of this arrogance, where do they state that they believe they have a monopoly on penimiyus hatorah or that it only equals Chabad Chasidus?

Anonymous said...

>>You just assumed derision. Why not take it a sign of respect - that he sits in Gan Eden and is nehene miziv hashchina, and therefore now being in Olam HoEmes realizes what he missed all these years, because he is experiencing it now in Gan Eden. It is both a tribute to his lomdus and tzidkus, and a viewpoint on his error. Nowhere did Fole Kahan say he sits in Gehenom, farkert - if he was in Gehenom, how would he know what he was missing?

>>What I see from your view of it as derision is a comment on yourself, that you take this episode as a personal attack on you.

This is an incredible example of spin talk. Someone bring up a point as to how one should not be such an idealogue as to proclaim that gedolim are jealous of little children, a notion that arises from an unsupported--if not worse--assertion that chassidus is the pnimius of Torah--and you completely change not only the obvious and acknowledged substance of what Foyleh and the Rebbe (along with Tzig) were saying, but you state that this was a compliment!!! This is dishonest to the extreme. As far as my taking this personally is concerned, only I know what I think and feel, I am pretty sure you can acknowledge that when something offends you on a religious level, it does not neccessarily flow from a personal agenda.

>>i think what the underlying problem is, is that misnagdim have an inferiority complex and feel threatened by the chassidim and their lack of 'shame' for being 'am ha'aratsim'- a result of not learning nigleh all day.

This is not just simplistic, its patently untrue. Misnagdim are greater in nistar, too. They always were.

>>so i ask is it worth mesuring gadlus when the two competitors arent even playing the same sport?

The Chazon Ish had the same if not more followers than the Rebbe. Sorry to burst your bubble.

>>So, being jealous of a little kid is not being jealous of the child themselves, but being jealous that that child has the opportunity in Olam Hazeh to be Misasek in Torah which this Tzaddik didn't merit to learn while he was here.

Just to be clear, this means the Rebbe is jealous of not only every child, but also me, because I can learn now, and he can't? I am just making sure that we all agree with this. If this is the import of Foyle's words (it is not, his was an attack on someone who was not Chassidish), I would agree. Otherwise, what Foyleh did was to insult a Gadol Hador bifarhesya. It is unjustified and it was without provocation.

Anonymous said...

Lets put everything aside, What did the CI think about brisker derch halimud, look in his hagoas on Reb Chaim Halevi on Rambam, he even ridicules the name of rhe sefer.
Also look at his bitul for the mussar world in the censured Emuna Ubitochon of his.

Anonymous said...

To Hmmmm
Imagine brisker .....
I know they are saying it and not only on the Baal Shem... they say it even on geonim like Chasam Sofer and Minchas Chinuch, eventough the stupid briskers claim that they are the only ones that the Reb Chaim quotes

Anonymous said...

Lubavitchers
Why do you delude yourselves that anybody in the yeshiva world was shooken up by what was or was not said in Lubavitch about the C.I.?
Lubavitch is firmly entrenched 'mchutz lamachaneh', do you think the Yeshiva world is shaken up by what they think in the Mizrachi circles, or even what Rabbi J.B . Soloveitchik thought?
I'm not getting into the issue that was raised (which in my opinion is quite childish).

You also coveniently forget that at the time that this was said,Lubavitch was a small community, the Rebbe was 55 approx, relatively young and not even close in stature to the C.I. who was much older and the acknowledeged leader of Ultra Orthodoxy in Eretz Yisroel, so if anything people would have been 'shook up' at what was seen as an unseemly attack of a leading leader

Anonymous said...

Nemo,

Glad you learnt the Maamar. However, the loshon of the gemoro is "talmudo beyodo" rather than "chassidus beyodo", so, if anything, this maamar chazal is a rayo listor

Anonymous said...

pirem,

How right you are. Some people just don't know their place.

Anonymous said...

>>Lets put everything aside, What did the CI think about brisker derch halimud, look in his hagoas on Reb Chaim Halevi on Rambam, he even ridicules the name of rhe sefer.
Also look at his bitul for the mussar world in the censured Emuna Ubitochon of his.

Read: PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT AS FOYLEH WAS WRONG.

Anonymous said...

"Lubavitch is firmly entrenched 'mchutz lamachaneh'"

You don't suppose that more due to the fact that the Yeshivishe velt insists on redrawing that "machaneh" smaller and smaller as time goes on. In your post you write off RYBS. Your latter day "gedolim" have written off certain rabbis in their own communities for writing opinions that they could not possibly have read; R' Elyashiv doesn't know a word of English! Anyone who works for a living in a goyish omanus rather than learning is possul leShidduch. I can go on but I think the point is clear; the "P'sul" in Lubavitch is more due hashkafic gerrymandering than any really significant problems.

Anonymous said...

In the Kiryath Sefer world,
If rachmono litzlan you leave Kolel for a honest paying job, you are mchutz lemachne, certain shuls will not welcome you and seminars for you dauhter will not welcome you, but you are welcome to be a zevulon,
BTW, did anyone see Rav Stienmans psak that parents should not give purim money for there childrens melamdim since they are on a job and getting paid, instead all the money has to be channeled to yeshiva liet, typical litvishe monopoly on torah.

Anonymous said...

"Just to be clear, this means the Rebbe is jealous of not only every child, but also me, because I can learn now, and he can't?"
Considering that I said nothing about what he can or can't do now, rather about something the Chazon Ish never had the opportunity to experience while in Olam Hazeh, where it counts. Whatever you are learning now, the Rebbe already learned and can learn above, it makes no difference in Avodas Hashem.

In other words, when in doubt (and wrong), bluff and call it a spin machine?

Anonymous said...

pirim and exdentist John, considering the letters the Rebbe received, and the press attention then, you are way off base. Were we talking about spin machines? You operate a bad one.

Anonymous said...

Someone who stops to think about it, always asks a serious question. Why did misnagdim happen? Why did yiden "blew" all the giluim that the Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim brought?

In oylom hoemes those who "blew it", surely regret. But here they had a bechiro here, and they chose not to use the Chasidus.

Anonymous said...

to the chutz lemachaneh shtick:
you think lubavitch are chutz lemachaneh and your in, wait until the chumrah of the month comes out and suddenly you are chuts lemachaneh.
i am not a lubab, but it occurs to me that lubavitchers dont care to be outside your (for ever stringent) machaneh. they seem to have a bekius in nigleh and just follow halachah without all the "keeping up with the jonses" stuff- my gadol said this and my rosh yeshivah said that.

Anonymous said...

one thing that the rebbe did stand for was level headedness. he wanted the learning of nigleh- in a manner that would shine through in the litvishe velt, and chassidus so that the bitul would be there, and the chabadskers shouldnt lose their heads which they can do.
maamar hamuzgar:
when my chavrusahs grandfather was by reb moshe zt"l he opened a filing cabinet and showed him the chumros that the 'gedolim' wanted him to sign. to which r' moshe responded each time: "when you keep shulchan aruch properly i will sign these!"
now these were written by many who became gedolim after the passing of r' moshe and his calibre. i beleive that a number of gedolim and not the CI but more later heads, have enjoyed the freedom without the likes of r' moshe, r' shlomo zalman, or earlier reb tzvi pesach. level headed leaders!

Anonymous said...

>>Considering that I said nothing about what he can or can't do now, rather about something the Chazon Ish never had the opportunity to experience while in Olam Hazeh, where it counts. Whatever you are learning now, the Rebbe already learned and can learn above, it makes no difference in Avodas Hashem.

No he didn't. He has plenty to be jealous about. Once you say this about the CI, you can certainly say this about the Rebbe. I am certain the Rebbe did not touch many of the things I learned.

Anonymous said...

I would add that no one really contributed or answered any questions on this thread. It is clear that the comments made by Foyleh and the Rebbe entrenched them to the point where they thought without level headedness, and to this day, you and others place ideaology way above derech eretz and common sense. This is a shame. That comment about misnagdim blowing it is not merely factually incorrect--as the so called misnagdim (or Jews to be more accurate) were and are far greater in nigleh than Chassidim (sorry to burst your propoganda bubble). The CI was greater in Nistar than the Rebbe. The fact you keep to such memras which espouse such dishonesty and sinas chinam is your problem--your bechira--and you will regret it one day.

Anonymous said...

Realist,
Try and write in english, I don't get a word you say.
You said something about Lubab knowing 'nigleh', now young man, it's not pirem anymore, so please...Lubab don't even know 'chsides'. Nigleh they don't know and that I understand, if you don't learn you don't know, but, 'chsides' they do learn, so why don't they know anything about the subject??
About 'chumra of the month':Just so you should know, not eating ehat is known as 'cholov stam' is much more 'chumra of the month' than what the Lubab don't care about, for example sleeping in the sukka is a chiyuv gommur (medeoraysa, with exceptions)being careful to drink even water in the sukkah is more 'chumra of the month' (though it's mentioned in the mishna)than many other of the 'chumros' you don't understand.
Btw, the 'chumra of the month' of eating and even drinking in the sukka while its raining is not even a chumra, it's actually ossur and falls under 'torah chadosh meiti tetsei'

Anonymous said...

"[yadda yadda yadda] chiyuv gommur (medeoraysa, [yadda yadda yadda] 'chumra of the month'

Teaching your children a trade is a 'chiyuv med'oraisa' because your children will learn thievery otherwise (see the S"A Orach Chaim). Nevertheless, your so-called "gedolim" have placed you in this very position by forbidding you from working and only allowing your wife to assume a very limited level of earning power. Why? Chumrah of the month, kepeshutoi!

Kettle? It's Pot. You're black!

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:19.
Sorry to burst your kettle, but all the meshulochim, are coming to raise funds in Lakewood.It's a big place today, with many succesful yungerleit.Crown Heights is full of the very poor and some rich bigwigs who don't want to help them out.It goes without saying that very few meshulochim go there.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1.19
Where did you see the halocho you refrenced, in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim??
Guy, please do yourself a favour............

Anonymous said...

This - "I am certain the Rebbe did not touch many of the things I learned." + this - "The CI was greater in Nistar than the Rebbe." = a fool speaks.

Anonymous said...

pirem, thank you for continuing to open your mouth and let us know that you have nothing to say. Is that foam I see around your mouth?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Noch Pirem

the rich people in Lakewood is al apom ve'al chamosom of the Roshei Yeshivah there, who fume that their power is slowly but surely eroding, since the rich BaaleiBatim - who only came there for cheap housing and investment opportunities, not the Kotlers - could care less about the Ir HaTeyreh. So please don't boast about some rich Hungarians there, we know they have what it takes to make money.

Anonymous said...

>>This - "I am certain the Rebbe did not touch many of the things I learned." + this - "The CI was greater in Nistar than the Rebbe." = a fool speaks.

Hmm,

I guess the pack of wolves which raised you failed to teach you than when you have nothing to say, its better not to say anything. I sincerely feel for you and hope you will be able to think past the small minded, hate-filled chinuch you have recieved. One day, you too can be grown up. Until then, you can live in your fantastic world makes the Rebbe to make him appear greater than he actually was.

Anonymous said...

I'm amused by the Litvaks who make assumptions here on the level of knowledge the CI posessed, and their assumptions sound like what any Chassidishe kid would say about his Rebbe.

The CI's Nistar knowledge is open to debate. He didn't write much in those realms, and the letters don't show much more than your average Chassidishe Rebbe, so what's the Hechrech to say that he knew all of Toras HaNistar too? The childish stories we were told in Cheyder whereas he knew math and science from the Gemoroh is a figment of someone's creartive imagination, nothing less. If he didn't learn Toras Chabad he didn't know it, plain and simple, just like the Rebbe wouldn't know Reb Tzodek if he hadn't learned it. So please let's stop with the Guzmo'os and get down to brass tacks.

Anonymous said...

"Where did you see the halocho you refrenced"

Here yuh go, Bubba. Siman 156, S'if 2

"...Every man is required to teach his son a craft or how to run a business. If he doesn't it is as if he taught him robbery because in the end he will rob from others for a living..."

The latter part of this paragraph sounds like half of Monsey and BP if you ask me. Methinks it is YOU who needs the favor.

Anonymous said...

Fine; Brass Tacks: The Rebbe is jealous of any buchur who learns R' Tzadok. In fact, he is insanely jealous of yours truly.

Anonymous said...

JJ
What did the Frierdigeh Rebbe write about nigleh? Very little.Are we to assume, based on your logic with the C.I. that.......
Lubabs, it works both ways

Anonymous said...

That's the thing, JJ, they tried to weasel their way out of it before on this thread. I mentioned that they are trying to have the cake and it too. They don't care.

Anonymous said...

anon, that's the thing about your being deeply snagged - you don't realize that no one here has claimed that the FRs lomdus is greater than the CI, because we truly don't know. The same therefore applies to saying the CI knew more Toras HaNistar - you have no clue, because he never wrote or taught about it.

Daloi Shotim!

Anonymous said...

We know that simple people like FR was not greater than the gadol hador. I am sorry that you are such a shoteh, and so driven by an idealogy which promotes sinas chinam to see this.

Anonymous said...

Every time I hear or see "godol hador", the sickly sweet really bad song from Miami Boys Choir runs through my head - "The Godol Hador is (soooooomething)".

Et tu, Yerachmiel Begun? Have you been reduced to a cliche? So fell the Soviet Union.

Anonymous said...

Maybe something is wrong with your head? ;)

Anonymous said...

To the extent that you have tried to infiltrate it, yes. But I won't let you, Yerachmiel.

Anonymous said...

"I am sorry that you are such a shoteh, and so driven by an idealogy which promotes sinas chinam to see this. "

but respect for the FR you cant have coz he is a chabdsker? a simple man shame on you.
sinas chinom my rear.

Anonymous said...

anon 9:50
i suppose your definition of ahavas chinom is to love only those that have the same beleifs as you. because you dont seem to have much tolerance for other oppinions or gedolim such as the FR, who probably did more for US and world jewry than kotler, have a glance at other gedolim such as
r' weissmandl who dont aprove of your 'gedolim'.
get off your horse and open your eyes, you guys are not it!

Anonymous said...

>>but respect for the FR you cant have coz he is a chabdsker? a simple man shame on you.
sinas chinom my rear.

I did not say that I disapprove of him because he is a Chabadsker. I give a lot of money to Chabad, and I hae very good reason for it. I disapprove of his statements about the Chazon Ish, and your rather ridiculous assumption that he is equals with the gadol hador. The whole chasidus os the pnimius of Torah byline is not only unsupported and untrue, but, as I was saying (look at my statements and try not to obfuscate my intent) breeds sinas chinom. I did not disrepsect Foyleh either, I just stated that he was not the Chazon Ish's equal. Factual statements are not disrespectful. Of course, you can continue spewing forth the sinas chinam you learned, but, hey, I am not responsible for the fact that you are morally obtuse. No one on the other side says they are inherently superior because they learn X which is prima facie evidence of being "it" or the pnimius of Torah or Yidishkeit. That's utter nonsense. The CI did learn nistar, as did, and do, many other Litvishe greats.

Which gets to the next comment.

>>i suppose your definition of ahavas chinom is to love only those that have the same beleifs as you. because you dont seem to have much tolerance for other oppinions or gedolim such as the FR, who probably did more for US and world jewry than kotler, have a glance at other gedolim such as
r' weissmandl who dont aprove of your 'gedolim'.
get off your horse and open your eyes, you guys are not it!

Here we go again. Look at my statements. It is obvious you did not read them because you are just rehashing what I wrote. I did not write offensively about "others." I merely stated Foyleh went too far, that his statement is not only baseless, but the underlying notion is flawed and breeds sinas chinam. I added, with charecteristic respect and balance, that such a notion is not propounded by the other side on their children.

Not so you, of course. Calling someone by his last name was never something I, nor anyone else who shares my views. As I explained, my education did not advocate superiority, a chip on the shoulder, or sinas chinam. Yours, obviously, did.

Anonymous said...

Tzig, can you let us know somehow just how many different "anonymous" authors you have here?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I wish I knew, but I barely have time to write and moderate, you want me to follow all these anonymouses and see who they are?!

Anonymous said...

See the way the Ramban explains the chet ho'egel, and tell me if it is that different from Shoresh Mitzvas Hatfilo in Derech Mitzvosecho

dephender said...

"You also coveniently forget that at the time that this was said,Lubavitch was a small community, the Rebbe was 55 approx, relatively young and not even close in stature to the C.I. who was much older and the acknowledeged leader of Ultra Orthodoxy in Eretz Yisroel, so if anything people would have been 'shook up' at what was seen as an unseemly attack of a leading leader"

A Chutzpeh! The Rebbe was head and shoulders against R' Yeshaya Karelitz! If not for the titles that the Rebbe gave him...