Tuesday, February 13, 2007
Talk about a mental block
I sit and watch otherwise intelligent people, who know their limitations, sit on mentalblog and discuss matters that should be beyond their level of understanding. The same people who know enough in a time of need, when they cannot help themselves, to run to the Rebbe for help and that he be Mispalel for them now try and explain why this and this was done, and why such and such was chosen to run this and that institution. They also claim to know which nationality seemingly befits which position, whether a Russian is good for a Mazkir, and why certain people were chosen over others to come to America. I expect more from people belonging to a Moyach Chassidus like Chabad, these people should know better, especially the Mekushorim. After all, can anybody explain to me why the Rebbe would take an Israeli Yungerman born in Russia, striaght out of Kolel, and send him to Texas to Mekarev Jews? Wouldn't the college-educated Yankee be a better fit? How about a legally blind shloch with a hunchback and scraggly beard and have him build 10 Million dollar buildings one after another? Maybe the geniuses can make hay out of that. Until then let them put a sock in it.
listen the big problem I believe is not the Rebbe, in their opinion. It is, when they see the buffons who run Lubavitch, the idiots and small minded pin heads who are running us in the ground, who have nothing else on their minds but their own small turf wars and al api veal chamosi, I will win come high come low kind of atitudes which makes them wonder, how could the Rebbe do this to us.
ReplyDeleteIt takes an enormous amount of Emunas Tzadikim in what the Rebbe is/was to overcome the above mentioned obstacle.
At the conventions Krinsky the dim whit, and Kotlarsky the egotist, stand before the people like they're anything at all. They are bringing down the organization.
They not only have no leadership skills which in itself is a churba they are twisted individuals with complicated self serving agendas.
Unless there is a revolution in Chabad and order, din vechesbon and honesty is brought back, more articles will be in Haaretz, ynews and plenty other local newspapers destroying whatever is still left of the hard work Rabosainu Nesieinu has established over the years.
They're bringing down the organization? How?! At worst they're irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteShliach
ReplyDeleteI see you brought along your childish notions about Krinsky and Kotlarsky to your supposed Shlichus. That's a shame. Yehupitz is absloutely correct when he says that they're irrelevant at worst. K & K don't throw out Shluchim working for a "head Shliach," and for the most part have little connection to Shluchim in the field, at least Krinsky. Kotlarsky is more of a moderator and arbitrator and has done more to quell Machlokes amongst Shluchim than anybody else. I shudder to think where the system would be without him.
All that is totally beside the point. My comments were about bloggers sitting and scratching their posteriors, pontificating as to why the Rebbe sent so-and-so to Yenem ek velt and not my father or grandfather, and took so-and-so as a Mazkir.
Yehupitz,
ReplyDeleteThey are totally not, irrelevant. They have plenty of perceived illusionary clout they use for their own selfish purposes
Tzig,
I wish my statements were merely childish notions. and I'm not sure why you mention anything about . "K & K don't throw out Shluchim working for a "head Shliach,"
Krinsky and Kotlarsky are both personally involved in having Shluchim working under head Shluchim fired and that's a fact. ( New York, Italy, UK, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Florida just to name a few places ) They are in addition to the kum veaseh, as well both involved by default in the throwing out of shluchim who work for head shluchim. If you post a personal e-mail or better yet telephone number where you can be reached I'll give you at least 10 examples. at this point for the sake of confidentiality I will not give more concrete details of them coming in like the meat eaters they are, to benefit from the spoils of dirty work others do for them and for which, they are monetarily, generously rewarded.
They are very much relevant because they capitalize on the perceived or real successes of Shluchim by standing before them as supposedly the leader they are not, and when there are problems i.e. fights of different sorts they do nothing about them. so at the very least, by default, they contribute to the destruction and lack of seder in the organization they want everyone to think they are in control of.
If you stand before everyone to catch the spotlight, live up to the kovod you seek, or leave the bainkil and let others more capable bring leadership and direction to a falling apart moisad.
What they should be involved in, for one thing, is the firing of some of the head shluchim if you want to talk about throwing anyone out. but they would never do so because A, it's a buddy buddy system and B) they are gutless and short sighted individuals to take any position which requires any sort of sticking your neck out.
They have brought the organization down and it continues to spiral out of control, because just as I said they are gutless , spineless, selfish people. They stand for nothing else but themselves and that's what Tzemach eats his heart over in Boston.
Does that address your issue?
another disgruntled mushroom...nu nu.
ReplyDeleteShliach
ReplyDeleteMy point about you stands. You can blame Krinsky and Kotlarsky all you like, but they don't decide to throw somebody out. They get there at the end of the story, when the two people Al Assar decided not to get along. What happens every once in a big while in Bologna or some other place not withstanding. Questioning Krinsky's intelligence shows how not in touch you are, or simply do not know the man. Don't call him evil and dimwitted at the same time, it simply doesn't work.Most shluchim have nothing but the highest praise for Kotlarsky for the work he does for any shliach in need. The trouble makers will have nothing but complaints.
You make silly bombastic claims that sound like any other conspiracy theory out there. The fact that you can "relate" to Tzemach shows where your loyalties lie.
Herbicide
ReplyDeletewhat in opinion motivates these mushrooms? Aren't they the ones who supposedly, unlike the "head Shluchim" do their work Le'sheym Shomayim? they're not in it to bring their kids later and to make shamttes out of Yungeleit until their kids get there, right? so why are they at the forefront at this vendetta to bring down Lubavitch and to besmirch it publicly in every forum possible?
Without prejudice.
ReplyDeleteI have not studied the functioning of various Chabad houses across this great nation.
But it is clear to me that the success of Lubavitch in terms of fund raising which translates into fine buildings, slick Public relations, well appointed ofices and well groomed shlichim, does not translate into a mass succss in attracting Jew of all classes to Tore and Mitzvoth.
I am not a professional hater of Chabad work. Thus I will concede they have had a tad of succss in stopping intermarriage among a small category of Jews. On campus they have introduced a small percentage of Jews to Jewish ideas and rituals. And for that they deserve our thanks. No if and ors there.
Yes there have been some genuine Baale Teshuva who either remain in Lubavitch or wandered off to other Chugim.Nevertheless no shliach that I know of has made a revolution in terms of Tore and Mitzvoth in his parish.Places like New haven which am very familiar with have had a Chabad presence for over 50 years and is a dying community (non withstanding the importation of Chabad families from NYC) .That school hardly produced any graduates who remain religious except for several handfuls who came from MO backgrounds.I do not o you mean have really stopped intermarriage in their parioshes or even produced more than a single BT every year.
Now I will tread on shaky ground. Imagine if a colege educated rabbi with a real command of the Englsih language (not just the ability to shout) and with knowledge in psychology, the sopciology of the secular jewish community and or steeped in halocha directed these efforts. ?? Just imagine .
pray tell me of one Chabad parish in the US where areal revolution in Tore and Mitzvoth was accomplished ? Where intermarriage is a milso delo shechiach, where annualy doazens upon dozens of men and women become full scale BT's, where Torh study goes on in the nights.
Again I am unawarw of even one city in the US where this goal has even come close to have been met.
Perhaps Australia ia Lubavitch's best success story, but where has Chabad accomplished this here in Austin ? in S.Paul, in Cleveland, in Dallas, in Denver ? in Seattle, in Portland, in Albany ?
Think about it and you will ask yourselves does vbuilding a fine building with a fancy Mikveh transalte in bringing people into Tore uMItzvoth or does it indicate a very good fund raising apparatus ?Now I will go for my bullet proof vest. Get raedy ... fire !!
kurenitzer, you can drop the vest now. Your first statement belies your entire post: "the success of Lubavitch in terms of fund raising". Hundreds of shluchim are now howling with laughter as they check in with the latest debt collector after them.
ReplyDeleteThe rest is just as silly. There is a fire burning, and it has been burning for 50 years and more. We are trying to save Jews one by one. You have been influenced by Aish to see a "global picture", and you forget that the Reb Yid counts more than that.
Herbicide,
ReplyDeletehmmmm you must be Yudel Krinsky right??
That's all your intelligent remark deserves.
Tzig,
Herbicide make some silly statement and it already becomes fact for you? Besides can a mushroom have an opinion and be right? can a shliach make a statement that criticizes "the system" and still be a Shliach??
That (no honesty in dealing with issues) is a huge part of the problem.
I am surprised at your lack of honesty in discussing matters. You twist, add words to my statements, come to conclusions and voila, that's it.
Take what I said, compare it with what you said in my name, and see for yourself. It's all bichsav.
You asked why are they pontificating on certain subjects on Mental blog. I offered my opinion that it comes from a lack of respect towards the "system" which by all accounts and every Shliach agrees has MANY problems.
From there, there becomes conspiracy theories, and Shluchim throwing out other shluchim, and that I said Krinsky is Evil. What are you smoking?
I am happy you are already so quickly modeh bemiktzas when it comes to Italy that the vultures (K&K) come in at the end. So you ARE familiar with one of the cases I mentioned.
Why then do you say K&K have nothing to do with firing Shluchim when you know they Are very much part of it.
Krinsky was personally involved in the story in Italy (Gorelik is his mechutan) and the story there is connected to ONE of the stories in New York.
In the jungle there are all kinds of animals. Those who do the kill and those who come in later for the meat. Both are Chayos hasodeh not dealing like bnei Odom.
Is every complainer a "troublemaker". Can there not be any legitimate complaints? Kotlarsky is full of hot air, and again EVERY one on Shlichus knows that.
What about his fight regarding JLI and the break away from the Shlichus office and now Shemtovs need to "PROVE" himself with his birthright program. Kotlarsky, is part of the system that is broke,
and getting back to your original point, why people like Tzemach have issues with Chabad. and because I see his point does that make me a goy?
If we can see some legitimacy in someone criticism does that make me him, or maybe not close minded to the problems that are clearly becoming worse and worse.
I'm happy you are open minded at least to allow for this discussion, something that no Shliach has a venue to discuss, because he would get FIRED, BY K&K.
(-:
i'm not sure whether a mushroom can have an opinion, but i love a mushroom with onion, preferably fried or grilled.
ReplyDeleteFry him! Fry him!
ReplyDeleteI am glad I hit home so hard that you have nothing to say.
Tzig's point to you was that they are irrelevant, which hasn't changed. The real issue with your point is that you only have one view. You see no good in them or in any of the leadership. Tzemach does not have that, and Tzig does not have that. They can honestly state what they think is corrupt with the system, and what they think works. I may agree with Tzig and disagree with Tzemach, but he bears listening to (and posting about) because he can see from both sides of the fence, although he is wrong.
Your post doesn't earn attention, until you can write the other side of the coin as well.
Hmmm ,
ReplyDeleteIs now calling Kurenitzer silly.
Listen you young twerp, if you ever know a houndreth of what Kurenitzer knows about Chabad you should be happy.
Go wipe the milk off your lips
My intention in my post was not to get into personalities.
ReplyDeleteBut in the 1950's the Conservative Movement undertook a massive building campaign . In most American towns and cities lavish structures and sanctuaries were built and dedicated with pomp.
This was supposed to mean that Conservative Judaism and their clergy were the gold standard of American Judaism.
Now 40 years later all realize that the Conservative movement is empty. Nice buildings, well paid clergy , but no learning , observance etc.
All one hears from Chabad in the field is a catolog of new expensive and fancy buildings. We hear of programming of lectures on the Kabbolah of family, the kabbolah of Money the kabbolah of babay carriages.
But again in which city ot town in the US has Chabad acheived the Chabad revolution? In which city have they been that successful that they are no longer needed ??
And if they have not been successful, how can we say that after 50 years of work and failure , that this is the Messianic or pre messianic era ????
Where is there the ciy where Intermarriage is down to less than 10%. Where is the college or university community where dating a non Jew is unheard of. In which Shliach's parish is there Torah learning by hundreds of Jews nightly.IN which city are kosher eateries blossoming (besides Teaneck)
As I mentioned in my previous post, in many cities Lubavitch has been hard at work for well over 50 years and the COMMUNAL acheivements are ZERO. Of course the re has been much individual impact on some Jews.And I give them credit and Kudos for this work. But lets not exxagerate.
Imagine if Chabad had spiritual, intellectual, caring people in many shlichus posts instead of hustlers, fund raisers and PR men.It would also help if some of the early Chabad shluchim had some educational background or instinct. "Layder: that is still the case in certain Chabad schools. Imagine if a Chabad shliach could relate to local Jews (religious, secular etc) in a I-Thou manner rather than speaking to them from the mountain or just being interested in their check book.By no means am i saying that there are not effective caring Chabad people and I have been fortunate to meeting some myself. But all too often the local reps have morphed into PR men focusing inon MONEY.
In most communities , Chabad is interested in attracting friends and supporters not to amke people frum. What is a friend of Chabad ? Is he someone who only accepts the rebbe as a spiritual advisor but not a halachic master or does he only daven Nusach Ari, but wear regular Tefillin. A friend of chabad is a financial supporter of chabad !!
a\Although i am not an expert in the financial state of the shlichim (shluchim), most that I know who run their own franchise are doing very well in the area of gashmiyuth. Most live much better than their families in CH or Montreal.That may even be an impetus to go on shlichus. After all in yehupetz, they are called rav they live well, they are accorded kavod.Supervision opportunities abound as do chaplaincy posts for the fire dept , Police dpt , etc all of which together have less than 1 Jew. What would they get in CH a melamdus in Ohelei Menachem ?
All I have suggested is that perhaps shluchim change their stress. Perhaps adding some real varemkayt rather than warmth generated by a whisky bottle or fat check would go a long way.
Shlichus ought not be akin to running a car lot or Nielsen ratings. Who cares how many people cross the threshold, the question is quality not quantity.Many American Jews would appreciate an old shul as much or more than an ultra modern building .Believe me i would welcome thr day some real varemkayt and genuine dibbuk chaverim was the priority in shlichus.
Kurenitzer
ReplyDeleteI would go out on a limb here and say you haven't been out of town much. New Haven, yes, but not much anywhere else. People who come back from visiting towns with active Shluchim come back mightily impressed from what they see. They see families of baalei tshivah, not with scraggly beards and sheitlach necessarily, but modern families of professionals who knew nothing of Yiddishkeit a few years ago and now lead full Torah lives. They don't move to New York like they used to, they either stick around or move to a nearby big city.
No shliach builds a building for no reason if he has nobody to fill it with. You need to be out of your mind to go into extreme debt and worry your head off each month where the money will come from.
You sit and pass judgement on young men who who seem to be implying would have little else to do so they go and have a good time in Siberia on shlichus. Yet, I would guess that you have little knowledge of what it means to actually be out there all year with little money, dealing with people who think you're there to serve them at all times of the day and night.
We're not here to judge the "productivity" of shluchim. The fact that assimilation is as strong as ever is a testament to how difficult it is reach a Yiddishe Neshomah that is lost in She'ol Tachtis, not to the failure of a shliach.
You owe every shliach an apology.
yekusiel, do you insist on having nothing to say? Have you been snagged?
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how many people come here and elsewhere with not a single statistic, not a single study done, yet post their opinions as fact. Let's put kurenitzer in his place: It is his opinion.
Now for my opinion, which is of course reality (I can't follow his example?!):
There are shluchim out there who are not succesful fundraisers, who simply go into debt to accomplish what they need to.
There are shluchim out there who spend more of their time than I think they can afford with people on the fringe.
And one important fact kurenizter seems to not notice, that when shluchim have large buildings, they are generally filled with people.
Productivity is the machlah of Aish. How many people, how many buildings, how much money brought in, how many seats in Bes Medrash filled. We have no statistics. We will keep on fighting the war against Golus until Moshiach comes. If your point is that the war is nowhere near won, point well taken - shluchim will continue to battle on.
You have no point unless you want to begin discussing either properly researched statistics, or case by case. Until then, you are only expressing your frustration or worse - and why should anyone be Dan Lekaf Zchus on your motives when you trash an entire body of Chassidim?
There are (just for the sake of limud zechus) many Shluchim trying very hard at their "Jobs". and the Job IS a very hard one. It's not easy changing a life around, just ask weight watchers and all the AA NA uchedoimeh groups. So Every single Jew brought closer to Yiddishkeit is a tremendous accomplishment. Unlike Aish uchedoimeh who for the most part deal with people already interested in Judaism, Chabad out there in the field is awakening the interest, sparking the dimmed embers of souls who have no idea there is a fire inside, that needs stoking.
ReplyDeleteThat having been said there has certainly become a shift in what's considered the standard for success. It's all about PR and big buildings as THE priority. Vayivnu heicholois vayishkach Elkah oisaihu. Its all about who you know and which bigger name you're associated with. Gone are the days that avoidas hatefillah and being a genuine chassidsheh guy really matters. Within Chabad "system" alone that's considered not with it.and don't tell me that's not true.
A Shliach who is a mehader, goes lifnim meshuras hadin, a bit involved in Halachah is outdated. Someone who is dressed well, raises lots of money, can have a good discussion on the latest Rush Limbaugh or Dr. Laura is THE guy He is with it.
Look at how many Shluchim these days have side jobs. Wether it's Kashrus, day trading, real estate, thrift shops, actual businesses on the side. How can you be doing your "job" when 3/4 of the time or more is spent on these other endeavors. The times are changing, unfortunately , yeridas hadoirois and "leadership" itself lives up to this degradation of standards.
current Chabads needs new leaders because the current "leaders" are no leaders at all. and you can refer to my earlier posts. We need new leaders for the Organization. The current ones have failed us. They are in Cherem. How much better can you get?
I know Chassidus Chabad is the best derech in avoidas Hashem, However I see more of the "people" using the name Chabad than living up to the standards of Chabad.
Shliach
ReplyDeletefor a moment there you were making sense and then you switched back to the "blame Krinsky mode." I was sorry to see that.
1) Standards of success are not set by Krinsky and Kotlarsky. They are set by childish shluchim and the internet sites that report them. What they do say is that either the shliach worked hard to raise the money because he needed the building to be able to accomodate his people, or he was handed the money by some G'vir. Either way most people would say that the Rebbe had a strong hand in it. The people I see being "honored" by K&K are either old timers like Sudak and Shemtov, or a youngster in an interesting location. I fail to see building builders being held up on a pedestal, but a building is an easy way to show success. It's done quickly and all you need is a picture, not a million words.
2) Do Krinsky and Kotlarsky encourage shluchim to become day traders and real estate agents? I'm not sure where you get this information from, but most shluchim have little time for second jobs. Some do because their Jews left the city in droves due to a security issue etc. Others have little to do during the week because of their clientele, so they work a bit. The Rebbe did not condone it, so we must say that these people do it on their own.
3) The level of Avodah of Shluchim is now also K&K's fault? are you kidding me? Do Nachman Shapiro and Co. in OT have nothing to do with that? Or are they immune from criticism because they're Fun dayn Partei?
"That having been said there has certainly become a shift in what's considered the standard for success. It's all about PR and big buildings as THE priority."
ReplyDeleteThe question is, where do you see this shift? There are no awards handed out for big buildings, no honorable mentions, in fact there is no kovod given to a Shliach for his accomplishments, and not only was there never - the Rebbe's only response was to demand more.
Kashrus is not a side job, it is one of the Mivtzoim. I do not know of any Shluchim in any of the side jobs you mention.
Do you know what Shluchim do in private? They make fun of the PR they have to generate and the easy press involvement.
Tzig, Hmmmm, whoever you are
ReplyDeleteit's obvious to me you have no idea what goes on, on Shlichus. I will say, It's not your fault since you are a product of the PR "all" the Shluchim make fun of "privately" so you think everything is hunky dory and to your credit you try and stick up for it.
Asking me if I know what goes on privately on Shlichus is like asking the Husband how do you know what goes on privately in your bedroom. My friend, it's my bedroom and I know.
Since when where Shluchim sent out to town A, to fly all over the United States and many times the world to visit food manufacturing plants, deal with goyim to check for ingredients so the OK can make millions of dollars.
You think the Rebbe sends people to a town "to conquer it" and the Shliach will accomplish that goal while making serious money in other States dealing with goyim?? who are we kidding.
Apart from the fact that there are clear letters from the Rebbe saying a Shliach should completely be in his Shlichus and NOT take any other jobs.
Listen we're getting way off your original subject. The subject I was addressing was the very real disgust there is towards many of the guys who purport to represent the Rebbe and bring shame to the Rebbe.
Ma zaroi bachaim af hu bachaim. when zaroi don't act as they should it's no wonder others will find fault in the person these shameful people claim to represent.
I think that's a fairly true statement YOU can agree with.
if you want to dedicate another blog or a special discussion on the shame Krinsky and Kotlarsky are bringing to the Chabad Organization directly and indirectly I know your head will spin from such giluim of corruption, dealings of nepotism, dishonesty, back room dealings etc. Trust me it stinks to high heaven.
We need new leaders. I know, you like me repeating this. They have brought only shame and dishonor to the good name of Chabad.
A quick example. There are many fights (amongst Shluchim) going on right now that have reached the local newspapers. "leadership" in ever single case either fueled directly this Chilul Hashem or could have easily avoided it.
That's how "leadership" is destroying the good name of Chabad and they could care less. it's like they have farshtopteh heads.
shliach, whoever you are - when you are willing to discuss case by case both those situations where leadership, shluchim and Ama Debar screwed up - AND those places where they performed up to par and beyond, you will be worth something.
ReplyDeleteThere is only one obvious thing here: You have an agenda about Shlichus and leadership.
Tzig has an agenda, to defend Lubavitch. The only difference is that he uses honesty to accomplish it.
And I thought having an 'agenda' and 'honesty' are contradictions.That is till I got to know 'hmmm'
ReplyDeleteYou give Lubab a bad name.
conk, I am sure you had NOTHING against Lubavitch until you got here.
ReplyDeleteNo, having an agenda and being truthful are not mutually exclusive. Use your head. MADD has an agenda against drunk driving, and they use true statistics to prove it. Global warming consensusists have an agenda, and tailor the facts to fit their agenda. Both derachim are possible. Tzig and Tzemach use one, shliach uses another.
The most foolish, self serving nonsense I have ever heard.That's what happens when you have an 'agenda'
ReplyDeleteZconkas
ReplyDeleteGot something to say then say it. Statements like the one you made above are worthless until then.
No, no, Tzig, didn't you learn in Yeshivah? The only way to truly freg up is to call the other person foolish and their opinion nonsense.
ReplyDelete