(Professor M Friedman, Photo by Bar-Ilan University via AJHistory)
Trying retrace the Rebbe's steps
You've seen it before, Menachem Friedman telling us how he traced the Rebbe's steps in Berlin and Paris. This is in more detail, including the story of Mendel and Shayne Horenstein, the Rebbetzin's younger sister and BIL. I'm not sure though why this was published now.
UPDATE:
I see that Ariel Sokolovsky the Elokist is to blame for this, since "research" needed to be done about the Chabad movement that Ariel claims to represent. He's now in Portland, Oregon and claims to be THE Chabad presence there, although there has been Chabad there for 30 years or more. That's just great. His presence and activities there warranted this response from Rabbi Moshe Wilhelm of Chabad of Oregon:
STATEMENT FROM CHABAD-LUBAVITCH OF OREGON:
We of Chabad-Lubavitch of Oregon were shocked to read about the beliefs of
Ariel Sokolovsky in the Haaretz Newspaper. His beliefs are heretical and
anathema to Torah. Ariel Sokolovsky has no position in the Chabad Lubavitch movement. He is not a rabbi certified by our movement. He cannot possibly be described as a Chabad activist. He acts in numerous ways in complete contradiction of the Shulchan Aruch- The Code of Jewish Law.His blasphemous blog is his own private initiative, just as his concubine blog that advocates ideas inimical to Torah and Jewish Tradition. His blog is not part of the Chabad web system. The statement by Haaretz that it is a Chabad website false. We strongly protest any assertion that he has any connection to the
Chabad-Lubavitch movement.
Rabbi Moshe Wilhem
Regional Director
Chabad-Lubavitch of Oregon
Ariel's tactics are chronicled in This HaAretz online article. So Friedman shared all his findings about the Rebbe and his formal education, his grades, and his choice of headgear. It seems like when someone's down everybody jumps at his chance to get another kick in while the guy's still down.
Hirshel, I expect Tzemach to link this rubbish, not the anti-tzemach. So, what, pray-tell, was your interest in posting this?
ReplyDeleteFWIW, Soko has been a one man freakshow ever since his days in Boston where he ran a website called "Boston Chabad"; an obvious web squatting on "Chabad of Boston". That the Leitzanim at Am Ha'aretz, Idiot Aharonot or anywhere else pick up on his nuttery should surprise nobody. They've got papers to sell and this is a bleeding lede, dammit!
ReplyDeleteMy interest in posting this is as follows:
ReplyDelete1) to show that there was an immediate condemnation to his drivel.
2) to vent. You should see the comments to the article in Haaretz, it's frightening what average non-"Snag" people think of Chabad due to articles like these.
OK boys, so what's your version? How do you interpret the data?
ReplyDeleteSweeping everything under the rug used to work back in the day, but it dosent work forever. If you dont deral with the facts, you'll end up with nuts, idots and losers only. So, what's the thinking man's response?
"what's the thinking man's response?"
ReplyDeleteMar Friedman compiles Soko's bloviating tomfoolery, unverifiable 3rd person reports, anonymous man-on-the-street interviews and a smattering of some facts (with some questionable editorial backlighting) and leavens the resulting miasma into a "story". It's just that; a story, a polemical proof by assertion, or, if you will, a propaganda piece. Having been around the ChaBaD world for the past few decades all I can say is he must be describing a very different community than the one I know.
There is nothing here for a "thinking man" to answer since it is not designed for response. Merely "red meat" for the true-believers.
"it's frightening what average non-"Snag" people think of Chabad due to articles like these."
The comments to the article look like the typical "snag" responses to me (with a few Vabalninkas Masmid references thrown on for good measure). Most non-"snag" folks out there are aware of the controversy and, I think, are able to sift out the P'soles in this mixture.
Claims made in the Haaretz article are as truthful as these
ReplyDeleteNew book (by Israeli professor no less) says Jews "may" have murdered Christain children in response to the Crusades......
The reporter then "finds" more people in 770 saying the same thing as Ariel Sokolovsky! wow! The mainstream is just covering up some dark secret. Hey everybody, all Chabadniks believe the Rebbe is alive, is the Messiah, is G-d, is the Messiah-G-d, is better than G-d, and will be G-d when Messiah (himself) comes!
Rabbi Shach was right all along, and this article proves it! They're not really Jews, right Harry?
Harry Maryles doesn't disappoint the haters
ReplyDeleteI guess as long as he blogs he'll have material, since Chabad is around to provide him with what to write about.
I doubt it, but is it the same Mordechai Friedman in the Protocols of the Seforim case; whom B.G. used for the other side?
ReplyDeleteHe seems much more learned than this one..
The article was very fragmented, and I didn't get a clear picture what it is that Friedman feels he accomplished after spending all that time and money traveling around Europe.
ReplyDeleteHis wife travelled with him (at least on one of his trips) so perhaps he just needed an excuse to write off his vacation as a work-related expense
What is not true about Friedmans research? The story sounds very plausible and it's going to be published in a book.
ReplyDeleteThe story about Mendel Horenstein not having a beard(yeah, shaving)is clearly shown by a picture of Mendel, Shayna and Mendels sister, seen in Deutchs book and on the net.
I also believe that Mendel Horenstein attended college in Warsaw as Friedman claims.
What I don't get is how the Lubavitcher are always criticising others, and, the most unbelievable part, is that the previous Rebbe wrote a very, very strong letter against anybody from a Lubavitcher backround who shaves
I'm a bit confused here... what is ground-breaking in this article? Is there anyone even minimally interested in Lubavitch that doesn’t know the facts here?
ReplyDeleteAnd the fact that Mendel wasn't a chassidishe yungerman proves what? Is relevent how? The Rebbeim weren't overjoyed about this, but that was they it was - so? That means that Previous Rebbe can't maintain his (correct) position regarding beards, etc????
Why did he take a bochur without a beard??
ReplyDeleteThis was not talmid of R'Shimon Shkop nor of the Mir, where bochurim shaved.This was a grandson of Rash'b and son in law?
Before you crticize anyone, think.
Btw, if you saw what the Rayat'z write about somebody with a chasidishe backround who shaves(and kol shekein an aynikel)you would be pretty surprised
This may be hard for the Snags-I-am of the world to believe, but the Frierdige Rebbe spared nobody when criticizing. This means that whatever he said about boys from Chassidishe backgrounds shaving(which was not censored to "protect" him) he applied to his own son-in-law and grandson! (Yes, that Grandson....) I would not surprised if the actual words were intended for them specifically.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, Reb Mendel Hornstein had a beard when he became the chasan hamelech. I heard this this many times from the Neched haMelech.
ReplyDeleteHe also obtained hateres Horoah prior to the marriage.
While the Neched had a trimmed beard, he was bearded all his life and I presume had a longer beard when his Zaide ws in this world.Reb Mendel's father was a Gvirishe kind , not froma chabad family, the Neched was not very fond of the elter feter as a Chacham , he was a simple man, so what do you expect of his children ?
There are more important things than beards too.
Menachem Friedman "very plausible"? Only if you have been deeply snagged.
ReplyDeleteMelech?
ReplyDeleteKing of England? Tonga?
Psol
ReplyDeleteמאן מלכי רבנן
Kurenitzer:
in the pics that have the Neched HaMelech behind his Zeide when he arrived in America to stay he seems to be clean-shaven, his face seems very, very smooth. I doubt that at 17 he wouldn't have some hair on his face.
Snagged-I-Am
ReplyDeleteMendel was an Eynikel of the Rebbe MaHarash, not the Rashab. His mother was the Rebbe Rashab's sister.
The pictures show a Neched about 17 years old. Given his father's blond complexion it is possible , he was not a hairy type. I do not know.But I can say that Reb Mendel Horenstein had a beard upon marriage.And he completed rabinic studies.
ReplyDeleteMelech ... Yechi HaMelech !And please give me a break.
As someone wrote here, the Rayaatz stood his ground about beards. perhaps some around him did not have them , but so what he still stood his ground. When my father A"h had his first yechidus in Postov(Vilna gebernye) in the 1930's the Rebbe's first question after ver bist du was vie (how not why) nemt st du arop di bord ?
Tzig, that picture is frightening. I would not want to meet the man in a dark alley.
ReplyDeletewell, Hmmm, that's an Israeli professor for you. That's all Google images had to offer.
ReplyDeleteIt's quite probable that the frierdiker rebbe had more nachas from having a clean-shaven Rabbi Horenstein as a son-in-law than he ever would have had, had his daughter married a farbisiner sonei yisroel, r"l
ReplyDeletesuch as the people who delight on posting hateful personal comments on this blog
ReplyDeleteIt's quite possible that the Frierdige Rebbe had more from the youngest son-in-law without the beard than from the oldest one with the beard. Vd"l.
ReplyDeleteTzig
ReplyDeleteYou are right about Mendel Horenstein being an aynikel of the Rebbe Mahara'sh, my pleitas hakolmus,as the Rayat'z was a ben yochid.
Hmmm
What about the research of Friedman is implausible?
Please raise youe level of debate, btw, your cynical one liners are childish and tiresome
Let those who were murdered in Treblinka rest in peace.
ReplyDeleteHT,the low caliber of comments on your blog are boring and frustrating to read. While you raise complex relevant and interesting topics such as this one, I am astounded at the adolescent level of so many of comments.
ReplyDeleteI am confused. All my Chabad life I was told the Rebbe studied in the Sorbone in Paris, now I read all these 'historians' dispute that. Did he or didn't he? Can this be verified?
B"H
ReplyDeleteHave you seen the Hutzpah this "Rabbi Sokolovsky" and or or his backers have:
Google Ad:
Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky
Responds to condemnation by
R. Wilhelm Chabad of Oregon Inc.
moshiachtv.blogspot.com
is now running all over Google seraches related to anything Chabad, Moshiach related Chabad Oregon, Chabad Portland even the rival shaliach's names
and the blogs and sites that have google ads.
You got to admire the guts he has. It seems the shaliach has removed the condemnation letter from ChabadOregon.com few minutes after the response was posted on the major J-blogs and the Google campaign has started.
Not to blow a comming attraction, but I am aware of documents confirming the Rebbe's attendance at the Sorbonne as well (which is not a stira to his training at ESTP). But other than some historical curiosity, who cares anyway?
ReplyDeletewell, CE, you blew it. What can you share with us, and where does this information come from? Out with it!
ReplyDeleteYa gotta wait... sorry, It's not my news to break - I can just hint.
ReplyDeleteWhy would I trust a guy who made it his life's mission to make sure evrything Chabad claimed about the Rebbe is true? The man is not a Lubavitcher, learned in Mizrachi affiliated schools, and teaches at Bar-Ilan. What reason does he have other than to try and "expose?" Why is he any different than Shimmy Deutsch, or that other guy, what's his name, Erlich from Brooklyn College, another historian worth a Makkeh. He's also in it for the accuracy, right?
ReplyDeleteCE,
ReplyDeleteHow long is it going to take for volume 3 to come out?
Tzig:
ReplyDeleteYour definition of 'historical' accuracy is 'what you want to hear'.
When will you pass that infant stage?
You are just like those Chabadskers with the long white beards wearing the colorful, childish kippahs.Grow up won't you?
You still believe that Moshe the Alter Rebbes son did not shmad zech?That Mendel Horenstein was a university boy, without a beard, and not a Y.U. of today, more like a kid from Willy, who cuts his beard and peyos and lives in a goyishe neighborhood in a goyishe city.
You are either a naive person or a proffesional brainwasher who knows the truth but wants to trap more naive souls to the 'cause'.
N.B.You have tried to whitewash Ariel Sokolvsky as not representing Lubavitchers, blah, blah.It won't help you at all, he is getting his message out very well.Haaretz should have reported on other 'rabbis' souch as Milchtein Lubab of Milwaukee, who has a rebbegd Chabad house.
P.S.If any proof that the Rebbe attended Sorbonne comes out, something highly unlikely, I shall be the first to admit it.I want to know the TRUTH, not an agenda based, Harry Potter like 'truth'
'Why would I trust a guy who made it his life's mission to make sure evrything Chabad claimed about the Rebbe is true? '
ReplyDeleteYour comment shows such a basic lack of understanding of what a historian job is.You are not supposed to 'trust' an historian, he is supposed to make his case!!!
If, Friedman has the documentation, what more is there to say??
I have not seen his documentation, but it's highly likely that it's true.What's earthbreaking about it?
Did we not know that the Rebbe was hanging out in Berlin and Paris.?Did we not know that Mendel Horenstein was not exactly a Tomchei Temimim bochur in Otvock?
But 'you don't trust him'You do trust a fairy tale book which will remain unnamed, that anybody with half abrain knows is a fabrication, meant to teack young kids some lessons in life.You use that as a 'history' book.How can you be argued with.?
Whats the difference as to which Parisian schools the rebbe attended.
ReplyDeleteNo one I know is arguing that he did not go to college. He certainly did. Most of Friedman's materials are lifted from Larger Than Life.
Deutsch has researched part 3 concerning the rebbe's years in France and I have seen some of the raw research. teh Rebbe comes out ahead of the game. he is frum, proud (does not concede anything to the Akum teachers) and did not associate with the goyim there socially. He skipped his Shabbes classes and tests. All this applies to the Hornstein son in law as well. Of course there are issues , but Friedman proves nothing except that " an electrician " ..can be a rebbe and a sh... can be an academic !
Boropark
ReplyDeletelay off the Red Bull drinks for a minute please. Where did you learn the definition of historian exactly, in Krasne Cheyder?
The point is that although we know that the Rebbe spent time (Hutner and hung out) in Paris and Berlin The Rebbe was married and as is agreed to by all, behaved like a Chassidisher Yungerman, and then some. These people, by supplying us with snippets of where the Rebbe lived, and who else lived there, imply again and again that Chas Vesholom something was amiss in the Rebbe's behavior. They, of course, just assume because that's what shmucks like them would do were they away from home in Paris or Berlin.
It's for reasons like that, and the general glee displayed in their findings, and their general lack of fear of heaven that I doubt their findings about Tzaddikim, just like you would doubt the criticism of the Belzer Rov zt"l by a Freie historian.
Shulem Weiss learned in Satmar and supported them to his dying day, let's blame them for his sexual escapades. And while we're at it let's blame Yushke's Rebbe for teaching him.
ReplyDeleteShulem Weiss is alive and well
ReplyDeleteYashekes rebbe was man enough to blame himself, genius.
ReplyDelete'agreed by all'
ReplyDeleteSo now you are a mind reader, too?
You see Kurenitzer, you're the last of the Mohicans here, you can be objective about a person and not assume things about him just because it may serve your agenda. That good quality ceased to exist.
ReplyDeleteBoroPark here is under the influence of the libels he was made to believe in Cheder in BoroPark or Wiliamsburg, that's why he identifies with the idea of living in a non-frum neighborhood. He would do it but he just doesn't have the guts, so he criticizes others who did, but for totally different reasons, not for the reasons he would do it.
People like BoroPark believe in others what they would've done, because that's how they identify people, through their own scope. If I would move into a non_jewish neighborhood just to be rid of my worries that people will see me sin then all others who move there must be there for the same reason.
That's why hundreds of thousands of Yiddishe kindelach have been taught to hate and degrade the Rebbe, because of the insecurities and misdeeds of their teachers. The saddest part is that these people will be our future rabbonim and layleaders.
I'd like to add, that nowhere did I see any 'glee' in Friedmans interview.In fact the reason Friedman gives for his passion to research the Rebbes biography, was that he saw the rebbe as a role model when he was a kid in yeshiva high school, a man of Torah and science.
ReplyDeleteBut again, anybody who tells a story you don't want to hear is a 'hater'
Btw, tell your 'friend' runamok, to read articles before he 'says' anything:The Friedman interview has nothing to do with Sokolovsky, but as usual him and his ilk don't 'nead' to read the article before they spew the childish rants
Tzig
ReplyDeleteI have passed the stage that my thinking is based on my chaider rebbes prism.I try and be honest, and can tell you that only upon getting to know the Lubavitcher well did I realize what an odom godol and 'chochom odif menuvi' the man you derisively call the 'Vaboylniker'
Btw, if you really want to know, in my chayder and childhood, Lubavitcher were totally not an issue, they were so far from our world that they were not mentioned pro or con
What a prism to see things from, the Vaboylniker. And you say you "graduated" to that? Isn't graduation by definition a step up?nu, nu.
ReplyDeleteThe only one who warned about where Lubavitch was headed was Harav Shach, every word that that he said has been borne out, it's a pity that when your own people worship ovodeh zorah you you are not bothered and shocked.After all it 'only' the Rebbe they are worshipping.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's time you graduated to some analytical thinking
Every word Shach said was borne out? Does that mean we will be in Golus for another 1900 years?! R"L!
ReplyDeleteSince when does 13th Avenue produce analytical thinking? Good eating, yes, but thinking?
"Harav Shach"
ReplyDeleteWhose "chassidim" today throw firebombs at rival maggidei shiur. I'll take a million Sokos over those nutballs anyday.
Having read Deutsch's book some time ago - I have yet to hear, do true Chabadniks claim that it is incorrect?
ReplyDeleteDid the rebbetzen not cover her hair for many years? (Others say that she was known to wear pants/slacks ! Can anyone confirm or deny? Also that she smoked?
Did the rebbe study at Sorbonne or was it actually at some 3rd rate trade school.
Has anyone published refutations on Deutsch (and now Friedman)?
Is Deuthsc going on with his project?
Do you realise that that copies of his book are for sale at up to $350 !! see http://tinyurl.com/2k5tgw
It is incorrect - the Rebbetzin did not uncover her hair, did not wear slacks, did not smoke (although the Rebbe did, and she shared a shot of Benedictine with the Rebbe), and the Rebbe studied at both, although only officially and graduating from one (not a third rate school, but a well-rated technical school).
ReplyDeleteRefutations of his book per se have not been published because his book was not widely available, and much of it is obvious nonsense (in the sense that he has no source for it), but Rabbi Kaminetsky has published some articles, as have others.
Deutschs books have long been debunked, by the impartial 'historians' such as Yudel Krinchik, Hirshel Tzig and Hmmm.
ReplyDeleteWho would you rather trust, a book with backed up facts or some anonymous drivelers on the net with no 'agenda'.Hmmm, tough choice
Bad stutter?
ReplyDeleteMost of SSD's books are full of garbage, unimportant facts about the Rebbe's 3rd cousins and Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik's wife's brother. Very important facts, right? and "damning" evidence about the Rebbe, right? suuuuuure.
ReplyDeleteThen this genius comes along, and we're supposed to believe what? That just because they lived in a non-Jewish neighborhood they did what? And this is supposed to be history? unbiased at that? I've read and re-read the Haaretz article and I see nothing but attacks against Lubavitchers for belioeveing that their Rebbe was a righteous man.
Menachem Friedman: go snag yourself.
"Whose "chassidim" today throw firebombs at rival maggidei shiur. I'll take a million Sokos over those nutballs anyday."
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that current day CHABAD really has a high tolorance for Avoda Zorah if the writer of these lines really means it.
"Having read Deutsch's book some time ago - I have yet to hear, do true Chabadniks claim that it is incorrect?
ReplyDeleteDid the rebbetzen not cover her hair for many years? (Others say that she was known to wear pants/slacks ! Can anyone confirm or deny? Also that she smoked?"
The Rebbetzin did not wear pants or slacks, or uncover her hair. She was a very modest women, even there, acorrding to the testimony of those WHO KNEW HER.
"Did the rebbe study at Sorbonne or was it actually at some 3rd rate trade school."
The Rebbe definitly did study there, according to the testimony of his classmates (Reitzer and another guy). Then he moved on to ESTP, a post-graduate program in the suburbs of Paris, where he studied engineering. We don't know if the Rebbe graduated, due to the fact that many of the Sorbonne records were burned in a fire later in the decade.
Thanks for the revisionist history, Chabad Historian. When I was younger, it was always "The Rebbe studied engineering at the Sorbonne".
ReplyDeleteThen when people started pointing out that the Sorbonne was the Faculte des Arts et Metiers of the Universite de Paris, not the engineering school, it turned into "studied at the Sorbonne".
Then around 2005, Friedman looked into it, didn't find an enrollment record at the Sorbonne, but found the ESTP records that nobody had mentioned before.
Then JEM, anxious to outdo the terrible Friedman who had testified on behalf of the Neched and thus proved himself a Lubavitch-Hater and Un-person, found a brief record of one or two courses taken at the Sorbonne. Which they then trumpeted as Look! See! Friedman the Evil was WRONG!!! To the extent that his actual discovery of the ESTP records goes uncredited in the 2014 Rebbe biographies published by Chabadniks.
And it's in the wake of that chain of discovery that you wrote in 2010.