Via A TownCrier
Notice the letter written to endorse the campaign to free JP. Why did the Agudath Israel suddenly remember about him? If he was an "item" why wait 22 years to start campaigning? I suspect a נדבה על תנאי here, some rich guy is forcing their hand here. Then again they're not the official sponsor here, the Young Israel is.
Why is this seen as a good cause? He commited treason, whatever his reasons, so he's doing his time.
ReplyDeleteWhy should we be petitioning anyone for his release?
I guess the idea is that he served his time and may now be released?
ReplyDeleteWhy should he be released? He knew full well what he was doing, and now he's serving is sentance as he should.
ReplyDeleteAnd aside from the fact that this makes things hard for Jews in government, I dont even undertstand what the message we're sending here is:
Jewish loyalties are with Israel first and the USA second?
I'm not sure thats a wise - or even proper - message.
Crier is right, WHAT ABOUT THE MIAS????
ReplyDeleteThis is the source:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=4972
Tzig
ReplyDeleteDid Lubavitch do anything for him???
I believe that after 22 years it's high time they let him go.I don't think any spy has paid such a price.This is one case where I feel it reeks of old fashioned anti-semitism.Casper Weinberg son of a meshumad was involved in his case and he is not suspected of any ahavas yisroel
it might not be an ulterior motive. People change their minds over time. I did. I used to think like the previous commenters. Over the past two or three years I have changed my mind and support his release. It could be the aguda did not want o take a position on the matter until now due to sensitivity with politics but now maybe they think it has been long enough... could be a number of reasons (or maybe the one you suggested)
ReplyDeleteAnti-Semitism? Lay off the drugs boys. This antisemitism claim is so beyond stupid that defending it is impossible.
ReplyDeleteThere have been a list of administrations (Reagan, Bush Clinton X2, Bush X2) - on both sides of the aisles - as well as congressmen, seanators, etc, who have been all positively inclined to Jewish causes.
Do you really think that suddenly here, in this specific case, they all became rabid anti-semites? or perhaps Pollard is just doing the time for the crime?
I cant see what possible logic there is for us to protest his self-inflicted fate.
Hey Rafi,
ReplyDeleteI like your blog!
For the record, this was what he blatently violated:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_clearance#Top_Secret
He knew it, and he knew the punishment. He should realy shut up.
(He held a TS/SCI Security Clearance)
ReplyDeleteZEZMIR,
ReplyDeleteA yid has being sitting in a horrible jail for twenty two years, where is some basic rachmonus??
He made a mistake and has paid very dearly.I very seldom use the antisemitism card this is one of the few cxases.Nobody says it is Clinton or Bush being anti semitic, rather indivuals who worked for the goverment who are pushing the buttons, that why I mentioned Casper Weinberg the meshumad
He made his decisions, he got caught - B"H it's not like the prison conditions in the story books. So, I don't blame him for wanting to get out, and I don’t mind if he DOES get out, I just disagree with the protesting and outrage.
ReplyDeleteThis was what he violated (He held a TS/SCI Security Clearance):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_clearance#Top_Secret
And you can see more about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollard
Boropark
ReplyDeleteLubavitch has done nothing for him, just like the AI. Then again Lubavitch doesn't claim to be a Pidyon Shvu'im organization....
If you susupect that he saved at least one Jewish life, all of you should root for his release
ReplyDeleteAnon, I'm sure that you thought long & hard to come up with that. What if his actions also put others at risk?
ReplyDeleteThe penalty for treason in most countries is death isn't it? We are having rachmonus on him by sitting in prison for the rest of his life.
ReplyDeleteIn reality we should execute spies as a deterrance to others who may consider doing it as well. In this regard the Soviet Union was 100% correct.
Today if a spy is caught, he tells his interrogators that he will tell them the whole story of how he pulled it off in exchange for leniency.
How, I ask you, does this hinder others who might consider betraying their country?
Also, for those who claim that the classified information that Pollard gave the Israelis helped save Jewish lives, my only response is, prove it. Until you do, all you say is merely conjecture.
Why not concern yourself with the three Israeli MIAs in the meantime instead of someone who broke U.S. federal law and is now being held accountable for it?
In addition to what Zemir said, are all actions morally justifiable if they "save at least one Jewish life"? I don't think so. Furthermore, I don't believe that Halacha allows a good motive to exonerate someone. That is, you are still guilty of theft if you steal food to feed the poor.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing, when Jonathan Pollard began work for the Federal Government he signed a SF-312 form: a non-disclosure agreeement that stated that he would protect classsified information and understood the penalties (to include imprisonment) if he failed to do so.
ReplyDeleteAdditionaly, every year, a person with a security clearance is made to undergo refresher briefings so they understand without the shadow of a doubt how serious their responsibility is and the consequences if they do not protect classified information. There is no way that Jonathan Pollard did not know what he was doing was a serious crime.
Jonathan Pollard violated the oath he took by signing the SF-312 and committed treason crime against the United States.
"Din d'malchusa dina". The law of the land is the law. ...or is there a clause in Rashi or Tosfos that says this doesn't really apply as long as you are giving state secrets to the Israelis?
Looks like a typical case of the proverbial "you are right, you are right, and yes you are right too."
ReplyDeleteJP committed a crime as an American citizen and is liable for that. On the other hand, there have been other - similar and worse - cases of espionage, involving enemy countries, for which the perpetrators received smaller penalties. One wold be very hard pressed to deny anti-semitic motives seeing the vehement opposition to freeing JP after all these years. His Jewishness and the involvement of Israel defnitely plays a role (at the very least to scare other Jews).
Rachmonus???
ReplyDeleteWhere is the RACHMONUS FOR ZACHARIAH BAUMEL???
A YID FROM BORO PARK SITTING In prison in SYira for 24 years!!!
If Baumel would be from Flatbush or Queens maybe the AI would do something for him. Boro Park is no longer their territory, so they have no reason to petition for him.
ReplyDeleteAfter this campaign I doubt that Avi Shafran or any Agudah or Young Israel rabbi will be invited back to the White House. This is a really good way to piss off the executive branch of our government. And it will cost them whatever political capital they have gained from supporting the far right agenda of W.
ReplyDeleteInteresting take, Tzvee, but way off base. What far right agenda exactly has the Prez been pushing? big government? free healthcare for seniors? C'mon, we're not in 1999, we know what the Prez has done.
ReplyDeletecheck todays news
ReplyDeletethe inane right wing agenda that the frum loved is responsible now for the growth of the KK in the us
1.)This is a payback for R pesach Lerner, who has helped Agudah in the last few years.
ReplyDelete2.) It is Agudas way of reaching the Modern Orthodox world, and hoping they become members of Agudah. They finally realize that their future with the "Bnei Torah" community is precarious [at best] and as such the y need to reach out to the (rich) Modern Orthodox world, [the patron saints of ArtScroll]
I'm not sure how one caused the other. If anything it should've shown the far right that Jews can work together for the same good, no?
ReplyDeleteBaumel,
ReplyDeleteCalm done, won't you?
Nobody says no rachmonus for Baumel.It would help if there is any proof to his outcome, that would rally the troops
PROOF???
ReplyDeleteThe mitzvah of pdyon shvuyim makes no difference DEAD or ALIVE.
It says nothing about a convicted criminal and dina dmachulsah dina.
We need proof to rally the troops?
There was plenty of evidence.
Where the cat call from the moetzes for a yid from boro park in the hands of islamic terorists for 24 years?
Your שנאה to Agudah gets the better of you.
ReplyDeleteI happen to be very knowledgable of what Agudah has done for Pollard ... and let me tell I have mixed feelings about him. On one hand he 'is' a traitor to 'our' country, and he has made the life of many orthodox jews specially those who are in government come under a severe cloud of suspicion. So by the mere fact of 'advocating' for him; we are digging our hole deeper in this country.
On the other hand it is still a 'halachic' chiyuv to help somebody who is in jail specially if he is there 'unjustly' and the fact is his long sentance is relatively unjust.
It is shamefull of you to accuse the Agudah of having 'motives' and thus impuning the motives of the signatories of this kol koray.
Rabbi Moshe Sherer worked tirelessly in JP's behalf: I know because I am a wittness to the fact. But in keaping with both the Lub Rebbe and Agudah's 'shita' all שתדלנות has to be done in quiet manner. Specially in this case for the very reasons I mentioned above.
I've attended countless sessions at Agudah where all means possible was on the table. I could be מלמד זכות on you that you are -as most people- not aware [how should you] but besides that you have a problem and all lub hasidim do.
and the problem is A-G-U-D-A-H !!!
Yosef
ReplyDeleteI have no hate for the Agudah, I just resent certain moves on their part, at least the American Agudah.
If they did Hishtadlus behind the scenes תבוא עליהם ברכה, and the Zchus zol bayshtein far Reb Moshe Sherer in Gan Eden.
Now you may come to realize how Lubavitchers felt all those decades when they were condemned for the idea that their Rebbe did "nothing for Giyus Bonos, Nituchei Meysim, and Shmiras Shabbos in Eretz Yisroel", when we all know good and well that the Rebbe dealt directly with those politicians, and may have accomplished more than any of the Hafgonos. When it came to El-Al this year suddenly everybody realized that nothing is accomplished by inciting the masses to burn garbage and block intersections.
Maybe you can pass that message on to your co-wokers at the AI, or even to the hierarchy there?
Good to have you back here at Circus Tent, Shoyn lang nisht gehert fun Aych!
718....
ReplyDeleteYoure a JOKE!!
"Shtadlones" must be done in quit manner,
Therefore... AGUDA supports the massive phone-in......
I guess, since evry individual will phone fron his personal telephone, this will make it "in a quit manner"
You and they are so full of it....
FWIW, people who spy for allies usually end up worse off than people who spy for enemies. If you spy for an enemy, you get released in an exchange of spies. The best examples of someone who spied for an ally were Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed for their crimes. (Ethel may actually have been guilty of nothing more than standing by her husband.)
ReplyDeleteIn any case, there is absolutely nothing that a letter-writing campaign will accomplish because Pollard can not be released unless he formally asks. He has been eligible for parole for over a decade but has never applied. Clemency also requires an application. All the letters will go in the circular file in the White House.
I've explained this on my own blog, which also contains links to the relevant regulations (which have the force of law):
http://charliehall.blogspot.com/2007/01/jewish-press-jonathan-pollard-and.html
Name,
ReplyDeleteCountry spied for,
Sentence
Jonathan Pollard
Israel
Life
Michael Schwartz
Saudi Arabia
discharged from navy
Peter Lee
China
1 yr in halfway house
Samuel Morison
Great Britain
2 years
Phillip Selden
El Salvador
2 years
Steven Baba
S. Africa
8 yrs, reduced to 2
Sharon Scranage
Ghana
5 years, reduced to 2
Jean Baynes
Phillipines
41 months
Abdul Kader Helmy
Egypt
4 years
Geneva Jones
Liberia
37 months
Frederick Hamilton
Ecuador
37 months
Joseph Brown
Phillipines
6 years
Michael Allen
Phillipines
8 years
Robert Kim
S. Korea
9 years
Thomas Dolce
S. Africa
10 years (released after 5.2)
Steven Lalas
Greece
14 years