Recently two events thousands of miles away and seemingly unrelated came together to prove a point made 3 to 4 decades ago. If you're confused I'll explain.
A woman from the FSU working as a baker in the Crown Heights Matzoh Bakery was "accused" of not being Jewish, thus deeming all the Matzohs baked while she was there unfit for the Mitzvah. [ Now I see that the New York Sun has picked up on the story, I'm not sure how they sniffed this out. Do they read COL? ]
The Matzohs may be Mutter BeDieved according to some Shittos, and we may say they're Bottul BeRoyv, but who would want to use such Matzohs for his Kayreh at the Seder? It turns out that it was a libel created by her soon-to-be ex- husband who was looking to create trouble for his wife. A Document provided by the Shliach in Minsk later proved that she was Jewish.
Meanwhile, across 2 oceans in Israel, a Bocher in a prestigious Jerusalem Yeshivah, a Bocher, whose mother wore a Tichel to her eyebrows, and whose family lived in the Torah'dike city of Kiryat Sefer, has been discovered to be a full-fledged Goy! He was engaged to be married to a nice Jewish girl too. The story first appeared last week in the Israeli newspaper HaTzofeh, and was picked up in In This HydePark conversation. It turns out that Chief Rabbi Goldschmidt of Moscow gave his family a certificate confirming their Jewishness, they must've duped him good. Somebody must've decided to make sure the Chossen was Jewish before they got married. ( I wonder why they didn't think of this earlier.) The whole family underwent a Kosher conversion after they were exposed, but the girl has changed her mind, she doesn't want a Russian Ger. The repercussions continued; as The Beis Din of Rav Nissim Karelitz was also implicated in this story, as they too confirmed the Jewishness of this family when they arrived in Israel. Maybe it was Al Smach Goldschmidt. The point here is not condemn Rav Nissim Karelitz, a Choshuver Rov, but to show how important MiHu YeHudi was and is now. Obviously Israel and the USA are quite different in this regard, in Israel all are considered Jewish, simply because they live in Di Yiddishe Medinah. In America people wouldn't take it for granted.
Anyway, Somebody in Lubavitch heard about this story and discovered a Sichah of the Rebbe on 20 Av 5731, 36 years ago, at the height of the campaign to change the MiHu YeHudi law and implement Giyur KeHalochoh, something most others deemed unimportant for some reason. [ Maybe if the Rebbe had left it for others to do they would've eventually picked up on it, but being that the "Chabadsker Rebbe" is calling for that Muz es zein treyf.] The Rebbe obviously foresaw the coming catastrophe, and told an unnamed Rosh Yeshivah about the consequences that the situation will bring; That Yeshivos will be full of Goyim! Like our friend Berl, CH told me: איז דען א ספק ווער נשיא דורנו איז אפילו אזוי פיל יאר נאך ג' תמוז
?
Read for yourself.
How would giur kehalocha passed by the knesset have changed either of these 2 cases?
ReplyDeleteBoruch
ReplyDeleteדו פרעגסט גוט
Unfortunately, I'd heard and passed on the story/warning about the matzah bakery, where I've always bought from when living in the NY area.
ReplyDeleteIs your information confirmed 100%?
I was at the fabrengen with the Rebbe when he opened up Mi Yehudi. It was the first time I'd ever seen the Rebbe SHOUT and POUND THE TABLE. Every chossid in the place jumped!
Akiva
ReplyDeletethe info about the non-Jew at the bakery being Jewish, or the Goy learning in Yeshivah?
Non-Jew being Jew
ReplyDeleteThe word KEHALOCHO was not intended as a TOTAL fix, obviousley what the Israeli government would decide would not dictate the ultimate standard.
ReplyDeleteHowever, what the rebbe was "Tummeling" was that AT A MINIMUM have the words Halacha written in for without it, you have a situation as we are in today.
The "FRUMER" olom did not give a hoot for this, remained in the Memshala etc, and caused the greatest Chilul Hashem EVER perpertuated in any generation.
A casual read of the Igrois Zach and Koach are an incredible resource for finding out more on this topic. to hear the Misnagdim today claim the mantle of "true Giyur" etc, makes me sick to my stomach.
I think you may have mixed up two stories:One story is about a family from Kiryas Sefer (btw a city with bli ayin horo 35 ooo people)and the story with the choson.The story with the choson was that he was engaged to a young lady and somebody wanted to check out his yichus as a cohein, turned out his father was a cohein his mom was not Jewish, the story with Kiryas Sefer is a Russian family, very frum who turned out to be goyish.Two farshideneh mayses.Now, you''l have to agree with me that the story with Kiryas Seifer does not shtim, an ehrlicheh family faking being Jewish?>?I mean what in heaven do they stand to gain?Ess fel aus goyishe Russen in Eretz Yisruel, they have many chazzer gesheften ,there are many mechalilei shabbos, why would they want to be frum, live in a chnyokishe place if they are not yidden?I don't know the story is suspect to me.
ReplyDeletewhat would you say about chabad houses that run schools with kids who are goyim le-halocha? Isn't that a flagrant patch in ponim to the Rebbe nishmasoy eyden?
ReplyDeleteTo add to anonymous 12:45 -
ReplyDeleteYodua b'shaar bas rabim, that "Maran Harosh yeshiva" וכל פמליא ההיא - abi to fight the Rebbe, no matter the point- allowed for GOYIM to be brought into the Yeshiva system etc, "שתיקה כהודאה" to the ממשלה (!).
Along with not caring about ANOTHER 1900 years of golus without the Golan (see sichas 24 Teves 5742; Yener's "teiyra", was somewhat prior). R"L!
AND THE LIST GOES ON, THINGS NEGED TORAH D'KULEI ALMA.. ואכ"מ!
PLEASE,
ReplyDelete"A document by the Shliach in Minsk, PROVED THAT SHE IS JEWISH".
Please read the letter again.
No one, no reputable Rav or Shliach (Litvish or Chabad) in the Former Soviet Union would certify a person Jewish on such weak testimony. especially, as she related, when she was 3 yrs old her father told her her mother was Jewish. That is the total knowledge of her Jewish background.
Solomon B
ReplyDeleteThat part, that she was determined to be Jewish, was only an after thought. The only problem is what to do with the Matzohs she baked. Rabbi Heller said that being Mehader on the Cheshbon of the bakery owners is Shfichas Domim!
Solomon B: What exactly is wrong with this testimony?
ReplyDeleteThe grandfather was clearly mesiach lefi tumo when he told the mother that his late wife had been Jewish. And she was 8 years old, not 3, when he told her this; a normal person can remember events from the age of 8, and can testify as an adult about those events.
The mother did not know that her daughter worked at a Jewish establishment, where her status as a Jew might be important. So she too was mesicho lefi tumoh, and can be believed.
This only leaves one flaw: when the grandfather said that his late wife had been Jewish, he certainly believed it to be true, but did he have enough knowledge to determine that? Maybe only her father was Jewish, and he didn't know that that makes her a goya. This is a real possibility, and he's not around to question, so if she wanted to marry a Jew we would probably want a giyur lechumro, because what can it hurt? A cohen she can't marry anyway (lechatchilo), because her father's a goy. But if she was already married to a cohen, do you really think a beis din would require her to convert and get divorced, over such a small sofek? And for a purpose such as ours, I don't see why we should worry about it at all. After all, none of the other workers get FBI background checks into their yichus, and who says theirs is any better than hers?
To solomon
ReplyDeletePlease look up the chasam sofer yore deha,he has a teshuva on a person that was found buried with a cross that he is still jewish,look on all the pilpulim he has to keep him jewish.
I missed the logic of Berl comment to you, Tzig:Because the Rebbe was right about 'mihu yehudi' (I don't know enough about this parsha besides knowing that Lubavitch themselves stopped the campaign, while the Rebbe was still alive)how does that make him 'Nosi Hador'??What have these two things got to do with each other?
ReplyDeleteA leader of a generation has to be alive, not correct about issues
Tkpnm:
ReplyDeleteBerl is not a Teysfes, don't be so Medayek in his words. His point (I presume) that the Rebbe foresaw this happening, and is more of a leader than the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivah alive today.
On the topic: In this week's (Vayikra) Kfar Chabad, there was an article on the "Vaada L'Hatzalas.." (I can't remember the whole name; who check into yichus of Oilim etc.) - about the family of Chareidim that were really goyim.
ReplyDeleteIt was intriguing, to see how the matzeiva of the grandmother was forged dates etc.
I don't have it on me, but it should be good reading material on the matter..
Hirshel,
ReplyDeleteAre you a former Vishnitzer that learned in BME?
By the way, why did the Rebbe drop mihu yehudi like a hot potato?
the last best hope for mihu yehudi came in 1988, when the Agudah-PAI got 5 seats with the Rebbe's help, and made it a top coalition demand. But the R and C in America organised a massive campaign which successfully convinced Shamir that if he passed this measure Israel would never get another cent from any Reform or Conservative Jew, ever again, so he refused to even consider it, and eventually a coalition had to be formed without it. After that, there never arose an opportunity to pass it again.
ReplyDeleteAfter that the Rebbe stopped mentioning it, because an issue of literal pikuach nefesh arose – preventing a Peres/Beilin government which would create the disaster we have seen over the past 13 years – and insisting on mihu yehudi would make that impossible. As important as mihu yehudi was as a matter of kisvu lochem al keren hashor, it didn't override the literal life-and-death issue of shleimus ho'oretz, and the Rebbe's failed attempt to save the thousands of Jews who have been killed by the Oslo Accords.
Cynics say the the Rebbe dropped because Lubavitch was losing too much money from the freye.
ReplyDeleteCynics can – and will — say whatever they like, with or without my permission. But they have no basis for saying it. And cynics who would impute such motives to the Rebbe can, as far as I'm concerned, take a long walk off a short pier. The world would be a better place without them.
ReplyDeleteBy hearsay, I've heard that the Rebbe said, now it is not incumbent on the Shluchim to "fight" the Mihu Yehudi battle, rather the Askonei Chabad.
ReplyDelete2 Queries:
1) If someone can verify this?
2) Why haven't we seen the Askonim do a thing in the matter?!
Several years ago a former Lubavitcher hasid exposed the Poper matzo bakery for using "Polner Goyim" in their bakery., oh his radio program. First came denials , then halachic bedieveds etc , finally an admission.
ReplyDeleteLast year matzo was baked in Bucharest under a Hungarian Hashgocha and sold in the US at "bargain" prices. It turned out that the rav hamchshir was never in Bucharest , and es laygt zich afn seychel that the process had issues. As Bucharest has no resident rav Muvhok.
Why , if the consumer is paying top dollar in NY , can the companies not make sure who their employees are ?
As far as the Rebbe goes, of course he was on the button for Miyhu Yehudi and even a Shaygetz like myself supported him 100% in my social convesations.The rebbe was correct shleimus Haam was an issue that was meakev the Messianic period.
But rabosai who blinked when the opportunity for a realistic tikkun came after an election when the Aguda won 6 seats with Chabad support (and only because of that support)?
It was not the Aguda or Shaas or the Mafdal, it was a chevra closer to home who were scared of the threats by certain secular American jewish groups to cut FINANCIAL support to Chabad International. That group is still in the saddle in the US and one never hears in any full page ads sponsored by Chabad of the need fro rectification of this issue. And we all know why ?
Thus Mihu Yehudi was dropped.
Whatever happened to the Lubavitch group called Vaad leshlemas Haam in Israel ?
Anon: It was never a matter for shluchim. There were many things that were important to the Rebbe, but there was nothing useful that a shliach in some derfel in California could do about them. Mihu Yehudi was a question of Israeli politics, so the people who needed to do something about it were those who could conceivably have some influence on Israeli politicians. The same went for questions of USA politics, where those who could have some influence were supposed to try to achieve the Rebbe's goals, but if someone was a shliach in a place where he had no useful connections, then this wasn't part of his shlichus. It has never been Lubavitch policy that people should waste time and energy working on an inyon where they have no chance of success, and would stam enrage potential mekurovim and turn them off for no possible benefit.
ReplyDeleteAs for the askonim, we haven't seen them do anything in the matter since about 1990, because there has been nothing to be done.
Shneur, it wasn't Lubavitch that blinked, it was Shamir. The threat wasn't to cut off funding from Lubavitch, but from Israel, and Shamir made it clear in coalition negotiations that this was non-negotiable. Agudah/PAI between them had only 5 seats, not 6 (they almost got a 6th, but not quite), and as we later saw only 2 of them would have obeyed an order to stay out of the coalition over this; but in this case even 6 utterly devoted chassidim wouldn't have helped, once Shamir had determined not to give in, out of fear that no R or C Jew would ever give a cent to Israel ever again. Also remember that Shamir ended up making a National Unity coalition with Peres, so he didn't need Agudah/PAI; all he needed was that they not go with a narrow Labor coalition. If the Agudah/PAI had insisted, he would just have left them out of the coalition. So there was nothing to be done, and the matter dropped off the front burner, because it was simply unachievable.
Schneur,
ReplyDeleteYou can say what you want about the kashrus of the Pupa matzhos, but they make the best and thinnest matzhos on the market.
As for kashrus, all hand matzhos are shvache maases. The only real kosher matzhos are machine matzos.
"The only real kosher matzhos are machine matzos."
ReplyDeleteI love the Somim Choshech Leor mentality.
Milhouse. The Rebbe said many times that the failure to solve the issue of Mihu Yehudi was together with the issue of the shleimus Haaretz - meakev geulah.Wow the reason Mashiach is not here is not because of David Berger or a Jew eating Hebrew national Salami. And you call that politics and issues that are of too little importance for Chabad shluchim to deal with ?Then what is important for a Chabad shliach to do, fund raise, PR work run a model matzo bakery or broadcast jewish music on a local station
ReplyDeleteShamir blinked -- Shamir is not an orthodox Jew and could care less about mihu Yehudi, the people who blinked are closer to home.
I am always amazed of how people attended the Rebbe's farbrengungs and even payed attention to what he said especially when he talked about communal matters and then went on to behave in a manner of olam keminhago noheg.
If Lubavitz was not going to fix Mihu yehudi who would ? Shamir, Rabin , Peres, Shlomo Lorencz, Itzhak Rafael, the Belzer rav ??
C"mon the rebbe was broken up by the impact of false conversions in Europe in the US in Israel and he said many times that it had to be fixed kehalacha .
The rebbe even appointed the rav of KFAR Chabad as the head of the VAAD.
I feel good that Schenur thinks so highly of today's Lubavitch International to impute to it the power to independently- without help from any outsiders- fix all that is wrong in the world.
ReplyDeletePerhaps he is right. We all know that we have kishroynois that we are not utilizing.
Schneur, mach zich nisht ois far a nar. Yes, Mihu Yehudi is of supreme importance. But it is a matter of Israeli politics. That's what it is. The Rebbe wanted a specific amendment made to an Israeli statute, and the only body that can make that change is the Knesset; amending legislation is by definition politics. Therefore this shlichus falls on those who have the opportunity to achieve it, not on some shliach in the wilds of California. If a Member of Knesset should happen to show up in his dorf, and seems approachable, then he should of course take the opportunity that Hashem has given him, but otherwise this is clearly a shlichus for others, not for him. Stam onreitzen di fraye, without any conceivable benefit that could come from it, is neged hakovonoh, for exactly the same reason that the yellow people's antics are neged hakavonoh.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe also placed great importance on implementing a Moment of Silence in USA state schools, but nobody would suggest that a shliach in Israel should regard this as part of his shlichus! It's a matter of USA politics, and is shayach to those who have some kind of influence on USA politicians.
The Rebbe also placed supreme importance on Crown Heights having a nice mikveh for the women; he achieved this once with enormous difficulty, but now the need is once again apparent, and it's a crying shame that it seems nothing is being done about it. But this is shayach to those who live in CH who are capable of doing something about it; a shliach in California has no need to ask himself "what have I done about a mikveh noshim in CH?". It's not his shlichus.
And yes, Shamir blinked, not Lubavitch. I don't know where you were at that time, but it was clear what had happened. The C and R movements convinced Shamir that if this change was made, they would tell their constituents to boycott Israel. He took this threat seriously, and made Mihu Yehudi non-negotiable. Once that happened, what exactly was anybody in Lubavitch meant to do? What could the Agudah/PAI, or anyone else, do about it?
You ask "If Lubavitz was not going to fix Mihu yehudi who would?" What sort of question is that? How has Lubavitch ever had the ability to fix this? How can anyone but the Knesset fix it, and if the Knesset can't be persuaded, then what do you expect Lubavitch to do about it? Hold their own mock-Knesset meeting, and change it themselves? Announce to the world that the law had now changed, and pretend that the world would take notice? That sounds like the sort of thing the yellow people might do!