An addendum to the story in Circus Tent: WWRTY?
This young man (of 19, not 13, so in other circles he would've been old enough to agree to a life's partner, so the brainwashing young kids Tayneh doesn't apply here, right?) had a Chavrusah with some Israeli Bochurim learning in New York at the time. Good Bochurim by anybody's standards. Chassidishe, Gekent gut lernen, Nigleh and Chassidus. He asked them to come and speak to his mother, and convince her to let him go learn in Lubavitch. The idea was that she see that her preconceived notions about Lubavitch were wrong, by seeing what kind of Bochurim learn there. The boys agreed and spoke to the mother, making quite a good impression on her, even according to her, but there was one problem, at least that's how the mother saw it.
One of the points the mother made about Lubavitch was that all the Gedolim were against it, including Reb Yaakov Kamenecki. She mentioned to them the talk she had with RYK, and the statements he made about Lubavitch at that time. The boys were surprised at the mention of his name, and voiced their surprise to the woman, saying that they know that he gave a shiur in the Lubavitcher Yeshivah in Miami, and submitted a Pilpul to the Kovetz Chiddushim printed in honor of the Rebbe's 80th birthday! How then would he be so anti-Lubavitch in his views?
The problem was that this woman was raised that by being taught Gedolim are true, and what they say is what they really believe. RYK was especially known to be the embodiment of Emes in his generation, with stories abounding about his care in being truthful. So if he told the woman that he was so against them, and that it was akin to shmad, then that's how he really felt. Now if two Kosher witnesses come along and say that they saw or heard him give a shiur, or that he had a pilpul published in honor of the leader of the group he was so adamantly opposed to, then they may be nice and fine boys, but they're brainwashed, being that IT CAN'T BE TRUE, because it cannot be true. Because He was the co-Godol HaDor.
You follow the logic here?
And as is obvious from some of the comments to the other thread, it is not just a poshute Yidene that thinks this way...
ReplyDeleteBased on my experiences/interactions with snags, i can honestly tell you that hardly any of the opinions - that are unique to them - have any logic supporting it, namely, that this and this person is the Godol Hador and this this person is the Poisek Hador, etc. etc. Then if asked to explain, they tell you that the reason why they are Gedolim is because the previous Gedolim appointed these specific people to continue, but nothing to do with the current Godol himself.
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to prove that you have really and truly been brainwashed?
ReplyDeleteDo you think anybody gives a flying fig about this fifth hand bobbeh mayseh and all your ridiculous pilpulei hevel?
(You 'friend' is sounding more and more like a nebish and wimp.A nineteen year old guy begging like a two year old?What maturity! This guy is truly fit for Lubavitch.He has passed the shoiteh test)
well may i ask any posek who reads this blog..
ReplyDeleteif a person says that a men is the g-d r"l;
1) is he a כופר בעיקר ר"ל?
2) if he tuches wine is it יין נסך?
3) can he be counted in minyan?
4) is it allowed for a jew to be משדך with him?
obviously this refers to those in
lubav that believe the rebee-men is
g-d r"l
and i move it with one step further
those in lubv that screame
יחי .... לעולם ועד
that many rabonim call closet elokisten therefore the tbove שאלות applies also to them
i invite alll that know the halcha to say thre opinion....
If you are opening the issue of infallibility of tzaddikim here you are walking on thin ice…..
ReplyDeleteto anon 304 am
ReplyDeletefisrt you're not sleeping enough
second, 2) if he tuches wine is it יין נסך?
a toochkes becoming yayin nesech?? now you must be on some kind of weed.
Calling a Lubavitcher that says Yechi a closet Elokist is like calling any frum Jew a closet Xtian.
ReplyDeleteJust substitute Rebbe for gedolim and then you'll understand.
ReplyDeleteWhy does it make less sense to follow a Litivshe godol blindly than to follow a Rebbe? Because he doesn't say v'yatzmach?
ailmisher, are you aware that 100 years ago there was no concept of gedolim, daas torah, while at the same time there was actual leadership of high caliber?
ReplyDeletehmmmmmmmm,
ReplyDeleteDo you realize that 250 years ago there was no concept of Rebbes while at the same time there was actual leadership of high caliber?
אם הראשונים כמלאכים אנו כבני אדם
(Stone me)
substitute what?!
ReplyDeleteThe point is she believed what RYK said to be true even after being told that he was pretty ambiguous about it. We're not speaking about "Mistakes" here.
ailimisher, do you realize that 250 years ago there was only the Vaad Arba Aratzos which was by then a failing institution? That not one of the names you could probably name from that time (say, the Vilner Gaon) was involved in what we now call Askanus, as later on the various leaders were - without being called gedolim?
ReplyDeleteThe way i understand it; RYK was strongly against the Shita of Chabad or Chasidus in genarel, and so he would not like to see a Livak or whoever go and become a Lubaitvher Chossid.
ReplyDeleteHowever being that he was a normal healthy Person, (and you might as well say an "Emeser" Yid), not full of hate as "some other Liveshe leader" or leaders, he would still have no problem to give a shiur in a Lubavitcher yeshiva, write a Pilpul for their Kovetzor or to speak with other Lubavithher chassidim like R' Mendel Futerfas or the like.
tzigele,
ReplyDeleteJust put the Rebbe's name instead of RYK and let me see if you'll have the same complaints, about ambiguity, etc.
hmmmm,
Bite your toungue! You want gdolim? How about pnei yehoshua, chacham tzvi, yaavetz?
Vaad haaratzos was a failing institution? Poland was full of torah then as it never was after the spread of chassidus.
Never before was it like it is today regarding the litvishe gedeilim, there was no such concept as going to your Gadol (RY is a given) for a Brachah, or putting pics all over the place of him giving tzedaka.OTOH by Rebbes, it was an entirely diff. story, they were G-dly people, people who took care of their town/Chassidus like a raya m'hemna.no comparison.sorry.
ReplyDeleteto lamplighter
ReplyDeletetrue that the rebees took care of the chasidim mamesh with מסירת נפש!
i know this well from the rebbes of my family,the tzanzer rebee
and his geza
however their גדלות did not drive them into a frenzied crazy mode claiming they are mosiach- god r"l
and of bieng resurected after dead like ישי הנוצרי ימ"ש, freash full of vigur.....
and yes that the rebee is seating in 770 at his usual table alive and fresh and gives wine and drinks to his flock.....
oy is this a crazy world
this is called עבודה זרה!!!!!
the biggest rachmonis are the small
children that these crazed lubvs are educating with these apikorshshe ideas
and who knows what kind
of חדשה אמונה
these kiderlech will grow up
in the נוסח of the new testament
רחמנא ליצלן!!!!!!!!
CAPS LOCK/Shoproner, you're still funny. Keep it up.
ReplyDeleteailimisher, let's take it one by one. Was the Pnei Yehoshua ever referred to as a Godol in his time? Was the Chacham Tzvi? Was the Yaavetz? Yes or no will suffice.
Poland imploded due to Haskalah, as you well know. Calm down. Those who were not attracted by Haskalah continued to fill the shtibelach and botei medrash through the night, Chasidish or not.
It"s not factual to say that poland had more torah before chassidus, in matter of fact the last genaration the elite geonim of the genaration were all chasidim, for example look into the court of Sochechov, Avnie Nezer,Klie Chemda, Chelkas Yoev Rieshis Bikurim , Eretz Tzvi, Eish Dos, and reb Menachem Zemba etc..Geonim like these were not to be found in Lita and not in previous genarations.
ReplyDeleteanon 11:24,
ReplyDeleteplease don't identify me with the meshechistin.thank you.
>>Based on my experiences/interactions with snags, i can honestly tell you that hardly any of the opinions - that are unique to them - have any logic supporting it, namely, that this and this person is the Godol Hador and this this person is the Poisek Hador, etc. etc. Then if asked to explain, they tell you that the reason why they are Gedolim is because the previous Gedolim appointed these specific people to continue, but nothing to do with the current Godol hims
ReplyDeleteAnd the Rebbe was the Nosi Hador? According to whom? Who outside Lubavitch thought him to be this way (absent the brainwashing Lubavitch has about the greatness of the Rebbe)
Anonomous wrote: Geonim like these were not to be found in Lita and not in previous genarations.
ReplyDeleteSuch embaressingly idiotic and ignorant statements are beyond the pale. How can such an imbecile be debated with? YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT JEWISH HISTORY OR SCHOLARSHIP.
Shmoe Tifoneh
ReplyDeleteCan I have the honor to debate your greatness? throwing insults without fact backup is not a sign of intelegence.
It's a fact and I heard it also from one of the descendents of the Brisker dynasty.
Anonomous,
ReplyDeleteYour statement reveals an appaling level of ignorance with respect to Jewish scholarship. If emes is to be regarded as an insult by you, you are not worthy of debate.