Tuesday, May 8, 2007
a matter of semantics
I was speaking to the Baal HaMa'aseh of Circus Tent:"WWRYT?" this Friday Night after Davenen, and the discussion, as usual, turned to the weekly happenings at Circus Tent. This is where, rather than the actual writing and moderating, the blog begins to consume so much of your time. You see my friends, he has no internet connection neither at home or at work, and had just been shown what I had written about his story. At first, allow me, he complimented my presentation of the story, and my responses to the incipid comments I got from some of you about him having issues with his mother, and not remembering the story since it happened a quarter of a century ago. He too, echoed my thoughts, that an event like that is never forgottten, no matter how many years have passed, but he did have this Limud Z'chus to say about Reb Yaakov Kamenecki, something that was echoed by our friend Schneur about his uncle in Kurenitz, Belarus, and his shprach with Misnagdim, even Rabbonim.
"It's all about the figures of speech prevalent in each society," he says, it's not to be taken literally. In Lubavitch, if you ask a Mashpiah what you should do about your son who wants to go learn in a Misnagdishe Yeshiva he would respond with Russian curse words, telling you what kind of people he thinks they are there. In Di Lita they used words like Apikeyres, and Shmad, and they're not Jewish, but they didn't mean that literally, at least in case of the latter. Even the great "Kano'yi" Reb Chaim Brisker attended the Levaya of his sworn adversary, the Lida Rov, when according to him his sins were much greater than the biggest "Tayneh" on Lubavitch. This - accrediting semantics and nothing else - to me seems a bit naive, and maybe very idealistic of our Ba'al HaMayseh, taking for granted that all Jews love each other, and that no one group would try and ostracize the other by calling them Apikorsim and the like. This man is by no means naive, which shows me that his main idea is to be Melamed Zechus.
But something happened these last 20-something years, something very terrible and divisive. These "semantics" seemed to take on a life of their own, and they seem to have changed from non-threatening figures of speech to words that change our whole outlook on life and Yiddishkeit. Where it used to be that you were judged by your actions, and by the way you conducted yourself, at least for the last one hundred years previous, these days the thought police judge you by the way you think. They decide that they're the holders to the deed of Torah and get to decide who stays and who goes. This is a phenomenon never before seen amongst the Jewish People, not even in the times of the birth of Chassidus, and not when fighting with the Reformists. In those days you actually needed to show a disrespect towards Torah and Mitzvos, to receive the cold shoulder and be banished. Today the "guardians" have little tolerance it seems, for anything they don't like or choose not to understand. Chaval.
Sorry, but Apikoris is a Hungarian epithet. In the Lita it was 'Am Haaretz'!! (or similar like 'Turke'). It seems more likely to me that Rav Yankev was just trying to show the depth of opposition to Chabad, without actually endorsing this view. (Meaning ‘Chabad is so bad that RAK considers it shmad’, not necessarily agreeing)
ReplyDeleteHey Twistleton, what are you doing, you are taking the wind out of Tzig's sails and he will be left adrift until a new alila can be dug up. ;-)
ReplyDeleteif it's hungarian then the Snags sure Yarshened it well.
ReplyDeleteSnag: nice to see too.
Hirshel - Greetings.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you tell us how your lag boaymer was ? Did you shep arein asach Ahavas Yisroel, esp. for snags, on the yayma dihillula of RSHBY, to counteract the inyan of shelay nohagu kovayd zeh bozeh, or did you try to imitate RSHBY when he came out of the cave at first and was burning things up and was told to go back there ? What inyonim of aveydas Hashem were working on on that special day ? I hope it wasn't all spent on parades and tiyyulim without thinking of hechere inyonim.
Snag
ReplyDeleteBlessings and Greetings.
You forget that I'm a Baal Mishpochoh B"H who needed to spend time with the family, especially since it was Sunday and some of the kids had no school. So I did spend much of my time at parades. But you also don't seem to realize that RSB"Y, in who's honor we make parades, gefint zich ba di parad, mit alle Yiddishe kinderlach!
"RSB"Y, in who's honor we make parades, gefint zich ba di parad, mit alle Yiddishe kinderlach!"
ReplyDeleteVu shteit ?
Was the Rebbe there too ?
Did RSBY and the Rebbe shmuz ? Maybe you were nearby, did you maybe hear what they were saying ?
"Hey Twistleton, what are you doing, you are taking the wind out of Tzig's sails and he will be left adrift until a new alila can be dug up. ;-) "
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean Snag. I am a Snag too. Worst of the worst, as I spent a little time in CH. No, not becomeing a Lubavitcher, but by friends who were among the last non Lubavitchers left. I was just attempting to explain what RYK probaly felt, as he did write an article in honor of the Rebbes 80th birthday, yet in MOAG has rather anti Chabad feeling to some extent.
As an aside, can you imagine in todays day and age chabad asking for a Litvesher RY to write in a journal. Doubt anyone in Ch knows who anyone outside of the Chabad world is
"if it's hungarian then the Snags sure Yarshened it well."
ReplyDeletePart of the general chassidisation of the Litvish world
Twisty
ReplyDeleteyou sound ignorant when generalizing like that.
I know you will love this one I did
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/?p=6759
"Twisty
ReplyDeleteyou sound ignorant when generalizing like that."
Not sure why you say that. As you yourself have written many times there is an increasing trend in the Litvish world to adopt many of the manners of the chassidish world, such as the running to Rosh Yeshivas for brochas and advice about which car to buy, celebration of Upsherin and Lag B'Omer, rejection of college for women and all secular things, more conservative dress etc. I am not saying there was none of this in Lita, but not to this extent. Whether it is chassidish influence on the Litvish world, or the fact that some many of today’s Litvish are descended from Chasidim is irrelevant, there is a strong chassidish influence in the Litvish world, which is why the epithet “Apikorius’ has entered the Litvish vernacular to such a great extent. In general today’s Litvish is much less tolerant than the previous generations. Did Rav Moshe Feinstein EVER write something is Assur (as opposed to looked down on) other than TV.
Methinks HT wrote that because I outed myself as a Snag.
“Twisty
ReplyDeleteyou sound ignorant when generalizing like that.” If you mean because I wrote this “As an aside, can you imagine in today’s day and age chabad asking for a Litvesher RY to write in a journal. Doubt anyone in Ch knows who anyone outside of the Chabad world is”, you are right, I should not have generalized. Still, will you deny that the chances of such a thing happening are much less today because it is less of a kavod to today’s Chabad, because many in CH don’t even know who the leading Rosh Yeshivas and Rabbonim of the none Chabad world are!! And could care less. You growing up in BP, and still living there are much more exposed to none Chabad Jewry that in CH.
Is the point of what you are trying to say is that we have now lost the context for statements that were made in the past; we now take literally what was meant as a figure of speech or perhaps even in jest?
ReplyDeleteThis, however, raises the question of why words of ona'as devarim were spoken about a fellow Jew in the first place by people who we would imagine certainly should have been educated to know better. If they were knowledgeable in Torah, they also would have certainly known about this prohibition. How is the fact that these words may not have been literal a valid excuse?
Twisty
ReplyDeleteI don't think much has changed in that regard. Lubavitch may not have much of a connection with the Litvishe world, but if it meant putting out a Kovetz in the Rebbe's honor they'd find these Roshei Yeshiva today as well, and have them contribute Pilpulim.
ASJ,
ReplyDeleteBut its almost an unfair expectation: Language is a method of communication based on the understood definitions of the words, who is to blame when the understood meanings change?
Excellent essay. Yasher keyach.If my late parents saw one of my brothers do an act that was wrong but klug , they would say "du meshumed eine" which certainly did not mean anything too negative. On the other hand they never used the word mamzer in this context and menuval was reserved for real bad things. Being a convert was so far off the screen that it no longer meant anything literally.
ReplyDeleteAs another person wrote here 'context is everything'.
In regards rav Reines , I heard a tape from the NK leader in London Rav Domb who said that if Reines lived today he would be greater than all the members of the Moetzes and the Badatz.
ReplyDeleteReines' yeshiva in Lida which included a serious secular program was called Torah VeDaas. So you know where the foundes of a school in Broklyn got their name.
Schneur
ReplyDeleteI dont think the Flatbush Torah Vedaas has no connection to Rienaas , what did the hungarian Mendlowitz know about Riennas.I remember passing CH and seeing a old sign on a shul with the Rieness name on it.
Twisty
FYI, the Zemer Oritzim has all the apikoris and kefira epithats in it, it was quite far in place and time from Hungarian Kehila partitioning
Hershel
ReplyDeleteIt seems that you view your blog as some kind of 'shlichus'.I see it from the way you would farbreng time with this middle aged guy on a friday night discussing it and taking precious time from the family.
I can tell from a guy who is not Lubab, or as the Lubab say 'not YET Lubab' that if anything, since reading your blog I've become really anti.It's your negativity that eats me,I've got enough of that in a snag place, without all the maalos of misnagdim. (btw, the poster hmmm is a real poster boy of why you would want to keep very far away from Lubab)
About the middle-aged-guy who told you this mayseh:Listen as has been previously mentioned the guy has to sort out his issues, anger at mom.I know she is no longer so it's much tougher.See, that anothing thing about Lubab, it's like the communist kid who denounced his dad, they built a system, there in Der Alter Heym,Russland, that Stalin and communism is your new mom and dad and Lubab have copied it:The Rebbe is your new mom and dad.It's really sickening that this guy, who you claimed is a learning man, a chasidishe guy, would want to badmouth his mom to you, portraying her as a silly 'machasheyfah', not bothered in the least that you'd go and broadcast this crud to the whole wide world, and remember after all, many people probably know who this family is.Ask him if he ever heard of 'mechabdom bemoisoim'.This is very disrespectful to her memory and I'm surprised that you as both a son and parent do not realize it.
Heshy
ReplyDeleteWill you answer the question?Is portraying your mom in this light right or wrong?
Just answer, so we can see if we are on the same page.A yes or no answer would be best
His mom is the protagonist here, but the point is not his mom, it's what she's been taught by others, and what they tell her in her time of "need."
ReplyDeleteA Simple Jew,
ReplyDeleteRYK was merely being mekayem the mitzva of "lo sisno es ochicho bilvovecho"
The Hungarian Mendlowitz was not the founder of YTV School. He was of the Mesivta. So that's no Kashe.
ReplyDeleteb. ma
ReplyDeleteWe spend a few minutes shmoozing while the wife is home chopping veggies for salad. The kids are mostly asleep since I don't make an early Shabbos. He does not bad mouth his mother, and has the utmost respect and admiration for his Oberlander roots. Please stop with the amateur psychobabble.
Indeed Mr. Mendlowitz started the Mesifta TvD but not the day school. the founders included rabbi Wolf Gold a well known Mizrachi leader and rabbi. Indeed there was a connection between the early TvD and Reines --- an intellectual connection.
ReplyDeleteHeshy
ReplyDeleteYou still cannot answer:A poshuteh frageh:Do you think it is right to make your mother out to be a fool??
Let's make it even simpler:Let's say middle-aged-guys mom pops up and reads how the son has portrayed her, she is really going to shep nachas,right???
What is it about Lubavitchers that they cannoty even see a simple point.
Badmouth parents/mishpocha abi sNAGS COME OUT LOOKING BAD?
al rishon rishon, ve'al achron achron:
ReplyDeleteit's not right to make your mother out to be a fool
she won't shep nachas, but she probably won't be terribly offended neither. She's that type of person.
I saw a simple point, I just see it differently than you.
badmouthing snags, not Mishpochoh.
I'll tell him you said that.
Twisty
ReplyDeleteFYI, the Zemer Oritzim has all the apikoris and kefira epithats in it, it was quite far in place and time from Hungarian Kehila partitioning
True. But in that case they meant it. A casual use of Apikorius toward anyone you disagreed with is a Hungarian phenomona
As mentioned by other posters, Torah Vdath was started by Rav Wolf Gold amonts others. In fact, when my grandfather was in the mesivtah, Rabbi Gold was still active. The name was INTENTIONALY the same as Rav Rines yeshiva. Hence the famouse quip from Rav Elchonone Wasserman ' Torah Vodath is a kosher yeshivah with a treifa name, Rabbi Yitzchok Elchanan (YU) is a treifa yeshivah with a kosher name!!
Heshy
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if you are being cynical when you say you''ll tell the guy someone (I believe I echo many)felt it very offensive to drag your mother through the mud or as you put it 'mom would not be thrilled' in your understated manner.
I'll end with your differentiating between Snags and mishpocheh:A story is told about a certain rov who was close with both Horav Kook and the Brisker Rov in Eretz Yisroel (though not at the same time since Rav Kook was niftar in 1936 and BR only came to E.Yisroel in '40)The BR had a guest a family member who was very modern (maybe his uncle R'Meir Bar-ilan)he treated him with respect and cordially, after he exited the aforementioned rov, looking to make a point, aske the B.R, haytochen, you respected and were so nice to such a person (the BR was a big kanoi)the B.R answered 'he is mishpocho' (koyodua in Brisk they were makpid to be close even with modern mishpocho)the rov, with a bit of chutzpa , retorted 'Ba Rav Kook iz yeder yid gevein mishpocha!" (referring to Rav Kooks legendary ahavas yisroel that the kanoim claimed had blinded his eyes)
Rav Kook was nifter on 3 Elul 5695 (1935)
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what the point of your anectode was. Please explain.
Snags are yidden, therefore true to Lubavitcher ahavas yisroel, we are all mishpocha, because your fellow Jew is actually one big mishpocha
ReplyDeleteWas the Brisker rav close to his nephew in the US who was the communal rav in Boston ?
ReplyDeleteSchneur
ReplyDeleteReb Yoshe Ber from Boston has a hesped on a mizrachi leader Gold, Is he the guy maybe?
I am sure that was him. Rabbi Gold was also the rav of the Shomre Shabbath synagogue in BP, then an impressive kehillo.
ReplyDelete