I realize this may be going out on a limb, but it's worth the duscussion.
The Darkei Tshuveh of Munkacs passed away in 5670, a time when there still quite a few Rabbonim of Chassidic stock that could've given him an approbation for his Sefer. The sefer was published while Reb Yitzchok Elchonon of Kovno was still alive, which means it was first published before 5656/1896. Yet, for some reason he travelled to far away Lithuania - or sent a copy of his sefer - to yes, some of the greatest Rabbonim of the generation, but all non-chassidim. There's an Haskomoh from Reb Yitzchok Elchonon, Reb Shlomo HaCohen the Vilner Rosh Beis Din, and a third whom I can't remember right now, (who may in fact have been from Chassidic background based on the Ittinge name) without the sefer in front of me. Did Chassidim suffer from the inferiority complex that the Torah was given in Di Lita, and that only there could he find the approbations he needed for his work to be accepted?
Then again, maybe I'm paranoid. It might just be that.
It is quite obvious to those who are open minded enough to embrace the truth that the Lithuanians had a greater emphasis on learning than than non-litvaks, and that they produced, in the main, superior works. There are exceptions--classics like the Avnei Nezer and the Rogachover cannot be discounted, of course--but neither can the fact that those two had very Lithuananin views about the primacy of Torah study in Jewish life.
ReplyDeleteexcuse me anon, "primacy of Torah study in Jewish life"??!!!
ReplyDeletegive me a break!
It was probably a business decision. In order to get lomdim to buy his sefer, he would need a haskomah from a Litvak. Chassidim would either buy or not buy it by the author alone, but lomdim would've stayed away from a sefer with a Chassidishe haskomah.
ReplyDeleteso lomdim can't decide for themselves if the sefer is "worth it," only the Haskomos tell them? we're not speaking about the Hashkofoh of the sefer or the Mechaber, we're speaking about the veracity of the statements and Psokim.
ReplyDelete>>excuse me anon, "primacy of Torah study in Jewish life"??!!!
ReplyDeletegive me a break!
No, give yourself a break and be more openminded. If you cannot recognize the basic differences for what they really are, you will continue to live in a bubble. Reality hurts, but at least you know what is under your nose. This was not a hashkafa decision. The haskama of R' Yitzchok Elchonon means a lot. The haskama of another Rav--even one of a community as large as Kovna--would not carry the same weight. And that prejudice is borne from a reality.
nobody doubts the greatness of Reb Yitzchok Elchonon, or the fact that his haskomoh carried much weight. What we see here is that ONLY such Haskomos carried weight, and he didn't bother with the Rabbonim of his region, whose Haskomos would do more to get HIS landsleit to learn his sefer.
ReplyDeleteSo now the Tzig is criticizing the 'Darkei Teshuva'?
ReplyDeleteI say this loud and clear before Yoim Hakodosh:You are a beheima with a major inferiority complex and you've fing a good place for like minded, dumbed down idiots-Lubavitch.
You'd do even better if you moved out of Monsey, to kahn tzivo 'ess hatipshes' C.H.
Asoro kavin tipshus yordo lo'olom, tisho notal Tzig ve'echod Kreyn Eights.
only a BeHeimoh like yourself sees criticism. (and misspels Magyar, too!)
ReplyDeletenu, nu. Macht nisht oys.
VeHeeeeeee Rachim!
'Only a beheima like myself sees critiscm'
ReplyDeleteAnybody with half a brain saw it.
Sorry for misspelling silly hunk.
And what does vehee rachim have to do with it?
And why not answer why you decided to pollute Monseys sewage system with youre putrified cholent remainders and not move to Kahn Tzivo?
Eh?
Magyar, you're the one who should watch out before the Yoim HaKoidesh. Tzig was merely raising a point NOT criticizing. BTW I always thought "that the Torah was given in Di Lita" anyways. A G"MAR CHASIMA TOIVA!
ReplyDeleteIf you knew some history of Russian Jewry, you would know that the establishment consisted of the Litvaks. They had the greatest rabbonim and Yeshivas. That's why R Baruch Shneur Schneerson, the grandfather of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe told the Rasha"b in Reshimos Ha'rabash, that he has a good semicha from R. Yitchok Elchonon, which will help him get a Rabbonus. That's why many Lubavitcher bochorum learned in Litvishe Yeshivas. The Darkei Teshuva knew that to get the widest circulation for his sefer, he needed Litvishe haskomos. Also, ROM was the best publishing house and produced high quality seforim which he printed it in Vilna.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is that R. Yitchok Elchonon gave semichos and haskomos easily so those in the know knew that they didn't count for much.
Ailmisher,
ReplyDeleteIf you remember well Reb Moshe with the big heart that he had, offered haskomas to everyone even for A Jep record,
Add on to to your theory also the reason that the Reb Levik of Yaketreneslov took semicha of Reb Chaim Brisker,
If I am not mistaking the Radziner Rebbe took only non chasidic Haskomes on the Sidrie Thara, but he got burned from the litvishe nonsense Kanois
Btw, the Oruch hashilchon took also haskomas from Reb Aron Chernobler and his son in 1 of his seforim ( it was lately reprinted.)
Just a quick note to all the many "new" Lubavitcher chassidim in regards Reb Baruch Schneur Schneersohn and his so called good semicha.Almost every single classic Lubavitcher chassdim were litvishe Yidden they spoke Litvishe Yiddish , wore the exact same costume (kasketen, gehakte kapote, and high square yarmulka) as Litvishe Yidden , ate the same food and married into their LItvishe families. IN the case of greater Lithuania it is self evident that the majority of Jews and rabbonim were Mitnagdim , hence their rabbonim were more highly regraded and more influential, lets be honest the Kovner rav was the most impt rav in the whole Russian area including Volhin and the Ukraine.Thus his semicha carried some weight more than semicha from an unknown but schoalrly Chassidishe rav.
ReplyDeleteThe facts indicate that many Chabad communities in White Russia had Misnagdische rabbonim as they were all ethnically Livakes.
Todays Lubavitcher coming from all different backgrounds is confused by the fact that classic Lubavitch were Litvishe Yidden albeit Chassidim .
When Rav Hutner first published his Toiras haNozir he had 3 haskomos. the D'var Avrohom, Rav Chaim Aizer and Rav Kook.
ReplyDeleteWhen it was reprinted in the 60s Rav Kooks letter had been deleted.
Shneur, what you write is correct.
ReplyDeleteClassic Libavitch were Litvishe Chassidim.
In the many small towns of Reisin there were generally good relations between the Chassidim and Misnagdim, though they usually had seperate Minyanim.
In Miory for instance, the Rav, R Berel Pianke was a Misnaged (a Musmach of R' Refuel Shapira of Volozhin, of R' Moshe Danushevsky of Slabodka & R' Mottel Vaiytzle of Slonim.)
Yet R' Pinake was very close to the Chassidim (all chabad) of his shtetel and even took on many of their Minhagim.
Today a large part of Chabad are no longer Litvish and Much of the "Misnagdim" are also no longer Litvish.
Interestingly, most South African Jews are of Litvish ancestry.
schneur,
ReplyDeleteDid chassidim wear tall (or square ) yarmulkes? Didn't the Rayatz wear a smaller round one like we wear today, while the Litvishe Rabbonim of that generation still wore tall ones? Didn't the Rayatz say that Misnagdim took the small yarmulkes but not the large talisei ketanium (or something similar)?
In addition in the biography of the father of Rabbi SDB Levine, the librarian, which is online, his father said that the communists recognized the chassidim by their small yarmulkes.
I thought that chassidim wore small yarmulkes so it would fit under their hat since they wanted to wear two covers. Misnagdim, did not wear a yarmulke under the hat and hence were able to wear large ones.
Schneur...I am puzzled but ignorant.Are you saying Jews from Moscow, St. Petersburg and points east were all ethnically Litvaks? Where does the Lita end and Russia begin with respect to the ethnicity of the Jews?
ReplyDeleteevanston, Schneur is occasionally a demagogue, and he is so on this issue it seems. In reality, Lubavitcher Chassidim were essentially Byelorussian (White Russian), close enough to the Lita to be influence by them and yet Russian as well. If you read through some of the history, you will see names of cities popping up that are Lita, Byelorus and Russia proper.
ReplyDeleteGuravitzer. Please forgive me for saying this right after Yom Kippur , but the issue here is not my personality , but facts. And in this case your factual ignorance is blatant. (I am not criticizing your personality , just making you aware of your ignorance of Jewish history) White Russian Jewry and Lithuanian jewry are one and the same . Is Vilna White Russia or Lithuania ? I 'll let you pasken ! Is Slutzk White Russia or Lithuania.Friends are such Lithuanian gedolim of our time like Rabbis Ruderman, Kaminetsky, Feinstein, Gustman Litvakes , well they were all born and raised in White Russia, Hey Mr. Guravitzer where is Volozhin, Mir, Brisk , Radin , if not in White Russia? Or is Volzhin not a Lithuanian yeshiva ?
ReplyDeleteFriend the Yiddish is basically the same , the clothes are the same , the cusine is the same . Like all areas there were regional variations in greater Lithuania too just as in greater Hungary the Marmorash Yidden were not like their Hungarian brothers from lets say Debrecen or there were were East galitzianer ansd west galitzianer , but they were all galitzianer. the shitah in Yiddishkayt is the same.
friend , Was the Alter rebbe called Reb Zalman Litvak or zalman Reisener ?The Rashab called the Rayaatz mayn peylisher because his mother was from the Ukraine implying that he the Rashab considered himself the opposite of Peylisher - a Litvak.
The Jews in S. Petersburg and Moscow were not native Jews as until 1918 only merchants of the first guild, veterans and other priveleged Jews were allowed to live there (outside of the pale) and most of these jews were Lithuanian ( including White Russian Jews).The Lubavitchers living there including my great grand uncles Reb Teya and Itzak Michoel Alperovitz from Kurenitz were all Litvishe Yidden.
As far as Yarmulkas go, just take a look of the pictures of the RAZA and Reb Ginsburg (son in law of the Maharash) and Rav mMskelik and I rest my case. Yes the Rayaatz wore a smaller kippa.
Mr. Guravitzer please read an article I wrote many years ago in Englsih in the Algemeiner Journal about the definition of Lithuanian jews . this definition does not abide by the secualr borders of the republic of Lithuania.
Evanston jew - there was no such thing as Russian jews until 1918 (Jews were not allowed to live outside of the Pale as I explained above as Mother Russia was too sacred ground for godless jews to resdie in))as "russian Jews" were either Lithuanian jews (which includes Jes from areas like Zamut, Latvia, Lithuania, Western and east White Russia(Reisen) and Ukrainain jews which includes Vohlin, Bessarabia etc. By the way the Chabad centers in the ukriane like Niolaev, Herson etc were all populated by Lithuanian jew swho came there for commercial and agrivcultural purposes. Thus there were at leats 2 different communities of Jews in the Ukraine native Ukrainian jews who tended to be Twersky chassidim and Litvishe Yidden who were either Mitnagdim or Chabad. There are any good histories of Russian Jewry which can be read, perhaps mr. Guravitzer should read one before he indulges in personal attacks in Chodesh Tishre.
Only after the the Communist takeover did masses of shtetl jews arrive in Russia proper as the Communists permited Jews to live wherever they wished for the first time in Russian history.and we got what we call a Russian jewry.
Critisicm from you is like praise from the Tzig. I'll take it any day. My only point was that at the same time they share much with Litvaks, they had there own culture as well, and identified to some degree as Russian, which had nothing to do with the geographic location.
ReplyDelete