Reader commenting on Circus Tent: My Unexciting (early) Life
The saga of Telshe in America is interesting. I heard that at one time it was so 'hot' that it was hard to get in there. Like when your father was there. So why are there so many people like your father, who learned there, but don't consider themselves Telzers? The difficulty in making Hungarians into Litvaks? Or was it more? Maybe he would have thought of himself more as a Telzer if he lived elsewhere, but living in BP, with so many Hungarians and Chassidim around, he reverted to his previous pre-Telshe state due to their influence. From what I gather, Telshe was quite large in the old days and places like Lakewood were quite small. Many Lakewood branches didn't exist yet then. I think that the advent of new Yeshivas and growth in air travel and travel to Eretz Yisroel to learn hurt Telshe in a big way. Why didn't you daven in Telshe minyan in BP ? The Telshe Rav is a Chassidishe mit a shtreimel. Sort of a funny combination there, like the photo with this post. A famous strong Litvishe Yeshiva represented by a Chossid. Amusing.
Hirshel Tzig concludes: There are a couple of misconceptions here that I'd like to address. First, that Boro Park was chock full of Chassidim 40 years ago when my father moved there. This is simply not the case. Boro Park is very different than it was 10-15 years ago, 40 years ago Al Achas Kamoh VeKamoh. There was plenty of non-chassidishe Yidden, albeit not as much Litvishe. Still, one can still find many Yidden in Boro Park that were never influenced by the transformation, and they remained the same as they ever were. Shuls like the Mirrer Minyan, Lakewood Minyan, Felder's, OAMY (2 doors down) and of course Anshei Telshe and many others still have very few Shtreimlach as steady Shabbos Mispallelim. Having said that we can rule out Boro Park influencing his decision as to where to daven, especially since he had many friends and schoolmates in the Telsher Minyan!!
The truth is I never asked Di Tatte Zol Gezunt Zein why he snubbed the Telsher Minyan all these years, with his buddy the Rov there and many friends there too. Maybe I should ask him next time we speak. I guess maybe he didn't wanna daven Ashkenaz with the Telsher twist, being that he davened Sfard despite his father davening Ashkenaz. Also, many other Hungarians that went to Telshe did become Litvaks, which is somewhat difficult to do, changing Nationalities as a Teenager, but it did happen! Also, i would think that such Torah luminaries as Reb Elya Meir Bloch, Reb Mottel Katz and Reb Boruch Sorotzkin z"l could have an influence on even an Hungarian Bochur, and especially one that didn't have a strong counter influence at home. So the question remains.
The Poster and his readers are making a basic mistake.Telz Chicago does not a 'Telzer' make.
ReplyDeleteChicago is it's own yeshiva opened up by American alumni of Cleveland.It is not 'owned' by Cleveland as today is much more succesful.
Cleveland is the real Telshe with all the European customs.Unfortunately todays generation does not go for it.
I think that Telzs' heyday was through the fifties
I think the likes of the Levins, Kellers, and Schmelcers would disagree with you. Riverdale you're right about.
ReplyDelete"he davened Sfard despite his father davening Ashkenaz."
ReplyDeleteWhy did he go off the derech and do that ? Maybe that's why he was zayche to have a son go away from his own derech ?
does that mean that my son may Loy Oleynu do the same and go back to Davening Ashkenaz?!
ReplyDeleteI'd agree with Mo-Town, after REMB's untimely passing in 1956 the glory days of Telshe were over.
ReplyDeleteIt was more like 1955, and just barely, 5715 to be exact.
ReplyDelete"does that mean that my son may Loy Oleynu do the same and go back to Davening Ashkenaz?!"
ReplyDeleteYes. If you are zayche, that's what will happen. And not only that, maybe he will bring you, and even your father, back to Ashkenaz too, as it says והשיב לב אבות על בּנים - על ידי בּנים.
No *individual" yeshiva is "guaranteed" eternal life, for that matter no individual is guaranteed eternal life b'eilom hazeh either.
ReplyDeleteVos shteit?: "Yachid meis, tzibur lo meis" therefore just as individual people pass on, so do individual yeshivas, kehilas, rebbes pass on -- but the tzibur goes on.
Therefore what is the surprize that Telshe is on its way out? Someone was just there and davened in the yeshiva and said that the bais medrash is down to thirty bochurim, with one maggid shiur, and the kollel has in gantzen fifteen. The high school has maybe another sixty talmidim, so it's become like a nice little out of town dinky yeshiva, and there are a few like this all over America and the world.
Anyhow if THE yeshivos of Sura and Pumpadisa could have closed so can ANY yeshiva with the passage of time.
Look at how many yeshivos there were in Europe that with the flow of history, the maskilim, Nazis, and Communists each helped to nail and closed forever. Look what happened to the "mother of [Litvishe] yeshivas" Volozhin closed by the Czarist Russian government (with the advice and help of maskilim) because the Netziv was adamant not to allow any limudei cheil.
So if dear old Telshe in Cleveland is down and out, so what, like all yeshivas it has an extension of its meseiroh that goes on thru other places like Telz Chicago, Telz Riverdale, and thru any of its alumni who are being marbitzei Teiroh.
You know, the day may come when Crwon Heights will become so small and drop off the map of civilization compared to other places like Morrristown, Kfar Chabad and many out-of-town places in the world where Chabad is rebuilding huge centers.
So let's not forget that the only yeshiva that exists non-stop is the yeshiva shel mailo, and there is no single individual yeshiva shel mata that has been promised by the eibisshter that it will exist forever.
Everything has a beginning, middle, and end.
BP was very different 40 years ago and earlier, so I am told. But it was NOT differnt 10-15 years ago. When I was in yeshiva 20 years ago, it was already predominantly Hungarian / chassidish.
ReplyDeleteOnly Yeshiva etc.
ReplyDeleteSee here v'timtseh nakhas
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2007/06/3-tammuz-was-end-of-line.html
I learned in telshe Chicago. granted I cannot compare it to Europe, but as far as I ever could tell, it was as real Telshe as Cleveland was. It was not started by a bunch of outsiders, but by Telshers from Cleveland and mishpucha of the real original Telshers.
ReplyDeleteWe once found an old sefer from Europe in the Otzar Ha'sfarim. It was a book describing the yeshiva. I think it might have been put out as a fundraiser in europe. They had a schedule of the daily routine. Everything in our schedule was exactly the same as the European schedule, down to the minute.
Our learning sedarim were the same, tefilos were the same, everything.
I think we for the most part did not become Telshers for the same reason most yeshivas dont create their own style anymore. America is not like Europe. In Europe people went to a yeshiva and stayed there for a long time, until they left and went to work.
In America, with the ease of travel among other things, people go to a yeshiva for a couple of years and then look for somewhere else to learn. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but I think most yeshivas nowadays do not create their own bachur - there is longer the Mir guy, the Telsher, etc..
Yeshivas have assimilated just like everyone else. This is also the reason why so many people no longer keep their family minhagim, but have gone to some generic yeshiva minhag..