Tuesday, December 4, 2007
My Unexciting (early) Life
(Telzer Yeshivah in Cleveland, that's NOT me in the pic)
I was asked by a commenter here why I never say anything nice about the Yeshivos I learned in or my father did for that matter. That - according to his logic - is proof that I'm also an ingrate who has this unbridled hate for everything not Lubavitch. Nothing can be further from the truth, as anybody that knows me can testify to. Yes, there were times that I was made to feel inferior by the powers that be because of my connection to Lubavitch (and nothing else) but never did I take that any further than the person or people involved, and in many case I laughed it off as childish on their part and not worth bearing a grudge at all, especially seeing from whom those comments came from. Being that my blog is not here to expose people for what they did years ago, but rather to discuss issues, so this discussion will also not turn into an expose' of people who "hurt my feelings." I'm not someone who's haunted by abuse or things of that nature, so there's really nothing like that that you can point to and say that this was where it all began, as many are wont to do when someone changes his life's direction. What we can do is discuss my general history, anecdotes and instances and see if we understand them the same way. I do hope that those involved in my life are ok with me mentioning them, albeit in a round about way.
My father's Telsher experience mirrors that of many hundreds of other Talmidim, namely that they don't consider themselves Telshers today. He was a child of 13 years old when his parents put him on the train from Chicago and he traveled with his very Hungarian mother to the Yeshivah in Cleveland. The first 3-4 years were spent at the Mechinah - which is what the Mesivta is called - under the tutelage of such Yidden as Reb Eizik Ausband, in whose home he slept for 2 years. He had the privilege of spending time with such luminaries as Reb Chaim Stein, LBCL"C Reb Mordche Gifter, Reb Pesach Stein, Reb Boruch Sorotzkin, and Reb Mottel Katz. My whole life is filled with anecdotes from "Yeshivah," which is basically short for Telshe. With some of those he had good relationships, and with some they were not so great, as is usually the case with any Bochur in any Yeshivah. There were other, less famous personalities there that he also speaks fondly of; Rabbi Davis, Reb Meir Zelig Mann, Rabbi Helfand, Rabbi Hildesheim and others. He was there for the famous fire in the winter of '62 and for the visits of Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivah who would visit the Yeshivah on their trips and stops in Cleveland. A year or so later the branch was founded in Chicago, and 2-3 years later he was called home to continue his studies near home. In Chicago there was 4 more years in Telshe and there were Reb A C Levin, Reb Chaim Shmelcer, Reb C D Keller among others.
Despite spending all of his formative years in Litvishe Telshe he never did become a "Telsher." Yes, we're on the alumni list of both branches and receive candles, honey, Charoses, and tapes of all kinds of Droshos, Shmuessen etc. from all the Roshei Yeshivah past and present, but it never did permeate his being like it did for many others. Other past Talmidim make every effort to be back in Yeshivah for the Yomim No'Roim, and even bentsh in the special Telsher Nusach, my Tatte ZGZ doesn't. Others davened in the Telsher Minyan in BP, we davened across the street, it so happens, not that we were avoiding the shul, c"v, that's just how it worked out. My father has many friends from Yeshivah that he's still very friendly with today that are just the same way, they never became Telshers, and their kids probably know much less about Telshe than I do. In any case, having said that, when my father married my mother, a girl of similar Hungarian background, he moved to New York and soon needed to find a place to educate his children. The girls had started out in Bobov and continued in Margareten, Beis Aizik Tzvi and Bais Yaakov,, but the boys had no place yet. So my Tatte asked a Telsher friend who already had a son in Cheder and he advised a Chassidisher Cheder in Boro Park that was named after a Transylvania town - Spinka. This decision had a profound impact on my entire immediate family and changed our life's course, I think.
Enough for one day, More later iy"h.
Any shaychus with R' Yitzchok Sorotzkin? Why Telz? Why not Torah Vodaath, an environment no doubt easier for chassidishe kids? Any interesting stories?
ReplyDeleteWhy do YOU hate non-chabadniks so much?
Why do YOU hate non-chabadniks so much?
ReplyDeletePlease, don't make me ban you from this site. Did you read what I wrote here? do you see hate anywhere?!
Yes. I went through your archives. They demonstrate really, really intense hatred toward non-chabadniks. Surely you don't ban everyone on the site who has the ability to READ what you wrote?
ReplyDeletehe was Noyteh to Chassidus and did want to go to Torah Voddath, but the family situation didn't allow for him to be so far from home.
ReplyDeleteReb Yitzchok is much younger than my father, but we do get the Rinas Yitzchok in the mail.
Very impressive. He told me he is an einekel of R' Leibeleh Saras.
ReplyDeleteHow did your father handle you becoming a Lubab?
ReplyDeleteI was in Telshe about the same time as your father was. The names from that era you mentioned are very familiar to me. Furthermore, there wern't too many people from Chicago there that I don't know. I can't think of any... which is preplexing since I do not recognize your last name at all.
ReplyDeleteDoes your father remember me? Ask him. Who were his freinds at the time?
Also, Chicago Telshe was right around the corner of my house. One of my closest freinds went there and was our Shabbos Bachur. A brilliant fellow by the name of Sam (Shlomo) Krieser. Does your father (or do you) know him? How did you become a Lubvitcher?
Does your father know Gasthalter (Avtzon)? He was a Lubavitcher who went to Chicago Telshe at the time.
Reb Harry
ReplyDeleteTzig is my nomme de guerre, not my real name.
My father does know you, and your father too.
IIRC Telshe Chicago is not in a real Jewish neighborhood, did it change since then? was it once Jewish?
He knows the Gasthalter/Avtzons. AAMOF, my father has a Yeshivah picture of the whole Yeshivah in '64-'66, would you have been it too?
As far as friends go; I'd be happy to tell you that in a private e-mail discussion.
neveler@gmail.com
re: kreiser I don't recall hearing the name, but I'll ask him iy"h.
ReplyDeleteMy becoming a Lubavitcher will be discussed in later chapters, GW.
My father does know you, and your father too.
ReplyDeleteTruly a smal world.
IIRC Telshe Chicago is not in a real Jewish neighborhood, did it change since then? was it once Jewish?
Yes, very back in the sixties. but it was a basically transitory neighbierhood. When people strated moving out of the old West side many of them moved to Albany Park (where Telshe is Located) which had mostly older two flat type apartments. They quickly moved to a newer more stable single family housing type neigborhood of West Rofergs Park and other even more affluent neighbirhoods.
my father has a Yeshivah picture of the whole Yeshivah in '64-'66, would you have been it too?
I never went to Chicago Telshe. I transffered from Telshe Cleveland to HTC in 62 and was there til 72.
I am however in the last official school picture of Telshe Cleveland taken in 61.
As far as friends go; I'd be happy to tell you that in a private e-mail discussion.
Please do: hmaryles@yahoo.com
The saga of Telshe in America is interesting. I heard that at one time it was so 'hot' that it was hard to get in there. Like when your father was there.
ReplyDeleteSo why are there so many people like your father, who learned there, but don't consider themselves Telzers ? The difficulty in making Hungarians into Litvaks ? Or was it more ?
Maybe he would have thought of himself more as a Telzer if he lived elsewhere, but living in BP, with so many Hungarians and Chassidim around, he reverted to his previous pre-Telshe state due to their influence.
From what I gather, Telshe was quite large in the old days and places like Lakewood were quite small. Many Lakewood branches didn't exist yet then.
I think that the advent of new Yeshivas and growth in air travel and travel to EY to learn hurt Telshe in a big way.
Why didn't you daven in Telshe minyan in BP ? The Telshe Rav is a Chassidishe mit a shtreimel. Sort of a funny combination there, like the photo with this post. A famous strong Litvishe Yeshiva represented by a Chossid. Amusing.
Telz Cleveland today is a shadow of what it once was, with hardly a Beis Medrash program to speak of,despite the many Talmidei Chachomim who reside there. It is splintered and rendered utterly impotent by machlokes after machlokes and poorly resolved Din Torah after poorly resolved Din Torah.
ReplyDeleteDo either one of you know someone name Dovid Kasten or Kassel. He wrote a couple of seforim, was in Beis Medrash L'Torah and Itri as a Maggid shiur. I don't know where he is now. I don't always agree with him, but he seems to be very bright and very, very knowledgable. He wrote Divrei Dovid on Sotah.
ReplyDeleteAnyone here knew the author of Divrei Dovid on Sotah--Dovid Kassel or Kasten?
ReplyDeleteTalking of "what happened" -- what's happened to Tzemach Atlas? the creator of "mentalblog" -- after he started his new "reshimu" blog at http://reshimu.com/ he had a falling out with Gil Student and then it's been quiet for months. Gil's hirhurim blog is at full speed.
ReplyDeleteIf you are the "anti-Tzemach" then maybe you can explain why Tzemach's dormant?
Looks like he made a big mistake switching from mentalblog on the public Blogger to his own private reshimu blog that requires a whole new set of registrations and password. But even that would not stop people if he would post anything regularly ... which he hasn't really done for a couple of months. So it's a mystery.
Maybe if he's gone for good you can change the name of your blog from "anti-tzemach/Tzig/Circus tent" to something more mentschlachdik.
Reshimu is a museum of pathetic failure. אין שלום אמר ה' לרשעים . TA is too ashamed to admit his failure and get back to dirt-digging on Rebbe, Putin and Rubashkin.
ReplyDeleteGevaldig Hirshel! I read your post here with great interest and I await the next installment with bated breath…
ReplyDeleteZezmir
ReplyDeleteI was hoping for something more than just "That's gevaldig, Hirshel! from you, especially considering the effort I made in trying to satisfy some of your needs from this blog....
WHTG, U N, and Friendly anon
ReplyDeletethis is not about Tzemach, especially you Friendly. That comment was not very nice, so I deleted it. Let's stick to Telshe please.
Tzemach did Teshuvah and now he is a New person (new name)
ReplyDelete"bentsh in the special Telsher Nusach"
ReplyDeleteCan you elaborate on what that nusach is ?
I think another ingredient in the mix re the decline of Telshe is the dramatic decline of the Telshe derech halimud. In Yeshivos today one hears so much about Brisk, R. Chaim, Brisker Tayreh.....but what about the Telshe derech and the way of R. Shimen Shkop, R. Leizer Telzer and others ? Ver hert fun dem ?
Chaval....
Yeder hert fun R' Shimon, R' Chaim Telzer und R' Leizer Telzer--nor nit in Brisk.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/print/14506/
ReplyDelete