From Here
One of David Assaf's projects in the book נאחז בסבך seems to be Reb Yitzchok Nochum Twersky of Shpikov Hy"d, son of Reb Mordechai of Shpikov, son of Reb Itzekel Skverrer, son of the Maggid Reb Mottele Chernobeler zt"l. RYNT married the daughter of Reb Yissochor Dov Belzer zt"l and was killed in Belzec Al Kiddush Hashem, MeMeileh is shver afilu tzu redden vegen a Kodosh; but I feel like I need to defend the "claims" against him (as if) and maybe even ask Mechilleh from him for doubting the man's greatness. Seeing what Assaf makes of him is enough for even a novice like myself to see that the book is full of hot air and can easily be taken apart, but for someone looking for excuses why not to believe in Chassidim/Rebbes this is also enough. The discoveries by Assaf do teach us a lesson; if you're going to write to irreligious people make sure to use a pseudonym, or better yet, meet him in person and never tell him who you are.
The main thrust of his expose' is a letter written by RNMT to a Maskil, Dinesohn, in Lemberg/Lvov before his marriage. He was engaged to the Belzer Rov's daugter and he seems to have been undergoing some good ol' fashioned pre-wedding jitters. He had never seen the Kallah and probably had heard lots of negative things about the Belzer Chassidim . In those days the Belzers were the Reb Arelech of today, zealous and hard-nosed men who got their way by hook or by crook. Imagine a Bochur from a more toned-down Chassidus gets enagaged to the Reb Arele Rebbe's daughter - he'd have a severe case of the stomach-churns too. Assaf brings the story to knock Belz but I'll use it against him. He tells of a wedding just 2 years later, where a Machnivker son married a Belzer daughter in Belz in 1912. Just before the Machnivker Pamalyoh reached Belz they were "greeted" by a group of Belzer Chassidim - Gaboyim - who informed all of the women - many of whom wore Sheitlach - that they would not be allowed to enter the town of Belz wearing Sheitlach! In their town there's not a single Sheitel, and even a visitor is strictly forbidden to wear one! That wouldn't today, even in Toldos Aron/Avrum Yitzchok.
I imagine RYNT heard stories about the zealousness of the Belzer and was very afraid of what would happen to him there. Not that c"v his father's house was epes nisht al pi darkei hachassidus, but it seemed to be less ohngeshtrenkt. In Belz everything was Assur, Ohn a Farvos, and they seemed to thrive on "Davka nisht." That was the crux of his complaints and worries, and that was what he was so afraid of; that he wouldn't live up to their guidelines, and that he'd be looked down upon. In the letter he mentions many aspects of Levush that were foreign to him, like Davka wearing unclean clothes, and the fact that women must wear Tichlech only and be makpid on Giluach HaSa'aros. Pants were Assur too, you wore a long Rekkel/Kapopte, till the floor really, and that was it, and c"v not a wool one. I'm sorry if it seems strange, but that's what he writes. So, where do we this supposed double life that Assaf claims RYNT lead? is an aversion to dirty clothes so terrible? of course not, but Assaf puts two and two together and makes five. He finds other reason why he must say that really underneath those Spodiks and Shtivvel there was a "Maskil" waiting to bloom, the fact that two of his sisters nebach left the fold. Mirel Twersky was married to Reb Osher, son of the Yenukah of Stolin, and even convinced him to travel to a conservatory and study music without telling any of his family, including his father. They later divorced. Another sister was sister to the Trisker Maggid's Eynikel, her cousin, and was also a Maskil'te. She divorced, moved around Europe, and later lived in New York, where she raised a irreligious family. The fact that his sisters fried out I guess makes him guilty by association.....
All the three men eventually ended up dying Al Kiddush Hashem. RYNT married the Belzer Rov's daughter, he didn't call off the wedding, and stayed in Belz for a while, but eventually opted for Rabbonus rather than being a Rebbe of Chassidim. He was known as the Rava-Rusker Rov, and he later had a shtikkel run-in with his Shver's Chassidim anyway, when overzealous Belzers ransacked his shul for some reason. There's a famous picture of Reb Aron Belzer zt"l walking in Marienbad with Chassidim where RYNT is featured looking just like all the Belzers anyway, so I guess he managed to fit in all right. Most of the so-called "evidence" seems to be circumstancial. All I can say is, that if Assaf hut zich gennumen tzu em, then he's in good company, he joins a list of some of the greatest of the great who get in Assaf's way for some reason. The only thing that bothers me more is the excitement by some in the Misnagdishe circles, but that's for another time.
I'd also have the jitters if I were going to marry a woman who would be shaving her head, although I've always assumed that all "those type" of chassidim do it. He sounds very human to me.
ReplyDeleteI want to hear more about the Belzers without pants. Sounds like the Scottish with their kilts.
I seriously hope you are not reading this book outside the szar chamber (and if you don't know what the szar chamber is ask your Magyar baczi)! I also hope that you or a neighbor has a fireplace or incinerator so that you can properly dispose of it when you are finished, as I would assume that the paper on which it is printed is a bit too rough and thick for the use to which it really should be put!
ReplyDeleteGut shabbos!
According to your theory, why was he writing a letter to a well known Maskil?
ReplyDeleteWhy is it so threatening, if true?
The truth appears to be that the young man similar to other thinking young men was having some doubts, apparently after he married he settled down.
imagine a bucher from tomchei temmim comunicating with rav shach
ReplyDeleteand telling him he has sefikes in ya-yud kisleh ,hai teves ,kos shel mushiach, nesies, and maybe the gra was right,and based on the rebbes family enviorment he fits perfect into the rayatz household and becomes a yeshiva man full,time how would you call him now that you adopted that the havdalah DER TEILUNG is not bein yisrosl L"amim but bein yisrol Chusid, Lyisroel not chusid
I'm waiting with bated breath for the main event Tzig, i.e. when you defend the target of the books greatest scandal.
ReplyDeleteThat may take a while....
ReplyDeleteBut I realize that Chabad is always the "main event," which is why Chabad haters love David Assaf.
I'm also a big fan of the khozeh and hope you'll take him to task on his charges against the khozeh.
ReplyDeleteBTW a friend of mine knows Assaf personally. He says that the world of Academia regards him as a mediocre Academic albeit a thorough researcher. On a personal level he is thought of as a pey-tzadik and a shvereh baa'l dovor. My friend (no fan of Charedim himself) says he is a man with an ax to grind and out to make a big name for himself in a mileue that loves to hate us.
Bray
ReplyDeletetake out the Yud Key Vov Kay from your comment, please.
Whoops. Sorry about that. Injudicious copying and pasting on my part. Here's the revised comment:
ReplyDeleteMy point is that no one should be naive enoughto think that this is the work of a disappsionate, let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may, only-seeking-the-truth academic.
I do believe however that we Charedim do tend to revise history to conform with our preconcived notions of how things ought to have been and that Gedolim "biogarphies" amount to little more than air-brushed hagiographies.
While warts and all, tell all biographies of anoshim gedolim may abrogate the laws and/or spirit of shmiras Haloshon and may serve no useful purpose I think that the current system also has negative side-effects. Why? because young people who read them recieve the not-so-subliminal message that unless you are a kodosh m'rekhem there's no use trying.
Did no gedolim struggle? Did they never suffer from self-doubt, failed nisyonos, temporary or prolonged loss of brehn or even sfeikos in emunah? And while it may not be l'fee kvodom to publish and popularize the כִּי נָפַלְתִּי and כִּי-אֵשֵׁב בַּחֹשֶׁךְ episodes/t'kufos in their lives, by revising history to pretend these never existed, moreover could NOT POSSIBLY have existed, i.e. that Gedolim's lives were one interuupted meteoric rise ofְָה' אוֹר לִי the fairy-tale implicit message is that unless one never stumbles nor falters then greatness is beyond their reach.
IMHuO this implicit message may have robbed the current dor of many Anoshim Gedolim.
Friday, January 04, 2008 11:27:00 AM
Bray:
ReplyDeleteThat's "axe," not "ax" (but you knew that)
If your only critique is of my spelling bin ikh shoin ah geholfenehr. Most people would prefer that I run my comments through a "think-check" rather than a spell-check before posting!
ReplyDeleteFor better context of th eposuk I'm paraphrasing above it is from Micha 7
ReplyDeleteח אַל-תִּשְׂמְחִי אֹיַבְתִּי לִי, כִּי נָפַלְתִּי קָמְתִּי: כִּי-אֵשֵׁב בַּחֹשֶׁךְ ָה' אוֹר לִי. {פ}
A favorite of RYH when teaching Rabenu Yonah BTW.
the rebbe was an advocate of not hiding historical fact due to discomfort, as can be seen in his letters.
ReplyDeletebashmutzing stam azoi is of course not needed
Bray, the issue is how in the world can anyone seriously care about documents produced by the Russian Orthodox church?
ReplyDeleteHirshel
ReplyDeleteIts not exacly the way you are describing, a chasidishe bochur from any background has no excuse for laughing from a Torah concept as Nat Bar Nat, it was not the Shitel or the dirty garb, he was "then" a maskil 100% but I believe he did teshuva the day of his wedding,
The Belz monopoly on Galicia got him a prestigious rabbinical post by pushing out the Derech Hamelech's son that was a goan on his own merits.
Belz had other Chernobler SIL as the Ostyler that was considered universally as a a goan and tzadik
plenty of the daughters and girls were Oifgiklert in belz and all the extreme restriction didn't help much to stop it. It was in the air in Eastern Europe.
Tzig, not a word about Hungarian demons so far - how come ?
ReplyDeletewhich demons would you like me to speak about?
ReplyDeleteor... darn! and here I thought the slavic wash-basin is gone for good. hey, did you at least get properly medicated?
ReplyDeleteUN
ReplyDeletesorry, but comments about people's lineage, those that supposedly are based on facts, are not allowed. people might actually believe you....
Gee, Tzig, what about the _other_ comments by him and others about lineages, including where he declared one of enkere rebbe's a mechutan to be ... ?
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that you mr. Tzig have an absolute zero of shame or decency, you have proven yourself capable of plagiarism, forgery, not to mention regular lies, pathetic attempts at cover-ups, and will stop at nothing, not even making up disgusting fakefacts about dead people. Well, some dead people are better then others to ya, so you fell into a perfect placeholder actually.
1) YOU'RE JUST AS GUILTY
ReplyDelete2) They were baseless jabs, not very detailed, and nobody believed anything. You on the other hand made as if you know Berl, Crown heights, and as if you uncovered some dark secret about him. That I won't allow.
3) as far as accusing me of everything but the Great Train Robbery; whatever, man.
1. As far as "just as guilty" goes - Tzig, I was there noticing that the Kodosh Moishe Arye Friedman has ten times more cojones then you and all your leaders together as far as m"n is concerned. And there comes this creature, a mamzer muvhak, with claims of being the new Rebbe and uncovering yichusin.
ReplyDelete2. Nice of you to try to cover up (I'm sure berl will repay you with ever more loyalty), but the fact remains a fact and it'll come up eventually.
are we discussing the same subject here?
ReplyDeletewhat are you talking about????
what new Yuchsin about the Rebbe?
who's M"N?
how does friedman come in here?
Is this some sort of joke?
Can you respond to the charges?
Why don't you remind yourself why did suddenly der mamzer from CH got all warmed up, and then we'll talk.
ReplyDeletedirty slavic wash-basin,
ReplyDeleteYou are still showing no sign of proper medication intake. Well, too bad for you... Now, you can say anything you want, but you are not going to lie about things I said here. Where did I say anything at all about any "Rebbe's mechuton to be"? How do you even breeze the air on G-d's earth?
tzig,
The things I said about the slavic wash-basin were not exactly 'baseless jabs'. I said exactly what I meant – that although I did not know him (praise the L-rd!), nor had any idea about his identity, his statements here (no, not the ones about me) could only be made by someone lacking simonei houmo hakedeishoh. Just what he said about the freirdiker Rebbe was enough to put him michutz lemachane. I really do firmly believe that a Jew is incapable of feeling and speaking like this piece of human derby does. So in the end it all depends on what your definition of "baseless" is. One thing for sure – I did not mislead anyone into believing my statements came from any first-hand knowledge. It's all just my instinct (usually on the money in such cases... :) and all based solely on statements he maid here. The only other similarly disgusting creature I have seen was the so-called 'misnaged-in-law' (that creature used to pop-in on TA's blog from time).
למען והיתם נקיים
ReplyDeleteTzig,
See, berele has to root his claim to ruach koidesh, so he projects a [probably his own] statement about FR (towards whom i have nothing but respect) - and then proceeds to eliminate from "Umo heKdeisho" those who doesn't subscribe to his nusach. If you recall, sometime around Kislev there was a prolific stream of comments that denigrated both the FR, the late Rebbe and a host of other very respectable people with klulos nimrutzos, in I didn't partake. All those words, and not a peep from berele - that must sit fine with him. Subsequent rivers of dirt on everyone from Chasam Sofer to RMM and everyone in between - again, not a peep from berele the kanoi. Frankly, even my posts that an idiot like berele COULD'VE interpreted in his filthy sick mind as directed towards his religion - still, not a peep. When does he open the pie-hole ? When Moishe Arye Friedman is mentioned, that's when. And you know why ? Because it eats berele's eyes out that there is a person who doesn't hide behind a pseudonym on a blog when defending his beliefs. Berele doesn't care for Fridige, Shpetige or Hitztige Rebbe, or for order in 770, or for anything else other then self serving appearances, and when that gets in the line of fire, you sure have him fuming like a steaming piece of ... that he is.
And whilst the clarification of his BS not coming from first hand knowledge is a truly noble act, the readiness to make a comment about people who even _could've_ been begeder kodoish proves only one thing - the lack of heritage of such an obvious menuval.
I have a good idea! Let both of you bring your "Jewish" certificates and Sholom Al Yisroel!! Until then all this back and forth about each of you not being MiZerah Yisroel is pointless and wastes Tzig's time.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you're gonna claim to be from some great lineage you'll need to fess up and tell us who. Otherwise it's like a poker game - LeHavdil, - we can assume you're bluffing.
snaggele, many a wiseguy gone broke assuming that the other guy was bluffing. and I'm not doubting berele's jewishkeyt, a goy can't be a mamzer.
ReplyDeleteAnd many a wiseguy went home with a s--tload of cash. I take the latter.
ReplyDeletedirty slavic wash basin,
ReplyDelete1. My first 'conversation' with you was when you claimed that the FR letter was 'full of Hebrew mistakes', well before you defended the nazi-lover Freidman.
2. Defending nazi-lovers makes you one as well, and again, that points to the fact that you are not a Jew, no other knowledge is needed. I wonder what the rest of the readers think about it here. Why don't you wax poetic about the mesirras nefesh of Waffen SS?
3. 'Clarification' means re-stating something that was heretofore unclear. I, on the other hand, said right away what I based my assertions on. I did no clarification here, I merely reminded Tzig about what I had already said before.
4. Only a real moron would bring as any sort of 'rayah' someone's 'not commenting'. Do you dirty slavic wash basin really think that every time someone chooses not to comment on a thread can be interpreted as a sign of agreement?
5. What's with the pills?
berele, you're a lying s-----g and you aren't even ashamed that all your "conversations" are publicly available and prove that you're hallucinating. I never said that the "letter" was full of Hebrew mistakes; what I did say was that the letter was an obvious fake as yiddish spelling in it was very off and in fact was very much unlike the yiddish spelling of FR's other written yiddish documents that are known to be genuine; not to mention the spiteful spirit of the letter which managed to put down people who had nothing but respect for FR; so the letter is a fake. You had a "conversation" with the team insisting on the bad quality of the letter who carried on badmouthing FR, something I never did; you never even a hint a "conversation" with me, so you're making this up as you go.
ReplyDeleteThat you're ready to pour c--p on your own Rabbeim amongst everyone else is obvious, and you share your vicious lies and pathological hatred of everything that doesn't fit your narrow head that must've been squeezed really hard during your illegitimate delivery - is obvious. As more then one of your own defended the NK, you must count them out of the "Jews" too; no surprise there. A couple meshiguim bother you so much more then a horde of those who call your very own rebbes with names I wouldn't apply even to you; that's the worth of your chassides.
Berele's shitta is that unless one is born out of -------- ------, one's not a Jew. Nu nu. I guess you ------ ------ -- ------ ------ to be able to broadcast your filthy antisemitic vomit using his channels without as much as a peep from Tzig; and Tzig's ready to swallow right there and then and yap right back "yessir" ; as is typical of such civil unions.
Tzig - this is a wonderful by-the-book display of lies, hatred, fabrications and indifference to what's supposed to be the real cause of this moishav. Another page in the freak gazette.
(EDITED BY THE TZIG)
dirty slavic wash-basin poet,
ReplyDeleteyou are a lier, here is an excerpt of my first 'conversation' with you (before the nazi-lover issue was ever raised) and it is exactly about the topics I described here. I am done with you.
Here is my comment from on the post called
Sad Comment of the day
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 2007
berl, crown heights said...
tzig, I am not sure why you find it interesting to converse with this individual. The man is a complete fraud: First it's "the letter is a fake and is full of Hebrew mistakes". When asked to point at least one grammatical error - he goes mum. Now it's the “Rebbes turned the communist government against the frum jews”. When asked to produce some facts - it's 'somewhere in Ashkavtah deRebbe and some 'memoirs of the old partisans' (what do the freaking ‘partisans’ have to do with the events of 1917-1927? - nobody knows). Well, I read Ashkavta deRebbe and I do not recall any description of the Rebbe Rashab engaging in ‘anti-communist propaganda and agitation’. Let him produce some specific references, with page numbers ‘n all. Of course he will not. Nor will he be able to refute the indisputable fact that the Bolshevik rhetoric and even poetry was virulently anti-religious well before 1917. As soon as they came to power words turned to deeds. Then the creature has the unmitigated gall to call the reshimeis and the letters of the Previous Rebbe published by Kehos ‘gunk’. And you are telling me to be ‘civil’?
Monday, November 19, 2007 5:37:00 PM
animal from "כאן צואה"
ReplyDeleteyour "conversation" with me seems to start with "tzig". it begins and ends with lies, and has nothing but lies in the middle. you're obviously unable to read in any language, and you're choking on your own saliva when you project your own assumptions which you seem to take as truth onto everyone else. Every word of your post, from mistakes in hebrew and all the way to the "gunk" part (which obviously didn't refer to reshimes, letters or any other respectable material, but to all the GUNK concocted by mamzerim just like you) - it's one big paranoid lie. You're a knee jerk who tried to drag people behind whose shoulders you're hiding to your lowly level. And for that alone you'll peiger mitokh nivul berochnius ubegashmius along with every other lowlife antisemitic piece of "hepach tov" who won't live to see the better times.
טאקע א מנובל, דער נאטשאלניק
ReplyDeleteYou sniveling lier! The very letter you called 'a fake' is in the Igreis Keidesh published by Kehos... I will not respond to your curses, for I do not curse G-d's creatures, whether or not they are of Jewish lineage.
ReplyDeleteNO MORE COMMENTS ADDRESSED TO YOU WILL BE FORTHCOMING FROM ME.
You're pretending to be retarded and split hairs, but there is no need for that.
ReplyDeleteLet me respell it for you : that letter is a _fake_, and if someone put it into igreis keides, it's between him and ... . That doesn't make it less gunky. comments or not, a lying forger such as yourself wouldn't stop at falsifying anything, whether a random post on the internet or a document from a gudol beyisroel. Because you're addicted to lying.
U N
ReplyDeleteTell me Khaver, are you skitzo? do you suffer from MPD?
tambovsker volf iz dir a khaver. what are you, a CPA gone psychiatrist ? stick to animal welfare, sucking up to berelech
ReplyDeleteTzig, he already he is Holech Bederech Avosav whose claim to fame is that others feared their kepeida. Make sure Natchalnik never finds out your home address.
ReplyDelete