I'm not usually the one to deal with such issues; I have neither the knowledge nor the patience to deal with blind mud-slinging that ultimately happens when discussing these kinds of issues, but here I think I can handle it. Those of who've been duped by Yudel Shain for all these years, and who think that he's some kind of "expert," may think that this (KAJ removing the Hechsher for Aaron's/Rubashkin) gives credence to his years of trying to find dirt on the great Rubashkin family. After all, if the straight-shooting KAJ took off the Hechsher they must've finally seen the errs of their ways, and they've decided to stop putting their name to this "terrible" brand of meat and poultry. But consider this; if there was a real problem would they wait three and half months to terminate the Hechsher? three and a half more months of real problematic meat and poultry? I doubt it. The answer is very simple: follow the money trail, friends.
Ever since KAJ has added their stamp to Empire Rubashkin has not been happy. After all, would you be happy if your chief competitor got the same stamp of approval as you did after years of not being able to, and that keeping them on a lower tier with consumers? I think not. Granted, most Frum people still stay away from Empire because it's been ingrained in their collective consciousness that Empire is Treyf, and no matter how many Shochtim with white beards they advertise as having they still won't get the frum consumer to buy it, but many have overcome the fear of Empire and have crossed the invisible line into Empire. So, ever since that happened there's been bad blood between the two, as can clearly be seen by those of you who bother to read between the lines. This "bad blood" seems to have boiled over now, and the result is the termination of their relationship. That also explains the three and half month waiting period; there seems to be a contract until then.
The Yud Aleph Nissan date is cute too.....
Face it-It's all about money-correcting the problems are also about money, Weismandel they feel will bring it in for them w/o having to make things better- and monsey chicken problem wasn't based on money? of course it was!and yudel shain was right on target over there 8 years earlier-all those that he supervised in monsey and made the them rekasher the kitchens etc. aren't sorry now about their extra expenses spent!
ReplyDeleteRubashkin has had a lot of negative publicity over the years.Goverment issues, the book,Postville,PETA's video etc, all this has nothing to do with Yudel Shain, so blaming him is the easy way out.
ReplyDeleteA schochet who does not work for Agri explained one of the problems to me.All the other shechitas such as MealMart, just rent a slaughterhouse for the day and most importantly only take the glatt meat, the rest is sold by the non Jewish owner with his own treifeneh meat.THEREFORE there is no incentive to cut corners, by Rubashkin he owns the animal, therefore there is a major incentive to have every animal as kosher as possible since kosher and especially glatt command a much higher price.
I cannot confirm this as true but it makes a lot of sense.This doesen't mean that Rubashkin is not doing a good job .
Whatever the case they need a professional doing p.r for them because they have managed to shoot themselves in the foot all the time
Tzig
ReplyDeleteI don't get you.
The purpose of your blog is to defend 'Lubavitch bashing' which is common on the net, at least according to you.
Now, does that defense apply to every private Lubavitcher? Does that mean that every time two individuals have a disagreement you will side with the Chabad individual?
Rubashkin is a private company and I don't believe that you have on your resume 'shimush' in hilchos shechittah(neither do I,btw)So what exactly are you defending?You have no idea if there is a problem or not(you also realize that this is not a the first time by a long shot that they are on the wrong side of the news).Why mix into this at all?
Same goes for the Goldwasser 'expose'.Private fight, that you only know of one side and you automatically go on the attack.
You see if you show yourself as partisan and always siding with your group it makes the whole premise flimsy because all your 'defenses' are less based on the facts and more based on who is on what side.
The Torah disallows siding even with a widow or orphan based on 'shoichad'
Gaby:
ReplyDeleteI could argue the opposite side: a shechita that hires a slaughterhouse by the day has an enormous incentive to "find" as many glatt animals as they can. If they're particularly unlucky then they'll have a problem supplying their consumers. On the other hand, Rubashkin is large enough that it knows that the glatt animals it doesn't shecht today, it will shecht tomorrow.
I don't think either argument is wholly true. All shechitas have an incentive to cut corners, which is why they need supervision.
You'd be right if that were the case; that I'd be defending it just because he was a Lubavitcher. In this case, however, most of the Rubashkin-bashing is because HE'S a LUBAVITCHER, espoecially from guys like Shain. He's fair game because he's a Lubavitcher and has nobody to speak up for him. I speak to people that know what goes on there. The reason I speak up is because I know the man, and I know they're getting the shaft here.
ReplyDeleteRubashkin has nobody to speak up for him???C'mon pretty lame excuse.
ReplyDeleteYudel Shain in ONE guy,and I don't know that he has any beef with Lubavitch.Whatever the case ,Rubashkins other critics have zero to do with Shain:Stephen Bloom who wrote the book Postville,PETA who are not big ohavei yisroel, but if one is honest those videos are truly troubling...vechulu
Not to discuss the Montex issue or the Brooklyn Bundler.....Nada to do with Lubavitch.
I'm sorry to say that it reminds me of what one often hears from Blacks:Arrested 'just' for being Black.
KAJ is on the wrong side of the issue --for the first time in their history --but this is such a massive blunder that must be blamed on their new Rabbi who is way in over his head and who has no clue what he is doing --nor does he have any idea as to how a kshrus organization is suppposed to make decisions based on tovas haklal and not to stroke his own ego
ReplyDeleteYudel Shain is the Al Sharpton of the frum community and should be relegated to the same fringes of our community as sharpton is in his....
ReplyDeleteJoe in Australia
ReplyDeleteThough you could claim that renting a slaughter house for a day gives an incentive to find as many glatt as possible in halacha that is viewed as 'mnias harevach' i.e not gaining, if you own an animal and it is found non kosher it is a 'hefsed' a loss, which incentivizes one much more.Also MealMart deals only in Glatt, all other animals remain by the owner,Rubashkin also does a brisk business in plain 'kosher' supervised by Rabbi Zelingold from Mineapolis.
One last point:The post is about Rubashin not about Yudel Shain, lets not divert it to irrelevant issues,also Yudel Shain does not hide under anonymous names, he has a blog, Yudelstake and he makes his case there.Judge it upon it's merits or lack thereof.
Last but not least to the guy who compared Shain to Sharpton:Actually, unlike what you said,Sharpton has a very high standing in his community.
To the guy who said that this is KAJ's first blunder and blamed it on a new rabbi 'who is in it way over his head':If it's way over his head, don't you think his doing the right thing getting out of such a massive operation?I mean KAJ is a small community, why get into mass production issues, especially of meat with its myriad of halachik problems??
ReplyDeleteI don't know about today, but Empire's was no small production. Part of the "problem" with it (at least that's what I was told growing up) was that it was such a large operation that they were definitely not finding all the problems, that defintitely many chickens were Treyf. So if KAJ got out to avoid Halachic problems with Rubashkin why jump into an even bigger problem?!
ReplyDeleteChickens have far fewer problems than meat.Fact is many choshuveh yidden only ate chicken so as not to get into any shaalos
ReplyDeleteanon 3:35, it is to my understanding that Agri has a separate wing for non kosher meat -the entire back half of the beheimah is sent there to be shipped out and sold to goyim. If so, a treifah should be less of a loss, it can be sold as well under the separate name.
ReplyDeleteOne other thing I think I should say -
ReplyDeleteAnimal slaughter is intrinsically disturbing, both conceptually and in practice. I think we would be better people if we were aware that behind our juicy steaks is a cow lowing in distress and fear. I don't practice what I preach (I've never visited a slaughterhouse except for kappores) but I think we should be obliged to confront the fact that living creatures are killed on our behalf because we choose to eat meat.
The swing-the-chicken bit of kappores is icky, but the sentiment is very real. We're living, the chicken is dying, the chicken's death isn't conceptually different to our own. Perhaps we should make a point of redeeming these chickens and eating them ourselves. It would be the only honest meat most of us will have until we're zoche to eat korbonos once again.
joe, take it up with the torah, the one that doesnt seem to have aproblem with people eating "the poor cow".
ReplyDeletedon't force your emotions on others. i think you should do kaporahs with money. not even with plants as jews did once upon a time, as even plants are a fully living creature- see zevins maasalach.
"but I think we should be obliged to confront the fact that living creatures are killed on our behalf because we choose to eat meat."
ReplyDelete& the torah knows that & says "bchol avas nafshecho toichal bosor."
HT,
ReplyDeleteWe don't really know who initiated the sequence of events leading to the KAJ/AP breakup. Frankly, I am having a hard time figuring out just who is firing who here. I have some other opinions on this which I will keep to myself for now. I agree with you, however, that this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with kashrus as evidenced by KAJ still hanging around until mid April rather than pulling the plug now (Yud-Aleph Nissan, how's THAT for you LDS conspiracists out there!?).
That said, is it necessary to post this exact same comment anonymously on other blog sites? I just read it at VIN before coming over here. Sock puppetry is bit beneath you, dontcha think?
That said, is it necessary to post this exact same comment anonymously on other blog sites? I just read it at VIN before coming over here. Sock puppetry is bit beneath you, dontcha think?
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised you accuse me, Camp Runamok. I did not comment there, you should know better. I guess somebody did a C&P from here.
Rav Mantel commented privately that the problem is not Kashrus, but rather loss of control at the plant. He reiterated that there is absolutely NO Kashrus issue involved, otherwise there would have been immediate cessation of the Hashgochah & an immediate worldwide media blitz to publicize the issue.
ReplyDelete"I did not comment there, you should know better."
ReplyDeleteMy appy-polly-loggies.
There is lots of C-and-P going on by Yudel's Yuseful Idjits(TM) judging from the nearly identical comments appearing at VIN, Yudel's and at YW briefly before the editor wisely put the kibosh. I am assuming that much of that is the work of one or a few individuals trying to give the impression of a much larger groundswell.
Nice to see that a Rubashkin _needs_ a Weissmandel to survive. Very symbolic.
ReplyDeletejoe, take it up with the torah, the one that doesnt seem to have aproblem with people eating "the poor cow".
ReplyDeleteI didn't suggest that people become vegetarians. You want guidance about meat from the Torah? When the yidden were in the midbor the meat they ate was from korbonos. Even in Eretz Yisroel this was desirable. You know how the Gemorah says "ein simcha eloh b'bosor"? Look up what sort of meat it's referring to. I can see a clear distinction between the meat eaten in a religious context and that eaten out of gluttony, like the slov, or the meat stolen by the ben sorer umorer. All I'm saying is that we should recognise that killing an animal is a morally significant act. It's not enough to say that that's what the animal was created for.
joe, eating meat that was not used for korbonos does not constitute glutony. it's not a fine line- dont make it one.
ReplyDeleteben sorer never existed so dont bring raayos from hypothetical. we live in the real world, post mabul man was instructed that he could eat meat.
no major conditions aply- of course no glutony but not the other extreme
Mantel took 52 weeks to destroy the premiere kashrus organization that took four rabbonim 52 years to build.......
ReplyDeleteAccording to your svora Rubashkin should also drop teh OU , after all it too supervises Empire.
ReplyDeleteAt present one wonders if more frum people eat Empire or Rubashkin in terms of poultry.
Schneur
ReplyDeletethe difference is that the OU supervised Empire before Rubashkin, whereas with the KAJ. Rubashkin's advantage was that he had the straight-shooting, no nonsense KAJ supervising them, whereas Empire had the "Meykel" OU doing their supervision.
Maybe I have been in the boon -docks of frumkayt too long. But the "new" OU has as its authority no less than rabbi Yisroel Belsky rosh yeshiva of Tora VeDaas9Backed up bu YU's own Rosh yeshiva Horav Herschel Schachtet). All Empire shochtim have beards etc.
ReplyDeleteNot only will Rubashkin take a hit here, but the the last local Kosher meat outlet in WH is apparently run by R the KEY FOOD Mkt and I suspect there will be issues here. Exactly whom will KAJ annoint as the new kosher meat supplier ? Meal Mart or maybe hebrew national.
Whats wrong in the Rubashkin story (whether its their fault or not) is that they have an apparent monopoly over Kosher dressing in the Us outside of Chassidishe kehilos in terms of beef. I can think of no toher company that kills kosher on a national level for the avergae Joe Cholent (not for satmar or Skver). Monopolies are never healthy.
"Whats wrong in the Rubashkin story (whether its their fault or not) is that they have an apparent monopoly over Kosher dressing in the Us outside of Chassidishe kehilos in terms of beef. I can think of no toher company that kills kosher on a national level for the avergae Joe Cholent (not for satmar or Skver)."
ReplyDeleteWell, to their credit, they have managed to get their product on the supermarket shelves in some pretty yehupitzville places. Seriously, I just saw Aaron's for sale on Cape Cod; not exactly a major heimische destination in winter. International Glatt used to have the lead in that market space when PM Holdings sold their beef under the "Zalman's" brand. That they abandoned that market is nobody's fault but their own.
There is definitely room for two or more glatt beef producers in the "Joe Cholent" marketplace.
'All Empire shochtim have beards etc'
ReplyDeleteUh-oh! I thought I could somewhat trust the OU, now with the added stringency of beards (and welfare, probably)better look for reliable supervision.
So Schneour, beard makes the man,eh?Wonder what the guys in Ottisville, the Upstate 'camp' for the guys with the beards(and peyos)get to stay on Uncle Sams tab, say about that/
What a screwed up state of events we have today that a persons 'ehrlechkait' is judged by the length of his beard!
Notice that many of those 'frimmeh' child molestors have 'beards etc' eh??
Funny that you say it, actually, cuz I realize that M...the biggest child molestor of all, also has the longest beard...
The OU does not set kashrus policy at rubashkin. Whereas it sets (or used to set) policy at empire. The reason for the ou in rubashkin is that they will not use meat which they do not certify.
ReplyDelete"The OU does not set kashrus policy at rubashkin"
ReplyDeleteWell, perhaps not officially. However, don't forget that RMMW serves as a "kashrus process consultant" or somesuch for the OU. The Nirbater Rav does something similar as well. So, even though they are arguably independent voices the OU generally speaks with their voices on matters for which they are retained. So, there is some pretty significant overlap between those marks; enough so that I (perhaps erroneously) consider them effectively one-and-the-same.
Mantel ran to Israel for a few weeks which means that he can't doant more damage in NY till he gets back and he has not been in Israel long enough to do damage there....
ReplyDeleteTruth : My comments are said in a leshitoscha manner according to the Chassidic shita. If you read my comments regularly you will know my opinions of Chitzoniuth in Judaism today. In this we are in total agreemnt.I will add that a shochet is a yare shomayim merabbim and even in the uS there are times that a beard may indicate a seriously frum man. In my own case its not accurate.
ReplyDeleteCamp Runamok, Acheiving technical success is not what we are talking about . If thats the final goal then Empire and Hebrew National are right up there. We are talking Kashruth, ethical treatment of workers.
Next why glatt suppliers. Pray tell me whats wrong with Basar kasher after all almost all frum Yidden in east Europe ate that manner of meat and let me ask is OU meat glatt according to the definition of the Shulchan Aruch ?
"Acheiving technical success is not what we are talking about ..."
ReplyDeleteMarket success is a huge part of the game and it is foolish to think it unimportant. Usually, the market leaders are the ones who correctly predict customer sentiments. Now, why is this not the case in kosher beef (I'll indulge your contempt for "glatt" here). As I said, International Glatt's beef, marketed as "Zalman's" by the mainstream packer PM arguably had better HACCP/FSIS/animal welfare/etc. track records than AP not to memtion tasted much better. Their influence on AP could have been significant had that product line stayed in the market. However, that opportunity was lost thanks to the IGK shochtim walkout in Minnesota. And, no, Hebrew National cannot hold a candle to AP's success, no matter how you slice it. If someone out there can get a better product with better processing into that segment and keep it there it would be great.
BTW, where did the former IGK ShuBiM end up? I bet dollars to donuts most ended up 100 miles down the road in Postville, IA!
"Next why glatt suppliers. Pray tell me whats wrong with Basar kasher...?"
The market has spoken on that one and it wants "glatt". Period. Full. Stop. Even the "David's" that used to be available in my neighborhood Big Box has completely disappeared while HN is limited to a few packs of franks and bologna. Now, if you want to channel Alexander Hamilton and say "Der eilem iz a geilem" be my guest.
Channel Alexander Hamilton ... and say .... vas maynt dos ?
ReplyDeleteTruth !! said
ReplyDeleteIn my Shulchan Aruch, Kashruth and Dina Demalchusa is not the issur,
"vas maynt dos ?"
ReplyDeleteDas maynt azoi. In fairness, I suspect this citation is an urban legend. Nevertheless, the implication here is that people will, by and large, act as a herd and follow leadership rather than act autonomously and with adequate deliberation.
In our instance it may be the case that modern American Jews' insistence on OU/KAJ/whatever "glatt" is inadequately justified and simply reflects a blind following of a clique of self-selected leaders. Maybe stam "basar kosher" should suffice us halachically. I have no problem with this sort of thinking but I feel it to be academic and practically meaningless. The kosher consuming public wants "glatt" and votes with its wallet despite having had plenty of alternatives available for some time. Laboring to change this sentiment smacks of Don Quixote tilting at windmills.
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2008/09/rubashkin-latest.html
ReplyDelete