what a novel idea!
An anonymous reader commenting to Circus Tent: (2) האלבע ארבעט
Hirshel,
Please bring 'em on fast and furious! Don't let up until you have expended all ammunition regarding this issue of the "Queen Elizabeth" standard of living we have been forced into by the "heimishe" chandelier -> breakfront -> leather couch -> black SUV -> matching clothing -> beheime fleish -> hoieche shtraamell mit a kroin -> winterized summer home -> breite kiddish -> silver vase -> vort, barmitzvah, sheva brooches, shloishim seedeh, fres-fests w/props and party planner -> Ateres Buckingham Palace wedding hall crowd. The list is endless... Not to mention the "religiously" oriented obsessive spending. The grossly bloated and bepatchkete 925 oversized Menoires, esrig pishkes, megille halters, zalts meistlech, napkin holders, besuumem pishkes, atooores (Shabbes, in far di vochentug) alles lekuved Shabbes!!! The echt leiderne antique covered siddeeerem, machzoirem, ketoires on klaf , chuusen shassen, tzenerenas, seleeches, (look out for the new leather kinnus) All in the name of the almighty G-d. Forget about the housing issue including home furniture, lighting, staircases, doors, decarative hardware and seforim shranks. I don't even know where to start.
Are BP, CH, KJ, Lkwd and Willy "America?"
Regarding the prices on goods and services within the heimishe community; Firstly, given the above mentioned "breite" standard of living, every shop owner or fachman starts out with the premise that you need to become rich from selling anything, otherwise there is no point in trying, no such thing as trying to "make an average living". So he needs to milk the consumer to the max. Whether it's a jewelry store or a shoe store, dress shop or seforim store, hat store or dry goods, a car dealer or electronics, the mikveh yid or the plumber, kid's tutor or mechanic etc. etc. aleh derfen shein ferdeenen. Forget about the quality of the product, or the reliability of the services, not to mention friendly courteous service; those are non-issues in competition the hatzloche depends on the cutthroat and nasty "take it or leave it" "ich hub besers voos tzi teen" attitude you convey to your fellow Yid. Ver ret noch when dealing with a temimes'digeh mother of ten whose husband struggles just to pay the mortgage - just ignore her or sell her the seconds, "tax free".
Out of the coffee rooms!
There are many items which without which it's poshut impossible to be Jewish. For instance: Black velvet/felt hats - in the rain, leather dress shoes in the snow, 100% polyester (zaadeneh) beckishes in the hot summer, Tall shtreimlech to dance at hakoofes, Custom Sheitlach (for the less-frum) when taking the baby to the doctor r"l, designer hats (for the echt frimme) when going to the fish store, diamond earrings when going to the dentist and last but not least Italian shoes when taking the kids to the hair dresser. Or food: overnight kigel, matyash herring by the .001 oz, or 4.5 oz. containers of Arbes, 98% Mayonnaise - egg, tuna, dill, olive, spinach, whitefish and lox dips, Express tuna-less sandwiches, zero trans fat rugelach (best in the entire country), overstuffed pastrami flavored filling sandwiches, and yes, LIGHT grape juice. Hello! Any accountability out there? Der oilem is hingerig! Royal Shoes, Malchus Suits, Kesser Hats, Queen's Boutique. Oh! I forgot Royal Linen, Royal Furniture, Royal Kitchens, Royal Doors, etc. The obsession with these types of names says alot about the mentality of the consumer. We have gone totally crazy, and I shudder when thinking what will need to happen in order to bring us back to a sane, logical, economically-sound way of life. PLEASE SOUND THE ALARM! KEEP THIS ISSUE ON THE FRONT BURNER UNTIL EVERYONE COMES TO THEIR SENSES!
May everyone be gebentched mit asach parnooseh bekooved.
Anonymous
P.S I am out of breath, as you can tell.
Hirschel - Do you give out awards for best post of the year? This has got to be it. So on target.
ReplyDeleteI have a lot to add, but I gotta run to beat the traffic up to the country. (No, I don't have a winterized summer home, just a plain old dinky rented bungalow).
Have a great Shabbos.
and you pay what for that bungalow, $6000?
ReplyDeletewhile paying a mortgage or rent on a house in Brooklyn at the same time?
You must be rich!
I am enjoying these postings, Hirshel. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteyou really going after the spending habits
ReplyDeleteHirshel
ReplyDeleteIts all the Hungarian fargrebte culture,
Thats all what Hitler left us, it is definitely the rotzan hashem, that klal yisroel should have the bad from the hungarian intolerance, but the good too,they have a big hearths
Regarding the Hungarian, even when they became real ovdie hashem as for instance Reb Aron Roth and his chevraihe kadisha that attracted alot of ovdie hashem, but they always went for the chitzoinois too,the widest brims, flamboyant clothing,(reminds me of the Blacks in the south)and most Hungarians when the become some kind of Rov, Magid shiur, etc.. it will reflect on their chitzonious. When discussing bris kodesh in Toldos Aron its on a graphic way,Vs. Ger that has the same obsession but you will never reliaze it as a stranger. Reb Aron Tietelbaum loves to get in the details of the buttoned down shirt or the short cuts, I am not a not Freud to give a lecture on toras hanefesh of the Hungarian but its a fact that has to be studied.
ReplyDeleteVery well written! Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteEverything was all well about the clothing, etc. untill you discussed food. Please let me enjoy my vuchidige overnight kugel at deli 52 every once in a while
ReplyDeleteDeli 52 is gone closed
ReplyDeleteG
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Never Underestimate The Tenacious Yenta
ReplyDeleteLobatamize Underachieved Brains After Breakfast
you must have made one of two hanuches: sister has enough food or I don't eat in your house. V'dal
I think you are right on target, Hirshel! And I am tired of getting Chinese Auction catalogs in the mail, whose pages scream GASHMIUS!!!!!!!!!! They are constantly informing us that as much as we like to think so, if we don't have the jewelry, silver cases, fancy bookshelves and sheitlach, we are somehow less than perfect. If organizations want to make Chinese Auctions, then make them without the pictures that have everyone salivating over GASHMIUS!
ReplyDeleteMitzva Lefarsem. ALLE KREIZEN suffer from this. Unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteBest Circus Tent post yet. Except the ibbernacht keegl. You're right about beheime fleish though.
ReplyDeleteYou are talking to the wrong guy. As long as rebbes/rabonim will continue to be revered, and we will be costantly fed with pictures of them bathed in luxury, whether the fur-lined winter coats on a 35 year old chuchick, or the oversized wine flasks, or the black shiny gas-guzzling SUV and so on ad infinitum and ad nauseum, not to mention their summer vacation, winter vacation, and stam up-reeh in between, the average yungerman makes a kal-vachomer. If this rebbe, who is living off my money, lives like this, kol-she'ken I, who is living off my own (halevai) money, should avaddai be living like this. So as long as there is not real example being set, your are talking to the wall.
ReplyDeleteHirschel - I feel honored to have gotten a reply! No, I do not pay $6000, only $4000 (you get what you pay for). Still cheaper than sending my kids locally in BP to Day Camp. Besides those of us who don't live in Monsey deserve to have our kids see a blade of grass for a few weeks a year. No?
ReplyDeleteI live in a tiny house that I bought quite a few years ago, so my mortgage is manageable. And, no I am not rich.
I must admit though, that I am "rich" enough to not be eligible for Section 8, Food Stamps, etc.
Somehow, most of those described in the post are...
Haven't figured that one out yet.
The regular vile spitting snags are quietly standing by the side (uncharacteristically) and reveling in this chassidim-bashing post.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, it applies primarily to the Ungarishe and Galitziyane crowd (btw Satmar Rov zt"l was a perfect combination – no insult intended) to whom the snags have a shvachkeit - most prominent ones shtam from them as well .
But the main point here is that although the Snags generally do not lead this type of fargrebte lives – probably due to their tasteless Russian/Lithuanian/American genes – they are much less toiglech in Mase Umaton so they understandably cannot afford this expense, you will notice the Chazerishe attitude towards every Bal Habos who has the obligation to support Learning Torah SHELO mitcoh hadchak. Just take a tour of Lakewood and listen-in to the snagdishe shidduch scene, you will be very surprised by the great cover-up of the bein-hazmanim/bein-hasdorim/ town-house/fully loaded car/ no cheap clothing crowd all belonging to the Rambam’s Shevet Levi.
If we think that they are immune to the ongoing high-standard epidemic just give it a little time and the current crises will pale in comparison to what is in store for the next generation of the free-luch oilem. Hashem Yishmereinu. Amen.
Wow. You and the AntiTzig blogging on the same topic on the same day?
ReplyDeletehttp://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-orthodox-judaism-needs.html
coincidence? I don't think so..LOL
"The regular vile spitting snags are quietly standing by the side (uncharacteristically) and reveling in this chassidim-bashing post."
ReplyDeleteAny redifas hochomer we have is largely due to the recent Hungarian influence in the kodosh hakodoshim.
Oh and BTW in case anyone out there is looking for a nice quiet place to relax...a place with few or no visitors, A bloggish Moqom Hisbodedus for the virtual Breslovers among you please PLEASE check out my recently launched and nearly deserted blog
ReplyDeletehttp://innate-differences.blogspot.com/
Anonymous 4:00PM -
ReplyDelete" the Ungarishe and Galitziyane crowd ..........to whom the snags have a shvachkeit - most prominent ones shtam from them as well."
I am shtark mayche! The trait of being a snag is still alive and well among Litvishe Yidden.
"they are much less toiglech in Mase Umaton"
Maybe because they are more zohir in chayshen mishpot, mitzveis bein odom lachaveirei, staying away from sheker, ukidaymeh?
"Just take a tour of Lakewood..."
Not all Lakewood is real snags, many Ungarishe, Ungarishe Litvaks, and Chassidim there nowadays.
my parents came from Hungary they lived in abject poverty as did thousand of their brethren, this stereo type is really crazy.
ReplyDeleteAs for Reb Aron Roth and the levush of his Chasidim. Total misconception!
Reb Aaron while in Satmar and other places in Hungary never did he or his followers wear anything but regular alte schmate chasidic clothing as they do today. (those living in New York or elsewhere.
Reb Aron was a conservative and a fanatic about it. So he fought to hold on "in yerushalayim" to the old levush. For sure no body will argue that the levush Yerushalmi has its root in Hungary.
Tzig!
Me too! I vote this the best posting of the year!
But on a deeper sense we are in more trouble than we realize. These items and accoutrements listed in the post, are marketed by the same people we have show a different way of making parnasa.
Chas Ve'sholom if we all became BT overnight, and we stopped acquiring these items; 1000's yes THOUSANDS of heimishe parnasas will be gone.
There is such a thing as "the Heimishe industrial complex". Marketing -for example- and producing those "kroins" on the shteimels.
The problem is, that the fancy cookies - presented at every vort, sheva brochos, bar mitzva etc.- those that cost $2.50 EACH! are made by the wife of the (hungarian) kollel yungerman. What else do readers of this blog suggest she do? Go to college and study the ecology of the planet saturn?
In my estimation this "complex" employs the bulk of heimishe households. No easy solution comes to mind and its really sad.
Yosef 718
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe regular vile spitting snags are quietly standing by the side (uncharacteristically) and reveling in this chassidim-bashing post.
Firstly, it applies primarily to the Ungarishe and Galitziyane crowd (btw Satmar Rov zt"l was a perfect combination – no insult intended) to whom the snags have a shvachkeit - most prominent ones shtam from them as well .
You're using the conspicuous materialism of the hunkies and galitzianers as the source of the problem. While everyone here is dissing the escalades, aturas, country homes, $2.50 custom cookies (that taste like ---- IMHO), this is only the surface of the problem that sticks out. The bigger issue is the cost of living, sending kids to sems, supporting kolel aidims, and on these things the lakewood crowd (and Chabad) is in much deeper mud than the chassidishe. In pure $$$, these are much bigger expenses and are a big part of the shidduch crisis, kids going off, etc.
These posts got started due to parshas spinka, and that happened due to the cost of running moisdos. Since by the chassidishe they won't charge $9,000 a kid, the moisdos have to make it up and we get spinka. In lakewood and chabad the moisos raisen der hoit from the parents, the next gen picks up the feelings and you get all the crisis that they are facing.
V'yech l'harich and IY"H one day I'll do it.
The answer is to set up a community like the Armish...somewhere far from suburbia.
ReplyDeleteDon't take money from the government for welfare, grow your own vegetables and make your own clothes etc.
The problem with Kiryas Joel and Sver Town is that they want all the comforts of the city including fancy furniture etc on a kollel salary....
A second solution is to be a lot tougher on kollelim. Someone who comes late or doesn't learn gets nothing. Soon the shvacher guys will leave of their own accord....they are only there to meet their bummy friends and collect their cheques....and publish a current list of kollel learners so the community can see who the choshuver yingerleit really are....
Anonymous 4:pm,
ReplyDelete"The regular vile spitting snags
are quietly standing by the side (uncharacteristically) and reveling in this chassidim-bashing post."
I'm moicheh!!!
I'm not standing on the side at all!
The fellow running this blog censors my posts, though they are far less vile than yours is.
You also know nothing about Lakewood for sure.Most probably nothing much about anything else either.
But hey, you are in good company with the rest of your group.
Yours truly
Anonymous Snag
For the record, in Lakewood, the 'alteshtut' area- the neighberhood around the yeshiva has many aprtment buildings and yeshiva apartments is still full to the brim (besides for the one fancy retirment/givrish luxury recent building that also has big mishpachos living there with no space).
ReplyDeleteA large percentage of the big houses are being built by those who, to quote the Lakewood adage, 'they moved into town and they don't even know where the yeshiva is'. There are, unfortunately, many of those. Those are the people, generally, who populate the fancy places (Circa for milchigs) and others. Not the echte yeshivaleit.
Remember that there are many quasi-chsidic shteiblach in Lakewood that is comprised of heimeshe alumni of the yeshiva... For the record, they aren't so fancy. The same values that attracted them to teh eyr HaTeyreh must still perculate even amongst those who, loy aleynu, had to join the workforce. (Or, 'go to work'; they don't generally have the 9-5's)
There are many yungerleit that don't have any money in savings and can barely put together food for Shabbos, especially not for kids clothing. Ironically, these same people contribute a lot to Yerushalaymir yidden who come buy. The motto is that 'I have what to eat this Shabbos' so I should give to someone else...
Not Brisk said...
ReplyDeleteThere are many yungerleit that don't have any money in savings and can barely put together food for Shabbos, especially not for kids clothing. Ironically, these same people contribute a lot to Yerushalaymir yidden who come buy. The motto is that 'I have what to eat this Shabbos' so I should give to someone else...
Thanks for making my point. Most of the "yeshivishe" crowd in lakewood live simple lives as you aptly described it. And when their kids want to go to yeshivas in EY, or worse sems, they are oif gehakte tzuris. If the lakewood life would stay in lakewood, it would be an ideal situation. Today due to ouside pressures, it doesn't work and after 15 yrs in kollel, most guys are left gasping for air. And when shidduchim start, everyone is looking for a sugar daddy for their son/daughter.
B"H for the most part the chase for grubbe gashmius has skipped over lakewood, but they've got major problems with funding chinuch, shidduchim, sems, etc.
Lets all have bitochan and stop worrying for Hashem
ReplyDeleteBitachon that He yisborakh will supply ALL of us with lifestyles of the rich and famous?
ReplyDeleteWhat manner of bitachon is that?
Tzig is right. Thsi ain't no Shevet Levi setup.
NB-
ReplyDeletewell kudos to the serious Bnei Torah who are living soartan lives.
Still when considering the realities of the rest of the frum world all around them isn't it narcicistic or at least finacially irresponsible to learn for 15 years knowing what gehkta Tzuris it'll put not just yourself, but your kids in?
Maybe after 6-8 years it's time to reconsider and if the dream shtelleh isn't there then start working.
haven't Jesih parents sacrificed for Jewish children from timew immemorial? the current system strikes me as not just relying on ones father FIL and wife for support but on your children as well.
And that doesn't seem right fair or particularly hailig.
Bray of Fundie
ReplyDeleteAfilo eved loretz lefonoiev,is a mitzva for Tzedaka, then hashem would to the minimum
Lubavitchers do it the smart way.They set up Chabad Houses worldwide,they just set up a second Chabad center in Greece! Anyway, it's good parnoseh if you know what you are doing, if you don't it's a job that pays the bills.
ReplyDeleteSo we have great p.r for Lubavitch,readeaming of the sparks, from places not touched by Chabad, and "ve'od vehu haikor" parnoseh for thousands of families.
Vus iz schlecht??
n.b Can someone explain to me why the Rebbe always added after reason number one "ve'od vehu hoikor" for reason number two.Usually, doesen't one think that reason number 1 is the "main" reason?And if you add "veoid" doesen't is sound that it's NOT the main reason?If so why not make it simple:Main reason given as number one, if you want to add a reason just say "ve'od".In my limited experience of learning I don't recall Rishonim or others using such cumbersome and anti intuitive language.
Umesaymim betov
Anony...
ReplyDeleteHere's the Rambam
יא [יג] ולא שבט לוי בלבד, אלא כל איש ואיש מכל באי העולם אשר נדבה רוחו אותו והבינו מדעו להיבדל לעמוד לפני ה' לשרתו ולעובדו לדעה את ה', והלך ישר כמו שעשהו האלוהים, ופרק מעל צווארו עול החשבונות הרבים אשר ביקשו בני האדם--הרי זה נתקדש קודש קודשים, ויהיה ה' חלקו ונחלתו לעולם ולעולמי עולמים; ויזכה לו בעולם הזה דבר המספיק לו, כמו שזיכה לכוהנים וללויים. הרי דויד אומר "ה', מנת חלקי וכוסי--אתה, תומיך גורלי
A. Do you really think that when the Rambam wrote דבר המספיק לו he was referring to a horse and valet? That wouldn't be anything like what we know about the spartan lifestyles of the Kohanim and Levi'im now would it? ehlah mai...
B. You want to say that the Aibershter will give a braiterer parnussa to those who have NOT been ופרק מעל צווארו עול החשבונות הרבים אשר ביקשו בני האדם than those who have? Sorry I'm not buying what you are selling.
C. Although we know the Aibershter "keeps Mitzvos" I think that a reasonable argument can be made that when it comes to Tzedaka that's davka something He kavayokhol left for us to do in His stead. Famous moshol from the gemora in Bava Basra about the Kings son stuck b'Bais HoAsurim. So don't bring me rayas form sus lirkov olov v'eved lorutz l'fonov...That's on us,NOT onthe Aibershter.
Chareidei Crazy Concerning Corvettes:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/09/MT031955UR.DTL&type=autos
Having grown up on the 'old school' type of shlichus this mentality is totally foreign to me and makes me cringe. You don't HAVE to have a 15,000 dining room set and 6,000 bedroom set the minute you get married. Buy something simple, go to work and eventually you might be able to afford your kitschy overdone wannabe BP furniture that is just like your mother's and cousin's and most importantly, your neighbors!
ReplyDeleteThe Bray..
ReplyDeleteDovor hamaspik the way I learned it, is not in the sense of Histapkes Bemiut.but he will get him a parnosa that will give him parnossa with not much physical work as having Real Estate, that he shouldn't be occupied with labor, and his head should be free for limud hatorah, close to the Rambams illustration of Yemois Hamoshiach,I think the Radvaz explains it my way,If I am mistaken let hashem forgive me , since I don't have the Radvaz in front of me.
Zalman
ReplyDeleteyour shlichus utopia is far from reality,
For most it is hard work with not much materialistic gains.
Anon 3:48
ReplyDeleteYour description of shlichus sounds much like the average joes job, which one is lucky to have today.
Where did I describe it as "utopia"?
All I said is that you can do well,if you know what you are doing.If you are not particularly good at it at least you have a job that pays the bills.
Shucks, was that so hard to understand??
Bray
ReplyDeleteJust checked,the Radvaz explains that he will have a parnosa and not throw himself on the tzibur,which explain to me why yeshiva liet dont like this radvaz, See Briesh in Mishmanei Horatz on Sotah since they are using this Rambam for a excuse to sit and learn based on handouts of the tzibur with according the rambam is ossur betachlis.
Briesh in Mishmanei Horatz
ReplyDelete????? mah Zeh???
to zalman,
ReplyDeleteas a shliach who is bh managing to pay the bills bdoichek and help out some of my friends from maaser;
where do u get that shlichus pays the bills?
some manage quite well and expand and hire other shluchim etc but very many are barely putting food on the table and fighting to keep a roof over their heads, and in between we have many who living bedachkus