Here's another version, on page 70 of "Prophetic Witness."
Wednesday, November 4, 2009
נאר מיט שמחה
Read from page 109, the paragraph that starts with "Sam." It's AJH telling a story that happened to him as a youngster in Warsaw. It tells us a lot about the mindset of Chassidim in those days. I'm not sure which "Itchi Meir" this is; if it's the one and only. It seems like in the old days being BeSimcheh was THE most important thing, no matter what it took, and the money wasn't for bread and water, or even rent, it was for LATIN AND POLISH lessons!!! Yet misnagdim in those days didn't seem to have a problem with that, unless maybe they had no idea. They all sat together at the Knessiah Gedolahs and redt in lernen, I imagine. But somehow Heschel thought that Finkelstein and Lieberman, both Litvaks who may or may not have been Shomrei Shabbos BeTachlis themselves, - so they tell me that Lieberman was, I should've known that - would never understand the story and how it saved him for Judaism...
Here's another version, on page 70 of "Prophetic Witness."
Here's another version, on page 70 of "Prophetic Witness."
I doubt such a story would happen by "di frumer" today, even on a Sunday
ReplyDeleteTzig,
ReplyDeleteYou have to rewrite the post because your point with misnagdim is totally not understood.
What were you trying to say?
Hershel
ReplyDeleteThere are too many talmidim Sheloi Shimshi Kol Tzorchom on your site , and they will go wild on this story, all hell is going loose now, what amazes me from the story that it happened from A sharfer Kotzker Chosid, not some Amoshinover/Vorker chossid
This story sounds fishy.
ReplyDeleteWhy couldn't Itche Meir just tell him that after shabbos he would give him money??
Anyway it does not tell anybody about the "mindset" of chasidim.It's one story with the guy telling it quite biased .From here to build a whole story that though Snag rabbonim knew about this "mindset" they still sat at the Knesiya hAGDOILES with Chasidim is such a s-t-r-e-c-h.
It actually tells one more about the childish mindset of the blogger
Tzig I don't think you want to go there.
ReplyDeleteFinklestein was Shomer Shabbos, and R Shaul Liberman was a lot more than just that.
I have no question that that the Litvacks of JTS were more loyal to Halacha than the "Chasidish" one was.
In the same book vol.2, it is written that Heschel made an egalitarian Bat Mitzvah for his daughter to the chagrin of the rest of the JTS staff. He couldn't make it in JTS (the only minyan there at the time had separate seating), asd had it in Conservative shul, and the JTS chevre wouldn't go.
According to "Saul Liberman and the Orthodox" by Marc Shapiro, the Rebbe told someone it was permitted to teach at JTS as long as Lieberman was there. He didn't mention Heschel.
Tzig. One needs to understand who Heschel was and how his mind worked. Think of Fischel Schneersohn,
ReplyDeleteHis writings are not academic or even factual, he was a Romantic and a poet. Men darf nit glayben altz voz er shreibt.
He had a personal agenda to create a Chassidic experience with the spirit but without the intense frumkayt.Perhaps a tad like Martin Buber.Later on Zalman Schachter and Reb Shlomo were involved in efforts that were alike but also different.
I like Heschel, but I know that he was a "poet" a writer not a writer of memoirs.Read his 2 volumes in Yiddish about the Kocker and you will see what I mean.
Certainly the Rabbi Itze mayer levin of Ger Agudas israel was not the man involved. No son in law of the Imre Emes would act like this. And in my opinion his calling this man Itche Mayer gives it all away that was the name Lithuanian and non Hassidic Jews aplied to all Warsaw Chassiidm ( who they considered chnokes)like a Yoeli today. Heschel was attemting to create a portrait of what he saw as the ikor of Hasidism.
May I say to Heschel what he said about Ish HaHalacha -- Lo haya velo Nivro.
Perhaps we ought to forget about the facts and think about the meaning involved.
Mul Hoainom,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct that Lieberman was a stringent shomer shabbos, (what do you want from the Tzig he is A spinker boy of BP with a principal as the Glugover Rov)Finkelstien I can not vet on his Shmiras Hamitzvahs, But Heschels point is that a misnaged does not get the depth of the 3, Oiraisee Vkb"h Veyisroel Chad, so he will not digest a story like that.
For the record the Rebbe wrote to Dr. Velvel Greene that Heschel was a erliche Yid or something like that and I am certain the Rebbe was correct.
ReplyDeleteThere is another aspect here.
ReplyDeleteThis also should indicate that Gerer Hasidim used the controversial Eruv of Warsaw.
Yosef718
what do you want from the Tzig? he is A spinker boy of BP with a principal as the Glugover Rov
ReplyDeleteguilty as charged!!
Gershy
ReplyDeletewhat did you not understand?
Schneur
ReplyDeletea graysen dank far di hartzige verter. that was the best and most informative thing that could be said about the subject.
שניאור-
ReplyDeleteהעובדא הקוצקאי לא נזכר בזכרונותיו כי אם נזכר ע"י תלמידו ששמע מפיו ואין בו שמץ מאגדת רבב"ח
ב. החסיד הנז´ בודאי אינו רי"ם לוין שאין לו מקום בין הנותנים מכיסם קל וחומר ביומא דשבתא
ג. השל אינו נמנה בין הכותבים דברי הזיות ועורבא פרח אלא כתיאולוג-פילוסף מעמיק והוגה דעות בדרך פיוטי ודוקא בפר קוצק יוכיח שהוא היחיד שמקרב דברי הקוצקאי אל השכל ומפענח חידותיו הצפונות ואינו מפטפט כמו כל הביוגרופים בדברי שטות והבל רוח
Lieberman as unbelievable as it sounds had a relationship with the Rebbe and Lubavitch, he may have even had a close relationship with the Rebbe, he left over a yerusha to Lubavitch,I think it was seforim(he did not leave zera shel kayomo),I'm sure Schneour can fill in the details.There are letters from the Rebbe to him too if I'm not mistaken.
ReplyDeleteIt would seem quite unbelievable that there would be a relationship between the Rebbe and Lieberman because he was a real Lutvack , talmid of Slabodka, cousin to the Chazon Ish and a very brilliant man.He apparently had nothing with chasides or chasidim.It could be that the Rebbe reached out to him while the yeshiva world abandoned him?
Don't know,now it's Schneours turn to fill us in.
Btw,Duved Weiss, today Halivny-wEISS a brilliant young boy at the time who came out of Siget and was wanted by Satmar,Chaim Berlin etc ended up as Liebermans chavrusa in JTS
קליפ: ליפא שמעלצער זינגט ערשטע מאל ביי א חתונה ביי די 8 יאר
ReplyDeletehttp://www.yideotube.com/2009/11/first-performance-of-lipa-schmeltzer-8.html
Tsiker zis!!!
Abrabanel. Thanks for your comments. Heschel's first published works was a book of poetry in Yiddish "Shem Hameforush". Heschel was not an empty vessel, he was a poet . A man of great vision, imagination and lofty ideas. But he was not your classic academic scholar.
ReplyDeleteOf course he knew what Kock was more than many academic scholars, but his 2 volumes are far from serious scholarship.
I find it hard to believe that the Rebbe had any room for compromise with JTS. All these men as fine as they were in their private lives were trainng generations of Conservative rabbis (and these teachers knew this , but the money and kavod was good - really good)who were adamant in destroying Orthodoxy especially in the period of 1945-1970, when the Conservatives declared war on Mechizoth and the classic orthodox shul in America.In essence the Rashal, Halivni, Dimitrowsky and others gave their hechsher on this institution. In shevsch Praise of Hungarian Jewry no Orthodox rav in Hungary taught at the Budapest Seminary which trained Neolog rabbiner.. It was treyf passul even if they paid a nice salary.
Jechiel
ReplyDeleteIs Duvid Halivne(Wiess) A Vishiver einikel? or Sil in that family? He left the Seminary, they became to Goyish for him, issues like Peta or Global Warming are more important then a Rahi in Bava Kama
Schneur
ReplyDeleteI think Dr Kahout Of the Oruch Hasholem taught in the Pest seminar, he was Shomer Torah
anon 12:07
ReplyDeleteSee what we wrote about Weiss here
Hey,Hirshel the blog back then had quite a spirited opposition!
ReplyDeleteA bit more interesting than lately, maybe just some exhaustion?More non Chabad non-yes-men at the time?
What happened in the end of the debate about "where are the frum Schneersons"?
Lubavitchers, especially the assinine gevorener species love stories true or not of other non Lubavitcher chasidim who disrespect the sanctity of halacha in the name of "chasides".This way they can "prove" that they are not the only ones who disregard the authority of Shulchan Oruch.
ReplyDeleteExamples?Many, but knowing this blog and it's blogger,I'd be wasting my time trying to post examples, it would never have a chance of passing the goon at the "door"
Chaim
ReplyDeleteyou're free to remove your foot from your mouth, now...
Chaim
ReplyDeleteplease start counting at least to 5,I will help you with 1, the chabad chassidim are Rachmono Litzlan not sleeping in sukka, now go ahead,
It tells us a lot about the mindset of Chassidim in those days
ReplyDeleteIt tells us alot about the mindset of one Itche Mayer. The fact that AJH, a 14-15 year old young man, growing up in a chassidishe home, davening in a chassidishe shtibel was either horified or astonished tells me that this kind of behavior was far from normal.
heschel couldnt get a job by revel so he went conservative... nebach, a shud auf a derhoibene neshoma un rebbbushe kind to boot
ReplyDeleteשניאור-
ReplyDeleteא. כדאי לציין עוד ספרים שנכתבו ע"י השל כמו תורה מן השמים ועל הרמב"ם(בגרמנית) ועוד הרבה שהם דוקא באופן אקדמאי. וכאן המקום שאני מתפלא הרבה מאוד מהשל רב גווניו ושלל צבעיו במחשבת חסידות, פלוסופיה, שירה. שולט בהרבה שפות וכו
ב. השל בודאי שלא הלך לסמינר לקבוץ הון או רדיפת הכבוד, כפי שאנו רואים שהשפיל א"ע לבני אהלי קדר ועוד ועוד
ג. מאוד יפלא שאתה מעדיף בני הגר שלא הלכו אחרי יצרם בבודפשט מבני הסמינר. אולי כבודו שכח מהרב אברהם סופר בן ההתעוררות תשובה מערלוי מהדיר המאירי שהיה ממעתיקי השמועה הרבה שנים בסמינר שכטר והרביץ שיעורי תורה לבחורים ובתולות ביחד וכשהוכיחו אותו ע"כ ענה ואמר "ירדתי לאמריקה בבגדים סרוחים ובמכנסיים מטולאים וקרועים ולא היו משגיחין בי עד שבאו תלמידי הסמינר שצמאו לדברי תורה והושיבו אותי על כני בין התלמידים ונתנו מלחמם והונם" כפי הראוי לבר אוריין ובר אבהן
ג. אשמח מאוד אם כבודו יודע על איזה קשרים בין הרבי והשל כיון ששניהם מגזע היחש, מתנהג בחסידת, וממפיצי תורת הרמב"ם. אפי´ שגבה טורא ביניהם א"א להתעלם מהעובדות
schneur-Lieberman was independently wealthy (he made a killling on the stock market) so I'm pretty sure that money is not what kept him at JTS. The fact is that YC/RIETS has always used the standard Yeshivish Derech in learning, and as such Lieberman critical Talmud had no place there. Moerover being at JTS gave him access to כתבי יד.
ReplyDeleteI knew a tremendous Talmid Chachom from Yerusilayim who remembered Lieberman from Eretz Yisroel. Firstly, he absolutely refused to believe that Lieberman was actually Conservative, or believed in there movement in any way. He stated that 1.) I would be shocked at the big names who sent in their resumes for the job, and 2.) Lieberman’s only interest was obtaining accesses to the manuscripts in the JTS collection. I’m not endorsing this view, just repeating it.
ReplyDeleteHoe did Reb Shaul become rich ? Did he arrive wealthy from Jerusalem ? Did he arrive a gvir from Kossava in Lita ? His salary at JTS was hefty and as a pikaech he invested wisely in the MARKET and made even more money. I believe Rav Noach Chodesh a prominent lawyer in NYC and the Bronx was his executor.
ReplyDeleteHe went to JTS for the kevod,money , comfort etc. He had sumers off and lots of time to write and study. Unlike a rosh yeshiva he had no fund raising, no chidushim to deliver just teach a bunch of ex YC people some Talmud. As far as the kisve yados etc , people used the JTS library and used the collections without formal affilaition that is they were private researchers.. Reb Shaul taught there davened in their shul which even in the best of days had no mechitza , only sepaarte seating.
For the kavod of those who resisted the temptation of JTS and there were many who got the offer... we must not condone the act of joining that institution.
Abrabanel.Heschel was not your ordinary dry academic . He had an agenda and was very involved spiritually in his work.If you look at kaplan's book you will see what I mean.
ReplyDelete2.By joining the civil rights movement front and center, Heschel became the most prominenet Jewish spiritual leader in America, and was invited to speak all over including non jewish forums, and this shall we say helped the sale of his books and name. he made much money and fame from these activities. I believe he was committed to the fight for Civil Rights, but he also played to the crowd.
Firstly I was not speaking about Hungarian jews joining JTS after the War. I was talking about Hungaraian Orthodox rabbonim joining the Budapest Seminary, to the best of my knowledge no one did that. Of course all the graduates were fromer yeshiva boys, but no impt rabbi decided to teach in the Budapest school.As far as I know Scheiber although affiliated with JTS did in fact not teach there. He was an officail reearcher there and may have taught some special seminars. I understand that he too was friendly with the Lubavitcher rebbe. Liberman was the RECTOR of the rabbinical seminary at JTS, very different roles.I believe he signed off on all their rabbinical diplomas.
I no of no connnection between the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe and heschel although I imagine they knew each other in Berlin. Heschel was a philospher , the rebbe a man of scince, heschle was a dreamer, the rebbe a man of action, Heschel was a liberal visionary, the Rebbe was clearly influenced by other trends in the political spectrum.