If you know where that line comes from you know. I say this in regards to what transpired last week in Yerushalayim, where Rav Elyashiv broke protocol and traveled to Kiryat Belz to be the sandek for Aron Mordche Rokeach's son. The air was thick with excitement. "The Belzer Rebbe wants Shoolim with everybody," they said. "He's the greatest Roydif Shoolim of all time." Far be it from me to pick his brain and try and figure out what was behind this invite, and far be it from me to figure out why Rav Elyashiv went to the bris when he doesn't go to most of his eyniklach's simches anymore - there's just too many of them! What I would like to address is the notion as if all's well now, as if all is forgotten, and we all have mutual respect for each other, as is evidenced by the sanduko'us kibbud we just witnessed. And let me make myself perfectly clear here: I'm not advocating a perpetual cold war against the Litvishe krayzen, and I'm not upset that he "sold out" the chassidim here, and I'm not rehashing the Degel HaTorah fiasco of 5749. Not at all. I'm just questioning the notion that all's well in la-la land and that we all love each other and respect each other.
In a nutshell: When the Belzer Rebbe will be invited to Rav Elyashiv's grandson's bris then we'll know that we made progress. Until then it's all about the chassidim not being very sure of themselves and where they're heading. I'm not knocking what the BR built up and accomplished over the years, but we've been seeing a bit much of that these last years, and almost all of it one-sided - where the Litvishe are the ones being honored. They might be very deserving of it, but it's not like there's mutual respect here, is what I'm saying. Maybe the Chassidishe Rebbes are not deserving of it, I'm not the one to say here, but the fact is that the reciprocity of respect isn't there. So before you do the jitterbug over this nice piece of news remember what the Tzig told you: it's time that the other side shows a little appreciation and invites - say, Reb Srooltche Hager to have a Brochoh Achritteh at Rav Chaim Kanievski's next grandson's wedding.
In EY it has a lot to do with political power.....The more influence the Belzer can gain through sucking up to the real gedoylim....the more power he gets in Israeli politics, the more
ReplyDeleteHe wants acceptability for Machzikei Hadas heachsher (which is known as the shvachest of chareidi hechsherim in EY).....
It all translates into dollars and cents for the mosdos....the more money he can demand from the government
It is well known that the Klausenbeger Rebbe wanted the Belzer for an eidim but turned him down when he refused to sit in kollel for five years first..... has anyone ever heard a torah or sicha from the Belzer ?
Put simply...he has built a malchus of torah which although impressive has nothing to do with pre-war Belz and is known as the place to go for those looking for a chassidus which doesn't demand as much as others and gives you a sense of belonging......as well as those cool clothes....
I have never heard anyone speak about the Belzer's avodas hatefile, hasmada in learning, bitul to real gedolim....or tife toires.....or producing people with a real havana in chassidus...
He is known for being a CEO not for being a real gadol batora or chassidus....He was always too busy building his malchus to do any of that.....
Has anyone outside Belz ever claimed he is anyhting but a clever man with terrific foresite and strategy...?
The difference is the Litvishe believe respect has to be earned....they don't give it just because you wear a kolpik and groan a lot when davening....
ReplyDeletePoor Ahron Mordechai has already got misnagdim in Belz due to never being seen learning....
He never had a childhood and without torah it may all crumble under him.....that is if his father's chassidim really need a Rebbe who can learn....or just a figurehead....
did you realize that maybe rav elyashiv is close to 100 or was that do hard for you to comprehend.
ReplyDeleteand did your rebbe ever go to anybody?
ReplyDeleteAlthough i agree with your point, i do see some connection with this whole thing with the BElze kreiz!
ReplyDeleteWe all knkow that that rav shach was very close to him.....
I think he does every thing in his power to be good with them and on thier right side, just to show that he can do it all!
I sense some serious insecurity over there!
I see az ess est dech oof!
ReplyDeleteWhat an imfarginner you are!
You like when yidden fight, eh?
You know that when Chasidim and olom hayeshivas are at peace Lubavitch have to tow the Yiddishe line without any "discounts" as kaveyochol being the trggers of Derech Ha'Besht.
Vus Derech Habesht,Vi Derech HaBesht?!!
The Belzer is a true Manhig, and we know that that is what is eating you up.
Nisht du vehr zol lachen
belz has the worlds record for swithing partners,,,ha-aidah ,hasidim ,litiem ,shas .hardalim ,porushim (family),,,
ReplyDeleteThe concept of yiddishe celebrities, while making inroads into the yeshivishe velt, is mostly a chasidishe concept. Once upon a time there was no Yated centerfold. After all, what is so exciting about a picture of an old man with a beat up wooden stick wearing a wrinkled black coat.
ReplyDelete"Once upon a time there was no Yated centerfold."
ReplyDeleteLipschutz copies things from Chassidim. Where do you think he got the centerfold picture section from? The Chassidishe press. He pushes Hassidishe minhogim like upsherin and having a godol do hanochas tefillin on a new wearer to his kilomar Litvishe readership via the centerfold. Why doesn't he have some Litvishe pride like the emeseh gedaylim and stop fahrfiring his readers?
Why is he going to KJ so much?
Other Chassidishe customs he pushes are bonfires and trips to Meron on lag baomer.
ReplyDeleteThere will be a din vicheshbon for his promoting these foreign customs in Kerem Beis Lita.
-Snag: perhaps it has to do with the fact that your average "Litvack" shtams from a Hungarian or Poilisher background . . .
ReplyDeleteHey Mottel -
ReplyDeleteVos hert zich?
Emes, zenen doh faran Ungarishe un Peylishe Litvaks (hey, there are plenty of non-Litvaks in Lubavitch nowadays too, by the way), but there are people from Litvishe opshtam (partially or fully - there have been many mixed marriages in recent times, like Litvak-Galitzianer, Litvak-Peylisher, Litvak-Yekke and even Litvak-Hungarian) as well, even if they may not be Lakewood lifers. R. Lipschutz himself, however, is a real Litvak, and he should know and act better, un zol opheren farfihren di Litvishe eylem.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are BT's from Litvishe opshtam and stam people who don't know minhogim, who can be negatively influenced by his centerfold (a friend calls it the comics).
People associate Lipschutz's Yoseid with Moreinu Rav Schach ztvk"l, even though it's really a private business....Maybe they should actually make him give up the name Yoseid. Let him call it something else.
Good post, good points, major insecurities there, no doubt.
ReplyDeleteWith all that, the Belzer is by far the most successful rebbe in terms of allegiance and loyalty of his people, the chinuch there is far more sucessful than any other chassidus, with a barely existent drop-out rate, satmar and chabad lose like fifteen percent.
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteHow come Chabad actually layne, as opposed to Chasidim who just go through the motions? Is it because of the Snag influence back home (like Satmar in Lakewood that actualy layne)?
stam a story: a guy got to the amud and davened nusach sfard (in an Ashkenaz shul). Someone went over to him and slapped him. The Rov told him: slapping a Yid is also nusach sfard, vedal. (dunno about Nusach Ari)
Enjoy life and remember that even the esrog has maylos over the aruvuah, vedal.
Rav Steinman has invited the Gerrer Rebbe along on many of his trips.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDelete"and did your rebbe ever go to anybody?"
He did not spend his life cruising around visiting dignitaries with nonsense small talk on expansive fruit decanter. He believed he had a mission in his life.
Lieby
ReplyDelete"The Belzer is a true Manhig, and we know that that is what is eating you up.
Nisht du vehr zol lachen
you are so right, ez is nisht do ver zo lachen, the belzer is the "true" manhig,and the true rodef sholem.
My father does not have to make peace at his last years of his life with no one, since he never ever had a ego as this guy had by the 18, or a lousy mouth(Pisk) as this guy, the must I can say on this Rokeach/Gluck guy that he a succesful Rosh Hakohol.
Snag,
ReplyDeleteThe "real" litvishe pride was extinguished when the Biggest Maran of all Marans invented a Ben Torah party, basically meaning being a ben torah with no torah, by affiliation only. Its is ironic that he was alarmed by no other then a a Chassidisher Einikel Rav Dov Landau Rosh Yeshivas Salabodke in his famous letter, alarming that he is killing the inner fabric of the Misnagdisher Velt. Obviously Landau was ostracized by the Maran Goons
- Tzig bemchilas kevodcho Harama - Sometimes I wonder if you read your own comments. So you are "upset" over the Belzer kibud for rav Elyashev. And you claim its one sided the Chassidim being the givers to use rav Dessler's leshonos,, have you forgotten about your own posting about the Lakewood asifa for the Zaddik hador Sholom Mordecahi Ben Maryasha. I think the era of good of good feelings is mutual.. and the lakewood asifa and the Yated's support of SMR is beyond the call of duty. By the way will Chabad contribute to Weinstein's defense fund after all he too did nothing wrong either.
ReplyDeleteThe truth lies somewhere as follows.
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashivs right hand man is R Yosef Efrati.
R Efrati, is a Belzer, being the [son and] grandson of fervent Belzer Chassidim "fun der heim"
It is well known in Yerusholayim that R Efrati is positioning himself for a leadership role ( for now, and for uber Hundred und Tzvantzig Yahr of Rav Elyashiv). He is especially looking for support in order to topple the hold the Eidah has in the Kashrus field. He went all out to deliver Rav Elyashiv to the Belzer, who now owe him a tremendous payback.
As they say "V'Hamyven Yuvin"
Now you know the rest of the story
Snag I agree with your assesment of the curent state of the Litvishe world. We need a rav hamburger to first compile the Litvishe minhogim . We need to return to our heimishe pronunciation of Hebrew and Yiddish and we need to stop copying minhogim that few Yidden in Lita observed like Mezizah bepeh, Opsherin,huge hats the size of an air craft carrier, Mofsim long oeyoth, sloppy dress,and segulos etc etc.
ReplyDeleteAll these minhogim are fine(and yechie segula in Lita were also shayech to some of these inyonim) but the mehus of Lita was not in them , Litvishe yidden studied, were aginst cheap PR,everything was quiet, little kanaus ,it was all behatznes leches, no redifa for the tastiest food and the shinest furniture , this custom is reserved for others. And as crazy as it seems Chabad was characterized by the same techunos (I will repeat for the hundreth time in 1939 95% OF ALL Chabad people were of Litvishe (White Russian ) background.-study, hatznea leches and pnumius , pashtus,and a loathing of gashmius. But it looks that the other country has taken over . Sometimes in a dream or beheketz I wonder what orthodoxy would look like today if all the great yeshivas and 50% of lithuanian rabbonim and Jews survived the war ? It would look much more normal. Al eleh ani boch...
ELULE SHRAIT MI LO YIRAH!
ReplyDeleteelul is roshei teives "alle litvaks verren liluvim" vda"l
Anon,
ReplyDeleteMaybe I"m Mistaking, but I think that Efrati is a Rebbisher Einikel included the first Belzer Rov
Schneur,
ReplyDelete"Mezizah bepeh,"
a big chunk of the rabonim that signed up for Meziza Bpeh (printed in Sdie Chemed) were Russian and Lithuanian Rabonim
Scneur
ReplyDelete"Mofsim"
did u ever of the dybuk that was removed by the Chofetz chaim of Radin?(last time I checked Radin was in the Lita)as was told by the Litvak Rav Wasserman of Branovitz? where is that town? in the Karpatrus?
or did u ever hear of the Mofsim of the Tzadik of Ushmin?
What irks me about this belzer rov,
ReplyDeleteEverything is good and fine, that Rav Elyashev is 1 of the poskie hador,even tough his teshuvas that are printed so far are very mediocre, ordinary, but I have emuna that 1 day we will be zoche to see the light. His grandfathers lived in a era of the real gedolie Yisroel in Galicia, as the Yeshuas Yakov, Shoal Umieshiv,Bies Yitzchok real torah giants, why didn"t they ever think to give Sandak to any of them? they had hundreds of Einiklech, the hoif in belz was huge,what pushes this 60 year old kid to change his allegiance every few months?it seems like a person not comfortable in his his own skin, immature, non stable.
Schneur,
ReplyDeleteI have regards from an old underling of yours. Please send me a way you can be contacted to yehupitz@gmail.com .
Thank you
What is the chidush here? That the Belzer is insecure? Old hat. That Rav Elyashuv is controlled by his shtib mentshn? oich mir a chidesh.
ReplyDeleteThe Belzer chaleshes for recognition because despite all his achievements he isn't taken seriously by those who count. That is either the gor chasidishe who are Satmer inclined or by the litvisher velt. He tries for 'sholem' with Satmer and they continuously rebuff him and with the litvaks, well we all know how the Degel shiduch ended.
He tried hard to have Rav Elyashuv at his grandson's bar mitzvah last Ador but he didn't turn up. There was a high speed chase round town before Pesach when the Belzer's car tried to catch up with Rav Elyashuv and in the end they met up because the Belzer's car cut him in and brought him to a halt.
Rav Efrati is close to Belz. However it is one that I think Belz needs Efrati more than vice versa. Recently when Efrati decided to prohibit shabbos lifts a belzer delegation went to persuade him to change his mind. The delegation included Rav Chaim Dovid Shovaks who is a serious Belzer talmid chochom with a knowledge in the halachik aspects of electricity. Yet you should see the photo of the Belzers sitting at the end of his desk with Efrati arrogantly at the head of the table as if they're petitioning him for a favour.
It is worth noting that the Belzer and Rav Elyashuv have been living within a couple of miles of each other for the last 40 years or so and it is only very recently that they even met for a one to one. Given that the Belzer is some 40 years younger than him you may ask where has he been all this time. And if Rav Elyashuv holds the Belzer in such esteem why did he have to turn 100 before he attended one of his simches.
So raboisay this is point scoring: the Belzer saying to his chasidim, oylem I can score big. Look what I can deliver. In the past it's been movie cameras at his tish, helicopter protection on his '82 visit to Brooklyn, ridiculing all and sundry over the years and now that he's coming to old age it's sucking up to the photogenic gedoilim. Last time he delivered Rav Wosner this time it's Rav Elyashuv. Who knows perhaps next time it might be Aron Teitelbaum. One never knows with him though Aron is too a grudging heart to fargin him a score like that.
Gevezener Belzer
ReplyDeleteYour points are well taken, he is considered the architect of the renewal of Belz, but he has no legacy of Avodas Hashem, Lomdus,Baal Midois as Reb Tzvi Mier or reb Mottel Silver, Erlanger and the nu Rachmistrivker that just in a few days being Rebbe achieved immediately a name as a oved, and the Belzer is getting no where, being professional by printing the most Chassidic professional sidur does not bring you a Neshoma of a real Mevakesh (in Chassidic lingo) his BIL Reb Yisroel Hager, who has no psuedo sophisticated ambitions, gained in peoples heart a certain affinity, You can see his soul thru and thru with real ahavas hashem and ahavas yisroel, Maybe he does not say the words in Nakdishoch as correct as the neo Belzer Siddur, But his Bren at Nakdishoch is real.
Anon,
ReplyDelete"and did your rebbe ever go to anybody?"
He did not spend his life cruising around visiting dignitaries with nonsense small talk on expansive fruit decanter. He believed he had a mission in his life.
his mission in life was to promote vayeardu kol avudachu Ilei
he ws instrumental nto make sure that everybody that has no self worth should come to him
malkiel always trips over his frock to give kavod to chasidim like R'aaron teitelbaum, r'osher weiss, r'avrumie schor....
ReplyDeleteYou never know, Reb Aron is his brother-in-law! Maybe he can get the Skverer too.
ReplyDeleteIt's not only the Belzers sucking up to the Litvisher.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?artID=56579
Having litivshe gedoylim at your simche comes relatively cheap since they don't require reciprocity at a simche in the way other rebbes would implicitly demand. So if the skverer or Arn T. were to attend they would expect a return visit to one of their simches in oif dem kenst di vartn.
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashuv's brigand may demand their own price but it's more subtle and easier to deny and so his attendance can be presented to the shvents as the poisek hador paying homage to the Ruv and walking in the proud footsteps of Mayor Koch O"h, Rav Shach, Nir Barkat, Rav Hirshprung vchulei vchulei.
Dovy
ReplyDeleteI feel your pain, but they are all much bigger Talmidie Chachomim then him, according to halacha he has to have derech eretz for them, their is no heter in the torah not to have derech eretz for a talmid chochem if he is a chosid
Rabbosai.
ReplyDelete1. Metzizah bepeh. Reb Chaim whose way of learning the other country people like to adopt said that if the mohel did metzizah bepeh he would throw him out of the house or shul. I spoke to a Yid a mohel here in the US I hope he still with us,who studied with the Vilner stodt mohel as an American bachur in the late 1930's and metzizah bepeh was NOT DONE in VILNa. My late father said that in his town Chassidim did do it. Clearly it was not one of the Yud Gimmel ikorim that got all the Rebbe contenders in their robes down to city hall.
Next I can tell from your spelling you have no idea who the OSHMENER RAV was . He was rav Mordecai Rosenblatt (and I will add you have no need to tell me who he was and maase tokfo) the rav of Oshmena and of Slonima gadol in learning and Gefes he was not a baba or a eynikel selling xrays of mezuzoth or cat scans of kesuvos or Pet scans of gittin or magic rings. REb Mordechele was a giant in learnign and as such was a poel yeshuoth. as i wrote these inyonnim were shayech to yechedi segula like the Chofetz chaim ,Reb Mordchele and few others, but what was the CC's gadlus that he allegedly was invovled in driving out a dybbuk or in writing the Mishna brura or sefer Chofetz chaim ? I am not against Yidden like reb Moshe ZTL or Yablach reb chaim K giving beroches but friend there is a big difference between that and magic rings and holy stones and kesuves and mezuzes and bebentchte knobel from all sorts of Babas and eyniklech.You read my comments but do not read them carefully as I said yechidei Segula did have a shaychus to soem of this inyonnim , but what the average rav in Lita because hew as an eynikel of some rav was a poel yeshuoth ?
anon wrote:
ReplyDelete"He did not spend his life cruising around visiting dignitaries with nonsense small talk on expansive fruit decanter. He believed he had a mission in his life."
He just spent his younger years in the holy cities of Berlin & Paris.
Moshe Yonah
ReplyDeleteyou are correct he was in Berlin etc.. but he still did not spent it on nonsense. Becoming a engineer to earn a decent clean living is the torah and menchlichkiet thing to do.
Schneur
ReplyDeleteI know that in the Lita that was very influenced by Modernity, stopped doing Metziza Bpeh, their is a teshuva in Shevet Halevi of Wosner, that he was by a bris with the Chazon Ish, and he told him in a unfortunate way that by us in the Lita they stopped doing it. But 99% of the Gedolim were against the change, Misnagdim and Chasidim, what is your source of Reb Chaim Brisker? does Brisk in Yerushliem do Metzitza Bpeh? they are a very Mesora oriented family.
Schneur,
ReplyDeleteI don"t understand your whining, the biggest Baba in our era is Reb Chaim Kanievsky,all others are considered chalatan.
I won't comment on the belz issue, for all I care Tzig should be sandek next time... (Didn't you detect a tinge of jealousy in his post...?)
ReplyDeleteBut could someone
Enlighten me what's going on with Schneur, this guy takes himself mighty serious.
Comes across a bit like Alvine Greene...
He has a דעה on everything and everyone, no bitul to anyone.
Can somone explain this phenomenon, שגעון גדלןת maybe?
anon 1:47pm
ReplyDeleteyou know what? you were just molid a new tayveh in me. It never ocurred to me until now, but now I would wanna be sandek by the next bris!
Thanks!
Schneur,
ReplyDeleteRYH blurred the lines of the Chussid and the Litvak well over half a century ago. This is not a new phenomenon. (Where is CBT when you need him?)
From the Poilisher upshtam, to Slabodka, to Rav Kook, to the spuddik...
His talmidim toe the same line. RSF, RYD, RAS, The Novominsker, RMS, vechulu vechulu….
The Litvaks in EY are just beginning to learn that the Chassidishe praverei is good for fundraising.
My source rabbi is Rabbi Dr. Joseph B. Soloveitchik his grandson.Who should I have bittul to ? To people who use annonymous as their name ? As such everything you write is basically begeder of a pashkvil , and I never heard of anyone being mevatel himself to an abizarayhu of a pashkvil writer ...
ReplyDeleteMay I also suggest to some of the people who read these blogs to use their vacation time and read John F. Kennedy's PROFILES IN COURAGE. Its an important book for todays frum people who have been trianed to think like sheep to read and to know what it means to have an opinion about various matters. Its available in paperback and can be read in several hours. Let that be your token contribution to Torah Im Derech eretz.
Anonymous 1:47PM :
ReplyDelete"Enlighten me what's going on with Schneur, this guy takes himself mighty serious.
Comes across a bit like Alvine Greene...
He has a דעה on everything and everyone"
He is one of the best commentators here, whereas his critic is bigeder of not even having a sheim here, vedal.
"this guy takes himself mighty serious."
Maybe it would be a good idea for others to be more serious too.
"He has a דעה on everything and everyone"
Like you and all other Yidden.
Shneur
ReplyDeleteI am not your Mashpia to ask for your bitul, as you know the briskers in Yerushiliem don"t buy the stories and facts of the Bostoner cousin,and it looks weird to me too that reb chaim should say that on a procedure that was performed on him, his father and grandfather. So I asked 2 questions, was Reb Chaim signature on the Kol Korie in Sdie Chemed? and if Brisk in Yerushiliem do Metzitza Bpeh? if u don"t know you are poter.
I will be eternally grateful to Shneur for his comments on Rabbi Shmaryahu Gourary, ZT"L.
ReplyDeletetHIS WOULDNT BE MUCH OF A BLOG WITHOUT SCHNEURS COMMENTS.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that he comments here and not many other places tells you alot about the worthiness of the blog...
ReplyDeleteTzig you hit it right on.
ReplyDeleteיעדעס ווארט איבער דעם בעלז'ער איז צוקער זיס אין ווארהאפטיג
Belz is in my blood for many generations. But he is a huge tragic historical figure of great success and great failure, of equal proportions.
Yes as was stated here before he is a good CEO (just lately) but what he and his followers crave and will never get, is popular 'reverence'. And Belz with no reverence is not Belz.
When a מקשה לילד or somebody who is being wheeled into a room for a catscan for a test on יענע מעשה asks to call a Tzadik for Tehilim. It might be Tosher Rebbe, Sekulen'er Rebbe or Reb Tzvi Meir.. But it ain't going to be Reb Berel'e Belzer!
Your reputation as a 'Belzer Rebbe in particular' starts and ends with what an אלטע באביטשקע believes about your personal tefilos.
But that part of his role was squandered by many years of Machiavellian behavior (he has a thing about Sandekous, when Reb Aron Mordechai was born he snubbed his shver and gave the kibud to the Bais Yisroel) his machinations in dealing with so many Rebbes and his own Alte Chasidim are legendary.
Yes he has a huge tzibur, but I get the feeling that he would trade off half his Chasidim for a 1/4 of the respect and 'reverence" that the Sekulen'er Rebbe has! If you don't believe/understand what I say, then come and see how 54th Street near 13th Ave, looks like 1 or 2AM and the people coming and waiting in line to get a Bracha from Sekulener Rebbe.
But the Sekulener has no Minyan to Daven! They beg people to come in sometimes to be משלים
Still I believe that the Belzer (and his Chasidim who know what the glory of Belz used to mean) craves this more than anything. This Shpeil with Rav Eliyashuv is just another manifestation of this craving. It just never works because it won't come from a 'plan', it comes from inside your soul, as has been pointed out by previous commentators.
(As an aside, I have a cousin in Lakewood who is well known huge Brisker and has a certain following - Is a real misnaged, but took his kids for a Brocha from the Sekulener and told me that many Briskers feel this way.)
And irony of ironies, if I will ever need a good tefilo I will make sure somebody gets my name into the Belzer Rebetzin's techinah. That itself -I am sure- drives him nuts! That's a for a separate post, Tzig!
Yosef 718
Point to consider:
ReplyDeleteWhile there were Litvishe Rabonim who staunchly defended the practice of metzitzah b'peh,
there were others who were not adamant regarding its practice, or downright opposed to it. In other circles there seems to be a universal opinion ,that it is mandatory.The following is m'pe hashmua; please don't ask for sources.
Rav Berel said that his father, in Brisk, would not allow metzitzah b'peh because of pikuach nefoshes. I, in Yerushalyim, aloow it for the same reason.
Reb Yossel
ReplyDeleteI thought your family are from a different chasidic court,not in the Galicia region
Anon
ReplyDeleteTnx for the Brisker info,and I am shocked, it probably is all related to the Brisker chidush by Yom Kippur that they are not Maikel, its the opposite they are Machmir in Hilchos Pikuech Nefesh,(I think its brought in Rav Zevins Ishim Veshitos)
But as you read the Sdie Chemed, you see Rabonim as reb Yosef the Shaviler Rov(in the Morning Shneur will say that I wrote this town name with mistakes) and Reb Dovid Friedman that are not considered of the more extreme camp of the Rabonim in the Lita, and they are so adamant against any new methods,and Reb Chaim is the Maikel.
Why didn't the Belzer Rebbe's mother ever come to Belz until the last year or two...
ReplyDeleteShe did not even come to her great grand children's brisn until the last three years......
Other than building huge mosdos and having lots of not so intelligent chassidim, what has he built ?
While there is hasmada, Belz pre-war drew tha charifim, the lomdim and 'gite kep' of the chassidishe world.
Anyone who won't blindly accept the current Rebbe despite never hearing a tife shtikel torah or kanaus......
We didn't need another kiruv organisation like Belz....we needed Belz to be what it always stood for.....which is why there is a misnagdei Belz faction who will never accept the sheker that Reb Berel is selling....
He can't convince his own mother....why should anyone else buy what he is selling ????
A while ago you posted the bechina given in Belz about derech Baal Shem etc.... I wonder if they would be proud to show the answers to those outside the group ...or are the answers only for those already brainwashed ?
ReplyDeleteIf I come to Ger I see a commitment to kedusha...not wasting a second from Avodas Hashem (including the Rebbe being unbelievably punctual).
Go to Toldon Aharon you see a commitment to chumras and living the old yerushalmi lifestyle...
You get my drift....what does Belz offer that no one else does ??
And about the Bris - Sandekues for Ahron Modchele.....he did a lot of worse things to his shver which lost a lot of respect for him in the city of Bnei Berak....
The only ones who get on with him are those with a common interest, like Ger and Klausenberg who want to destroy the hechsher and status of the Eida Chareidis.....
Why would Rav Elyashiv go to Belz anyway ????
ReplyDeleteAnon.
ReplyDeleteYou are making a good point,
but can you tell me what Belz as a chasidus stood for in the times of their holy Rebbes. Belz never claimed to have a ideology it was officially composed of good Jews learning Tur Bies Yossef and knowing full heartedly that their Rebbe and nobody else is the Tzadik and the Tzadik Hador.So what should Belz stand for today, when they have a Rebbe that is no Tzadik Hador and no Klien Shtetel Tzadik neither. Its a dilemma that I ponder as a former Belzer for years.
Your end off conspiracy, about the hechsher is sheer nonsense, forgive me for being blunt about it.
These statements about the belzer are quite well known in frum circles yet he garners much respect for one simple reason:
ReplyDeleteHis drop out rate is the lowest of any chareidi group in EY and probably the USA as well. He is the CEO, and forget kedisha, lomdus, mentshlichkeit from him. But he definitely has a gr8 understanding of how to educate the youth to keep them in the fold. The real bad news in belz is that his aharon mordechai has his father's middos and him mother's seichel and thats a recipe for a disaster, vidal.
About Ahron Mordechai is no secret....he figures it worked for his father so many years...only problem is that Belz relies on its kiruv branch to keep up numbers....it is amazing his father sends him overseas....
ReplyDeleteThe same reason why R' Sholo Bobover never let R' Benzion leave NY unless at his own side and why only R' Naftulche was ever allowed to run the botes and melave malkes when their father was absent....
Anon,
ReplyDeletedrop out rate low in belz vs. other places is a white lie.
For instance does Visnitz BB or Visnitz Monsey have more drop outs then belz?
Anon,
ReplyDeletePlz.stop talking about his Mother she was never a healthy women
"Anon,
ReplyDeletedrop out rate low in belz vs. other places is a white lie.
For instance does Visnitz BB or Visnitz Monsey have more drop outs then belz?" 8:29:00 AM
I'm anon 12:23:00 AM so I guess you're responding to me. According to some very knowledgeable chabad friends who don't have an ax to grind, he's got the lowest dropout rate. He set up a trade school where they identify kids @ 12 YO as being unable to do the 7am-10pm yeshiva deal and they steer them to a lighter schedule and teach them some practical work-related stuff so they can make an honest living. They are treated on par as the yeshiva bochurim, at tishen, yomtov, etc. Also, belz has a strong mentoring system if they see a dysfunctional family issue, they assign yungeleit to be mentors to the kids so they have a safe haven and an adult ear to listen to them.
He's done some other innovations and these are just 2 of them. They add up to keeping the kids in and not giving them a reason to valger on the streets.
One last thing is that in belz there is almost not one yungerman who doesn't have parnossa. He built the "kehilla" that R' Yoel ZT"L of satmar always wanted to have. It's not perfect, but he's light yrs ahead of where everyone is on teenage dropouts, and we have to respect him for it.
http://matzav.com/video-photos-rav-shteinman-brings-chizuk-to-lakewood-addresses-two-massive-gatherings
ReplyDeleteDid they sing like this in Lita
Anon 3;11
ReplyDeleteYour theory its nice on paper but I know belzer from close up,
they have dropouts and they have more Aniyem Vevyonim proportional more then any other chassidus.
their trade school takes gelt from rabbi eckstein of keren yedidus (missionaries)
ReplyDeleteEnough with all this loshon hora and plain jealousy and rishes.
ReplyDeleteBelz is full of real talmidei chachomim and feineh yidden.
why doesn't the BR ever smile...?
ReplyDeleteKeren Zavit,
ReplyDeleteSince you brought it up, if you followed this holy Rebbe, you will realize that he has mood swings, one day he is in to chabad, the next day he is Aufgeklert/Maskilic, the next day he is Kotzk......
I would query the drop out rate figures bandied about. US chasidesn like Lub, Satmer and Bobov have the worst. Due to the Israeli chareidi/chiloni kultukampf and the greater insularity of the chareidim over there Israeli chasidim have a lower drop out rate. Belz being predominantly Israeli will therefore be at the lower end. On the other hand I agree that from anecdotal evidence it appears that viznitz, both groups, have a lower drop out rate than Belz. I'm not even sure that Ger is any worse.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, who says that drop out rates are the appropriate yardstick? Belz is insular and in Israel conforms in many ways to a cult with a cradle to grave social system. There is therefore less opportunity to leave and less of an ability to cope without the Ruv holding your hand.
It is also true that because of his relative openness compared to his contermporary counterparts a certain degree of openess seeps through. I doubt pseudo pop psychologists like Aron Friedman or polemicists like Eichler would have been nurtured elsewhere as in Belz. This allows the intellectually curious to pursue their interests and remain in the group in the belief that es felt zei gornisht with their shich in zokn.
The guy is a confused figure who's never been and never will be happy. He has an eye to the world with a need to prove to them (himself?) that he is as open minded as the best out there. Pseudo research in nusach hatfilo, 'proper' enunciation of Hebrew at his whim, keynote addresses, grandiose HQs, newspapapers, logos, brands, music, video presentations and all the other trappings of a modern corporation.
On the other hand he is deeply superstitious and conservative. He would tease bochurim for wearing a wrist watch, obssesses about taking out chimneys and closing up windows, a control freak who demands absoloute obedience and control over the present as well as his own and his movement's history, a self centered individual who can't live without foreign trips, second homes and a first home that could house some of his homeless followers, a listener who can be generous where he doesn't feel threatened but with a horrible temper when he doesn't get his way.
If there is a frum leader out there who begs for a full and frank biography it is he. How long will we have to wait for it? Would they assasinate someone who tried? Who knows?
I would query the drop out rate figures bandied about. US chasidesn like Lub, Satmer and Bobov have the worst. Due to the Israeli chareidi/chiloni kultukampf and the greater insularity of the chareidim over there Israeli chasidim have a lower drop out rate. Belz being predominantly Israeli will therefore be at the lower end. On the other hand I agree that from anecdotal evidence it appears that viznitz, both groups, have a lower drop out rate than Belz. I'm not even sure that Ger is any worse.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, who says that drop out rates are the appropriate yardstick? Belz is insular and in Israel conforms in many ways to a cult with a cradle to grave social system. There is therefore less opportunity to leave and less of an ability to cope without the Ruv holding your hand.
It is also true that because of his relative openness compared to his contemporary counterparts a certain degree of openess seeps through. I doubt pseudo pop psychologists like Aron Friedman or polemicists like Eichler would have been nurtured elsewhere as in Belz. It does however allow the intellectually curious to pursue their interests and remain in the group in the belief that es felt zei gornisht with their shich in zokn.
The guy is a confused figure who's never been and never will be happy. He has an eye to the world with a need to prove to them (himself?) that he is as open minded as the best out there. Pseudo research in nusach hatfilo, 'proper' enunciation of Hebrew at his whim, newspapapers, keynote addresses, grandiose HQs, logos, brands, music, video presentations and all the other trappings of a modern corporation.
On the other hand he is deeply superstitious and conservative. He would tease bochurim for wearing a wrist watch, obssesses about taking out chimneys and closing up windows, a control freak who demands absoloute obedience and control over the present as well as his own and his movement's history, a self centered individual who can't live without foreign trips, second homes and a first home that could house some of his homeless followers yet a listener who can be generous where he doesn't feel threatened but with a horrible temper when he doesn't get his way.
If there is a frum leader out there who begs for a full and frank biography it is he. How long will we have to wait for it? Would they assasinate someone who tried? Who knows?
Gevezener Belzer
ReplyDelete"He would tease bochurim for wearing a wrist watch,"
it seems you were not their for a while, its along time that he is not into this nonsense, but Reb Yehuda Hachosid is a pet subject for Rebbes and Especialy Belzer Rebbes, thats why they exist for.
Gevezener Belzer
ReplyDelete"Would they assassinate someone who tried?"
They almost assassinated Pollak the Belzer Rovs stepson for writing the Beiso Novo Kodesh of the old Belzer Rov with a lot of info collected from old Belzers not affiliated with today Belz, The new regime didn't come across too good,after the Lachatz he changed course to tame the regimes appetite.