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This message - the one that RTH brings here - is as much about Mazel as it is about Tshuveh and Zindigen. Reb Tzudek is quite popular, even amongst the B'nei Teyreh. They see nothing wrong with even the most sensational statements. Remind me; who was it that made him acceptable amongst the BT (bnei teyreh): was it RYH? Or maybe they just don't know what he says, is that what it is? They know only selected shtiklach that are brought down in Pachad Yitzchok or Or Gedalyohu? Lines these are what is known as "classic Izhbitzeh;" so they tell me. Basically it's predetermined for us to sin, G-d knows it'll happen and he said so. So we have no choice but to do what he says we will... At least "us" in the general sense of the word, as a whole, the Nation of Israel, that is. We cannot use it as an excuse, you see. It's just that this is what will happen. Am Yisroel will turn their backs on Hashem and they'll they'll do Tshuveh, that's what the seder vet zein. So what's mazel got to do with it, you ask? It's simple. Reb Tzudek, Izhbitzeh and some others from that school of thought had mazel that G-d's lawyers never got on their cases. Had they done so most Jews never would've had the taanug of learning their seforim, because they'd be blacklisted, just like Rav Kook and others, who were banished for statements alot less controversial than this. This too is mazel-based, and this too is what G-d wants.
Maybe it's got something to with the fact that he never got in their way, the lawyers, that is. That's what it is most of the time; if you don't bother them or get in their way they could care less what you write in your seforim. The fact that they were Poylishe Tzaddikim - meaning literally, from Poland, may have helped thei cause. The Polish were not and are not zealots, whereas the Hungarians and some Lithuanians are. If they don't like you or you hurt their cause they'll destroy you, and most of the time it's one of their own landsleit or even chaver on the same bench in Volozhin. That too is mazel; where you're born and who your contemporaries are. Some people are at the wrong place in the wrong time, or even the right place at the wrong time. And some people are just ahead of their times. So it's written and so it is.
?וואו נעמט מען אביסאלע מזל
Maybe it never bothered the lawyers because they are focused on the yechidim, the Gedolim, rather than on Kneses Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteWhile not addressing your main point, I think it is way too simplistic to say Bnei Tayreh learnt about the Seforim from OG or PY. My father (from Lita) for one was basically the same age as those two gentlemen and Pri Tzadik was a Sefer he learnt so it must pre-date America.
ReplyDeleteI almost bought this recently. stam.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Thinking-God-Mysticism-Rabbi-Lublin/dp/0881257265
What reb Tzadock ztl is saying here is very much related to the age old conundrum of yediah and bechirah. If we are destined to sin then what control do we have over our spiritual destinies ? It has all been predetermined. Would some of the Hasidei Habad share with us what hassidus has to say on this matter ? GH"T to all.
ReplyDeleteKlainer
ReplyDeleteHe quotes the Rambam regarding Hashems punishment of the Egyptians for enslaving the Jews and he is basically saying that we are more determined to sin then them, it would be a chilul hashem if it would not of happened. In Tanya, ani hakoten never saw that concept.
Snagville,
ReplyDeleteI alwauys tought that Reb Tzoidak was introduced to the Misnagcdic Yeshiva world thru rav Dessles shmussen.
Its important to know that the Izbiczer school had a lot of animosity in Poland for drastically deserting Kotzk on the famous eve of Simchat Torah ,I heard that Reb Avrohom Mordechai Gerer tried to diminish the hatred by Quoting by the Tisch a Mie Hashiloech which shocked the Chasidim.
A. I find it interesting that you say "even" Bnei teyreh learn it. TTBOMK ONLY Bnei Teyreh learn it. Do they learn sifrei Reb Tzodok in Satmar, Lubavitch, Square, Ger or Belz? Case in point: There are two מפתחות for sifrei Reb Tzodok in print; one was written by a Ponovizher yungerman the other by a Ner Yisroel Yungerman.
ReplyDeleteB. Having grown up among many Poilisher and Galitzianer I'd basically agree with your characterization of them as more moderate as a group (there are exceptions to every rule on both sides. e.g. Reb Yerachmiel Domb is a Poilisher but a card-carrying NK member. Rav Amital of Gush was a Hungarian). But as far as vicious fighting no one has a monopoly. The wars between Kotzk vs. Ishbitz and later Ger vs. Radzyn and Ger vs. Alexander were legendary and around 50-100 years before anyone had ever heard of Satmar vs. Klausenberg etc. I heard from one survivor that it was not uncommon for Gerrer Chasidm to accost Radzyners on the street and rip the techeles right out of their Taleisim.
C. Kanoim don't go ballistic over controversial statements when they are totally abstract with little or no pratcitcal policy implications. The מי השילוח still said the Rambam's 11th ikkar every day and behaved , dressed and interacted with the world like other Poilish Rebbes.
OTOH The shittos of Rav Kook the Lubavitcher Rebbe and RYBS זכר כולם לברכה produce a Jew who thinks and acts differently about/towards secular education, the Zionist undertaking, the Israeli army , living away from large Kharedi population Centers and the role of women than the followers of more mainstream/conventional/ kanoisha gedolim do. It's not the degree of controversy that matters. It's the extent to which the controversial shittos are implemented in practice.
Not to mention how to confront modernity
ReplyDeleteperhaps the fact that Hitler YM"S did such a superb job exterminating Lubliner and Radzyner Chasidus and that no identifiable khasidim were oisek in these seforim is what made them "safe" for Yeshiva-leit and their Mashgikhim/Mashpi'im.
ReplyDeleteBray of Fundie
ReplyDeleteRE Reb Tzodak in chassidic courts
Skverer don't learn officialy reb Tzodak, since he made footnotes to Reb Nachmans Likutie Eitzohs.
Belz today are learning everything, all the Belzer Mesorah of not learning almost anything is obsolete, in the Neo Belz with the grandiose shul.
Lubavich, the Rebbe quotes Reb Zodak in Likutie sichos a few times.But it is definitly not a major part of the chabad curriculum.In matter of fact he has some arguments with the sefer Tanya.
Ger, has no agenda today with reb Tzodak
Its a nice piece from Reb Zadok. Reb Zadok often talks about sin and how it is often unavoidable and is a piece of a greater scheme.
ReplyDeleteIt is a great service to spread his pearls throughout the world.
It is not a great service to use Reb Zadok as a springboard to voice antipathy and ill feelings (justified or not) towards other people.
BOF brings up some real interesting points regarding Bnei Torah's attitude toward Haskofah vs. Torah issues. When it's Hashkofa, the Mehalech is to be Rodef the Mentsch while secretly learning the Torah (and admiring the person- R' Kook, RYBS). When it's Torah itself, Jews in Lita love Torah so they just learn it openly.
ReplyDeleteBray fundie
ReplyDeleteThe Har Brocha yeshiva a hesder Yeshive reprinted the works of Reb Zodak, with deciphering all the Chazals that Reb Tzodak throws on the reader like a avalanche
Snagville
ReplyDeleteReb Tzodak with all his greatness does not beat the clarity of RYBS, Have you ever read read RYBS works on Teshuva?
OTOH The shittos of Rav Kook the Lubavitcher Rebbe and RYBS זכר כולם לברכה produce a Jew who thinks and acts differently about/towards secular education, the Zionist undertaking, the Israeli army , living away from large Kharedi population Centers and the role of women than the followers of more mainstream/conventional/ kanoisha gedolim do
ReplyDeleteBray, sorry to tell you this, but I'm beginning to see why your blog had no traffic...
You sound like you're making a good point, but that's where it ends. You mix in three different approaches here.
1) I never meant RYBS.
2) opposition to RK had nothing to do with secular education and modernity
3) moving away from Kharedi centers??? THAT'S the problem here? excuse me?
There are many similar statements from Reb Tzodek (in one place, he advocates davening for someone else to sin; because the person doesn't realize he is doing bad and a more obvious sin will cause him to eventually mend his ways).
ReplyDeleteIt is well known, that some of these ideas were (mis)applied by Rav Kook.
For the record: PY doesn't cite (except for the Gaon - but that doesn't count).
Reb Moshe (Shapiro) cites Reb Tzodik explicetly.
There was a popularity of Reb Tzodik's seforim amongst some of the Mirrers.
Re: such statements. We know about them and we just willfuly ignore them. [What you have to understand is that many learn Reb Tzodik for the amkus; not for a mehlach in avodah; therefore, we can skip over them with ease and no effort]
A Gmar Chasimah Tovah
Genug mit de laytzonis and focus on the positive.
biyidiydus
Moshe
Bray
ReplyDeletethe Rebbe Quotes Reb Tzodak in Likutie Sichos
Moshe
ReplyDeletePY has his shtik of calling names like "Balie Ruach Hakodesh Zogen" that he means Sfas Emes Reb Tzodak etc..
r tzadik didnt fir up yidden fun derech, kook did.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDeletehow about the thousands of talmidie Merkaz Horav that are into Reb Tzodak seforim? does that tell you about Rav Kook or Reb Tzodak?
Tzig - one of the reasons Rav Zadok is popular among yeshiva people is that he was a Litvishe Yid who served as a rav there prior to his "na venad" stage and going to Poland and Lublin.
ReplyDeletekanoim in LIta . Of course every country produced kanoim yes even Poland. But remember Lita was not a culture of Jewish extremism. In Germany there was a strong Orthodox element of extremists in Hungary that element dominated Orthodoxy.There was a single kehilo in Lita not one instance of a sepaarte kehillo. In Vilna Kovna etc Bundists , zionists ,mizrachi Aguda all sat together and adminstered to the Kehillo needs. No Yereim here , no Adas israel or Austrit. , no teilung here. Lita was the stronghold of the Mizrachi and its rabbinic leaders rabbis Reines, Nissenboim, Rubinstein.The son of the Chafetz Chaim rav Leib was a Mizarachi and served as its president in Poland until his death in 1939. Lita was the home (birthplace)of great Orthodox philosophers like Rabbis Shmuel Aleksanderov, ERabi Tamarat who developed a whole shitah of Jewish pacifism, and the kadosh Hillel Zeitlin. Lita produced moderate leaders like Rabbis Dov Revel, Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik ,Mayer Bar Ilan, Rav Kuk, Rav Shmuel Mohiliver, Rav Herzog, Rav YY Weinberg . Of course it had some kanoim like rav Elchonon and the Brisker rav , but by and large the religious culture of lIthuania and White Russia was moderate. The kanoim had little shlita over Jewish religious life in greater Lita.
After the war what passes as "Litvish" should be called yeshivish.Its like saying that harvard and yale are representative of the way all new Englanders are . And even in the yeshiva world before the war kanous was not shchiach.
Schneur,
ReplyDeletewas the Lithuanian passivity good for the Jews or no good for the Jews?
was the Hungarian Kanoias good for the Jews or no good for the Jews? you are the Pro I would love to get your opinion