מען איז מזייף.
It's weird if you ask me. Why not just change what we do, instead of revising the words of the Holy Chasam Sofer? Which is what ultimately happened - as far as I know. Most people of that persuasion, the persuasion of those who tinkered with the loshon of the Chasam Sofer, do not openly do melachos after the shkiah these days, despite the fact that they're fans of Rabbeinu Tam. And despite the fact that in Europe they would. That was changed in America post-WW2. They use it at times when a leniency is needed, just like a Lubavitcher often davens mincha post-shkiah, or a Yeshivaman davens shachris after zman tfilloh during bein haZmanim or Chol Hamoed. But I don't think they still do melachos regularly just because they feel like they can. So why then change the text and make yourself צו נאר? The מו"ל here was the Debrecener Rov, zt"l, a champion of the derech HaChasam Sofer, who seemingly was forced to censor. Why do we go so far as to say he was forced? Only because that's the only logical reason why he would do it. He himself would never conduct himself with a leniency such as using the Shitas Rabbeinu Tam לקולא, even if the situation called for it. And he would surely never censor his holy Zeide's words.
So that's the only reason.
Who decided not to follow R"T lekula, after the war? IIRC, there was a meeting or something, and they decided it. Why can't the current poskim just change it, just like they did with the BP eiruv?
ReplyDeleteI am not sure I understand this story. Is this a historic document? or is it a new מחאה? Is the חתם סופר saying he paskens like Rabeinu Tam and they removed it from his sefer? If yes, why not remove the Tosfos from Zevochim that quotes Rabeinu Tam? I personally do not know more than one person that would ever do a melocho after shekia even extreme emergency.
ReplyDeleteYankel
ReplyDeleteAre you bad on reading simple Loshen Hakodesh, The Cs writes in the chidushim not as the Rebinie taam, so they pressured the Debretziner to cut and no paste
this is a 40 year old document
yankel, tosfos in zevachim? its in shabbos.
ReplyDeleteThe Tosfos is in zevochim 56a.
ReplyDeleteI do not have the full context of the CS, therefore I was not sure what he was saying. The blogger seemed to be saying that he did not hold of RT.
There are certain Halachic issues in our Charadie yiddishkiet of the last 150 years, that facts or contradicting sources don't matter, there is a goal and all has to twisted to that subtotal
ReplyDeleteOne of those is the Satmar/Klausenburger fight for the Rebinie Taam and only the 72 minute version, they also have a problem with the Ravs Geonim shitah in his Siddur, so they came up with a solution that he never wrote it, it is some ghost writer that put it in there for some unknown reason.
It is mindboggling what else is being done to match all the rishonim to their shitah.They are using the Titelbaum Pilpul style at all gears, to get everyone in line.
But this CS is by all means a cheap shot.
See ישראל והזמנים at length about this piece of CS and the whole history against it.
ReplyDeleteThe CS in Teshuvas OH 80 explicitly states that the Halacha is like the Rabeinu Tam even lekula! So it's well known that it remains an noninclusive fact to what the CS actual opinion was.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDeleteit is known info that the CS in the teshuvath has a different opinion, but the chidushim he wrote too
this is no suprise to me, in belz of today they do it time again and again in their monthly propganda, fact twisting, brainwashing, magazine "ohr hatzofohn", there is no edition without doctering edit or change in order it should feed their agenda, no wonder the skver rebbi does not go for it, even though the glogiv rebbi told the skver rebbi and quoted the PR magazine as the source, the rebbi brushed it off.
ReplyDeleteif i would have the time i can go thru edition after edition with their
wishfull thinking, i would only do so with the permission of course of r` hershil, who does a remarkable job with sticking to truth.
in bobov such a thing will never happen, they accept it at face value, they like it or not, they still wont twist the fact.
Bobov Chusid
ReplyDeleteYou forgot to mention the huts and the muddy roads in the small village near Lviv.
You are right. Bobov have always been very open with their shady-postwar- secrets.
Bobobov chusid
ReplyDeleteI Am not today a Belzer chusid but I know Belz very well,
Can you atleast provide 3 examples of lies in the Or Hatzufen?
Are you just blowing steam?
Anon
ReplyDelete"Bobov have always been very open with their shady-postwar- secrets"
Bobov was considered the butt of Jokes in the prewar Galicia not only by Belzer chasidim..
The best word that people could offer on Bobov that it is a good Kiruv group, but as a chasidus or the Rebbe as a tzadik it was the laughing stock.
CGS
ReplyDelete"See ישראל והזמנים at length about this piece of CS and the whole history against it."
thanks for the info,
please provide me the page and the volume. I enjoy to read Rav Harfenes seforim its chock full of innuendos.
when speaking about bobov post wear, this was actually when r` shlomo arrived to budapest in 194, before the germans invaded hungary, he arrived clean shaven that was already going thru 4 year of hell, the ignorant hungariens did not understand what is comming their way, so instead they poked fun of bobov, until they felt ity on their own skin, and then all of then were forced to shave as well, the bobov rebbi did after the war more than the satmer rebbi the belz rebbi and many other brand names, if you like it or not this is fact. bobov groups were erected in all dp camps.
ReplyDeleteTruth
ReplyDelete"the ignorant hungariens did not understand what is comming their way, so instead they poked fun of bobov,"
Amazing how a guy with the pen name Tuth can do such a revisionism job,
Bobov was a laughing stock in Galicia before the war,by all Galicianer chasidim may it be Zhikever,Koloshitzer,Stuchiner...
Reb shlomas behaviour at that era did not help much, his name and Bobov name cleared when the old Generation died and left no torah shebiksav...
Truth
ReplyDelete"the bobov rebbi did after the war more than the satmer rebbi the belz rebbi and many other brand names, if you like it or not this is fact"
you are probably correct, the Satmar Ruv did not work with Jews that were on the verge of Frie, he worked with Jews that wanted to stay frum in the style of the alter hiem.
but the facts of the image of Bobover Chasidus in old Galicia is a fact and don't try to change it
actually in the Debreciner Rov's teshuvos he wrhites IIRC, that he was always maykil (even in the US) for a woman who made a HT up until RT's shkia, which would constitute being maykil in an issur dioraysa (dehaynu missing out in visafra lah shivas yomim) until he realized some people don't hold of R"T at all over her, and he started asking the shoialim what they usually keep.
ReplyDeletetruth -
ReplyDeletedo you mean the satmer rebbi living in swiss and belz rebbi was in israel?
well i think there is some truth to that statement. but rumors fly when reb shlomo lived in italy after the war, he became bobov rebbi only in london.
The alter rebbe clearly writes and it is printed in the sidur from kehos that we don't go like rabeinu tam mimilu you would never see a lubvitcher do melacha after shkiyah besides for the 4 minutes bshas hadchak
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:36
ReplyDeleteIn the first addition (5447), it is on p. 490 (Siman 85, titled מנהג ישראל בתפוצות) in the footnotes.
Woops! "Edition", not "addition".
ReplyDeleteWoops! "Edition", not "addition".
ReplyDeleteIn Re: Bobov in Budapest during 1943-44. While he arrived clean shaven (smuggled out of Bochnia under fals ID), just like many other Rebbe's considered holy in the blogoshpere, such as Belze Rebbe and his brother the Bilograye Ruv.....
ReplyDeleteThere are published pictures during that time period with a beard and peyos and chassidic dress code which he donned as soon as he settled in... About 10 months after his arrival when the Nazis invaded Hungary he immediately went "underground" again. During this time he was treated as the "de facto" Ruv of the Chvra Tehilim/Anshei Polin Shtibel. The Satmar Rav davened there when he vistited Budapest and paid him a visit as "Ruv" and acvcorded him great respect. He also signed the famous Kol Koreh along with the Belze Rebbe and Belgraye Ruv.
So much for his "dark days" during the war. I could go on about the rest of the time, but it is a waste of time. While others worried about the style of their clothes ot other petty things, he was actively involved in saving peoples lives....
Anon
ReplyDelete"There are published pictures during that time period with a beard and peyos and chassidic dress code which he donned as soon as he settled in."
did he wear already the white knickerbockers?
Anon
ReplyDelete"During this time he was treated as the "de facto" Ruv of the Chvra Tehilim/Anshei Polin Shtibel."
Is there some leeter stating him as the Rav?
So can I conclude that he was the Rav there for 10 months?
or I am missing something?
C H Ser
ReplyDelete"that he was always maykil (even in the US) for a woman who made a HT up until RT's shkia,"
is that 15 minutes after sunset?
"did he wear already the white knickerbockers?"
ReplyDeleteCan't tell. The picture only shows the head and upper body. I'm not sure what it would mean. As an illegal alian from an enemy country, he had every reason to keep a low profile, so he probably didn't wear didn't wear clothes that would identify him as a Polish Rebbe or Chusid.
"So can I conclude that he was the Rav there for 10 months? or I am missing something?"
Possibly, He was given all the honors reserved for a Chassidic Ruv, Shishi, Mussafim an RH, YK etc. Hakufis etc.