For over sixty years now, since that fateful day in 1944, when a train carrying over sixteen hundred Jews crossed the border to Switzerland, there has been a raging debate as to how this rare occurrence of Jews being allowed to get to the free world – let alone on a German-sanctioned train – was possible, and what was the behind the scenes story of the rescue. One of the main reasons for the intensity of the debate is the fact that the train – now famously known as the Kastner train – had one passenger by the name of Joel Teitelbaum, the famous Satmar Rebbe. Rabbi Joel (henceforward referred to as “the Rebbe”) was famous as a staunch opponent of the state of Israel, because of its Zionist ideology - religious Zionism or otherwise. For all his life he led a major battle against it, and everything related to it in any way. He saw Zionism as the biggest obstacle to the Jewish people, and even said that it stood in the way of the Jewish nation’s ultimate redemption, the coming of Moshiach (the Messiah).
So this is the seed of the debate:
How ironic is that, the leader of Anti-Zionist Judaism after WWII – the Rebbe – was rescued by a train “The Kastner Train”, named after Rudolf Kastner, the man who made the train possible. This man was the leader of the “the Aid and Rescue Committee," the "Va'ada”, the then defacto “Zionist” Aid and Rescue organization in occupied Budapest. Some even went as far as demanding that the Rebbe drop his opposition to Zionism - or at least tone it down significantly - out of appreciation for his rescue through Zionist hands. And it goes even deeper: according to some sources the Rebbe was supposedly asked after the war to testify in the “Kastner trial,” on behalf of Kastner, (the trial was a libel sued by the State of Israel against one Malchiel Gruenwald, for his claim that Rudolf Kastner – at the time of the trial a Government official – collaborated with the Nazis during the war under the disguise of rescue, in the “the Aid and Rescue Committee”). The Rebbe refused to testify. This deepens the controversy: how ungrateful and unappreciative is it, to not help someone who helped you, when you needed it so desperately! So even before we examine the history, the facts on the ground, to what transpired at the time of the train being let go, a few points have to be made: As to the claim of unappreciative behavior by the Rebbe, by refusing to testify at the trial, even if all stated above – about the rescue being made possible by Kastner – was one hundred percent true, there is a lot to say as to the obligation of the Rebbe (or any Jew for that matter) to testify positively and defend Kastner’s claim. I don’t want to go into much detail, but the story around Kastner and his deeds during and after the war, are far from black and white. There is even a possibility that the Rebbe, by not testifying “against” Kastner, for the Gruenwald side, showed much more appreciation then Kastner himself could’ve asked for. I wish to leave this issue here, in order not to open a big can of worms on Kastner, his deeds, and personality. The second point is more a Torah point of view: it’s the belief of every religious Jew (at least as far as the “Rebbe kind of people” are concerned) that the Torah is the divine word of G-d, and cannot be changed in any way, shape or form, for any reason whatsoever, no matter of the feelings or circumstance one finds himself in.
So again - even if it’s true that the rescue was made possible by Kastner - to say that the Rebbe should change his Beliefs on Zionism - a movement which was in his eyes fundamentally against the very pillars of Jewish Belief - the Diaspora and eventual gathering, exile and eventual redemption - because it so happened that he was rescued by Zionists, is absurd at best. just as any of the twelve hundred or so, who were rescued by Oskar Schindler, shouldn’t have to convert to Catholicism, just because Schindler was a Catholic, (even if his rescue would’ve been orchestrated with the help of the Church – and the church actually rescued kids, and are still fiercely condemned for those they never returned to Judaism). Zionism was in the Rebbe’s belief-system, a conversion away from Judaism, to a different religion, a political movement born near the turn of the 20th century. A turn in its direction shouldn’t be tolerated in any fashion, for any reason whatsoever.
These two points out of the way, we may now address the main point of the article:
Who rescued the Rebbe? Who made the rescue possible? And who really earns the appreciation for the rescue, so many want to show toward Kastner and the Zionists? In order to answer these questions, we have to go back a little earlier in history, to the beginning of WWII. Of course, the suffering of the Jews didn’t start in 1944, when the rescue of the train occurred! It started as early as 1939 in some places. In Slovakia, the deportations started in March of 1942, and continued until the summer of that year. During this time, a group of Jews working under the name “The Working Group” (henceforward referred to as the “WG”), tried to stop the Slovak deportations, and to do whatever else was possible to save the remaining Jews. This group consisted of a couple of Jews (of which the last one, Andre Steiner, died recently at the age of over 100) and was headed by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandel (henceforward referred to as “RMD”) and his cousin, Mrs. Gisi Fleischmann. In order to stop the deportation - after a considerable effort - they made contact with Dieter Wisliceny, the person responsible for the deportations of Slovak Jewry, and through a bribe of a huge sum of money, and several other things, like bribing other officials, and pressuring the non-Jewish religious hierarchy in Slovakia, they succeeded in stopping the Slovak deportations almost until the end of the war. The success of the Slovak rescue, gave the group fresh appetite to try and extend the rescue to all of Europe. This was a much bigger undertaking than the Slovak rescue. Whereas the Slovak rescue was done for the relative small amount of $50,000, and it involved some 30,000 Jews to be rescued, the broader “Europa Plan” involved millions of dollars, and a million Jews.
The negotiations started in late 1942, and went back and forth. Although the down payment of $200,000 couldn’t be realized, the negotiations still continued in Slovakia until 1944, (what transpired during this time is a long story. The required attention to discuss it in length is beyond the realm of this article). In 1943 Wisliceny was transferred from Slovakia to Greece, and in 1944 he arrived in Hungary. Like in Slovakia he came to Hungary to work with Adolf Eichmann. Before his transfer out of Slovakia, he asked RMD how the negotiations will continue after he leaves to Hungary. RMD gave him a letter in his personal handwriting to be given to Rabbi Pinchas Freudiger, (henceforward referred to as “Freudiger”) head of the orthodox Jewish community in Budapest. The letter asked that Freudiger continue the negotiations with Wisliceny. Freudiger knew of Wisliceny and the negotiations between him and the “WG”, because the money for the Slovak rescue was sent by the orthodox community in Budapest. Although Wisliceny always worked under Eichmann - since Slovakia - now it was different. Now he was working under Eichmann, in Eichmann‘s presence, whereas in Slovakia Eichmann wasn’t there. Freudiger at first met with Wisliceny on a personal matter on March 22nd, to help his brother who was arrested by the S.S. He went to speak to Wisliceny to see if he will be able to help him in this matter, he knew Wisliceny was in command, because of a meeting Wisliceny held with the leaders of the various Jewish communities on March 20th, upon Wisliceny’s arrival in Hungary. At that meeting Wisliceny informed the leaders that he will from that day on be in charge of the Jewish affairs. When Freudiger met with Wisliceny to try to help his brother, Wisliceny told him that he wanted to meet him on a personal matter, and that he has something to discuss with him. The meeting took place a few days later. At this meeting Wisliceny gave Freudiger the letter from RMD, - asking Freudiger to continue the negotiations on the Europe plan - and asked him if it was "OK" from his side. Freudiger replied in the affirmative, and Wisliceny told him that he will be in touch.
About four weeks later, in April, Wisliceny started to negotiate with a new group of people about the “Europa Plan.” This group was “The Aid and Rescue Committee, the Vaada” (henceforward referred to as “ARC”), and was headed by Kastner. The negotiations with this second group, started with continuing with the “Europe plan”. It evolved into “blood for money” “blood for goods”, blood for trucks”, (not necessarily in this order) and ended up with the train into Switzerland. Why Wisliceny changed who to negotiate with, is complicated. One thing seems to be clear; Eichmann lost some trust in Wisliceny and his negotiations with the “WG”, and instructed him to work with the “ARC”, instead of the “WG”. The reasons for this vary from: “Eichmann thought that the “ARC” was more able”, to “Freudiger and the “WG” was sabotaged and forced out” and everything in-between. Whatever the reason, the fact remains. The initiative to negotiate with the Nazis, the connections to them, the act of gaining their trust, and Vice versa that Nazis should trust the Jews, were all done, by the “WG”, and not by the “ARC”. All Kastner and his group did, was “ride on the coattails” of the “WG”, (and by some accounts they even ruined the ability for a bigger rescue, but that’s a separate issue which I much rather not discuss, for Kastner’s sake, as stated above). Moreover, even after Kastner officially took over the negations, Freudiger was still in contact with Wisliceny, and was still deeply involved in the negations. Not only was Freudiger still active behind the scenes, so was RMD.
It seems that Wisliceny - who was the de facto negotiator - still preferred the “WG” over the “ARC” and since both Wisliceny and Eichmann worked for Heinrich Himmler, he tried to keep the “WG” in the picture the entire time, and it seems that Himmler was OK with this, even though Eichmann preferred the “ARC”. One of the best documented examples is the following, in July 1945 after the rescue attempt by the “ARC” (involving sending Joel Brand to turkey) blow up, because it was made public in the media, (this BTW was the reason RMD didn’t want to go the “ARC” route) Freudiger was called by Wisliceny for the last time, he informed him that he was in Slovakia by RMD, and that RMD said that he (Freudiger) already has acquired 250 trucks for immediate delivery to the Germans. Freudiger of course didn’t have it but he confirmed it with the hope for a miracle, and this ultimately was what brought the Germans back to the table after the brand fiasco, which made possible the train to Switzerland. (although RMD was against the “ARC” route, after the fact, he still tried to convince Wisliceny, that the media reports albeit it posed a problem for the Germans, it still proofs that the Jews are really ready to deliver the trucks in exchange for the rescue, and although the official mission by Brand collapsed because the Allies couldn’t let it go through, and it got Germany ashamed, Freudiger could still deliver unofficially through Switzerland). Other negations were also going on between Freudiger and Wisliceny, but they are numerous and too long to discuss in the current article.
So this is what I’m coming to: even though the front man was Kastner and the “ARC,” at least in the eyes of Eichmann, behind the scenes, and as far as Wisliceny and Himmler were concerned, the “WG” was fully involved, and Wisliceny kept going back to RMD to make sure that things were in order. So how can someone in their right mind claim that the Zionist rescued the Rebbe, moreover how can someone even say the Rebbe was rescued by Kastner? All Kastner did was he pushed himself to the front, elbowed out Freudiger, took over a finished deal, (and this is at the best case scenario) why give him the credit? So no!! The Rebbe wasn’t rescued by the Zionist!! The Rebbe wasn’t rescued by Kastner, The Rebbe was rescued by “The Working Group”!! By Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandel, and by Rabbi Pinchas Freudiger!! and of course they were only the emissaries from the almighty!! So this should be obvious, why give credit to a “Pawn”, when we have a “king” and “queen”!!! And BTW, all those who thought that because the Rebbe was rescued by the Zionist, the Rebbe owed a debt of gratitude to them, and should’ve changed his position on Zionism, why not take it both ways? Why not demand Kastner and his buddies, become Anti-Zionist, since they were rescued by RMD who was the ultimate Anti-Zionist!!!
Another small tidbit, one of the things that may have had an impact on Kastner’s decision to include the Rebbe in the transport, is the dream (the one of Kastner's father-in-law, Dr. Fischer, who the Rebbe’s supports believe had a dream, in which he was told that if the Rebbe was not in the list, the entire rescue would not be successful) whether you believe the dream or not, it’s an obvious mystery as to why Kastner included the Rebbe in the transport.The train consisted of more-less the Zionist leadership, Kastner’s family, and people from Cluj - Kastner’s hometown -. The rest were people who paid a lot of money to get “tickets” on the transport. This money was the ransom for Eichmann to let the train go. There were people fighting for a chance to get on the train, people fighting to pay, why take the biggest enemy to Zionism to freedom? Why did he take the Rebbe?
One explanation could be the dream. It makes sense Dr. Fisher was a powerful man, a head of the community in Cluj, and we know Kastner had a soft spot for the people of Cluj, so maybe his father-in-law convinced him! If you prefer not to believe the dream, then maybe it was the orthodox community, who provided most of the money for the transport buy buying the majority of tickets. Maybe they pressured him to take the Rebbe or else they won’t pay! You can build whatever case suits your thinking, the fact still has to be that an outside power convinced Kastner to take the Rebbe. So again even if the transport was “his” rescue – which as stated above, it wasn’t- “the particular rescue of the Rebbe was defiantly not his idea at all. He probably just “held his nose, and went with the program,” because he had no choice!! Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the train which was paid to go straight to Switzerland didn’t do so. In fact it was stopped in several locations, once even for a couple of months, because the Nazis asked for more money. The money couldn’t be collected from the Zionist organizations – like the joint – Because “they couldn’t do a thing like that, give money to the enemy? This was illegal!!” (This would’ve been funny, if it wasn’t so tragic. So again the “orthodox Jews” had to cough up the money, in order for the transport to continue. How can anyone with a straight mind, even think about giving credit to the Zionist or to Kastner?!!
Once you even mentioned the "dream" you blew the whole article. "The dream" was invented in Willy in the late 70's by the Satmar PR HQ.
ReplyDeleteExcuses, excuses.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that the Rebbe went to his grave, unable to give the simplest Hakoras HaTov for the fact that his life was saved. Even if it came about by a representative of all that he personally detested he is still obligated to do so. Sorry to say, but this remains a huge shemetz on his legacy.
Anon 2:08
ReplyDeleteI never said the dream was or wasn’t true, I allude to is as a theory.
As you can see if you “really” read it, not just try to find fault with it.
Moreover, this is not the point of the article, it’s just a miner possible explanation, to part of the story. The point is what, and who made the rescue possible.
Anon 2:45
Not that I c”v equate the two in anyway shape or form, but on your calculations, why not give credit to Eichmann, Wisliceny and Himmler? They were also part of the rescue!
The point is the Rebbe wasn’t rescued because of Kastner; the Rebbe was rescued despite Kastner!
does it really matter how he was saved? the idea that he had to give hakoras hatoiv to kastner is laughable, even though it's true. kastner was a shaigetz who did it for his own reasons, not to help other yidden.
ReplyDeletethe fact is that he made every yr a big party celebrating his "ge'eelah" when 500k fellow countrymen Jews were gassed R"L?
I noticed that in the later years they changed it to a fundraiser for TV"Y and tried to tone down the chag part. maybe the guilt was getting to them.
anon 4:12,
ReplyDeletein all fairness, chabad also celebrates the day the rebbe was saved even though most people weren't. that is not just a satmar invention.
Total revisionism.
ReplyDeleteSo many bald face lies, so little time.
This whole discussion is really besides the point. The Medina exists today and 6 million fellow jews call it home. It will not end by any "peaceful" means. Rather, ending the state will mean extreme misery and danger for everyone there. Henceforth, to self-servingly call for such is to condemn millions of our fellows to an uncertain future and should be eschewed by anyone who considers himself Hareidi, Chassid, Ben-Torah or what-have-you. IM(NSV)HO anyone who still latches on to this ideology likely does not possess a single drop of Zera Yisroel as he shows an achzariyus befitting the worst of our tormentors across the ages!
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:36,
ReplyDelete“So many bald face lies, so little time”
Still you can’t name any, thats odd!!
Well as the saying goes, “don’t confuse me with the facts I’ve made my mind up already”.
Anon 18:58,
No, your comment is beside the point, who said anything about the Medina?
We are strictly talking about one thing, and one thing only,
”the rescue”
who was responsible for it, who made it possible, and in return who deserves the credit.
This is not a political campaign, where you try to find fault with the opponents’ character!!
My experience of holocaust survivors is that some of them commemorate the day they were freed or liberated. I didn't come across any who made a party or חג. The human condition simply cannot fathom celebration amongst smouldering ashes. It was only 50 years later that my father even mentioned the day that he and five members of his family arose, as dry bones, from the box they had hidden in, under the ground, in the back of a farm for 27 months. He knew the day, alright. I'm sure he thinks about it each year. He never contemplated a celebration, however.
ReplyDeleteIf we conclude that it's not appropriate to say הלל when מעשי ידי were drowning in the sea, קל וחומר when ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש were incinerated.
"This is not a political campaign, where you try to find fault with the opponents’ character!!"
ReplyDeleteFunny, that. The SR's entire legacy is politics. From countering the "tziyunisten" with intense verbal violence to paying King Hussein Ibn Talal "rent" for his institutions in J-lem to placing full page ads in major secular newspapers saying G-d does not hear the shofar in heterodox shuls to who knows what else the SR was all about politics, appearances and assassinating the character of other yidden; from the frummer to the not-so-frum. And this posting, for all its conjecture and "evidence" brought from dreams, is an exercise in character assassination as well.
Pot, it's kettle. You're black!
anon 4:12,
ReplyDeletein all fairness, chabad also celebrates the day the rebbe was saved even though most people weren't. that is not just a satmar invention...
with one difference. 9 adar & 28 sivan were never major yomtovs in Chabad. moreover, the 28 sivan was only revealed as the day the Rebbe came to the USA after the printing of igros in 1985. So for 44 yrs, no one even knew the date.
RYT himself celebrated 21 kislev, and it's the major chag of modern day satmar, even more than the YM yartzeit. A satmar chossid told me that RYT used it as a fundraiser for his moisdos, and he figured its a day that gets the masses excited and into a giving mood. So his being involved in the day was more a strategic than a personal celebration. It's a good limud zchus, and fits into his general hanhoga from what I've heard from inside people.
"One of the best documented examples is the following, in July 1945 after the rescue attempt by the “ARC” (involving sending Joel Brand to turkey) blow up, because it was made public in the media, (this BTW was the reason RMD didn’t want to go the “ARC” route) Freudiger was called by Wisliceny for the last time"
ReplyDeleteIt must be an error. The war was over in May 1945. Did you mean 1944?
Regarding celebration:
Chassidic Rebbe is not a private figure, he is essentially "not his own person", but an instrument of a movement. So celebration of the Rebbe's rescue is the whole Satmar celebration, not just private Rebbe's event.
Regarding hakoras hatoiv, IMHO, does not matter what crook Kastner was, since the rescue was done by Hashem through Kastner, even if only in a small part, that dude deserved big "thank you". Which of course does not kasher Zionism.
I don’t know why for some people this turned in to a discussion about celebration, to celebrate or not to celebrate.
ReplyDeleteThis is not the issue at hand, if anyone wants to debate the merit of celebrating one’s own liberation, when others weren’t so lucky, why don’t you ask Tzig to post something about it, and debate all day long.
I will say once again, this is about one issue, about “the rescue” and who deserves the credit, that’s it, please stick to the issue.
Thank You
Anon 11:56
Your making my point stronger, we are talking about an historical event, and trying to set the record straight, and you instead of engaging in an adult discussion on the issue, you feel the need to try character assassination, if you don’t have anything intelligent to add about the issue, why don’t you refrain from commenting, and we will all be very ready to forgive you!
Yokov,
Your right about the date, it was ’44, about July 20th ’44, to be a bit more precise.
“Regarding “hakoras hatoiv”….. even if only in a small part, that dude deserved big "thank you".
The point is that he didn’t have a part in this, he just let the already accruing play out (and by some accounts minimize it), but there was nothing “new” that he added that brought it to fruition.
Except of course, if you think he deserves a big “Thank You” for not spoiling it, since he had the ability to do so, if that’s the case than your right!
Who saved the Lubavuitcher Rebber? Any Hakuras Hatov?
ReplyDeleteHaaretz recently reported on a half-Jewish Nazi who saved the Lubavitcher Rebbe, after pressure from Roosevelt.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/the-half-jewish-nazi-who-saved-the-lubavitcher-rebbe-1.359059
Is he known in Chabad? Did the Lubavitcher Rebbe extend to him a Hakuras Hatov?
BTW, this article also have an interesting point that Roosevelt intervened for Lubavitcer Rebbe, to appease and silence the demands to do more to rescue the European Jewry. Wondering why we don't hear this as much as the Stamar Rebbe's rescue.
123
ReplyDeletethere were no "demands" to do for European Jewry in 1940, which is when the Lubavitcher Rebbe was rescued.
He is known in Chabad.
I guess nobody wants on this blogg to remember the gemurre "If you see a talmid chochem oiver an aveira , do not be meharer-he will do tshive on it"
ReplyDeleteThis whole thing with akores hatoiv to Kastner is may-be a nidon shel aveire ( BIG MAY-BE). So, what's that you all want? AHHH, I got it-Shechter/Shlomi is the one not to meharer after. Sorry, i am a slow, stupid Russian.
myhumbleopinion:
ReplyDeleteThe article does not prove that Kastner did not have any part in the rescue whatsoever.
Besides, even if he simply did not intervene, when, for example, a yeshiva need some legal document to let's say expand premises, and an official who could not care less signs permission, even though the decision is done to boost his chances on re-election, and the need for expansion was done by legal team, and he just followed his advisers, still he deserves "thank you". The same here - thank you, Kastner.
"still he deserves "thank you". The same here"
ReplyDeleteYou don't get it. To do so with those fargrebte, farshkutzike Tiyunisten would cause heads to explode all over Willy. Hence the mental gymnastics of this article to "prove" it is not required. Really, My(NotSoVery)HumbleOpinion, the US Olympic team needs someone like you next year!
Hershel, this is a Quote from the Haaretz article.
ReplyDelete"At the time, those demanding that the U.S. government take on a stronger role regarding the fate of European Jewry did so despite "tremendous anti-Semitism in America," Price said. "Roosevelt had to tread lightly and do something, so he thought that perhaps rescuing the rebbe would ameliorate the situation with the Jewish community. The Germans, for their part, thought perhaps they could keep a backdoor channel open with the Americans and prevent them from entering the war."
The writer forgot to mention that Gisl Fleischmann was a Zionist herself as were others in the "Working group." The group was not anti-Zionist but represented the various "streams" comprising Slovakian Jewry. This group represented much more than RMBWeissmandel's political and religious beliefs.There were various people involved including Zionists. In the end,Kastner was the key player in the final stage which led to the "Kastner" train.There's a lot in Hebrew about this issue as it was one of the most celebrated issues in the early days of the "Medineh."
ReplyDeleteYakov:
ReplyDelete“The article does not prove that Kastner did not have any part in the rescue whatsoever”
I choose to disagree, I think the article does prove that he had nothing to do with it, not with the connection, nor with the idea of negotiations, or any part for that matter, and even if the train was his rescue, the rabbi’s rescue, was bought and paid for, once from Kastner (which one can still say, it’s his work), but then again just before finely being released into Switzerland, as the article point out, and as I wrote: “He just let the already accruing, play out (and by some accounts minimize it), but there was nothing “new” that he added that brought it to fruition.”
“Besides, even if he simply did not intervene………”
Well even by your calculations, a Thank You equivalent to one given to a bureaucrat in a government office, is NOT AT ALL what these “thank you advocates” are demanding!! They demand a full-fledged Thank you, you know, the one with “cream and a cherry on the top”, if you get my drift!
Besides, let’s take your analogy a step farther, if the same office worker comes in to the picture after everything is approved, only needing a signature, and he does give his signature at the end, but first he strips the permits 95 percent, what then? Do we still say thank you?
Well, I’m sorry to say this, but this is what a lot of people think Kastner did!
(BTW, I myself am not of the Kastner “sold his soul to the devil” crowd (the words of the judge in his case, before being appealed), I think that even if it’s true that he spoiled the rescue efforts to a certain extent, it was because of miscalculations not out of betrayal, at least I hope that’s the case)
Anon 4:04
You really think my mental gymnastics skills are Olympic worthy? Wow! Thank You so much for the Compliment!!
As far as the rest of your comment goes, sorry that the article was so much over your head, that the only result of you reading it, was this terrible concoction.
Anon 4:28
“The writer forgot to mention that Gisl Fleischmann was a Zionist herself”
So, do you also think that the twelve hundred or so, who were rescued by Oskar Schindler, were rescued by Catholicism? Of course not they were rescued by a person that happened to be a Catholic, the same way that Gisl happened to be a – till that time (as I will elaborate after this thought) – a Zionist, the story why Kastner is different, is because his rescue efforts were thru the official Zionist organizations.
Now since you brought it up, Gisl was indeed up until that time a Zionist, moreover she was the leader of the joint in her place of living, but as she started doing rescue work, she realized what the Zionist leadership, in the joint, in the yishuv, and otherwise, were up to, she renounced Zionism with all her might and power, in terms that makes the Satmar rabbi’s opposition, pale in comparison.
But the truth is, her personnel belief is beside the point, as I said, so let’s not get into debating Gisl’s or anyone else’s personnel belief.
IIRC, after the six day war the SR was of the opinion that God would not perform miracles through zionists. That logic should apply to Kastner as well, etc., etc., ...
ReplyDelete“That logic should apply to Kastner as well”
ReplyDeleteWell maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t, but what are you trying to say? The whole point of the article is that it “DID NOT” happen thru Kastner! Or didn’t I understand your point?
As somebody who studied a lot on issues of the Holocaust. I can tell you that the whole "Europa Plan" was an absurd notion and nothing more than wishful thinking. Hitler would have never authorized an evacuation plan on such a grand scale. Even the relative small Kastner train was halted for some months in Bergen-Belsen. He wanted the Jews wiped of the planet and the quicker the better r"l. It was a desperate plea from RMD and he was duped by some very low ranking Nazi that it will work. There are no evidence that even Eichmann was aware of this
ReplyDeleteBuddy. If every thing is so black and white than why is the whole Kastner issue the biggest taboo in Satmar and other than "The Dream" (Was there a separate dream on behalf R Y Steiff?) you will not hear much about Kastner
you are too generous to kastner...dont forget he went to nurenberg to testefy fqor kurt becher ,head of aushwitz a nd the c camps...
ReplyDeletemyhumbleopinion:
ReplyDeleteIf you reread teh article, you'll see that many points are merely assumptions. For example, we don't know why Wisliceny turned to Kastner, and so on.
In general the position of Zionists was as far as I know indeed - let them, Nazis, get rid of those old worlds Jews, as far as we will get our best futuristic men. In this case though Kastner himself did not strike down any percent of those who was allowed by Nazis to be evacuated. (Even though he might have chosen into that amount those he liked more.)
I don't care what the Zionist demand as a Thank you, I am merely stating that Thank you is required IMHO according to derech eretz shekodmo laToiro.
Anon 4:04
I understand about possible brain blow in Willy, I merely want to note that it would be better for themselves, healthier and more religious, so to speak, if they state some appreciation.
Can you please give some sources for your comments. Also,where is it stated that Gisl F. became an ex-Zionist?You've studied the subject,so please let's see the sources.
ReplyDeletewheb reb wilhelm from yerusholaim came to the u.s. in the 70s to fundraise he was harassed by the satmarerr chassidim for being a pro zionist lubavitcher (maybe the time was right after antebbe?. he then asked the rebbe (lubavitcher rebbe) what to tell them and the rebbe gave out a tzettel (the loshon isnt meduyak): פלוני ניצל ביום פלוני ועושה סעודה ביום פלוני...... וד"ל
ReplyDeleteTo Reb MHO:There are two chapters to this story and in Chapter One the key players were RMBW,Mrs. G.Fleischmann and the working group of Slovakia. However,at a certain point Eichmann decided that the only source for the trucks and money would have to be through the Yishuv and the Jewish Agency in so called Palesine. Kastner was the representative of the Jewish Agency in Budapest. Hence his role was essential to the German plan. That's why Joel Brand was taken to Istanbul-so he could meet with Moshe Sharett and get approval from the leaders of the Yishuv for the ransom-blackmail plan. Chapter 2 of so-called Europa was entirely dependant on the Zionist hierarchy in Tel-Aviv. That's why your thesis has no basis. The final phase included the Zionist leaders as the Nazis decided that only they could "deliver the goods" in money and materials for the war effort against the USSR.Hence,despite your assertions to the contrary ,it is clear that at this juncture it was the Zionists who the Nazis saw as their potential negotiating partners.Why would the Nazis want Moshe Sharett involved if RMBWeissmandel was really behind the negotiations?The answer is that your position does not stand the test of historical fact.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:06
ReplyDeleteI’m aware of the opinion of some that the whole “Europa Plan” was a dream and wishful thinking by RMD.
This is a school of thought first brought up by the so called holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer.
(I say so-called, not because he doesn’t have the historical knowledge on the issue, but rather because the man is a secular Jew and a heretic to boot, who despises “the old fashioned, and narrow minded” religious Jew.
This is evident by the numerous occurrences in his writings, where he will go out of his way to minimize anything done by religious Jews, and maximize any small thing done by non-religious Jews.
Since this is not the subject of this particular article, I will digress, after only this one example.
As you say you have knowledge on the subject, so you will of course be aware that RMD came up with idea of bombing the crematorium and the tracks caring the trains to Auschwitz, and thus stop the deportations, this has already been proven to be fact, the original handwriting of RMB request, has been located and is now in the library of congress, if I’m not mistaking.
Nevertheless Bauer doesn’t seem to believe the bombing was RMD idea.
Ok, I can understand someone having a difference of opinion, although it’s hard to have a different opinion in the face of documented history, still people are sometimes stubborn in their mindset.
So I would have no problem with his opinion, up until he gives the explanation for his opinion, he says something to the effect of, “it can’t be that a religious narrow-minded rabbi immersed in Talmudic studies could have come up with this brilliant idea of bombing Auschwitz”, this is his opinion on RMD, who was by every account a genius and a brilliant mind, who could come up with Einstein level brainstorms, let alone tactical things like the bombing, still Bauer – who has to be aware of RMD greatness, is utterly dismissive of him. And the reason lies in his own words, after all RMD was a “religious narrow-minded rabbi”, and this is enough for him to be dismissive of RMD regardless of the facts.)
Now back to your point, if you read the numbers letters of appeal that RMD sent to the free world, requesting money, you can see that he was keenly aware, that the whole thing could be a play by the Nazis to get the money and then deport anyway, still he thought that there is a big enough possibility, that they were genuine in the dealings, mostly because the individuals involved needed an alibi after the war if Germany lost, and they would also need money to live out their years, RMD always played on this weakness, always reminding them that If Germany lost they will be held responsible just like Hitler, so they were willing to do stuff – if not let the Jews go altogether, Couse this would’ve been impossible, since Hitler would’ve objected - like postponing deportations, and putting Jews in local camps – like was done in Slovakia successfully for two years – instead of sending them straight to Auschwitz, to their imminent death.
ReplyDeleteTime is what RMD needed more than anything, because he understood that the war was going to end sooner or later, and by then the Jews would be safe, all he had to do was gain as much time as possible.
This was also his thinking when he requested the bombing Auschwitz, he know that the Nazis were more than capable of repairing the damage, but since it was the end of the war, and the repairs will take some time, even a few days of postponing the deportations would’ve saved thousands and thousands of Jews, as they were deporting 12,000 Jews daily.
“There are no evidence that even Eichmann was aware of this”
There is evidence that Eichmann was aware of the dealings, just look in the transcripts of the Eichmann trial (you can now actually watch it now), where numerous witnesses say so.
“is the whole Kastner issue the biggest taboo in Satmar”
This is because most people don’t study history, and are mostly unaware of almost everything the article says, and since the anti-Satmar’s always use Kastner, as an attack on Satmar, people are uncomfortable with it.
tziki kedera:
“he went to Nuremberg to testify for Kurt becher”
I’m aware of that, and a lot of ink has been spilled trying to explain it away, it’s a very painful thing, and only because I have difficulty wrapping my head around the notion that Kastner was a traitor to his people, I choose to believe his excuse, that it was because he promised him to do so in the middle of the war, when he rescued him, and gave him protection, and Kastner felt after the war that he still owes it to him.
Hard and painful to understand, but then, it’s easier than the alternative.
Yokov:
“For example, we don't know why Wisliceny turned to Kastner”
Actually we do know, if you read the article carefully, you see that I give a reason, it was because Freudiger was sabotaged by Kastner and his group, the reason I didn’t put it in definite terms, is because the goal of the article is not an indictment on Kastner, so Anything not essential to the story, and hard on Kastner, I tried to water down.
“I am merely stating that Thank you is required”
I still stand by my opinion that no Thank you is required at all, but if you insist, I don’t think that a thank you, of the kind you like him to get, is a problem in anyone’s mind, the problem that most people have is the blanket statement “the Zionist rescues the Satmar rabbi”.
If I want in this article, from “THE ZIONITS RESCUED THE SATMAR REBBI” to “well em…… em …… a Zionist (Kastner) was somewhat, somewhere, somehow, involved” although it’s not a perfect deal, I’ll be willing to entertain the possibility of accepting it!!
Anon 1:07
“please give some sources for your comments”
The sources are numerous, a few books, documentaries, and a lot is from the Eichmann trial.
“where is it stated that Gisl F. became an ex-Zionist”
Form letters, she wrote during the rescue efforts.
myhumble.
ReplyDeleteYou are mixing apples and oranges. I never tried to undermine the efforts of RMD. Yes he did beg for the Auschwitz tracks to be bombed and Uncle Sam and according to some sources (not Sir Martin Gilbert) Churchill also shoved Auschwitz in the back seat. There is plenty of sin to go around. However anyone who honestly believes that there was a genuine chance of the so called Europa Plan is simply underestimating the hatred of Hitler and his henchmen towards the Jews. And even if Hitler would have agreed: Which country would have opened the border's for million's of Jews. Not the UK, certainly not the US. Oh I forgot, we could have sent millions to the Island of Madagascar! Does anyone in their right sanity believe in this ludicrous proposal?
And indeed their is no evidence that Eichmann or any other Nazi in an executive position, took this initiative on a serious note. They knew there Furer better than anyone.
Hirshel tzig is repeating the old zionistic public relations campaign of the lubavitcher rebbe: as Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete""when reb Wilhelm from yerusholaim came to the u.s. in the 70s to fundraiser he was harassed by the satmarerr chassidim for being a pro zionist lubavitcher he then asked the lubavitcher rebbe what to tell them and the rebbe gave out a tzettel (the loshon isnt meduyak): פלוני ניצל ביום פלוני ועושה סעודה ביום פלוני...... וד"ל""
The satmer rebbes opinion as stated in his seforim is, that by taking money from the zionists as lubavitch did, you have to promote their ideology: that a Jewish sovereignty is permissible before the coming of mushiach,
so nissen gordon on behalf of the lubavitcher rebbe on behalf of the zionist attacked the satmer rebbe, so to say: you took your rescue from the zionist and even party about it
But our proof is had the zionist contributed to the rebbes rescue he would have become MESHUCHED and his opposition to Zionism would have resolved
this piece of SHEKER is historical revisionism at it's best'or should i say at it's worse.
ReplyDeleteI happen to be a talmid of Harav.Weismandl Z'L.and i can tell you,he never ever took credit or even hinted that he had anything to do with the Kastner train,as a matter of fact,he himself writes in his sefer' MIN HAMEYTZAR'that by the middle of 1944,the working group had absolutely no more contact with Wisliceny and Eichman,as they had lost all their credibility with them,due to the unfortunate fact,that they were unable to come up with the balance of money's due, as part of the deal that stopped the deportations from Slovakia,and this is the reason Wisliceny was now dealing with the Kastner group.
and this insane and idiotic story about the dream,let me tell you'i have an uncle who was very close to the REBBE z;l,he once asked the rebbe himself about this story with the dream,the rebbe turned to him with a big smile,and said reb''===
ICH HOB GEMAINT IHR ZENT A KLIGER YID" i thought you were smarter than this'DER BUBA MAISA IZ PINKT AZOI EMES VEE 99% FON DI ANDERE REBBISHE BUBA MAISES" this fairy tale is just as true as 99% of other fairy tales,that chasidim make up about their rebbe's.
It is a well know fact that the Rebbe z"l was a big opponent to rebbishe story's,and used to say that 99% of chasidishe story's are absolutely not true,and are figments of someones imagination.
I guess this whole article was a figment of someones imagination or hallucenation.
CH.S
I don't know about the rescue train, but there were 25,000 other Jews who were shipped to Austria as slave laborers, apparently as a show of "good faith" by Eichmann to Kasztner; almost all of them survived. I can't imagine that Eichmann would have preserved the life of elderly Jewish women like my great-grandmother unless he thought he had something to gain.
ReplyDeleteTwo trains left the Szolnok ghetto; one went to Auschwitz and death; the other went to Strasshof and life. I had family members on both trains. May Hashem remember them for good, along with Yisroel (Rezső) Kasztner A"H.
Joe
ReplyDeletei heard that the nazis gave an option who wants to go to a holiday camp or to go to work
holiday camp meant auchwitz to work meant slave labour which 90 pre cent survived ten percent were killed by the allied straffing the trains
Anon 5:39
ReplyDeleteYou obviously didn’t read my comment thoroughly, as I state there explicitly that RMD didn’t think that Hitler will just let 1,000,000 Jews go (this is the number of Jews in the Europa Plan), all he wanted was a delay in the deportations, as he hoped that in-between the war would end.
This actually worked in Slovakia for two years, and I myself, given that my grandmother was from Slovakia, am here only because of that successful deal.
The fact that Hitler’s local henchmen had the power to delay the deportations, was proven in Slovakia, all RMD wanted was to extend it to the rest of the surviving Jews.
So no, he didn’t need Hitler to agree to let the Jews go, and he didn’t need to have a country willing to take them, he wanted them to stay in their place, and maybe build local labor camps, like he did successfully in Slovakia, with the tree camps in Novaky, Vyhne, and Sered.
This train, and the 21,000 Jews that were sent to Strasshof in June 1944 (in the “Jews on ice” deal, where they were also not set free, but still, they survived in exchange for money and hard labor), are farther proof that they were ready to deal, if not for the entire 1,000,000 Jews, but thousands and thousands, could’ve been saved under a deal, this was no illusion.
Anon 10:37
“I happen to be a talmid of Harav. Weismandl Z'L. and i can tell you, he never ever took credit or even hinted”
You claim to be a Talmud of RMD, well that would put you at around age 70, since he was niftar, in 1958 53 years ago, and you needed to be an adult to have been privy to a schmooze about the rescue efforts, well I somehow doubt that a 70 year old would comment on a blog, but then everything is possible.
But as soon as you put the name of RMD in one sentence with the words ” take credit”, you give yourself away, no genuine Talmud of RMD would ever put those two together, RMD never ever took credit for anything he did, except maybe when he wasn’t successful, then he took the blame on himself.
Did anyone ever hear RMD take credit for all the Jews he smuggled out of Poland at the beginning of the war?
Did he ever take credit for the Slovak rescue?
Did he ever take credit for the children transport he sent to England?
Did he ever take credit for sending the Auschwitz report to Switzerland, which ultimately stopped the deportations at the end of the war, and thus-by rescued the thousands of remaining Jews?
And these are just port of what this giant did at that time!!
No, and again no, RMD never took credit for anything he did, and if you were really a Talmud of RMD you should’ve known that.
“by the middle of 1944,the working group had absolutely no more contact with Wisliceny and Eichman”
This is not entirely different from what I wrote, I said that at the time that Wisliceny was moved to Hungary, and the working group stayed in Slovakia, the direct contact was stopped, but the negotiations continued thru Freudiger, and ultimately thru Kastner, but RMD himself absolutely had contact with Wisliceny even later, as I wrote in the article.
“were unable to come up with the balance of money's due, as part of the deal that stopped the deportations from Slovakia”
That’s just factually not true, they did – albeit after a delay – come up with the full amount of money 50,000 for the Slovak operation, the reason why he changed to Kastner, has already been said.
“and this insane and idiotic story about the dream”
As I said before, I don’t know if the dream was or wasn’t true, it’s just a miner possible explanation, to part of the story.
My humble opinion
ReplyDelete"Now since you brought it up, Gisl was indeed up until that time a Zionist, moreover she was the leader of the joint in her place of living, but as she started doing rescue work, she realized what the Zionist leadership, in the joint, in the yishuv, and otherwise, were up to, she renounced Zionism with all her might and power, in terms that makes the Satmar rabbi’s opposition, pale in comparison."
It's ironic that you white wash a non religious Zionist lady to fit your fictitious yom hatzolah revisionism,It reminds me of the theory of the Baal haGeula of Kislev 21 in his infamous sefer Vayoel, he whitewashes King Achav that he was not a rosha, he was a Big Tzadik, why did he go to that stretch with the Titelbaum Pilpulim? because he needed to place the Tzadikim and Geonim like the holy Belzer Ruv and the Goan hador the Chebiner who differed with his newfound religion, in a new criteria.
Anon
ReplyDelete"However anyone who honestly believes that there was a genuine chance of the so called Europa Plan is simply underestimating the hatred of Hitler and his henchmen towards the Jews."
you are 100% correct with your facts, it is very important to shed light of this sad episode,
Obviously the Natrunua Pr machine will twist and spin, they are learning from Hitler pr Guy, Gobeles how to do mass brainwashing, also they are waiting for the survivors to die out, in order they should be able to deny the obvious and create new lies.
it is very important to read the books of the holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer on these matters,
He believes that Rmd Wiessmandel meant well but had no realistic chance in hell to succeed.
My humble opinion
ReplyDelete"Now since you brought it up, Gisl was indeed up until that time a Zionist, moreover she was the leader of the joint in her place of living, but as she started doing rescue work, she realized what the Zionist leadership, in the joint, in the yishuv, and otherwise, were up to, she renounced Zionism with all her might and power, in terms that makes the Satmar rabbi’s opposition, pale in comparison."
Did Gisele start visiting the Mikveh in Budapest and buying at the kosher butcher?
or as long she became anti Zionist you are fine with her, since according you newfound religion, only the 3 oaths matter?
Anon
ReplyDelete"and this insane and idiotic story about the dream,let me tell you'i have an uncle who was very close to the REBBE z;l,he once asked the rebbe himself about this story with the dream,the rebbe turned to him with a big smile,and said reb''===
ICH HOB GEMAINT IHR ZENT A KLIGER YID" i thought you were smarter than this'DER BUBA MAISA IZ PINKT AZOI EMES VEE 99% FON DI ANDERE REBBISHE BUBA MAISES" this fairy tale is just as true as 99% of other fairy tales,that chasidim make up about their rebbe's."
I appreciate your info, and I had the same belief that it is a hoax,but unfortunately since you are cloaked under a anonymous, it his impossible to quote your important info.
I understand that since you belong to this surrounding, you will not come out with your real name, you and your family will be railroaded to the abyss.
Anon
ReplyDelete"He saw Zionism as the biggest obstacle to the Jewish people, and even said that it stood in the way of the Jewish nation’s ultimate redemption, the coming of Moshiach (the Messiah)."
What did the Rebbe (RJT) think about the millions of Jews that were assimilated in the USA?
Did that effect the redemption? Or he heard from the holy Nasader Ruv that only and only the Zionists are in the way of the redemption?
After a long and difficult struggle rabbi Joel Teitelbaum was finally elected and then installed as rav of the Yereim in Satmar. The whole kehillo in Satamar was well over 30,000 Jews . After all this struggle why did the rebbe leave his community leaderless and leave Satmar and then leave Hungary ?
ReplyDeleteShould the captain not be the last to leave ?
This is a most difficult chapter of Holocaust history in which a small numbe of rabbis in official capacities deserting their communities (And I do not mean the Belzer and Lubavitcher Rebbes ).
The right hand man of rav Joel in the US was rav in a historic Ashkenazi kehillo in Oberland he deserted his kehillo and left for Pest leaving the kehillo leaderless and under the leadership in this difficult time of the shochet. I met the shochet"s son who will not bear mention of this so called gadol. may i also ask the writer of this essay why the Rebbe did not take Reb Feivisz Ashkenazi with him ?
There is a least one Orthodox academic in Israel working on a book on the subject of rabbinic leadership or lack of it in the period of 1939-1945. I eagerly await his serious research.
MHO: Please tell me where your assertion about Mrs.Gisl F.becoming non-zionist can be checked. In history,just like in learning you need a mareh mokom. Please provide it for the olem.Thanks.
ReplyDeleteAnon 2:59
ReplyDelete“It's ironic that you white wash a non religious Zionist lady”
This was no attempt to “white wash” anyone, it was a response to the comment about Gisi being a Zionist, so I said that she changed her view on Zionism at the end.
And BTW, for Gisi’s sake, as far as know, I don’t think Gisi can be described as non-religious, she obviously moved away from her family’s ways, but I don’t think she was unreligious, but I might be mistaking.
“fit your fictitious yom hatzolah revisionism”
I like the way you throw around the “revisionism” word, but can’t come up with fact to counter the article!
Anon 3:08
“it is very important to read the books of the holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer on these matters,”
I don’t know if you sew what I said about Bauer before, just read it! He can be trusted on this issue” like a cat over milk”
I can’t understand how people trust the opinion of a secular heretic that hates Religious Jews, writing after the fact, and in the same time, not trust RMD, who was there on the ground, and sew it working in Slovakia, and just tried to redo it on a bigger scale.
Anon 3:35
This article is not about Zionism, it’s about the rescue of the Satmar Rebbe, I will just rewrite what I wrote before:
“If you don’t have anything intelligent to add about the issue, why don’t you refrain from commenting, and we will all be very ready to forgive you!”
Winston Rupert
ReplyDelete"And I do not mean the Belzer and Lubavitcher Rebbes )."
can you tell me where should of the Belzer ruv stay in the empty town of Belz? he was on the run for 3 years
Why, because some historian would wish so?
Winston
ReplyDelete"why did the rebbe leave his community leaderless and leave Satmar and then leave Hungary ?"
Did Satmar Rav leave Satmar when it was sill a vibrant Kehila? Were the Jews in satmar not in the Ghetto then?
Do you know the facts?
My Humble
ReplyDelete"So, do you also think that the twelve hundred or so, who were rescued by Oskar Schindler, were rescued by Catholicism? Of course not they were rescued by a person that happened to be a Catholic, the same way that Gisl happened to be a – till that time (as I will elaborate after this thought) – a Zionist, the story why Kastner is different, is because his rescue efforts were thru the official Zionist organizations. "
can I use this logic on the 6 day war in Israel that Miracles happened to all frum Jews and they should all celebrate Yom Yerushaliem,it just happened to be rescued by Zionists
A little analysis:
ReplyDeleteThe SR created a shitteh that says that Zionism can never become botel even if you have a thousand times more of Torah and Yiras Shomayim in the tepel-still the Zionism is such a noisen taam that it pasels the mixture. Read the Veyoel Moshe about the Knesses "Haminim" and you'll see what I mean. The problem is that the SR himself was saved by a Zionist and Zionism can never become botel. Hence the "khemiker" in Satmar have come up with the only possible solution that RMBW saved the SR and not Kastner. However,that's not enough because Mrs.G.Fleischmann,RMD Weissmandel's co-leader was also a very strong Zionist. Hence she too had to do teshuvah and we can proclaim the maychel kosher and completely free of Zionist ingredients.This whole "guilt by association" even on a microscopic level is a Satmarer invention.They use it against the Agudah,Belz,and Lubavitch. Now they have to find a way out of a trap that they themselves created.
BTW Who owns the copyright infringement right's to "The Dream"?
ReplyDeleteIs it Gelbman, Sender Deutch, or Hertz Frankel?
Humbleopinion.
It's one thing to grease the hand's of some local henchman. Fill the pockets of some greedy Nazi guard. Thats what Oskar Schindler did. And that's what Kastner did. But the Europa Plan was in direct violation of The Final Solution.
So again, to have someone come here after seventy year's of countless data which is available out there, and to boldly claim that Hitler would have threw his whole warped ideology down the river, for a return of some cash. This is nothing short of playing Advocate's devil.
Winston Roper:
ReplyDeleteWhy don’t you please not go off topic, this is not what the discussion is about, please stick to the issue at hand, or leave.
Thank You
Anon 4:12
“your assertion about Mrs.Gisl F.becoming non-zionist can be checked”
I will look it up, if my memory serves me right, It shows in the letters she wrote in the war, but it could be that I only heard so from Talmudim of RMD (I learned in Nitra Yeshiva, and had the opportunity to meet quite a few of them) I will have to check again .
But remember, it doesn’t change anything even if she was a Zionist as stated in my previous comments.
Anon 4:46
“can I use this logic on the 6 day war in Israel”
No you can’t.
See the end of the quote you bring: “the story why Kastner is different, is because his rescue efforts were thru the official Zionist organizations”, do you understand the difference between someone’s personnel fault, and a faulty organization?
No one has a problem with the efforts of Hillel Kook for example, even thou he personally was non-religious.
Catch-22:
See the comment above this one to Anon 4:46
Anon 5:58
Oskar Schindler had about 1,100 or so Jews, that’s small potatoes in comparison to halting the deportations for all of Slovakia for two years.
Halting the deportations for all of Slovakia for two years, was also a “direct violation of The Final Solution”, again as I said before, no one thought that Hitler would “threw his whole warped ideology down the river”, all RMD wanted was to gain time.
This is what he wanted to gain by bombing the rails, and this is what ultimately saved the last Jews of Hungary, where because of the Auschwitz report being publicized, the Hungarian government had to stop the cooperation with the Nazis in deporting the remaining Jews, and while the Nazis kept on warning the Hungarian government that they will make them pay for this, and then deport the Jews anyway, because of gaining those crucial few days, the war ended, and the Jews were saved.
All he needed was to win time, as is the strategy, in any hostage situation.
Anonymous of 11:16:00 AM: I think you're mixing different stories. In Szolnok most people didn't get a choice about which train to be on. Someone must have known that people in the "A" train would be treated better, because people with prestige, money, and connections were assigned to it. A few people sensed this and were able to argue their way aboard; a few people argued their way onto the "B" train and their deaths.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, the people running this operation were Hungarians. Some may have been members of the Arrow Cross, but they weren't Nazis per se. Most of them were just Hungarian gendarmes carrying out orders.
Once the train(s) reached Strasshof there was a lot of confusion about who would be assigned where. Most of my family members were very fortunate in that they were assigned to a farm with a decent administrator (it was a nationalised Jewish farm), but even the less fortunate ones had a much better chance of survival than the Jews left behind - I don't know if anyone from that train survived. יזכרם אלוקינו לטובה עם שאר צדיקי עולם וינקום נקמת דם עבדיו השפוך
Catch 22
ReplyDeleteGut gezugt,
are you related to the Titelbaum family? you traced down their way of twisted logic...or Belly Logic, (translation of Boich sevorois in the book the Rebbe)and backfired it on them.
My Humble opinion
ReplyDelete"No one has a problem with the efforts of Hillel Kook for example, even thou he personally was non-religious."
who is the "NO one" You and your wife?
No one(in the jewish world) has a problem with anything related to your newfound religioun based on a Midrash of shir hashirim
My humble opinion
ReplyDeletecan I ask you a question, why did not Satmar Ruv stay in nazi occupied Germany, and send a telegram to Eichman,Mengele, to pick him up and take him R"L to Auschwitz?
according to the Mharal all the 3 oaths are Yeherag Veal Yavoir, so if the nazi regime wanted to kill, you have listen(not be merida beumoth) and go like a sheep to the slaughterhouse?
Give me some more of you nonsense, I enjoy reading it.
Tell me something : How is it that RMBWeismandel is not guilty of violating the "3 oats"by his call for the Jews in Budapest to resist the deportations to Auschwitz? He called for the Jews on the trains to resist and try to escape. He himself used a knife to cut through a door or a lock and jumped out of the train on the way to Auschwitz? How is this not a violation of the three oats which SR says are yehoreig veal yaavor.Can someone explain how a call for resistance from RMBW is ok but the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were guilty of merideh beumos?Do you thing RMBW was calling for civil disobedience? I don't think that would have worked very well against Eichmann and Himmler YM"SH.
ReplyDeleteI think that if we the readers calculated the various posts and comments here we would find that postings related to Hungarian Jewry out number the postings about Lubavitch.
ReplyDeleteI thought the blog leader here was a Lubavitcher and the subject matter was a more civilized and less offensive discussion of Lubavitch but at most Lubavitch comes up only from time to time and recently even less frequently.
is there nothing to speak about in Chabad history ?
Are the Schneersohns that boring that we need to write about the Teitelbaums , Belzer Spinker rebbes ?
Is there nothign going on in CH. No issues regarding rabbonim, kahal etc etc. Are there no interesting personalities in CH fun eleteren dor to write about ?
Is the state of Chabad education presenlty so acceptable that there is no interest in discussing it ?
Is lubavitch in Israel free of issues ?
Is the future of Chabad so clear and sunny that no discussion of this matter is interesting ?
Are various local Chabad houses and franchises so free of problems that no one would be interested?
Are there so few new Chabad seforim being churned out that we can not review them ?
Are the youth of Chabad so conservative in their lifestyle that no new inyonim crop up in their cultural values ?
Is the history of Chabad in White Russia so sterile , so free of forceful personalities and rabbonim that we need to discuss Bukowina and the Teitelbaums constantly? Can we only talk about Hungarian shtetlech, does anyone even know about the various White Russian Chaabd communities ?
It seesm that the only Chabad related discussion that excites anyone on this site is in relation to Barry Gourary(and his father, mother and mentor the Rachal) mention him and everyone gets hot under the collar, otherwise lets talk about Kokosh cake and other Magyar matters.
Lets get back to a discussion of Chabad matters !
Schneur
ReplyDeleteis that all you have to say?????????????
Anon 8:48, Anon 8:57, Anon 10:05
ReplyDeleteAre you guys deaf, dumb, or both? Which part of “please stay on topic” don’t you guys get? Again please, please,” STAY ON TOPIC”.
Thank You
And BTW, you don’t even have a starting understanding of Reb Yoel’s “Shita”, why don’t you get yourselves acquainted with his teachings, and then ask questions, otherwise you look like utter fools! Sorry!
Anon 8:51
“who is the "NO one" You and your wife?”
By no one I meant, for example, the 400 rabbis from all walks of life, from every denomination and creed, who took part in the rabbi’s march to the white house, organized by Hillel Kook (Peter Bergson), no one checked if Hillel put on “Rabanu Tam’s Tefilin”, they just marched.
Reb Schneur, שליט"א
ReplyDeleteI feel your pain, but it's either one of two things:
People send me סחורה and I write about them, or I write about things that are מן הבא ביד,
Lubavitch is not always in the above 2 categories, especially since I don't always have the time. But I will try and focus on that in the future.
ייש"כ
humble opinion
ReplyDelete"And BTW, you don’t even have a starting understanding of Reb Yoel’s “Shita”, why don’t you get yourselves acquainted with his teachings, and then ask questions, otherwise you look like utter fools! Sorry!"
how many times do I have to learn the Veyoel, to get acquainted with the shitah?
Or I have to read for 15 years the Der Yid Der Blatt Di Tziutung?
If what you're saying about Hillel Kook is true then why are you going to such extreme lengths to show that Kastner was not responsible for saving the SR? Was Kastner worse than Hillel Kook? For your information Hillel Kook was a farbrente Zionist Revisionist who supported the revolt against England in E.Y.I believe Kook later became an MK.So he was kosher but Kastner was treif?Kook had connections to the highest echelons of power in the revisionist quarters and he was much more than a private individual who happened to be a Zionist Revisionist.Why the big deal over Kastner?Like Kook,he,too, represented the Yishuv- only in his case it was the more moderate Labor ideaology.If Kook was kosher for the 400 Rabbis ,why are you getting bent out of shape over Kastner saving the SR?Is it unimaginable that a Zionist could have saved the SR?Even if we accept your thesis which is far from proven,you have to concede that the rescue effort was turned over to Kastner as he had numerous meetings with Eichmann and other S.S. officials culminating in Brand going to Istanbul. Even according to your version ,Kastner had a considerable hand in saving the SR.Did RMBW or his representative have anything to do with sending Joel Brand to negotiate with the Jewish Agency in Turkey and later in Allepo? No,but Kastner did.He was in charge and he was the man of the hour.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDelete"400 rabbis from all walks of life, from every denomination and creed, who took part in the rabbi’s march to the white house,"
FYI,
all this 400(orthodox) rabonim were pro the creation of the state Israel, and had no problem with no Zionist, unless the Malach was on that march, which I believe didn't happen, probably was not alive, and did not participate in this kind of events.
So I am getting back to the fact of "you and your wife"
Hirshel
ReplyDeleteAre you monitored by the FCC fairness doctrine?
do you need legally balanced dirt coverage?
or Schneur scares the hell out of you?
Humble opinion
ReplyDelete"Are you guys deaf, dumb, or both? Which part of “please stay on topic”
the questions that these people asked you is the main topic, because without the terrible sin of the 3 oaths, you would not even argue about who saved RJT?
this is the Shoresh kol chatoim, isn't it?
schneur said... Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:38:00 AM
ReplyDelete“I thought the blog leader here was a Lubavitcher” hirshels preamble: does not mention lubab.
“is there nothing to speak about in Chabad history ?” plenty to speak of like the mershab’s and the reyy’s z”l anti zionist and anti agudah anti modern hebrew stance, (very similar to the satmar shita) which current lubab are denial of! So is ‘belz of today’ but atleast they know it and are trying to justify and twist their forebearers shitas, not like lubab who are either not aware of of, or just num on it.
“Is the history of Chabad in White Russia so sterile” actually very rich, but very little pertaining to the current sorbonne/CH zeitgeist lubab.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlthough old lubavitch indeed had nothing to do with secular education and there was some very strong language against Zionism,I assure all my Satmarer friends that the Lubavitcher chosid fun amol[rebbe Rashab and Maharyatz's times] had nothing in common with the ingarishe tzaddikim fun Willy and Boro Park. I assure you. Nothing in common. An ander metsius.Those who saw the last of the Temimim,the sheyorei knesses hagedolah who came from Russia know what I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteHarry N:
ReplyDelete“Was Kastner worse than Hillel Kook”
The point is not who was personally worse, or anything to do with personality for that matter, the point is that the rescue efforts by Kastner were the official rescue efforts of the Zionists, whereas the efforts of Kook was a personal campaign that had nothing to do with the Zionist, at least not in an official capacity, his being a Zionist personally, has nothing to do with what he did outside of his ideology.
“why are you getting bent out of shape over Kastner saving the SR?”
I’m not getting bent in anyway, just trying to get the historical facts straight.
“you have to concede that the rescue effort was turned over to Kastner”
I’ll just repeat what I said before:
The point is that he didn’t have a part in “this”, “he just let the already accruing play out” (and by some accounts minimize it), but there was nothing “new” that he added that brought it to fruition.
One more thing I’ll like to say, as I wrote before:
If I want in this article, from “THE ZIONITS RESCUED THE SATMAR REBBI” to “well em…… em …… a Zionist (Kastner) was somewhat, somewhere, somehow, involved” although it’s not a perfect deal, I’ll be willing to entertain the possibility of accepting it!!
Anon 2:51
“because without the terrible sin of the 3 oaths, you would not even argue about who saved RJT?”
It happens to be that I studied the history of RMD, and thus by came to what I wrote, it had nothing to do with the 3 oaths!
But it doesn’t really make a difference, the question is not why I came up with the story, the question is the facts in the story.
L.fun Amol said...
ReplyDelete"I assure all my Satmarer friends that the Lubavitcher chosid fun amol[rebbe Rashab and Maharyatz's times] had nothing in common with the ingarishe tzaddikim fun Willy and Boro Park. I assure you"
true, and neither does the 'ingarishe tzaddikim' of yesterday nothing to do with 'none of us' today either
Anon
ReplyDelete"which current lubab are denial of!"
Did Kehot print the letters of the Marashab against Zionisim?
Yes or no?
Who was the owner of Kehot? Moshe Ber Beck? or Rebinie hakodesh baal Likutie Sichas?
Anon
ReplyDelete"true, and neither does the 'ingarishe tzaddikim' of yesterday nothing to do with 'none of us' today either"
I can go in to details, but hungarians especial Satmar did not have yeridas hadoirois,
Humble Opinion
ReplyDelete"The point is not who was personally worse, or anything to do with personality for that matter, the point is that the rescue efforts by Kastner were the official rescue efforts of the Zionists, whereas the efforts of Kook was a personal campaign that had nothing to do with the Zionist, at least not in an official capacity, his being a Zionist personally, has nothing to do with what he did outside of his ideology"
thats why the revisionisim office of Natrunua is burning alot of latenight candle oil, to work up every few years a new version.
Btw,is your new theory consistent with Hershel Friedman(Purim) book on the Rebbe zechusoi ...hatzolah.
he was from the early Kastner deniers.
Anon
ReplyDelete"An ander metsius.Those who saw the last of the Temimim,the sheyorei knesses hagedolah who came from Russia know what I'm saying."
the last Tomim from amoliger chabad was reb Yudel Chitrik, I can bring 10 plane loads of bucherim and yungeliet that are talmidim of Rebinie hakodash Baal Likutie sichas, that are standing taller then him in Avoda ,Havonas chasidus.
I am not degrading reb yudel chas vesholem, I am using him as a example of the oldest tomim of late.
Anon
ReplyDelete"So is ‘belz of today’ but atleast they know it and are trying to justify and twist their forebearers shitas, not like lubab who are either not aware of of, or just num on it."
where is the source of the Lubavich denial?
Anon
ReplyDelete"plenty to speak of like the mershab’s and the reyy’s z”l anti zionist and anti agudah anti modern hebrew stance, (very similar "
Did Satmar ruv still lead the fight agaist maskilim (as the Sanzer ruv the rolemodel that he strived to emulate)or against aron Chariner/Neologs ( as the Chasam Sofer /R'Hilel Kolomayer the rolemodel that he strived to emulate)??
Why not? because he believed it is water under the bridge, So Rebinie Hakodash Baal Likutie Sichas with his holy mind decided that zionisim is over and there are different wars to fight.
did he have to ask the Kapisher ruv what to do?
Guys, guys, get back on track!!
ReplyDeleteanon
ReplyDelete"“Is the history of Chabad in White Russia so sterile” actually very rich,"
you really know chabad history!!!!!
My humble opinion
ReplyDelete" and his cousin, Mrs. Gisi Fleischmann. In order to stop the deportation - after a considerable effort
besides the Apikores Zionist Mrs Flieschman (as you say in willi Yud Mem shien)I still remeber from years ago when I was following RMD Wiessmandel, there was also involved a Jew By the name Kraus, a Mizrachist, (as you see in willi Yud Mem Shien)
So we have a cast of the following,
RMD Non Zionist 30 percent
Gisi Flieschman Zionist 30 percent
Kraus Mizrachi 30 percent
Kastner zinist 9 percent
Dream of Mommy 1 percent
so you are still in bad shape with your theory,
go back to the drawing board and get back to the Tzig farm with a new scenario
Anon
ReplyDelete"This is a school of thought first brought up by the so called holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer.
(I say so-called, not because he doesn’t have the historical knowledge on the issue, but rather because the man is a secular Jew and a heretic to boot, who despises “the old fashioned, and narrow minded” religious Jew.
This is evident by the numerous occurrences in his writings, where he will go out of his way to minimize anything done by religious Jews, and maximize any small thing done by non-religious Jews."
I read his books and never saw that yehuda bauer should minimize deeds of religous jews, As far as I saw he is skeptic on Rav Wiessmandel end result, if it was not a pipe dream.
Can you bring other examples of his anti religous bias?
in all your psuedo research you only use info al tharas hakodesh?
anon: "did he have to ask the Kapisher ruv what to do?"
ReplyDelete'Kapisher ruv' was a real goan who wrote responses in halacha as a godel! a talmid from tzadigi emes from the last generation! and of strong mind and will, he didn't have to ask ... either.
anon said "Did Kehot print the letters of the Marashab against Zionisim?"
ReplyDeletekehot who?
ps: the letters can be dowloaded free
My humble opinion said:
ReplyDelete"RMD Non Zionist 30 percent
Gisi Flieschman Zionist 30 percent
Kraus Mizrachi 30 percent
Kastner zinist 9 percent
Dream of Mommy 1 percent"
total 100% , leaving out yourself? now that's humble!
If there are ten plane loads of Hassidim who can put the old Temimim in their kleine keshkelle,then please tell me why there isn't anyone whose farbrengens have even the slightest hassidishe taam today?There's a difference between an actor and the real thing.There are people who try "nochtzumachen" di alte but it's a waste of time and ends up being ridiculous.Maybe they'd be better off farbrengen in English like RLG and give up the pretense. And where did you get this "Rabbeinie Hakodosh baal Likutei Sichos" expression? Does not sound authentic to me.I never heard any of the Rebbes ever referred to in such a language.
ReplyDeletemy dear,Myhumbleopinion" i got news for you,you are not humble and your opinion is worthless,i am sure you are aware,that when Kastner negotiated and finally aranged the transport to Switzerland,Harav Weismandl z"l,was hiding in a bunker in the forest somewhere in Slovakia,therefore he had absolutely nothing to do with it,yes the orthodox community in Budapest thru Mr.Freudiger and Kahan Frankl,helped Kastner in raising the funds needed for this.but as far as Harav,Weismandl is concerned he had absolutely nothing to with it,as a matter of fact,he most probably was not even aware of it.
ReplyDeleteCH.S
Anon 7:12
ReplyDelete“Can you bring other examples of his anti religous bias”
The reason I said Bauer minimizes anything done by religious Jews, is because of the way he dismisses the work of RMD, and says that there was no possibility on making deals, and for them to be successful, and that no high germen officials were involved, whilst, prepping up the negotiations by Brand, as being the real thing, a real possibility of success, with the involvement of high germen officials, All of a sudden there was the possibility of making deals, and they did take it seriously.
Also the way he dismisses the efforts by Kook, because IMHO, the rabbis march was headed by orthodox rabbis that couldn’t have an effect in his view.
And basically, his pushing the official view of Yad Veshem, which until recently, didn’t even mention the work of the “working group”, in any way.
But all of this could still be claimed to be coincidental, until he gives the Anti-religious reason why he doesn’t believe that RMD, came up with the idea of bombing Auschwitz, as I quoted in a previous comment, that says it all.
But the reason I say the Europa plan did have the possibility of working, is not because Bauer is anti- religious or a heretic (I hope you don’t expect me to quote his heresy), it’s because as I laid it out, the facts on the ground support it, so it doesn’t really change anything if he is, or isn’t Anti-religious.
The reason I brought up Bauer’s Anti-religious bias and his heresy, is so even if someone doesn’t agree with him, but would still like to accept his views as another opinion, should be aware of his bias, and calculate his opinions value accordingly.
Anon 7:40
“My humble opinion said”
“Humble opinion” didn’t say it, Anon 7:00 said it, and quite stupidly so, if I may.
Why HTz does not dedicate many posts to Lubavicher problems is obvious:
ReplyDeleteEven the name of the blog is suggesting that the purpose of the blog from the outset is to balance the dirt that is thrown at Lubavich picturing it as the one and only evil of the orthodox world.
So HTz shows that others do have not lesser if not bigger problems, exposing the baseless hatred of these so called stand ups for what is right.
Anon 10:17
ReplyDelete“Harav Weismandl z"l, was hiding in a bunker in the forest somewhere in Slovakia, therefore he had absolutely nothing to do with it”
We went over this already, but I will give it a go again.
My article clearly states that the negotiations went from RMD to Freudiger to Kastner, so there is nothing new you’re saying here, the money came from community in Budapest thru Freudiger, who in turn was RMD agent, and he had contact with RND all the time as he clearly states in his testimony, at the Eichmann trial, for your information, RMD did more, hiding in his bunker, than did Kastner going around free, with a germen sanctioned passport.
And again, even if he did not have any connection to the whole thing at the end, still he put the “train in motion” (pun intended) for the rescue.
And just to put it into prospective, who gets the credit for bringing down the iron curtain in the USSR, H. W. Bush, in Whose time it actually accrued, or Ronald Reagan, who made it happen, and wasn’t president at the time anymore?
muy humble opinion
ReplyDeleteif you follow the historian Bauer, you will realize that he is not a person that carries a party line, he is frie but no zionist,
so all your words on him is nonsense, you are biased by throwing on a good historian a label
L.fun Amol said...
ReplyDelete...,I assure all my Satmarer friends that the Lubavitcher chosid fun amol[rebbe Rashab and Maharyatz's times] had nothing in common with the ingarishe tzaddikim fun Willy and Boro Park. I assure you. Nothing in common. An ander metsius.
===
And I assure all my Lubavitcher friends that the Lubavitcher chosid fun amol[rebbe Rashab and Maharyatz's times] had nothing in common with the ingarishe tzaddikim fun Willy and Boro Park. I assure you. Nothing in common. An ander metsius.
L.fun Amol said...
ReplyDelete...,I assure all my Satmarer friends that the Lubavitcher chosid fun amol[rebbe Rashab and Maharyatz's times] had nothing in common with the ingarishe tzaddikim fun Willy and Boro Park. I assure you. Nothing in common. An ander metsius.
===
And I assure all my Lubavitcher friends that the Lubavitcher chosid fun amol[rebbe Rashab and Maharyatz's times] had nothing in common with the ingarishe tzaddikim fun Willy and Boro Park. I assure you. Nothing in common. An ander metsius.
Anon 5:48
ReplyDelete“he is not a person that carries a party line”
You might be right, it might just be me, and it doesn’t really change anything in the article, since his opinion is flawed, as was discussed before.
But I don’t think you can say that I have cast a label on an innocent man.
when the person thinks he has a better plan then G-d to steer creation, and explicitly says so, and someone who also thinks that a deeply religious person, cannot be smart and tactical, that sure is biased, it’s not me putting the label, it’s he himself.
Even according to your version ,Kastner had a considerable hand in saving the SR.Did RMBW or his representative have anything to do with sending Joel Brand to negotiate with the Jewish Agency in Turkey and later in Allepo? No,but Kastner did.He was in charge and he was the man of the hour.
ReplyDeleteactually they did, and he was double crossed by the zionists, read perfidy
grainom:
ReplyDeleteYou obviously didn’t read all the comments, as this very issue was discussed numerous times.
and yes I read perfidy.
Perfidy is the work of a Hollywood screen writer who became enamored with super right-wing Zionist ideaology and like all good writers of fiction used some truths and embellished them with out of context quotes and flights of imagination.Perfidy is not taken seriously by any historians. It is a political rant.It's amazing how Satmar and Brisk types warm up to the propaganda written by a non-religious Hollywood writer with strong Irgun and Revisionist beliefs. By the way check the Jerusalem Post web site and you'll find that recent letters reveal that Golda Meir worked to try to get Roosevelt to bomb the rails to Auschwitz. So did Haim Weitzman. Please read some history from real historians not from the "Achorayim of History."It feels good to blast the Labor Zionists but history reveals things to be quite different than the imaginary "frum history of the Holocaust."The Yishuv leaders were hardly the monsters they are portrayed as being.They,too,had brothers and sisters trapped in the hell that was Europe.
ReplyDeleteharry N
ReplyDeletethanks for your refrence to Golda Mier's letters.
But the question for the Satmar anti Zionists, is that why are you still against a Begin, Shamir and Netanayou government , Bibi comes from a family that were the staunchest fighter of the Mapam and Labor parties that were involved with Wietzman and his ilk.
I guess that it is not really their problem.
My Humble opinion
ReplyDelete"when the person thinks he has a better plan then G-d to steer creation, and explicitly says so, and someone who also thinks that a deeply religious person, cannot be smart and tactical, that sure is biased, it’s not me putting the label, it’s he himself."
I am on the same page with you that Historian Bauer is not donning Rebinie Taam Tefilin and is not burning his nails every Friday noon,
But in the secular world, academics try to hold their profession dear to their heart, they don't mess with facts.
As an example you will utilize scientific research done by university doctors on life an death matters.Eventough the doctor was a atheist, Because you have confidence that his profession is important to him.
Obviously their are charlatans, forgery ,plagiarizer in academia, but as a whole, it a is a very valued institution with honest people, specifically on their research.
Anon2:32 The average frum fellow doesn't know what you're talking about.He doesn't know what academic objectivity is. He's gone through years of propaganda and indoctrination about various shittes and the "absolute perfection" of various Gedolim.The scientific method and a committment to investigation and research is beyond the comprehension of the Hassidic world and many in the farfrumte yeshive velt. The average chossid knows the "truth" because he's heard it repeated innumerable times from cradle to beis medrash.Ay,es shtimt nit mitn emes,nu,meileh,eich mir a daygeh...Ay,Dr. Chaim Veitzman begged the British to bomb the tracks to Auschwitz-why should anyone be concerned with such minor matters. Please don't confuse me with the facts.
ReplyDeleteThe story of Haim Veitzman and Moshe Sharett's meeting with British FM Anthony Eden can be read on the web site of the Aushwitz-Birkenau museum.While I greatly respect RMBW,it must be duly acknowledged that the Zionists whom everyone loves to hate were actually meeting with the highest ranking British officials to try to stop the extermination of European Jewry by the exact same method that RMDW was espousing.
ReplyDeleteAnon 2:32
ReplyDeleteNo need to argue this point again, because as I said before, the fact are against Bauer not his being secular, also, although I find it hard to believe, it is a possibility - as you say -, that he keeps his biases out of his opinions, I was just repudiating the accusation, that I put a label on him.
Harry N.
You almost said it better then Bauer himself…
and keep this in mind, very similar to your opinion, is what the average anti-Semite think about all the JOOOOS.
It is not an opinion but a fact. Does anyone in the Hassidic world know what the truth is-in any subject- scientific or historical-outside of the core gemoreh curricullum? Young men spend hours listening to how evil the Zionists were and how only Rabbi Weissmandel wanted to help the European Jews. Then tell me why Weitzmann and Sharett,the two biggest Zionists next to DBG, met with Anthony Eden and Winston Churchill to convince the allies to bomb Auschwitz and/or the tracks leading to it?Will anyone in the Yeshivos hakedoshos admit that Golda Meier tried desperately to get FDR to bomb the tracks as has been proven in her correspondence?You'll forgive me if I don't take your centers of academic excellence in Williamsburg and Monsey too seriously when it comes to subjects outside of Gemoroh - Tosfos.I guess when you can't address yourself to real issues you can always bring in the JOOOS and anti-semitism.It's a convenient red herring.After all,why should you admit that the Zionist leaders did in fact care about their brothers in Europe?That would be the ultimate "heresy "after a lifetime of thought-control and indoctrination.
ReplyDeletesome zionist leaders cared, others not, most famously itzhak greenberg of the jewish agency who said the land would only be ours with blood...
ReplyDeleteMy Humble opinion
ReplyDelete"No need to argue this point again, because as I said before, the fact are against Bauer not his being secular,"
Did you see Bauers chapters in his book, regarding Rav
Wiessmandel?
You are rehashing the same nonfounded accusations.
Is Bauer a good historian as a whole? Do you have the scientific skills, to repudiate a professional historian?
Also what exactly is your problem if Kastner did help Satmar Rebbe?
will Sarmar Rebbe's Gadlus be diminished if a secular Jew helped him?
Were all the doctors that healed Satmar Ruv anti Zionist and believed in the 16 principles? (13 of klal yisroel 3 of satmar)
You think that hashem yisborech does not have a nachas ruach when a Zionist like Kastner does a good deed as to save a Godel B'yisroel?
Reb Michoel Ber has enough Zechusim,leave that 1 Zechus for a Jew that his naked of Mitzvahs.
Harry N
ReplyDelete"The average chossid knows the "truth" because he's heard it repeated innumerable times from cradle to beis medrash.Ay,es shtimt nit mitn emes,nu,meileh,eich mir a daygeh...Ay,Dr. Chaim Veitzman begged the British to bomb the tracks to Auschwitz-why should anyone be concerned with such minor matters. Please don't confuse me with the facts."
Harry,
Not all chasidim have joined this obsessive hate bandwagon, it his basically a satmar thing with some brisker neo Kanuim.
Anon
ReplyDelete"most famously itzhak greenberg of the jewish agency who said the land would only be ours with blood..."
who is it famous?
My humble opinion
ReplyDelete"and keep this in mind, very similar to your opinion, is what the average anti-Semite think about all the JOOOOS."
where is the antisemitism here?
Harry N:
ReplyDeleteNothing to add,
just one small thing, no one takes pleasure in the fact that almost all the Jews of the free world, did very little for the Jews in the holocaust, and that includes the Zionist leadership, if you find individuals that did do something, well, that only gives me comfort, that not “everyone” was passive.
This will do, as far as this particular point goes, I wish to not engage in the back and forth on this issue, of the Zionist action or lack thereof, as this article is not about that, Thank you.
Anan 2:23
We are going around in circles here, I already gave the reason why I think Bauer is wrong on the facts, no need to repeat.
“Also what exactly is your problem if Kastner did help Satmar Rebbe”
The point is not if I have a problem with it, or not, I’m just trying to set the historical record straight.
My Humble opinion
ReplyDelete"The point is not if I have a problem with it, or not, I’m just trying to set the historical record straight."
I see in you a very split personality, on one hand you are diligently very pro historical research with no fear for the consequences, but on the other hand you disregard legitimate researchers that don't serve your end result, with lame excuses
Anon 2:31
ReplyDelete“where is the antisemitism here”
I didn’t say it was anti-Semitism, all I tried to do, is point out the ugliness of generalizations, and stereotyping.
Anon 6:19
“I see in you a very split
personality”
You got to get your understanding of the “split personality” disorder revved up!
Did you never hear of two historians disagreeing on a topic? Bauer may be is a historian in your opinion, but different historians, have a different opinion then Bauer, so I read both sides, looked up the sources, and after a thorough evaluation, concluded as I did.
What in your book, does taking sides in an historical debate, have to do with split personality?
MHO:First of all,you obviously did do a lot of research and you deserve credit for that.I think you should try to do a revised edition with footnotes.That would be a major improvement.Secondly,it seems to me that much of your argument is based on the fact that it was P.Freudiger's assertion that there were 250 trucks waiting for the Germans in Switzerland that somehow restarted the negotiations after the Brand fiasco. Can you give me a citation for this Freudiger-Wisicleny meeting?Did Freudiger mention the 250 trucks at the Eichmann trial?
ReplyDeleteMy humble opinion
ReplyDelete"but different historians, have a different opinion then Bauer, so I read both sides, looked up the sources, and after a thorough evaluation, concluded as I did. "
can you provide me with sources of real historian, outside of Gelbman, Fulop,Friedman...
I need people that are in to holocaust studies for a living..
M H O
ReplyDelete"What in your book, does taking sides in an historical debate, have to do with split personality?"
it is nobodies book, you can take sides in a debate, but with devorim shel taam, not personal nonfouded mudslinging.
anon: "can you provide me with sources of real historian, outside of Gelbman, Fulop,Friedman...
ReplyDeleteI need people that are in to holocaust studies for a living.."
all 3 are real objective historian on this topic, (and they make a living, mind you)
הפך בּה דכולה בּה
Anon
ReplyDelete"all 3 are real objective historian on this topic, (and they make a living, mind you)"
leave this reply for the month of Adar..
I did in fact find the relevant part of the Eichmann trial where Freudiger mentions the 250 trucks. If this thread is still active, I'll comment after reading the transcript in detail.
ReplyDeleteHarry N:
ReplyDelete“you obviously did do a lot of research and you deserve credit for that”
Thank you for the kind words.
“I think you should try to do a revised edition with footnotes”
To be honest, I thought about putting in footnotes, but I was already mostly done writing, when the thought occurred to me, so I finished it as is.
But i will take your suggestion into consideration, Thank You.
“it seems to me that much of your argument is based on the fact that it was P.Freudiger's……..”
No, my main point was as I said, RMD put everything into motion for the rescue to be realized, from the connections, to giving the money for the Slovak rescue (which showed the Nazi leadership that business could be made), the falsifying letters from abroad to convince the Nazi leadership, that world Jewry is behind him Etc. Etc., after that, all that needed to be done is, keep the channels open, let it play out, and not do anything to derail it.
The tidbit about the 250 truck was just another point to say, even if it was Kastner’s train, Freudiger was still deeply involved, as well as RMD.
“Can you give me a citation for this Freudiger-Wisicleny meeting?Did Freudiger mention the 250 trucks at the Eichmann trial?”
The trial of Adolf Eichmann, session 52, part 5:
Not only did Freudiger talk to Wisliceny about the trucks, he spoke to Eichmann himself about the 250 trucks as a down payment.
Anon 12:40
“can you provide me with sources of real historian, outside of Gelbman, Fulop,Friedman”
How about David Kranzler, Abraham Fuchs, to name two? Plus a lot more!
BTW “Gelbman”, does do history for a living, he is the official biographer of Reb Yoel, the Satmar Rebbe, and has already authored 9 volumes, on the subject.
MHO
ReplyDelete"BTW “Gelbman”, does do history for a living, he is the official biographer of Reb Yoel, the Satmar Rebbe, and has already authored 9 volumes, on the subject."
he is considered a a liar by all parties in Satmar...
A Rav told me the Birech Moshe told him that his books are chock full of lies.The how should a outsider trust him.
Harry N :
ReplyDelete“I did in fact find the relevant part of the Eichmann trial where Freudiger mentions the 250 trucks. If this thread is still active, I'll comment after reading the transcript in detail.”
You can now listen to them on YouTube, if that’s more convenient for you!!
Anon 12:07
“he is considered a a liar…..”
The question was not if he was a liar or not, Anon 12:40 asserted that if someone does history for a leaving he is more trustworthy, so I merely pointed out that Gelbman does history for a living.
If Friedlander wrote Yerushalmi for a living, it is still not Yerushalmi...
ReplyDeleteAnon 2:46
ReplyDelete“If Friedlander wrote Yerushalmi for a living, it is still not Yerushalmi...”
By that same token if Bauer writes something and he calls it “holocaust history”, it’s still not necessarily real holocaust history!!
My Humble..
ReplyDeleteAs I asked you before, outside of Bauers kefira, did he ever falsify facts or misconstrued evidence. that you put it in the same league as a pathalogical foger as friedlander
Do you have evidence for your conclusion, unless your religious belief tells you that a apikores is not entitled to have a say in no field histry,Medicine, science..I will respect your belief if it is substantiated with halachic sources.
Is it permitted for the sick to eat on Yom Kippur based on a diagnose of a Doctor apikores?
Anon 1:51
ReplyDeleteWe are going around in circles, and it’s not even relative, I made the case why I think Bauer is wrong, and I based it on historical facts as I see them through the prism of several historians as mentioned before.
I didn’t put him in the same league as a Friedlander, Anon 2:46 said that Friedlander wrote a forgery even if he did it for a living, to counter what I said that Gelbman does history for a living, (although I didn’t say that this gives Gelbman credibility, it was only to counter what Anon 12:40 who said that doing something for a living gives it credibility).
I said before what Bauer said about RMD, and the bombings, this is a blatant lie, bases on nothing but bias and stereotyping of religious Jews, if that’s not enough, nothing will be.
I wish to end this here, since it’s not relevant to the main point of the article, Bauer may be the most righteous man alive, and can still be historically wrong, and by your arguments it doesn’t look as if you’re going to change your mind anyway, so let’s just leave it as is.
Anon 1:51
ReplyDeleteWe are going around in circles, and it’s not even relative, I made the case why I think Bauer is wrong, and I based it on historical facts as I see them through the prism of several historians as mentioned before.
I didn’t put him in the same league as a Friedlander, Anon 2:46 said that Friedlander wrote a forgery even if he did it for a living, to counter what I said that Gelbman does history for a living, (although I didn’t say that this gives Gelbman credibility, it was only to counter what Anon 12:40 who said that doing something for a living gives it credibility).
I said before what Bauer said about RMD, and the bombings, this is a blatant lie, bases on nothing but bias and stereotyping of religious Jews, if that’s not enough, nothing will be.
I wish to end this here, since it’s not relevant to the main point of the article, Bauer may be the most righteous man alive, and can still be historically wrong, and by your arguments it doesn’t look as if you’re going to change your mind anyway, so let’s just leave it as is.
myhumble...
ReplyDelete"I said before what Bauer said about RMD, and the bombings, this is a blatant lie, bases on nothing but bias and stereotyping of religious Jews, if that’s not enough, nothing will be."
Before you close shop on this issue,
Can you please provide us with Bauers facts and your rebuttal
Anon 4:57
ReplyDelete“Before you close shop on this issue, Can you please provide us with Bauers facts and your rebuttal”
This article is about the Kastner train, its history and background.
It’s not an article on what RMD did or didn’t do in the war, what RMD did is chronicled in several books, by respected historians, and Bauer disagrees with those historians.
This is a separate discussion then the one we are having here.
In order to discuss RMD and Bauer’s writings about him, requires a complete different lengthy article, maybe one day I will pen such an article, but this is not the place to debate it.
Hope you understand!
Harry N :
ReplyDelete“I did in fact find the relevant part of the Eichmann trial where Freudiger mentions the 250 trucks. If this thread is still active, I'll comment after reading the transcript in detail”
It looks like this thread is finished, but I would like to hear from you, so if you still have something to say, please put it here, and email me so I would know to look.
Thank You
please could u tell me where u got the above picture from? thank you!
ReplyDeleteYou want to know the true hero of the train escape? That would be my step Grandfather, Laslo. Why? Because he drove the actual train out of Hungary. Unfortunately he passed away last Saturday. A true hero. R.I.P.
ReplyDeleteיצחק
ReplyDeleteאז איר ווילט וויסן וואס איז טאקע געשען ליינט'ס דאס
http://netureikartaru.com/Files/perfidy.pdf
MHO... Did kastner sell his soul to the devil?
ReplyDeleteHe knew eichmans plans for hungarian jews and didn't tell... Who knows how many could have escaped through bribary/fleeing/etc...this is what the judge said at the trail...
A
Rav yisroel yakov fisher once said at a 21 kislev event that he is also a מחתן sincce the dream came to his uncle.
ReplyDelete2) the academic biography is already written ( i've read much of it) by
מנחם קרן-קרץ.
Pending the weight of evidence for the dream, the account of the SR himself denying it should perhaps be dismissed. The dream is a huge feather in the SR's cap. In his humility he chose to deny it.
ReplyDeleteThere's the story, I'll have to wing the details, from biographies of ROY. When Rav Ovadia was Menachem Rav Ben Tzion's family, they asked him, is it true that you would review 40 daf with our father every day when you were Chavrusos? RO said, ""ONE" daf". When he left his escort asked him, but I know it was 40? RO told him, everyone else also needs to know?