This magazine clip was sent to us by a relative of Reb Berel Shvartzman. I was quite surprised to see this appear in the בקהילה, which has a Chabadnik editor-in-chief, Binyomin Lipkin. It would not bother anyone if they say that he came from a Chassidic home but took another path after seeing the great ameilus baTorah in Chevron/Lakewood, but why would you deny his background and heritage? Especially after telling us that he was born in Nevel, a Lubavitcher town like no other! This is being an Umfarginer to the 10th power!
I heard fron a ish musmach that he used to see him in Sefrdishe Shull in BP davening in a alte rebbe sidur,
ReplyDeleteMaybe he came to his Fil Reb Aron Kotler , who lived around the Sefardishe Shul and also davened there often.
BTW, the Stipler also davened in the AR nusach, I guess he decided if I have to daven sefard like my parents let it be in the right nusach that a Odem Godul authored
I believe Binyomin Lipkin wrote the Jimmy book. I guess this calls the entire book into question...
ReplyDeletewas his childhood and upbringing at all chasidish?
ReplyDeleteThe steipler davened nusach ari because that is the minhag in hornesteiple!
ReplyDeleteDid they wear zahdineh yeebetzehs in Nevel?
ReplyDeleteI saw Rav Schwartzman z"l on a Shabbos and it was a standard issue no split in the back bekisha, not what Lubavitcher Chasidim wear. So perhaps this is not historical revisionism after all.
What does make the story a bit fishy is tha if he is wearing a gartel alts vuss shteit in shilkhin oorikh why did he do so on Shabbos only?
"Blogger The Bray of Fundie said...
ReplyDeleteDid they wear zahdineh yeebetzehs in Nevel?
I saw Rav Schwartzman z"l on a Shabbos and it was a standard issue no split in the back bekisha, not what Lubavitcher Chasidim wear. So perhaps this is not historical revisionism after all.
What does make the story a bit fishy is tha if he is wearing a gartel alts vuss shteit in shilkhin oorikh why did he do so on Shabbos only?
Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:27:00 PM"
The split in the back was a more modern levush, and was adopted by the Rebbe, and therefore by the Lubavitcher chassidim.
The Frierdiker Rebbe wore the typical chassidishe levush which did not include a slit in the back.
OK...thanks for the clarification. IOW you're tayneing that in Nevel they did indeed wear zahdineh yeebetzehs.
ReplyDeletei was under the impression that the split in back was a khalukeh d'rabonon and that in Poland Chasidisha Rabbonim wore zahdineh frocks.
The Ruv of the shteebel that I grew up in, a yoishev in Belz, wore such a garment on Shabbos.
anon
ReplyDelete"The steipler davened nusach ari because that is the minhag in hornesteiple!"
it not the Minhag in hornistiple to daven the Alte rebbes Nusach,
Anon
ReplyDelete"The split in the back was a more modern levush, and was adopted by the Rebbe, and therefore by the Lubavitcher chassidim"
are you sure that the Rebbe started the Sirtuk
it news for me
hirshel can you verify it?
hornisteipel did not daven alter rebbe nusach. Look in pele yoetz in the michtavim in the back where is son asked if he should use siddur harav and he said no
ReplyDeletecan we please have a virified twersky of hornesteiple confirm or deny the nusach hatefila that the rebbe davens, please.
ReplyDeleteThe Frierdiker Rebbe wore the typical chassidishe levush which did not include a slit in the back.
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ. If anything many of the other Ukrainian Chassidim, as well as the Russian/Lithuanian ones,and Rebbes wore the slit in the back but changed later, whether in America or in Israel, to fit in better.
the FR wore the Sirtuk/Surdut with the slit, AFAIK. You can see the 2 buttons in the front in the pictures
I learned in Bais Hatalmud and I was under the impression that R'Berel was not from a chasidic backround.In the yeshiva they davened nusach ashkenaz, though almost all the non chasidic yeshivas in Israel do it to, so maybe that proves nothing.Additionally, I knew R'Berel youngest son,not R'Aharons eynikel, and he had no chasidic leanings.R'Berel spoke a Litvishe sounding Yiddish, not like what Russian Lubavitchers speak.
ReplyDeleteAs I see it,R'Berels father was apparently non chasidic, though his mother was from a Chabad backround
The Honest truth is that it makes very little difference,R'Berel was his own,self made man,something those who knew him will be able to understand.So I would take it that the reason quoted in the newspaper is accurate.
Whether he desscended from Lubavitcher chasidim or went to a farbrengen is all trivial. His real kesher with Chabad was his tremendous knowledge of sifrei Chabad.As it says in Tanya that "da'as" means "kesher". Likewise his brilliant son R' Zevulun is very knowledgeable in sifrei Chabad although he has the same complaints against contemporary Lubavitch as all misnagdim.
ReplyDeletethe FR wore the Sirtuk/Surdut with the slit, AFAIK. You can see the 2 buttons in the front in the picture.
ReplyDeletethe front is not a raya, the pailishe, ie ger, wore a yibitze with 2 buttons in front, no slit in the back
whatever it is the Rebbe was no fashion designer and he did not wake up with a new designed sirtuk
ReplyDeleteKovner
ReplyDeleteDoes schwartzman quote the Alter Rebbe in 1 of his seforim?
Anonymous 9:31 said...
ReplyDelete"whatever it is the Rebbe was no fashion designer and he did not wake up with a new designed sirtuk"
what about the different hats he was wearing ?
R' Schwartzman wrote chidushim on the whole Torah! So far only his chidushim on some gemorrahs have been printed.If he does quote the Alter Rebbe it would be in his chiddushim on nistar.
ReplyDeleteNotes on the Frierdiker Rebbe's Levush as I have observed after studying every photo I could find.
ReplyDeleteThe FR wore the following:
A brim up hat for ordinary days that usually appears to be velvet (varying in styles).
A "shtraimel" for Shabbos and special occasions similar to the kolpik now worn by some rebbes for (non-Shabbos and Yom Tov) special occasions, and worn by some unmarried children and grandchilden of rebbes on Shabbos.
A yarmulke typical of today's style (not the old fashioned kind).
Peyos tucked up under the yarmulke, typical of the chassidim of Russia and Poland then and typical of Gerrer Chassidim in America today.
An untrimmed reddish (not black) beard, that appears to have been somewhat tucked in in the earlier years.
A black neck tie.
Tzitzis on top of the shirt.
A vest on top of the Tzitzis.
A golden or silver chain on the vest, presumably holding a pocket watch.
A long black silky bekitche/kapote/sirtuk. At different times the style of this garment was different, but none of them appear like the kapote/sirtuk common in Lubavitch today. There are no photos with a view of the back and it's hard to tell if there was a slit or not from the photos, but they do not appear to be in the style of the ones that have slits. Also they are longer than the typical length of the ones with slits. This garment was frequently worn unbuttoned.
A coat: Sometimes a Ruzhvolke with a velvet collar (similar to the ones worn by many Rebbes today), sometimes regular coats, and in one poor-quality photo it appears he is wearing the fur-trimmed Rebbishe coat that is referred to as a Peltz or a Tilip. (I've seen recent photos of a Lubavitcher choson at his chuppa wearing the FR's Ruzhvolke with the velvet collar.)
Long pants (as opposed to knickers).
Dark socks (as opposed to white ones).
Shoes that appear to be laced.
A silver handled cane (typical of many rebbes today).
In one photo the FR is wearing black gloves that appear to be leather.
In several photos the FR wore round glasses.
If I have made any mistakes I ask mechilla from the Frierdiker Rebbe, N"A.
Hirshel,
ReplyDeleteThe 2 buttons in the front are not proof of the slit in the back.
In fact in the early years, the Rebbe's Kapoto had 3 buttons in the front as one can see in many pictures in books such as Mikadesh Yisroel, Yemei Bereishis, etc. The Rebbe's kapoto also had a double silk collar, which is not done or found today. Apparently the levush was not heavily emphasized and there were all different kinds of styles.
Shmuel- Jimmy book is by Yossie Elituv from Hebrew Mishpacha.
ReplyDeleteTwerski Hornsteipel chassidus has a great blog, damesek.blogspot.com with all this info
As a Twerski from Hornisteiple, here goes.
ReplyDeleteThe Zaide Reb Mottele from Hornisteiple wrote in a letter to his son, Reb Leibele that the chassidus in the Alter Rebbe's siddur is wonderful, but not to follow the nusach. He specified to use the nusach of Siddur Radvil or Siddur Nehora. This siddur today is the one is known as the Berdichever Siddur (by being published there) or Tefilo Yeshoro. It should be noted that this publication is full of mistakes in nusach, as is obvious from comparing to the actual Siddur Radvil. There are newer prints that seem to be improvements, though I still find errors.
It seems that there was a degree of rigidity about nusach in Hornisteiple, but that it involved following a nusach of the Ari. Some may protest this, but the nusach of Chabad (as per the Alter Rebbe) is NOT nusach Ari. It is a composite nusach which the Alter Rebbe built based on as many as 60 recognized nuschaos. There is a good reason why the identity of the nusach in the Chabad siddur is "al pi nusach Ari", because it is not a pure nusach from the Ari.
It is noted that there are many siddurim from various talmidim of the Ari Zal and from their talmidim. The nuschaos have many similarities, but there are also stark differences. It is probably futile to expect to understand why each talmid had a different mesora from the Ari. The preoccupation with davening a nusach from the Ari was recognition of the need to build a nusach based on kavanos and halacha, in contrast to some nuschaos that were emerging at the time in which there were hidden references to Shabtai Tzvi, as well as maskilim who corrupted nusach. (Notably Yitzchok Stanov who was a known fraud even among maskilim. He was not known as such by many until later, and R' Volf Heidenheim, on whom much of Ashkenazic siddur is based, incorporated many of these fraudulent changes in his earlier printings of his siddur.)
I do not know what nusach the Steipler davened. I have personal familiarity with his dveikus in chassidus of Hornisteiple, and nothing surprises me.
To Anon: 12:03
ReplyDeleteIt was co-authored by Binyomin Lipkin from BaKehilah together with Yossi Alituv from Mishpacha.
"I do not know what nusach the Steipler davened. I have personal familiarity with his dveikus in chassidus of Hornisteiple, and nothing surprises me."
ReplyDeleteI never saw the Stipler davening in that nusach, but his son Reb Chaim said so, and I saw it printed in a sefer by the family
U really believe the Stipler had Devikus in Chasidus of Hornistiple?
How, by keeping a little Al Titosh, not changing Minhogim from his father?
Btw, is their a Hornistiple way of chassidus?
Twersky from Hornistiple
ReplyDelete"but the nusach of Chabad (as per the Alter Rebbe) is NOT nusach Ari. It is a composite nusach which the Alter Rebbe built based on as many as 60 recognized nuschaos. There is a good reason why the identity of the nusach in the Chabad siddur is "al pi nusach Ari", because it is not a pure "
Is the Bardichever nussach more closer to the Ari, then the Alter Rebbe's nussach?
Did u ever read the Chamishe Mamores of the Munkacher?
Why are u coming up with a explanation on your Grandfathers not using the AR sidder, why is it not simple he was 80% Chernobyl and he wanted to stick to their tradition even if the Alter Rebbe would be 100% identical with the nusach Ari
Responding to the comment about the Steipler having dveikus in chassidus of Hornisteiple - He wrote it numerous times, referred to Reb Leibele as "der Rebbe", referred to The Milwaukee Rebbe (Reb Leibele's son)as "der Rebbe", seeking to visit him first. He spoke to me about it personally in תשל"ד and תשל"ה. I was not present to observe any specific minhagim, but he described one of them to me in detail which he had seen by Reb Mottele (from about age 5), and he was adamant that the family should know about it to follow it as well.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the the nusach of the Alter Rebbe being "al pi nusach Ari", that was clear by his authorship. The fact is that there were numerous mesoros from the Ari, and he had his cheshbonos, none of which I claim to have capacity to grasp, for why he established what he did.
As for the Berdichever Siddur, it was accepted as reliable by one of the talmidei haBesh"t. There were others with nuschaos that had the backing of other talmidei haBesh"t. The differences are not major, but nonetheless reflect the lack of precision of these mesoros or, more likely, the pattern of multiple mesoros given to different talmidim. I do not proclaim the Berdichever Siddur as having any better yichus than the siddur of the Alter Rebbe. I have more reason to accept the current Chabad siddur as representing the nusach of the Alter Rebbe as more accurate than the previous printing of the Berdichever Siddur which I know to have numerous mistakes.
Reb Mottele followed much of nusach Chernobil, but not all. It was common for rebbes to adopt various additions and modifications to their derech, perhaps from a maternal zaide, perhaps from a father-in-law, perhaps from one of their own rebbeim. This pattern is found less often in the dynasty of Chabad, and this is noted for the maaloh it represents.
Twerski From Hornisteiple
ReplyDelete"but he described one of them to me in detail which he had seen by Reb Mottele (from about age 5), and he was adamant that the family should know about it to follow it as well."
I saw all his writings on that matter, including that he got Yiras shomaim from the Rebbes Seforim, but the fact is that in his lifetime he wrote many seforim in Mussar besides the the Kehilas Yakov on Shas, and he never mentioned a Chassidc sefer or Chassidic vort,
I don't remember that in Orches Rebinie he should ever mention the Hornistipler.
I a no psychologist (its a trade in your family not in mines)but I think that seeing your family he got a nostalgia attack and there it ended.
Twersky
ReplyDelete"This pattern is found less often in the dynasty of Chabad, and this is noted for the maaloh it represents."
I think that the Niezhner family got diluted into Chernobel, and this is what the Tzemach Tzedek tried to stop.
"As for the Berdichever Siddur, it was accepted as reliable by one of the talmidei haBesh"t."
ReplyDeletein the Haskomas for the Berdichever sidur the Rebbes are confirming the Nussach..???
I think not..
if anyone here know what the job desription of a rebbe is, go to hornesteiple - you will see a real rebbe, milwakke or flatbush, take your pick.
ReplyDeleteBoston of har nof published a beatiful nehora siddur...sanz also uses this nusach...
ReplyDeletethere is a fellow in jerusalem who calls himself the hornstipler rebbi. He hates breslov.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the surprise about "revisionism" when the whole frum world practices it all the time, no exceptions! This must be an Eastern European vestige like when monarchs would revise the histories of their rival predecessors!
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, some recent articles about Rav Dov Schwartzman (RDS) have been open and brave enough to mention that at one time he was a "maggid shiur" in the Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin before he went on to found the Yeshiva of Philadelphia with Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (RSK).
But when was the last time histories of either the Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin or the Yeshiva of Philadelphia devoted any time to admitting that RDS was in their midst at all be it in dinner journals, meetings or letting bochurim, or anyone, know something about how the yeshivas they are learning in grew and became what they were? Almost zilch. And yeshivas have the perfect excuse naturally, that it's "bitul Toirah" to talk about silly "histories" that they belittle.
But that's only when it suits them, otherwise the official "publishing houses" of all the frum groups and sects have field days producing HAGIOGRAPHY (if anyone doesn't know what that means, look it up) instead of reliable, rational, objective, truthful records and accounts of themselves.
In the Chaim Berlin Yeshiva world RDS does not even exist because he dared to throw out Rav Yitzchok Hutner (RYH) from the yeshiva they built together in Israel. And in all probability in the Philadelphia Yeshiva world RDS is radioactive and mention must be avoided because RDS had the chutzpa to divorce the daughter of none other than Rav Aron Kotler (RAK), and then RDS added insult to injury by marrying another choshuve yiddishe tochter and raising a family with her too, so why would RSK want to make his life impossible since he is after all dependent on RAK's Lakewood Yeshiva to take all the talmidim he feeds them as well not stop the ones they send him?
So everyone is out for their own skins and the victim, as usual is the emes!
I am aware that the Steipler wrote his sefer Chaye Olam (two sections), not lengthy at all, and this is the only mussar sefer I noticed. He relates there a lengthy story about the grandchildren of Reb Pinchos of Koritz (talmid haBesh"t) who built the Slavita press. Are there other sifrei mussar from the Steipler? The Orchos Rabeinu was not written by the Steipler.
ReplyDeleteThe haskomos in the Berdichever Siddur actually make no reference to the nusach, only to the Keser Nehora peirush. My source for the statement on nusach is elsewhere.
Boston of Har Nof reprinted the siddur with variations to include minhagim and nuschaos of Boston. The previous rebbes in Boston had davened from the Berdichever Siddur, but they had their own nuances which were finally merged into their siddur. It was not uncommon for tzaddikim to use a particular siddur and incorporate their own variations into it. Not all published siddurim of their own.
Tzanz did not follow the nusach of the Berdichever Siddur. I bet there were commonalities, and some Tzanzer eineklach might have had that siddur in front of them, but they did not follow that nusach.
The "fellow in Jerusalem" is R' Sholom Friedman, a son-in-law of R' Shloime Twerski ZT"L from Denver. He calls himself Hornisteipler Rebbe, has a Beis Hamedrash in Sanhedria, and is quite a talmid chochom. I have no clue what his feelings are about Breslov. This subject never came up in conversation.
P.S. (other subject) - I believe that RDS founded yeshiva of Philadelphia with Reb Elya Svei, not Reb Shmuel. That's my recollection. If someone knows history better, I can concede.
Is this a lion of the midwest? Will you be at the belz progeny party this weekend in the town of R Aron?
ReplyDeletePhiladelphia was founded by R Dov and R Shmuel, R Elya came later.
When will you reprint pele yoetz? The chibur ltahara is beautiful!
ReplyDeleteR Freidman reprinted shoshanas h'amokim rather nicely..
Twersky from Hornistiple
ReplyDelete"He relates there a lengthy story about the grandchildren of Reb Pinchos of Koritz (talmid haBesh"t) who built the Slavita press"
you prove my point that he only quotes some story of a family who had a printing business in Ukraine who were by accident rebishe kinder and that's it
I know that Orchas Rebinie was not written by him, but it is a journal of a person that shadowed him 24/7 and no real Chasidic mention,
Does that not prove my point that he was no chosid what so ever?
Trust me the holy Cherkaser and his grand son the Hornistipler don't need the haskama of Bnie Berak Nitnagdim, but please don't try to confuse some nostalgia in a full fledge chosid.
Twerski from Hornisteiple said...
ReplyDelete"Tzanz did not follow the nusach of the Berdichever Siddur. "
According to the Klausenburger and I think Reb Refoel also writes it, the Tzanser Ruv had particular no Nussach that he always davened,he switched around Minhogim and Nuschoas.
Twerski from Hornisteiple said
ReplyDelete"The previous rebbes in Boston had davened from the Berdichever Siddur,"
I never heard of previous Rebbes of Boston
The bostonor "dynasty" was created by r pd horowitz, a gribine yerishaymer, rebbishe einikle who needed parnusa..
ReplyDeleteHe was succeeded by his sons, r moshe and r levyitzchok, they were succeeded by rebbes un a shir...
r moshe reich published a sanz sidder 2 years ago. In the introducion he shows berdithov is the sanz nusach .i personaly saw the rebbi shlita from natanya dovin from a berditchov sidder.
ReplyDeleteTzanz of Natanya is Klausenberg. They are Tzanzer eineklach, and use the name Tzanz. In my mind, I label that branch as Klausenberg, and when there is reference to Tzanzer nusach, I think of other branches of Tzanz, notably Bobov, where R' Shloime (first) was among the closest to his zaide, the Divrei Chaim, and was considered the most reliable in recognizing the true nusach of the zaide. It is recognized, and chronicled by many, that the Divrei Chaim often was "inconsistent" in minhagim and nusach, and that there were reasons he did not always do things exactly as other times. It required a maven of great caliber to glean from what was observed the true basic nusach. It is recognized by other branches of Tzanz that Reb Shloimele accomplished this.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone chose to daven from a Berdichever siddur, that is more recent. I had direct testimony that the previous Klausenberger Rebbe from Union City/Natanya davened from a simple siddur (published by Hebrew Publishing Company).
I will repeat my personal connection with the Steipler, when he referred to Hornisteiple many times with extreme kavod, noting that Reb Mottele was "der rebbe", and the same was stated about Reb Leibele, and the Milwaukee Rebbe. This is attested to in numerous letters, only some of which were printed. In letters to Reb Shea, son of Milwaukee Rebbe, he nearly always adds a post script on the bottom which translates to "Regards to your father the Rebbe shlit'a".
It is clear that he did not conduct himself as a chossid of a particular rebbe, in the social sense we have come to recognize. But his alleigance to Hornisteiple was more than present.
There is a sefer that relates that the Steipler would travel by taxi every Elul to Reb Nochum Twerski, son of Reb Leibele, who lived in Tel Aviv, with a kvittel. He reportedly stated that he needed to bring a kvittel to a scion of Hornisteiple before Rosh Hashana. As most of the family, I was not surprised to learn this about the Steipler, though it was not known to us.
As for reprinting sforim from Hornisteiple, the Emek Hachochma was also reprinted by R' Friedman, and it appears to be a nice job. The Peleh Yoetz is underway, and some of us have an early draft of the new printing. It is quite a large sefer (and will be multi-volume), now that it is prepared with hagahos and mar'eh mekomos. I have no clue how much longer it will take to get it in print and available to the public. The Emek She'aloh is also being redone with liberal references, and will become quite a large, multi-volume sefer.
Anyone ever heard of such fanatical shemiras enayim as was seen by the steipler anywhere lese but by chasidim!?
ReplyDeletewhat was so fanatical about his shmiras eynayim?
ReplyDeleteTwersky...
ReplyDelete"Tzanz of Natanya is Klausenberg. They are Tzanzer eineklach, and use the name Tzanz. In my mind, I label that branch as Klausenberg, "
to say that Bobover Rebbe is the real Sanz and not the Klausenburger is the biggest embarrassment for your holy Sanzer Ziede
I am no Klausenburger chosid and I also realize that your Bobover Uncle was a fiener yid and saved some Galicianer yiden for yiddishkiet and chassidiskiet. The Klaunburger Ruv can use the name Sanz even if he would be no Einikel of the divrie chaim, (as u probably know the teshuva in Divrie Chaim that Rebishe Einiklech don't like)
Anon
ReplyDelete"Anyone ever heard of such fanatical shemiras enayim as was seen by the steipler anywhere lese but by chasidim!?"
the Biyaler Rebbe or Reb Avrohom Yitzchak Cohen were not as stringent as him?
Twerski....
ReplyDelete"But his alleigance to Hornisteiple was more than present."
since you cherish this so much, I will let you keep your wishfull thinking
Twerski.....
ReplyDelete". It is recognized by other branches of Tzanz that Reb Shloimele accomplished this."
Oi Vey Mir....
what did the old Zhmigeder Rebbe think of that?
Did he look on your Bobover uncle as the Bar Samche?
Twerski....
ReplyDelete"It is clear that he did not conduct himself as a chossid of a particular rebbe, in the social sense we have come to recognize. But his alleigance to Hornisteiple was more than present.
There is a sefer that relates that the Steipler would travel by taxi every Elul to Reb Nochum Twerski, son of Reb Leibele, who lived in Tel Aviv, with a kvittel. He reportedly stated that he needed to bring a kvittel to a scion of Hornisteiple before Rosh Hashana. As most of the family, I was not surprised to learn this about the Steipler, though it was not known to us."
I don't know if you realize that the 2 paragraphs are contradicting.He had to give a Kvittel to Hornstipler einikel,but no chosid of a particular Rebbe
Twerski..
ReplyDeleteI saw this Shabos that the Barnever Ruv was in Sanz and some Eebishe Einikel was very grotesque with his rebishe einikelisim..
The Sanzer Ruv told him ,
Only the days before Matan Torah are called called Yom Hameychos, after Matan Torah, the only Yachsen is, who learns and davens and is a somebody on his own...
The steipler wouldn't even allow kvitlach written by women, let alone them come in for counsel or brocha..
ReplyDeleteI noticed that this R Friedman from yerushlayim calls himself hornesteiple, but isn't referred to as such, yet there is a shul in a basement called emek tefila that doesn't even say keitz yet has been legitimized by the hornesteipler geza...
Or so it seems.
The steipler wouldn't even allow kvitlach written by women, let alone them come in for counsel or brocha..
ReplyDeleteI noticed that this R Friedman from yerushlayim calls himself hornesteiple, but isn't referred to as such, yet there is a shul in a basement called emek tefila that doesn't even say keitz yet has been legitimized by the hornesteipler geza...
Or so it seems.
Twerskie
ReplyDelete"notably Bobov, where R' Shloime (first) was among the closest to his zaide, the Divrei Chaim,"
As close as the Bierech Moshe of Siget/Satmar
U are simply a imfarginer that r shloime the 1st was close w the divrei chaim.... Even the shiniver acknowledged it. With his famous r"t
ReplyDeleteב'א א'חיך ב'מירמה ו'לקח ב'רכותיך
ReplyDeletebasement shule...rav alyashuv ,rav asher wiess and the amshinover rebbi are very against this practice...
ReplyDeletethe sanzer rebbi of natanya zaidie was 20 years by the דברי חיים . two big volumes of storys customc etc were printed by r b auerbach of natanta.
צאנז=נחמן=148
The reference to R' Shloimele of Bobov regarding Tzanz nusach was to the first Reb Shloimele. I'm also sorry you interpreted my words suggesting that the name Tzanz belonged to anyone. I haven't any issue with the Klausenberg family using the name, or anyone else for that matter. If everyone would use it, it might become confusing, but I don't have an opinion about a city name being restricted to anyone.
ReplyDeleteThe Steipler may have given that kvittel once a year to R' Nochum, but this "chossid" behavior was not obvious to the rest of the community where he lived. This is clear in the several biographies making little to no mention of this.
If anyone read into my earlier comments any form of negativity, please reread and re-interpret. There was nothing intended.
tziki kedera said...
ReplyDeletebasement shule...rav alyashuv ,rav asher wiess and the amshinover rebbi are very against this practice..
Whatchu talkin about!?
Tziki, the reference was to R Skulas shul in toronto being called hornesteiple
ReplyDeleteBasement shul
R Twerski, why do you demean yourself and your forbears by taking part in the mudslinging fest here?!
ReplyDeleteTziki
ReplyDelete"the sanzer rebbi of natanya zaidie was 20 years by the דברי חיים . two big volumes of storys customc etc were printed by r b auerbach of natanta."
And how many years was Reb Shloma Bobover the first, in Sanz?
Rabbi Shlomo Halberstam (1847-1905) was a Hasidic Rebbe, founder of the Hasidic dynasty of Bobov. He was the son of Rabbi Myer Noson Halberstam (1827-1855). Rabbi Shlomo was a grandson of the Divrei Chaim of Sanz (1793-1876), a Hasidic sage of the 19th century whose influence established the groundwork for many other Galician Hasidic movements.
ReplyDeleteSolomon Halberstam became an orphan at age eight, and lived with his grandfather, the Divrei Chaim, for most of his early life. He married the daughter of Rabbi Yehoshua of Kaminka. In later life he re-married; his second wife was the daughter of Rabbi Menashe of Drohobycz. His mentors in chasidut were his two grandfathers, the Divrei Chaim of Sanz and Rabbi Eliezer of Dzikov.
He became the rabbi of Bukowsko in 1864, Oświęcim in 1879, Vishnitsa in 1880, where he set up a large yeshiva in 1881 and began to serve as a rebbe (Admor) there. He left Vishnitsa and re-established his Yeshiva in Bobov where he was appointed rabbi in 1892
A couple of points:
ReplyDelete1) The letter from Reb Motele printed in the back of Pele Yoetz regarding nusach was to his youngest son, Reb Burich Duvid'l, not to Reb Leibele as was mentioned originally.
2) No one would claim that the Steipler was a "chosid" in the chassidishe sense. On the other hand, it would be unfair to label him a straight "litvak" either. His son Rav Chaim writes that his father would learn "harbeh sifrei chassidus" in the Sukkahh. In Chayei Olam, the Steipler writes a very chassidish idea regarding tefila in the name of "seforim hakedoshim" or "sifrei yira" (I don't recall offhand which), and while every other possible thing written there was given a source in the footnotes in the new print, this "chasidishe" idea has no footnote. There are other such examples. As Tzig posted about the R' Shvartzman, the revisionism prevalent among litvishe chroniclers when it comes to "protecting" "their" gedolim is well-known.
Again, Twerski never said the Steipler was a chasid. BUT, if you read the letters he wrote about it, it is hard not to see how he felt about Hornosteipel. Nostalgia, at the very least, and it appears to have been more than that. Did he take on chassidus as a davar bifnei atzmo the way we do today? No. Torah and avodah reigned premier - nothing else. But he felt very close to Hornosteipel nonetheless.
3) The Rebbe, shlit"a, in Milwaukee, Rav Michel Twerski, related how the Steipler would not allow him to leave until "the Rebbe" gave him a berachah. It was on that occasion that the Steipler said, "Ven Mashiach vet kummen Hornosteipel vet zein a malchis, veil siz takken gevein a malchis."
4) I have heard from a number of eineklach that the Steipler was adamant that the seforim and kesavim of Hornosteiple be reprinted and that the Chassidus be rebuilt. When the Milwaukee chevra did not show such interest, he turned to Reb Baruch Shimon in Tchebin (also an einekel, i think) that he should rebuild.
5) The Steipler also made a space between in the retzuos when he wrapped the shel yad, like chernobyl and chabad.
Infer what you will. Its all good!
Damesek
ReplyDelete" His son Rav Chaim writes that his father would learn "harbeh sifrei chassidus" in the Sukkahh. "
I like that,
where is it printed?
Damesek
ReplyDelete"In Chayei Olam, the Steipler writes a very chassidish idea regarding tefila in the name of "seforim hakedoshim" or "sifrei yira" (I don't recall offhand which),"
Are u definite that it a original Chasidic torah, it can not be found in some sefer derush.
what is the vort?
Damesek
ReplyDelete"Ven Mashiach vet kummen Hornosteipel vet zein a malchis, veil siz takken gevein a malchis."
I am not a Stipler chosid(if u can call it that way), and no eb Milwaukee Chosid.
But why only after Moshiach?
is it to deep for our genaration?
Anon 12:01
ReplyDeleteI know it sounds fishy that I don't have all the mekoros lined up. I saw it in one of the myriad of seforim they print with a Q & A with Reb Chaim. If I come across it again, I'll post it here, bl"n.
Anon 12:03
As above, I saw it quickly when I opened the sefer in beis medrash. If I cross paths with the new print of Chayei Olam again, I'll post it here.
Anon 12:04
No idea why he said what he said and I was not privy to the conversation. It is interesting though.
the steipler gave as derech eretz to the youngest hornesteipler einiklach as he gave to gedolei harabonim
ReplyDelete