And we always believed that the Degel HaTorah people didn't like Mr. Shamir and favored Shimon Peres and his liberal stance on peace - and that "no land for peace" was an exclusively Lubavitcher opinion. But now, upon the passing of PM Yitzchak Shamir, we're hearing all kinds of nice things that were said about him by people that we thought were not on the same page politically with him. [From the Chabad sites you'd think that one of the ziknei haChassidim passed on, but that's become normal already, although nobody knows when and how that happened...] One of those people is the late Ponovizher Rosh Yeshiva, who was quoted by former Interior Minister Yitzchak Peretz as saying that he has ".דעת זקנים" Is it the Daas of זקני תלמידי חכמים or זקני עם הארץ? It seems to be a good thing from the article, judging from the fact that they say that he had הערכה towards him, meaning that it's a good thing. the Although there's no direct mention of his admiration of Shamir because of his stance on the peace negotiations in this article, there IS another one that makes mention of it and of the fact that the idea that the PR"Y was for giving land in return for peace is a MYTH. Here's that article.
Of course there are many that disagree, some of them Lubavitchers, and who remember many of the statements he made in regards to the Golan Heights, like "We've lived without the Golan for two thousand years, and we can go another 2,000 years without it," meaning if it's handed over to Syria וועט די וועלט ניט אונטערגיין. In short, a very Baalebatishe look at politics, clearly out of his league. Like most Rosheshives. But I believe that his opinion on this issue especially changed very often, that it was a very flexible opinion, based on the time and place, and based on the needs of the frum Jews at that time, so maybe both opinions are right... The same goes for others like Rav Ovadia. I mean no harm, it's just that some Rebbes have some sort of S'yata D'Shmaya that today's Rosheshives and Rabbonim don't have. Some sort of BaalShem'ske zechus that guides them to make the right decisions... But even that doesn't ALWAYS work...
That's my Daas Baalebatim.
Giving the Sinai back to Egypt saved us many lives and wars.Giving the Golan back for peace would be the same.
ReplyDelete" In short, a very Baalebatishe look at politics, clearly out of his league"
I"m not sure what you mean when you say it was clearly out of his league?Why is it "clear".Just because someone disagrees with your rebbe it does not make it "clearly" out of their league.
Btw, most rabbonim agree that one may return land for peace
"one may give land back for peace"
ReplyDeletehow much land for how peace? when do we start counting the bodies that pile up because of the "peace?"
and where do these Rabbonim take this opinion from?
It was a very pragmatic view of how to save more jewish lives. Sof passuk. That was his only consideration.
ReplyDelete"how much land for how peace? when do we start counting the bodies that pile up because of the "peace?""
ReplyDeleteThe Yom Kippur war per wikipedia cost
"Israel suffered between 2,521[26][20][2] and 2,800 killed in action.[19] An additional 7,250[292] to 8,800[19] soldiers were wounded. Some 293 Israelis were captured.[293] Approximately 400 Israeli tanks were destroyed. Another 600 were disabled but returned to service after repairs.[28] "
Most Israeli generals felt that peace with the giving back of land was the way to go.Most rabbunim agree.Of course the Rebbe had the right to disagree,but you should know that almost everyone disagreed.
I think that history has shown that no nation that lost land in war accepted the loss if they could.In the case where Israel is the lone lamb surrounded by many wolves there would be little chance that Egypt not try and start another war to try and get the Sinai back.
Of course with the change of regimes in Egypt anything can happen, but at least we've had a "cold" peace for 35 years.
I don't want to get into a whole other argument, if people who don't serve in the Army have the right to say "mevines"
Tzig: "And we always believed that the Degel HaTorah people didn't like Mr. Shamir and favored Shimon Peres"
ReplyDeleteס'האט אמאל גיפעגט אַ קינד טאטע וואס איז דאס דצ"ך עד"ש בּאח"ב?
האט ער גיענטפערט דאס זענ'ן די נעמען פון גרויסע מלאכים, האט דאס
קינד גיפרעגט ווידער, אין וועלעכער איז גרעסער! האט דער פאטער גיענטפערט צווישׂ'ן אַזאלעכע גרויסע מלאכים ווער קאן זיך אריינמשׁן!. והמב"י
shamir-peres-or the lubab Shazar?
who knows?
Chaim
ReplyDeleteFYI,
by yom kippur war the egyptian were still offical fighting Israel...
so what are you proving here with your quote?
Tomashover,
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what you are asking..
I was quoting wikipedia about the number of israeli casaulties during the yom kippur war and inferring that since thank God we haven't had a war with them since than many jewish lives have bee saved
Why, when someone else says these things, they are driving a hate - filled agenda, and when you say it it is hiskashrus or whatever other poppycock name you give your convenient belief system?
ReplyDeleteIf anyone can prove their Rebbe's greatness on an absolute scale, not 'he never took a vacation' (when the Rasha"b took a vacation the system has to be spun a different way), just an absolute objective study of his ge'onus in Nigleh, koach in learning, and connection to previous generations of Talmidei Chachomim, then they have a right to disparage those less than their own. Until then, your connection to your Rebbe is your private problem, not a belief or even opinion, just a scratch for your own itch.
Yankel,
ReplyDeleteVery well put.
Of course you"ll never get a Lubavitcher to be objective, but I am much more worried that you"ll almost never get a Lubavitcher admitting that when it comes to the rebbe and chabad that they are NOT objective.That is already a very big chisaron.
Regarding the Rebbe never taking a vacation:I actually "chap hispaayles" from it, especially in light of the trips of the Rashab and Rayatz, and of other rebbes.
It is great that he never took a vacation, but that is not an objective measure of Gadlus. After we know he is a Gadol we can be impressed with that. It also does not say that he was a bigger Gadol than someone who did take vacations.
ReplyDeleteBTW, when did Rav Shach take a vacation?