Tuesday, June 19, 2007
Last night in Lakewood
I'm no Talmid Chochom, nor do I claim to be one, but if he tried to impress me he didn't. The Satmarer seem to think that we have the Godol Hador here. Good for them. Reb Malkiel zol gezunt zein also seems mesmerized, for whatever reason. Rabbi Neuman is not impressed. It's not the content that's the problem, it's the delivery, the tone of voice, it turns me off, but that's just me. I'm a Moroh Shcheyreh'dike guy. I also don't think that the shiur was soooo Gevaldig, but that's my Ameratzis speaking. I know the Taam but I don't know the Kikar.
That was a joke. (the last line.)
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141 comments:
Regardless, R' Aharon Teitelbaum is one heck of a bigger talmid chochom the Rebbe ever was. I am sure he is jealous of the average Satmar boy in Cheder--now that he is in shomayim--because Satmar is the pnimius of Torah.
Anon 4:03,
"Words that come from the heart enter the heart"
(i hope you understand)
I am not sure what you mean, but I would inclined to respond with a simple, "Right back at 'ya."
HT, can you stop these AT partisans from posting. They are BORING
do they have a hetter to be on the net?
As a working guy yourself, I would have thought that you could appreciate Aaron Kotler's need to make a living, especially since he is raising money for Kolel yungerleit too, not just for himself.
I just listened to the shiur on their Hotline at 17183056942 and I have to tell you the shiur is according to chabad "L'matah M'asorah T'fochim"..and according to the Brisker shittah" L'maalah min H'shiur"
anon
whats your proof that Satmer Rebbe is a bigger talmid chochom?
No one has ever doubted that R. Aron can learn and learn well in the Hungarian model.. But why the need to comapre him to anyone else.
In addition why the need to compare him to the lubavitcher rebbe.
In Chassidus many rebbes did not feel the need to show their knowledge in Tore. The old Skverer never said Tore. The Bais Yisroel of Gur rarely spoke in Lomdus, and so on and so forth. Does the fact that the Stefaneshter rebbe in over 50 years of nesius never said Tore say he was a ignorant person (cholillo vechaas).
We have all adopted the yeshiva world definitons of knowledge and behavior and modalities. In this sense chassiduth is over. Is Tore soemthing that needs to be shown off at fund raising dinners or do such shiurim more properly belong in the beth medrash without cameras and and recorders, unless of course the "medaber" had soemthing else to prove as well.
I;ll say it one last time okay if you are a satmarer then of course Rabbi Aron is great, but are the others ready to forget about R. Aron's eprsonal foibles and his attitudes towards Israel (including towards Rav Shtainman) and accept him as the gadaol hador.
Ochen vey to that dor !
The conversation here is riveting! HT, you must have a hit counter through the roof on this one!
ahem.
The conversation here is riveting! HT, you must have a hit counter through the roof on this one!
ahem.
Here’s the point: Rav Chaim Volozhiner's revolution is truly over and we may as well fix gimel Tamuz as its yohrzeit. Here’s what I mean. Volozhin is conventionally credited with being “the mother of Yeshivas”. Yet we all know that Yeshivas have been part and parcel of the Jewish experience since Har Sinai. What Rav Chaim Volozhiner innovated was the concept of a free-standing institution that could transcend and outlive the intellectual and spiritual giants that incubated it.
E.g. the Mahrsha and Rav Yonoson Eibschutz maintained gigantic Yeshivas. When they got a new rabbonus shtella the Yeshivas moved with them. One didn’t learn “in” Frankfurt-am-main but “by” the Rebbe Reb Yonoson. When Mahrsha and Rav Yonoson Eibschutz were niftar the Yeshivas dissolved and most of the talmidim sought out new Rebbes (kind of like the earlier healthier generations of Chasidus when Rabbisteve was not purely hereditary and Chasidim did not sign lifetime affiliation contracts )
In contradistinction to this we find the litvishe/Volozhiner yeshiva revolution. Slabodka was not Mir was not Grodneh, was not Telshe was not Kelm was not Kaminetz, was not Nivardhok. Each Yeshiva INSTITUTIONALLY had its own wrinkle in Lomdus and, where applicable, in mussar. One was not a “vanilla” yeshiva man. Stating his Alma later could give you a pretty good notion of his Weltanschauung. At that time Brisk was just another (OK, perhaps the brightest) star in the Yeshiva constellation. It was not the totality of the constellation.
Up to a generation ago this obtained in the American and Israeli Yeshivesha velt as well. Baltimore, Telshe, Chaim Berlin, Torah Vo’Da’as and Lakewood, Chevron, Ponovezh and Mir all had a distinct shnit. Lakewood, especially, had feeds from its branches headed by R’Ahron Kotler zy”a talmidim Philly, Denver, Scranton and Long Beach. In that era the ambition of bochurim was not to go to Avrohom Yehoshua (Reb Berel z”l) but to make it to there own Roshei Yeshiva’s shiur 3-4 years after high school and then on to Lakewood. Having been mechunach by R’Ahron Kotler zy”a talmidim they were Lakewood type guys way before they even got to BMG the flagship school.
All this is dead today. We have come full circle and are back to “personality cult” Yeshivas. Can anyone imagine Passaic absent Rav Meir Stern? South Fallsburg without Rav Elya Ber? Patterson (I think) without Rabbi Swerdlov? IMO l’akher meah v’esrim these Yeshivas will all fold like cheap cameras and any Ba’al Tzedaka investing big money in buildings is wasting assets on diminishing returns. Don’t believe me? Just take a look at the turmoil in Philly and Long Beach over the last 6 years where the long-time Roshei Yeshiva are still alive but are simply not well. They provide instructive cautionary tales.
Until now observation. m’ka’an v’eilekh editorial interpretation:
IMO the reason for this phenomenon is not due to a lack of scholarship but due to a constriction and closing of the Charedi mind. Despites all the wailing and moaning about makhlokes and lack of unity today’s frum world is not just (externally) frummer than that of a generation ago, it is much more monolithic, monotonous and monochromatic. The great cacophony of voices has been stilled and the marketplace of ideas has closed shop. The great debates of lomdus vs. mussar, Zionism vs. anti-Zionism, secular education vs. full-time; long –time limud HaTorah have all been settled with (respectively) Brisk, the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Ahron Kotler the victors and Rav Yisrael Salanter, Rav Kook and Rav YB Soloveitchik the losers. Any die-hards who think otherwise are either too scared to express their minority opinions or as oblivious to the facts-on-the-ground as the Japanese fighters convinced of the Emperors desire for them to keep fighting World War II to the last man as late as 1949.
And so, Satmar had gained pre-eminence ideologically as Brisk has in Lomdus. In this ambience where there is only one flavor in the ice-cream parlor the only choice remaining is “who makes a better , richer more authentic vanilla”. Forget about Chocolate and strawberry let alone Mocha or Pistachio. No one is interested in hearing shiurm in the style of Rav Shimon Shkop or (SHUDDER) the Avnei Nezer. No one is inspired by mussar/hashkafa in the style of Rav Elya Lazer Dessler or Rav Yerucham. The only factor in a given mosad/ magid shiur/ communities “attractiveness” is how well does it approximate/ how quickly can it gain me entrée into… Satmar and/or Brisk. In religion the frummer, the more extreme, the more anti-Zionist/Goyim/modernity/secular education the better. In education, the more Brisk the lomdus (and the better the track record of acceptance by Avrohom Yehoshua) the better. No popular Yeshivas extant today will remain popular after the death and/or infirmity of their Roshei Yeshiva because whoever is the supreme Brisker lamdan of the moment and/or crony of Avrohom Yehoshua will then attract the best Bochurim.
And so I find all these expressions of shocked disbelief over BMG inviting the Monroe Satmar Rebbe to be the keynote speaker on Rav Shneurs z”l Yohrzeit comical. Lakewood stopped having a personality of its own even B’Chaim Chiyuso of Rav Shneur. Every place today is a satellite of Brisk and Satmar. As there is a long-standing the family feud between the Kotlers and the Soloveitchiks, and with a little D’var Torah Mo’ois Koinois to sweeten the pot no greater kavod could’ve been rendered Rav Shneur’s z”l memory than to showcase the titular head of the movement that defines the stripe of Yiras Shomayim, not merely ascendant, but in monopoly-like control, in contemporary frum Judaism.
Schneur -
Good points. Remember though, that it was the Satmar Rebbe, the Divrei Yoel, who stated that derech hachassidus had been forgotten.
IMO a self-fullfilling prophecy or to put it b'loshon n'kiyah the Navi/Rebbe zy"a engaged in amny Poel Dimyonis to actualize the prophecy.
Chaim G
please explain what you meant by the last comment.
With all due respect to you hershel, the fact that the Satmar Rebbe went to give a shiur at the largest event of the year in the yeshivish community is an earthquake for itself, can you imagine the Lubavitcher Rebbe OBM doing that?? After all The Satmar Rebbe with the position and tenure and the "Shitah" that he represents and carries from his predecessor's is not taken lightly, he is the leader of the biggest Anti-anything that symbolizes what R'yoel created, and for him to give a shiur at the flagship yeshivish-instituition is Historic.
With all due respect to you hershel, the fact that the Satmar Rebbe went to give a shiur at the largest event of the year in the yeshivish community is an earthquake for itself, can you imagine the Lubavitcher Rebbe OBM doing that?? After all The Satmar Rebbe with the position and tenure and the "Shitah" that he represents and carries from his predecessor's is not taken lightly, he is the leader of the biggest Anti-anything that symbolizes what R'yoel created, and for him to give a shiur at the flagship yeshivish-instituition is Historic.
First of all, to that person that made that extremely childish statement that Reb Ahron is one heck of a bigger talmid chachom then the Rebbe ever was, I say who made you a mavin on talmidei chachamim especially if you learnt in Satmar. Second of all, it is no big chidush that Reb Ahron gave a shiur in BMG. There always was this perception that the Reb Ahron Kotler was close to the old Satmar rav. It follows that Reb Ahron was invited. In fact they really did not particularly care for each other.
how does one rate who is a "bigger talmid chacham"? What are the criteria used?
ANON 11:16
'In fact they did not particularly care for each other'
You know that, how? Fly on the wall 50 years ago or stam a shoiteh?
Anyway, R'Ahron probably inherited his lomdus from his ancestor, the Alter Rebbe...
>>I say who made you a mavin on talmidei chachamim especially if you learnt in Satmar.
Never learned in Satmar. In fact, I never walked in there. But I read a couple of sichos, read through some shiurim of R' Ahron and made an informed decision. I think that just like the Rebbe's academic life was contrived entirely from whole cloth, his scholarship, too, in my opinion, still has to be proven by something more tangible than self-serving, highly unlikely fifth-hand stories and dubious quotes.
If anyone can show me a shtikkel TOrah of his on four or five sugyos in Shas, I promise to go through them with an open mind. Otherwise, my reasonable skepticsm remains.
aryeh ehrich said...
>>I say who made you a mavin on talmidei chachamim ?
I read a couple of sichos, read through some shiurim of R' Ahron and made an informed decision.
__
Is that supposed to be an answer to the question??? Obviously not.You have not proven a)that you are a top world-class talmid chochom, and for sure not b)that you are a greater talmid chochom than either the Lubavitch Rebbe zy"a or the Satmerer - both of which are minimal prerequisites to pass judgment on their status in lomdus. (Without prejudice re the Satmarer, and only as a general comment,) that you are impressed by someone's divrei Torah may very well demonstrate your am-horatzus, for another person reading the same may dismiss it in whole or in part. In plain English, you are simply projecting personal bias based on whatever agenda you have.
This becomes even more serious when considering that by your own admission you have never even bothered to study any of the Rebbe's Torah (truly astounding in view of the multi-voluminous accessibility), even while you looked at some teachings of another, and then arrogantly and presumptuously decide that A (whom you have seen) is greater than B (whom you have not seen and ignored, but for whatever reason dislike). Indeed, a very open-minded, objectiove and scholarly judgment. (What amazes me is that you are not even embarrassed to admit this publicly!)
From your writing it is obvious that you don't have the intellectual ability to peruse Likutei Sichos. If, however, you have gone to Yeshivah, and acquired some lomdus to understand an analysis and discussion of sugyos, I suggest you take a look at the volumes of the rebbe's Chidushim Ubi'urim beShass. Assuming (albeit "big assumption")that you do have a shred of learning and objectivity, I dare you to do so and then make a comment.
Needless to say, your comments do not really matter. Judgments by universally acknowledged qualified people to pronounce on lomdus and ge'onus, such as R. Mosheh F., R. Shlomoh Zalman A., R. Pinchas Hirshprung, and dozens more, who have expressed their amazement (verbally and in writing) at the Rebbe's ge'onus, is more than sufficient for anyone not discovereing that by himself through actual study of the Rebbe's Torah, and makes the comments of a microscopic creature like yourself a sad joke, and insightful commentary on the status of contemporary self-proclaimed "bnei Torah-lomdim."
The rest is commentary, so now go forth and start learning.
I love emes's comment: drivel, and without the slightest hint of logic.
I stated I saw some sichos and they did not overly impress me. I also wrote that I did not ever read any of his chiddushim, but would be willing to do so if someone sends me some. That is not smacking of arrogance or presumptuousness. It is a fact facting inquiry to see if there is any substance to the hype. If you have some, send it over. Believe me, I will be objective (unlike the Rebbe where he trashed the Chazon Ish--someone he was not in the position to insult on such a public level). Your post, on the other hand, well let's see: "From your writing it is obvious that you don't have the intellectual ability to peruse Likutei Sichos" and other prize quotes demonstrate your need to insult those who question the hype surrounding the Rebbe as a result of the exposure of the enormous amount of lies Chabad has made about the Rebbe. (the man did not go to U of B for longer than six months; and did not even go Sorbonne). I have a right to be questioning the long line of empty platitudes Chabad (and only Chabad) had made about the Rebbe's scholarship. As far as quotes from other Rabbonim, where did they write it? Where did Rav Shlomo Zalman write about the Rebbe? Same with respect to R' Moshe? I want to see it in THEIR seforim--not by the same printing houses which lied about other credentials of the Rebbe.
I will have an easy time going through the Rebbe's chiddushim. The question of whether I will be impressed is another story. I don't have to prove my scholarship to you. The fact is, I do have a basis thgouth which I can determine the scholarship of others. If that personally upsets you to the point where you have to launch into another tirade of personal attacks against me, don't bother. You have exposed yourself as a lackey without the barest ability to think objectively. And, if that is the case, you not only further proved by basis for being somewhat skeptical as to the full extent of the Rebbe's scholarship--you have demonstrated why you must hide behind personal insults instead of substance.
So go forth, send me something. Or shut up.
>>that you are impressed by someone's divrei Torah may very well demonstrate your am-horatzus, for another person reading the same may dismiss it in whole or in part. In plain English, you are simply projecting personal bias based on whatever agenda you have.
Interesting you mentione that. Some vapid, piece of !@#$% kofer and world-renowned am hooretz (and thief) published a defer which critiqued Rav Shach's sefer.
Aryeh would at least admit if he's wrong. You guys, well, you would just make things up.
I would agree with Aryeh. I promise to publicly express my appreciation for the Rebbe if I am impressed with but four or five of his essays in learning.
Please send it to me. I promise to be objective, fair, and honest.
SOMEHOW I doubt the honesty of some of the dirty-mouthed commenters here. Especially the comedian who made the Pachad Yitzchok joke, that was funny.
I also don't see what's so terrible about critiquing the Avi Ezri, is he better than Shas that he can't be disagreed with?
Let's see what we can do about getting Geonim some shtiklach Torah for them, shall we?
>>SOMEHOW I doubt the honesty of some of the dirty-mouthed commenters here. Especially the comedian who made the Pachad Yitzchok joke, that was funny.
See? This is the kind of response I am talking about--Pachad Yitzchok joke--and other pejorative phrasing without responding the content of the question. Its so evasive. What are you hiding?
>> is he better than Shas that he can't be disagreed with?
YOU may argue with Shas. No one else does. The point is that the amhooretz (and thief) who attempted to write a rebuttal did it in bad faith. Good faith is when I make a very reasonable conclusion--based on my reading the Sichos and Pachad Yitzchok--that the Sichos did not blow me away. And then you resort to insults. Why demonstrate your weakness like that? It only weakens your position.
Please send me a couple of shtiklach. At least I will be honest. Judging from your comments about the PY (you never learned it), that is something I have over you.
has anybody else here noticed that ANONYMOUS wants me to send him some Shtiklach?! I mean, where do I send it to, anonymous@lakewood.com?
and this guy is gonna decide if the Rebbe's chiddushim make the cut?!
>>And by the way, to Emes--Likutei Sichos is a joke. Comes nowhere near Pachad Yitzchok--for example--not to mention Sfas Emes and other classics.
Anonomous, he was writing in response to this comment (note he did not argue vis-a-vis the Sfas Emes). He was just being partisan, that's all. Obviously, he does not know better, butm in fairness, the above-comment was not fair, either.
But I hear where you come from. Especially, after Rav Lazar pointed out the hatred and animosity the Rebbe had for the CI (and anyone who did not learn Chassidus) that would cause him to insult someone who is dead and a lot older than him, I was shocked. He (and my Rabbeim) always talked respectfully about the Rebbe. But the sicha which justified the attack was so poorly reasoned that it made me question things again. I would like to examples of his lomdus because I am sincerely interested in knowing what he was like. That's it.
You have nothing to lose, especially given your extremely strongly held position about the Rebbe's scholarship.
I would not care, for example, what you say about R' Moshe. The world know what he is, and his seforim are avialable. I do not live in an area where the Rebbe's seforim are accessible. Accordingly, I reach out to you to give me some shtiklach.
There, is that an insult?
I will give you an email address. Would you send it to me, if I do that?
I am in the position to appreciate the gadlus of a talmid chochom.
The Rebbe never said anything hateful or insulting about the Chazon Ish. Can you understand that?!
No, I guess you can't.
Yes he did. He supported motzi shem rah about the CI, and implied that he did not know Kaballah (which he knew very well).
Can you understand that?
No, I guess you cannot.
His rancid hatred is palpable in his writing, refering to him as a mere "lamdan." Its amazing that you are so bought into idealogy that you cannot see the impropriety.
it was not Motzi SR since it was said about Chassidus Chabad, not Kabboloh. rancid hatred? puh-leez. Go listen to the clip again, that is if you can understand Jewish at all.
Listen Here
Never in my life have I read a stupider conversation than this one… funny though, I seem to recall a similar conversation that went on in my 3rd grade class. But fellas, seriously, stop the insanity!
The Rebbe’s gadlus in Torah isn’t a matter of disagreement. Let’s leave Rav Shach aside for a moment here – because to every other rabbinic figure, the Rebbe was universally recognized as a leading gadol b’Torah. This was something that NO other authority disputed. They may have disputed positions that the Rebbe took and they may have disputed some of the Rebbe’s opinions, but never did anyone dispute the Rebbe’s scholarship. To even say anything along those lines is so completely ignorant that it doesn’t deserve a response (and I am only commenting here because a friend asked me to).
To recognize the Rebbe’s greatness in learning may be somewhat harder for an uninitiated layman outsider– because most of what we have would require a decent understanding of Toras hachassidus as a prerequisite – and unfortunately the Rebbe didn’t write any sforim (nor did he serve as a Rosh Yeshiva giving shiurim in Nigleh and halacha). But while we have a limited amount chidushei Torah for you to relate to, they do exist – there are printed chidushim on shas, there are many really incredible chidushim on aggadeta, there are Igros with many nigla references. There are compilations on many a subject, there are the Rebbes mafteychos – such as on Sdei Chemed…
The Rebbe learned from, and was recognized by, many of the greatest leaders of the past generations – from R’ Moshe Feinstein to the Rogochover to Reb Boruch Ber. The Rebbe was one of teh foremost gedolei Torah in his time and nobody, until recently, said anything different.
So you ask for a place to look – what subject are you looking for? Hebrew? English? You can start looking here: http://store.kehotonline.com/index.php?parentid=60&deptid=3257
CE, you are a mentch. Thank you for writing the way you did and for providing me this cite. I will look into it and tell you what I think.
I would add that I have never in my life heard anything about R' Boruch Ber, R' Moshe or the Rogatchover and how they felt about the Rebbe's scholarship. In addition, it is well known that many Roshei Yeshiva were extremely vexed by the Rebbe--and it was not personal. I am not sure what any of those Roshei Yeshiva maintained vis-a-vis his scholarship.
I have heard a lot about the Rebbe. But it was from Chabad. My search for the truth was promprted by the recent, well known exposure about certain lies perpetrated by Chabad about the Rebbe's academic abilities and achievements. To this end, I am just checking.
Herschel Tzig: it was hatred. I am sorry that you cannot see how something as unsupported as chassidus being the pnimius of Torah is not anything by racist, haughty, and elitist--the only byproduct of which can lead to enormous sinas chinam and disrepsect toward undispited gedolei Torah. There is no justification for it.
>>The Rebbe was one of teh foremost gedolei Torah in his time and nobody, until recently, said anything different.
Funny, Chabad usually says he was the greatest. . . you are downplaying it now.
He supported motzi shem rah about the CI, and implied that he did not know Kaballah (which he knew very well).
a) Is relating a maamar chazal that applies to all Jews, without distinction from the greatest to the smallest, let alone referred to in the Gemoro specifically to tzadikim!, an insult and motzi shem ra??? This would be the biggest joke coming from an alleged ben torah, if it wouldn't be so sad (in addition to ignorant and stupid).
b)Where and when did the Rebbe say that the CI didn't know Kaboloh???
And for that matter - how do you know that he did know? Did you test him on it? Are there any writings of his on the subject? Did he ever claim that he knew, or is it just assumed automatically by those who obviously haven't a clue what kabolo is and what it is talking about?
Listen
you must know, after all you just do, right?
nothing I say will change that. It must be pure bliss living in your world.
Anon, we can discuss this if you like. We can go though it point by point in a rational way without anyone getting excited. Here's the deal:
The Rebbe was a Chossid and maintained thr Chassidishe POV, of course. I don't know of any hatred that you speak of.
The Rebbe and R' Moshe had a friendly relationship of mutual respect - ultimately the Rebbe arranged to have Rabbeinu Tam tefilin written for R' Moshe (with R' Moshe's specifications). The Rebbe was a close talmid of the Rogochover, and R’ Baruch Ber literally cried when the Rebbe declined the offer to become his talmid. The Rebbe’s Torah knowledge was respected by his opponents as well – even such opponents as the Satmar Rov and Rav Hutner agreed to this. Even R’ Aharon Kutler never criticized the Rebbe as a Talmud chochum. All attacks against the Rebbe in this area are part of a revision that is the result of many sad things, and people driven by motives that may be somewhat understandable but nevertheless improper.
You throw the word “lies” around, however that isn’t really accurate. There have been inaccuracies, misunderstandings, and perhaps exaggerations – but not lies. We can discuss these calmly if you’d like to specify.
>>a) Is relating a maamar chazal that applies to all Jews, without distinction from the greatest to the smallest, let alone referred to in the Gemoro specifically to tzadikim!, an insult and motzi shem ra??? This would be the biggest joke coming from an alleged ben torah, if it wouldn't be so sad (in addition to ignorant and stupid).
The maamar Chazal is not the issue--it is the application to ashrei mi shebo likaan vitalmudo biyodo--and the unsupported assertion that talmudo includes the so called pninmius of Torah, Chassidus, which served as the justification to suggest that he must be jealous upstairs in his canopy. That was out and out, crass hatred and motzi shem roah. After the
CH was niftar, which is even more serious. The fact you cannot appreciate that this was my justification from the get go demonstrates that you are the stupid and ignorant one (not to mention not a ben torah).
>>And for that matter - how do you know that he did know? Did you test him on it? Are there any writings of his on the subject? Did he ever claim that he knew, or is it just assumed automatically by those who obviously haven't a clue what kabolo is and what it is talking about?
Based on the testimony of his contemporaries--big and small. The very (and, apparently only) basis for which Chabad assumes its Rebbe was such a great talmid chochom. I request anectodal evidence of the Rebben meeting with R' Bruch Ber, for one--I do not believe that happened. I also want citations fron non Chabad sites which demonstrate a relaitonship R' Moshe and the ROgachover had with the Rebbe. I never heard the former regarded the Rebbe as one of the greatest talmidei chachomim alive.
Anon, you seem very objective here...
Hatzlocha in your learning.
Why are you rambling on on this site exactly? Is this is how you always discuss things?
Reminds me of my days in Litvishe Yeshiva, where kmat every chavrusa was busy arguting his svora without any concern for the pont. If you had a different svora he just said his over a little more animated.
avu zenen di gleiche kep?
For the record, it is entirely irrelevant to me what anybody believes or dosent believe. You can have any opinion you like, it dosent make the slightest difference as far as I'm concerned - it would only matter of you were actually interested.
But while many roshei yeshiva were "vexed," it had to do with things other than learning.
I would like to point out that there is a Sefer from the Rebbe on Rambam, Nigleh. I did perusue it, and was impressed by the bekiuse, less impressed by the Lomdus. To be 100% honest, I think if he would have spent a few years in Brisk, he would been a bigger Talmid Chochum. This happens to be my true opinion, but before all you Lubavitchers attack me, think... how is this diffrent than what YK said about the CI
I never heard this story R' Moshe, and absent a a verifiable source, I am extremely suspicious about the R' Baruch Ber story. Extremely. And R' Ahron and Rav Hutner never commented on his scholarship. They, not to mention the Satmar Rebbe, actually had some issues with the Rebbe as a person, which is very odd. R' Yaakov--based on the Making of a Gadol--had some questions about his as a person, too. I went through a lot in Dibros Moshe, Mishnas R' Ahron, and enough pieces in the Zichron sefer on Rav Hutner to get a feel for why they were so highly regarded--and why their reputations are so obviously justified. I would prefer to do the same thing with the Rebbe's torah--not merely because of my strong suspicious about the veracity of the truth of your representations (not to say you are lying, I just don't trust your sources; especially after what I discovered about the Rebbe's academic career which everyone talked about so emphatically), but because I would then also know, without a doubt, that the Rebbe was entitled to his opinions as a matter of fact--not merely because he was chassidish.
Please indulge me, and if you need my email address, I will email you for it. Otherwise--to be frank--I am in a crisis here.
I would agree that the Rebbe was more noteh to bekius than lomdus at least later in life, however as a younger man that may not have been the case. Interestingly, when i was a bochur I was surprised to hear that when the Rebbe was asked what the ideal derech halimud is he answered, "Brisk" (but I never confirmed this story). It should also be pointed out that the Rebbe's fondess for Brisk and the Soloveichiks was well known (and The Rebbe's father had smicha from the Brisker Rov).
But back to your accusation. Using your logic, anyone who didn’t write about something is probably ignorant of it? So, since you haven’t learned any sifrei lomdus from them, we can assume that other than a few Chassidim, all other Tzaddikim were am-haaratzim? Of course the Maggid (close friend of the Pnei Yehoshua) probably couldn’t learn - and it goes without saying that the Baal Shem Tov was probably ignorant as well?
It also follows that since I never wrote that I ate food, I probably have been fasting all my life.
Anyone that has spent significant time (not just glancing at a sicha once or twice) learning from or listening to the Lubavitcher Rebbe OBM, would never make such ridiculous accusations. If you really cared you could try it – or you could research the letters between the Rogochover and the Rebbe, or there may even be letters between the Rebbe and R’ Moshe that you can find. Also, the story with R’ Baruch Ber was told by a Litvak with no interest in promoting Lubavitch.
So, you dont have to like Lubavitch and you don't have to respect the Rebbe, but just recognize that the accusations are foolish and dishonest, and unfitting for a ben-Torah.
The only Lubavitch sefer I ever went though on Nigleh was Zichron Yosef. It was impressive. The lomdus was quite good. Its not like what I am used to from Litvish Rosh Yeshivs, but it is obvious he's quite special. He quotes the Rebbe several times, which is why I started getting really curious.
>>
Why are you rambling on on this site exactly? Is this is how you always discuss things?
Reminds me of my days in Litvishe Yeshiva, where kmat every chavrusa was busy arguting his svora without any concern for the pont. If you had a different svora he just said his over a little more animated.
That's it? THAT"S your answer to my critique of the patently faulty logic? That's pathetic.
>>But while many roshei yeshiva were "vexed," it had to do with things other than learning.
They had problems with him as a person--it goes hand in hand with learning. I never saw a single quote or heard a single verifiable maasah that any gadol held so highly of the Rebbe as you claim.
>>And for that matter - how do you know that he did know? Did you test him on it? Are there any writings of his on the subject? "Did he ever claim that he knew, or is it just assumed automatically by those who obviously haven't a clue what kabolo is and what it is talking about?
Based on the testimony of his contemporaries--big and small."
How interesting. Can you quote a single "testimony" by a bar hochi to that effect? "Big and small" - I suppose like yourself (and hakol holech achar hachitum, thus emphasis on small...)
" The very (and, apparently only) basis for which Chabad assumes its Rebbe was such a great talmid chochom."
For that you don't need others' testimonies (same as you don't need it for the CI, for as in his case) there is a whole library of the Lubavitzer Rebbe's writings that speaks for itself and that covers in unequalled depth every area of Torah. So why don't you get off your high donkey (no, maybe you should stay on it, so you won't continue playing with it like Bilam - as is quite clear from your writing and we have a Torah principle that sholach yodov bishloimov chilel brisoi, and your memories are fresh enough from those things to know exactly what i mean), and get somebody to teach you some Torah.
>>avu zenen di gleiche kep?
That;s my point--the logic here is not gleich. What are you trying to say? Are you just reversing what I am saying without justification? Is that how you prove points?
>>Also, the story with R’ Baruch Ber was told by a Litvak with no interest in promoting Lubavitch.
Here we go again. WHO? WHERE? WHEN? Come on, stop being so self serving and get to the point.
>>But back to your accusation. Using your logic, anyone who didn’t write about something is probably ignorant of it? So, since you haven’t learned any sifrei lomdus from them, we can assume that other than a few Chassidim, all other Tzaddikim were am-haaratzim?
Interesting. I know nothing about the Maggid's knowledge. The Toldos, yes, it is known what he knew. The Haflaah (obviously!). But R' Shelmke? R' Zisha? A big part of chassidus is that you are a good Jew is you serve Hashem with love and utter devotion, with happoiness. That's what they believed. It stresses humility and connecting with Hashem through tefillan and simcha. The fadct that such tzasikim were not on the par of the Shaagas Aryeh would prove their point--that you could ba tzadik without haveing the accomplishments of the SA.
>>How interesting. Can you quote a single "testimony" by a bar hochi to that effect? "Big and small" - I suppose like yourself (and hakol holech achar hachitum, thus emphasis on small...)
>>So why don't you get off your high donkey (no, maybe you should stay on it, so you won't continue playing with it like Bilam - as is quite clear from your writing and we have a Torah principle that sholach yodov bishloimov chilel brisoi, and your memories are fresh enough from those things to know exactly what i mean), and get somebody to teach you some Torah.
Here we go, again. Personal insults. Write out your question without an insult, and I will give you sources. Until then you are not worth my time.
>>that speaks for itself and that covers in unequalled depth every area of Torah.
There we go again. The same self-serving, conclusory statements I always hear!!! Do you actually think for yourself? Do you have a mind? Why do you act like a mindless Moonie? This is all you have? You are an embaressment to a man you are claiming to be Moshiach and the greatest man alive. Don't you see that?
funny - you really don't know anything at all about chassidus. You crack me up with your assumptions about chassidim and Rebbes - but you really don't care about "understanding" you just want to beat the drum. Gezunterheit! Stick with the Litvaks.
Zeit matzliach!
The R' Baruch Ber story (told IIRC by a rov from Detroit)can be found here:
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-encouter-with-rebbe.html
I doubt you can actually say I know nothing about chassidus. Maybe I know nothing about Chabad. I admit that. But Chassidus? I don;t think you are correct. Do you have sources for your contentions, btw? That's what I asked for. Do you also have examples of chiddushei Torah? That's something else I asked for. Do you have anything responsive to anything I asked for or are you just trying to be a nudnick? Seriously. Don't waste my time
How do you know what teh Toldos knew? Is there any Lomdus sefer from him?
Anon, you might like this:
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2007/02/debate-at-mayanot.html
>>How do you know what teh Toldos knew? Is there any Lomdus sefer from him?
I believe the stories about him because even non chassidim talk about it.
>>And for that matter - how do you know that he did know? Did you test him on it? Are there any writings of his on the subject? "Did he ever claim that he knew, or is it just assumed automatically by those who obviously haven't a clue what kabolo is and what it is talking about?
Based on the testimony of his contemporaries--big and small."
In all humility, without an axe to grind, could you indeed offer such "testimony"? I am not insulting you, so there is no reason or excuse to evade the issue. I know a lot about the CI, but never heard or saw that he was involved with kabalah. If you have reliable evidence (unlike hear-say and say-so that you rightly dismiss), please let us know.
Maybe we should set up a committee of all the anonymouses here, and of course Yonah and Aryeh, and have them farher every Chassidisher Rebbe going back to the Besht himself to see if they pass the test?
>>In all humility, without an axe to grind, could you indeed offer such "testimony"? I am not insulting you, so there is no reason or excuse to evade the issue. I know a lot about the CI, but never heard or saw that he was involved with kabalah. If you have reliable evidence (unlike hear-say and say-so that you rightly dismiss), please let us know.
No problem, I will provide a basis for it shortly. Thank you for writing like a mentch this time.
I see no one responded to me with what I wanted. I will listen to Shochet's tape, but, as some commenter's noted on the thread, he is not entirely honest. I met him in Toronto twice and he lied to me -- white lies, but lies nontheless -- so I will listen, but with a grain of salt.
It's HaRav Yonah Lazar, shlit"a. He is one the great gedolim of our times.
Anon,
Before I sign off I'll just clarify since I actually don't know what you’re looking for. Here’s all I am saying:
First of all, I don’t care what you believe – you can believe the moon is made of cheese for all I care – the only reason I even commented was on the outside chance that you actually were interested in a dialogue, but I don’t think that’s the case. Anyway, if you cared to spend the time researching you will easily find that the Rebbe was quite a capable talmid chochom, if you seriously studied a few of the sforim you wouldn’t make such statements - even though he didn’t devote his life to disseminating lomdus. His contemporaries never even mentioned anything otherwise, to the contrary. To that you just say you don’t believe it. Nu, nu, so don’t – there is no end to that. There were many famous gedolei Torah that testified to this, I don’t know all of them, and I’m not about to devote any time to search out specific quotes – the chazaka is there.
Do you have any proof that I said something untrue? What examples do you have of someone accusing the Rebbe of being a Torah lightweight?
You mention “lies.” If you would like to discuss lies, what are lies do you wish to address? I do agree that Chassidim have a tendency to ascribe every kind of greatness to their Rebbe, and to be sure not all of those things are true, but gadlus b’Torah is one thing that’s pretty confirmed.
Of course, in fact, the derech haBaal Shem Tov included far more than such simplistic goals as you mention. It was focused on deveikus and kedusha. Limud HaTorah wasn’t a side issue – the gedolei hachassidim were rabbonim, talmidei chachomim (even though they often had to give up their rabbonus and run for their lives from the early misnagdim). Yes, they preached a movement of inclusion, which meant that they didn’t disparage the pshutei ha’am, but the Baal Shem and his famous talmidim, as well as talmidei hamaggid utalmidei talmidov, were great gedolei b’Torah.
The Shaagas Arye was one of the greatest gedolei Torah ever. The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe once mentioned that the S”A finished Shas 400 times (IIRC). And while there are probably very few people that were on his level of scholarship, ever, that doesn’t mean they weren’t gedolim in their own right. The simple truth is that all of these figures were great in Torah, each with their own particular style and genius. The fact is that the Rebbe was recognized as such. You can claim that the Rebbe was many things, but am haaretz isn’t one of them, it’s simply stupidity.
Our learned expert on lomdus and ge'onus is hiding his cards.
By his criteria Rashi and Rambam do not pass his test. After all, what do you see from them? Just a bit of beki'us. From Rashi all we have is very nice commentaries on the Tnach (which obviously are just for a ben chomesh lemikro), on the Gemoro, a few teshuvos, the piskei halochoh in the writings of his talmidim, none of which have pilpul or lomdus that would pass the test of Lakewood or Brisk - where you have to build "migdal haporeach boavir" and then demolish it piece by piece with all kinds of pilpulim and chakiros. Rambam was merely a collector of halochos, and even in that he was criticised by Raved who called him all kinds of names, and where is the lomdus in hias seforim? Bekius yes, but lomdus? On top of that, all the limudei chol that he learned (more than today's equivalent of university) and engaged in - Greek and Arab philosophers, medicine and medical journals etc. No wonder the Vilna Gaon said of him that "the cursed philosophy has led him astray"...
For that matter, practically all rishonim - brief and concise teshuvos, just answering the questions - no lomdus, no pilpulim' no chakiros, just "dry facts".
Wow, and trhere we go around wasting our time studying all these texts of rishonim based on the say-so of various individuals, and the mind-boggling hagiographic stories told about them which makes the Shivchei Habesht look like a serious philosophical text.
Yup, we now have objective criteria to measure lomdus from our resident expert and his cohorts to set our minds straight on how to measure and determine gadkus in Torah and lomdus that should impress. Too bad they came so late, after we wasted all our time on those mediocre texts of wannabe geonim. I am so glad you enlightened me, and I will most seriously consider your words for what they are worth.
ftnl said...
"In fact they did not particularly care for each other'
You know that, how? Fly on the wall 50 years ago or stam a shoiteh?”
There is a private tape available of the old Satmar rebbe saying that Reb Ahron Kotler did not understand the issues. In a article in the Machnah HaCharedi (1981) there is a comment attributed to Rav Ahron Kotler after he saw the Satmar rebbes sefer va’Yoel Moshe that it’s discernable that he did not learn in a god Yeshivah. I know of other instances as well. They rewrote the books on this one. Sure they had contact with each other but they were both strong personalities that could not have gotten along with each other.
The original Anonymous stated that “Regardless, R' Aharon Teitelbaum is one heck of a bigger talmid chochom the Rebbe ever was.” This statement proves that this Anonymous never went through R' Aharon Teitelbaum’s Torah either.
Indeed. The Rebbe cried profusely when HaRav Lazar, shlit"a did not joing Chabad. His unparalleled knowledge and depth in all of Torah is known to all. And there's no need to even get into the fact that he corresponded with all the gedolim of the time! Clearly, this man is the greatest man of the century, if not Mashiach!!!
Ce, I want dialogue, I want proof. I never suggested otherwise. Lies include the intentional mistatement that the Rebbe went to Sorbonne, that he was a better student in Univ. of Berlin even though he was never techinically a student there. I will start with these. The self serving statements and conclusory opinions that I found concerning his academic credntials are--to the word--used to describe his gadlus b'Torah. That's why I asked questions. And all I want is a couple of shtiklach, and I will be ok. That is realyl all I am asking for.
As far as what Chassidus is about--I am talking about the differences between them and the Jews before them. They departed because the emphaszed certain things, as Jews before them also emphasized kedusha and taharah. I went through a lot of the Toldos, and I know for a fact that the Baal Shem Tov maintained that he raised in his level of dveikus more through tefillah than in Torah. Please don't lie about what chassidus--then--emphasized.
Anonomous 2 does not make any sense. All lomdus starts with understanding Rashi and the other Rishonim. This kind of disingenuous post does not deserve a response.
i wish all these anons would choose a name - any name - it makes it near impossible to follow anything here!
Anonomous 2 does not make any sense. All lomdus starts with understanding Rashi and the other Rishonim. This kind of disingenuous post does not deserve a response.
Friday, June 22, 2007 10:35:00 AM
Is that so? So before that there simply was no lomdus! This is not disingenuous but simply ingenuous!
By your type of reasoning, lomdus is to make up your own questions and then your own answers to respond, in other words no more than mental acrobatics. Rashi says lo bossi elo lefaresh peshuto shel mikro, so even a ben chomesh lemikro can understand him. But the Lakewood-KiryatYoel-BneiBrak lomdim are smarter than Rashi (or Rambam)...
Indeed, Anonymous 2 opened up a whole new perspective of most intriguing consequences. He is quite right that using the criteria of the Lakewood-Kiryat Yoel Axis Rashi and Rambam were great beki’im but not profound lomdim. Aderaba, where do you find their “L-KY”-type of lomdus? Some of the baalei Tossfos, Ran, Rashbo, Ramban, Nimukei Yosef, and a dozen or so more rishonim – yes, but most of them not.
By the same reasoning, can anyone show me, to quote our favorite poster, 5 shtiklech of lomdus of the Vilna Gaon? All we have are some glosses on Shas and Shulchan Aruch. In the hagohos on Shas, Tossefta etc. he is like a modern Talmud-professor who freely emends the text. The only extensive writings we have are again Bible-commentaries and his Kabalistic commentaries which have much less nigleh than the maamorim and sichos of the Lubavitz Rebbe. So where is the L-KY type of lomdus???
While we are at it let’s go further: where is the lomdus of hundreds of Tannaim? All they do is transmit and/or briefly discuss traditional teachings. No pilpul, no sugya-analysis etc. We can go on and on with this type of review, and thus must conclude with our favorite L-KY poster that Reb Aron Teitelbaum and the Lakewood/Bnei Brak roshei yeshivos are definitely greater than the tannaim, Rashi, Rambam, Gra etc.
By the way, I have always been fascinated by the fact that all those who scream from the rooftops about the greatness of the Moron Godol Hador from Bnei Brak who died a few years ago, never ever are able to repeat for me a single shtikel Torah of his! This mean they rely on the pseudo-chasidic tradition (referred to by this poster) of “hear-say testimonies” about his greatness without ever even having seen (never mind learned) any of his writings!
Yes, indeed, we live in interesting times where everyone is a qualified critic and expert. And they acquire their expertise from the internet blogs, newspapers, and the political gossipry in their beis midrash. Maybe that’s why the Lubavitz rebbe said Moshiach is just about to be revealed, for clearly the last mshnah in Sotah, giving the signs for this, is clearly and doubtlessly proven fulfilled before our eyes by our poster and his cohorts.
. . .I am also certain the the Shaagas Aryeh was who he was because he was NOT a chussid. The same goes for the Gaon. There are no examples of anything remotely close to what they were among Chassidish products.
. . . And that is a fact, as the real ones acknowledged it themselves.
Both Anonomous2 and Pshat (likely the same person--please check this out Hersch) make so little sense that it is impossible to enter into dialogue with them. You are simply to dense (and possibly kofrim based on your comment about the Rebbe being Moshiach) as to deserve a response.
. . .and no one lied about a certain Rosh Yeshiva going to Sorbonne--not so the Chabad. I asked questions because everything else Chabad said was proven to be a lie.
. . . And I went through Avi Ezri--so your ridiculous generalization, obviously, does not apply.
Lies include the intentional mistatement that the Rebbe went to Sorbonne,
Lies? The critics who researched this found the papers that he was registered at a Polytechnical Institute which is part of the Sorbonne System!
_____________
that he was a better student in Univ. of Berlin even though he was never techinically a student there.
Whether he was a registered full-time student or audited classes (as testified by contemporaries, including RYBS) is irrelevant. He was there.
___________
I will start with these. The self serving statements
Self-serving? How? For whom? Who gains from this info? Who cares whether he was an autodidact or a student at university? And especially since you discount university-studies anyway, your claim that he did not go should enhance him in your eyes! So what is your would-be self-serving point???
anonymous 11:09am
stop with the kofrim talk, it's silly. I can't be busy checking out everybody's IP addresses to see if they're posting under different names. I would ask YOU to choose a name, any name, and stick with it. That way I can know who to respond to, instead of just looking at a bunch of anonymouses.
And I went through Avi Ezri--so your ridiculous generalization, obviously, does not apply.
For now I call you a shameless liar. If within the next ten minutes you can post a single shtikel from the Moron I will publicly apologize to you and beg your forgiveness. If not, everything I said stands! Ball in your court, dude.
Whether he was a registered full-time student or audited classes (as testified by contemporaries, including RYBS) is irrelevant. He was there.
I was writing about lies that he got better grades than RYBS--which could not have heppened as he was not a student. And he was there for only six months.
I do not believe its part of Sorbonne
For those of you in Lakewood who would like to see a shtikkel Torah from the Rebbe that you'd appreciate, I'd suggest you seek out a yungerman by the name of Nochem Grunwald, a fine Talmid Chochom, as well as a very sharp mind. He'll be sure to help. If you're serious, that is.
I believe this is his address (from whitepages.com) If not I apologize. I hope this is OK.
Grunwald, Nochem
37 Maplewood Ter
Lakewood, NJ 08701-2991
(732) 886-9702
>>Self-serving? How? For whom? Who gains from this info? Who cares whether he was an autodidact or a student at university? And especially since you discount university-studies anyway, your claim that he did not go should enhance him in your eyes! So what is your would-be self-serving point???
Self-serving in the sense that it exalts someone who needs to be exalted because he is your Rebbe. And they are lies because they are not true.
I never said I don't respect university education. Please don't make things up. Most significantly, however, I HATE dishonesty. My point is that if so much was fabricated about him --and the same language and generalizations are used to describe his learning--I am just asking for shtiklach to ease my mind and clear my confidence. That's it. Why can't you just send me a couple?
Finally. Thank you.
I will send him a letter or call him sometime soon.
NO problem. I will go with the last one I did on Shomea Koonah (though it, on its own right hardly stands for anything--merely clarifying a question).
I will do it right now. Give me your email address.
Let’s stop the accusations and conspiracies – you guys with the “liar” talk, by doing so, are just guilty of exaggeration as those that exaggerate the Rebbe’s record. Here goes:
First of all, the Rebbe never made these statements, they were rumors and statemenst made by Chassidim based on what people thought or heard for others “in the know.” There isn’t any fabrication, rather, there is confusion – and the confusion is being slowly clarified over the years.
The Rebbe was in University. He attended university in Berlin, In the Sorbonne and in ESTP. He worked for the navy (and as such needed various qualifications, that he obviously had) – not that any of this matters. Exactly what, when, how long, or any other details were entirely unknown until recently. Stop the hatred, these aren’t “lies;” there are examples of overzealous Chassidim, but not schemes to deceive.
I am wondering about the extent to which Chassidim may have been overly zealous in describing the learning of their Rebbe. And I am concerned because I actually WANT to look up to him. For me, learning is a big thing to look up to. Just show me something and I will do it. That's it.
I will do it right now. Give me your email address.
Nice try. Post it right here and now!
Hasogos Elokus was fundamental to the Baal Shem Tov v'talmidov. This only works with real Torah knowledge - we aren’t talking about a bunch of nice happy, unlearned, folks. The Hafloh and Baal HaTanya were two of the greatest acknowledged gaonim of their time who were devoted to the Maggid and the talmidei hamaggid. Of course, it is known that the Baal Hatanya referred to R’ Zushia as “harav” which he didn’t just use for everyone. There are many testimonies about the greatness of R' Mendele Vitebsker and R' Boruch'l in Medzibuz, as well as the Hafloh's brother, the Rebbe, R' Shmelke. The Toldos and Maggid were incredible gaonim in nigla.
That said, every gadol has their area of expertise. There are gedolim who’s primary expertise may be Halacha, the Stiepler wasn’t a halchist but he was a gaon in shas, the Brisker Rov’s expertise was in his lomdus, while the Netziv had a different approach – and while Rav Shach wasn’t considered the world’s greatest in lomdus, but he has unparalleled in his hasmoda. So what?
I never claimed that the Rebbe was the greatest ever in lomdus, nor did I claim that he the greatest lamdan in his time, nevertheless he was still A lamdan and gadol B’Torah (as was never doubted by his contemporaries – and you can see the shvachim to this regard by such people as R’ Pinchas Menachem of Ger, or Rav Hirshprung in Canada or Rav Gavriel Tzinner). The Rebbe’s primary expertise wasn’t Kabbala or Halacha or Science or History, rather it was Chassidus, and primarily Chabad Chassidus. He was knowledgeable in many, many, areas – some we know, some we don’t – but he was a Rebbe and quite qualified to be one. You can look at his chiddushim in nigla – the sforim are out there. But if you want to see his brilliance, you’ll have to look at the chelek of Torah that was his primary focus, which wasn’t lomdus, it was chassidus – which is just as legitimate a chelek of Torah (and perhaps more so).
You know something? This is not worth it. I only insulted your feelings and insulted a Rebbe, which I never really wanted to do.
I am sorry.
I really want to know how to look at certain controversial figures. Because of some questions, I actually went through some Zichron shiurim from RYBS to get a glimpse of what he was like. I want to do the same for the Rebbe. Despite my upbringing and reservations about some isssues (which is far from unique to me), I really wanted to get a glimpse into his mind and throught process, understand who he really was. I guess that is something I won't be able to do. At least for now. This is because I have no access to his writings.
[For the record, I agree that RYBS was a lamdan of special significance, though I do not believe his talmidim understood him as well as say, R' Velvel's talmidim understood their Rebbe. I add that some points seemed a bit wild. But overall, there is no questioning his intellectual standing and understanding of the Gemara. He was a rare talmid chochom].
I owe a public apology to some sensitive, well meaning chassidim on this blog. More significantly, I own an apology to a gavra rabba, whose name I did not sufficiently respect in my zeal to understand and know. That was extremely wrong. I am sorry and I promise I will never do it again.
Former Anon,
Who ever claimed to have knowledge about whether or not the Rebbe's grades were better or worse than the Rav? That’s baloney – nobody ever even made such a claim.
I mean, not that it matters, but R’ YBS was star philosophy student (not that you’d know if from his shiurim, to my knowledge he hardly spoke of philosophy), nobody ever made such a claim about the Rebbe.
I read that claim--its on the net. I would not make it up. The point is, I want closure on this--not because it was appropriate to make such a wild assertion--but because its wrong to potentially demean a gavra rabba.
You read the claim on the net? you give credence to everything you find on the net? If you have a link I'd be interested to see it, but I dont think it was from any official site or by resposible people. It's an incredibly ignorant and stupid claim.
Also, if you don't mind me saying so, to find out about the Rebbe's gadlus in learning, I wouldn't expect much to do so fom a collection of baalei eisek on some blog (Sorry Hirshel, but how many really knowlwdegable Lubavitchers are there here?).
Maybe it's just me, but if I want to find out abour the Rebbe's lomdus I'd check with Lubavitcher lamdonim (R' Ezra ir Immanuel Shochet, R' Yisroel Friedman, R' Heller, R' Berel Levin, etc). And if you don't know (or can't reach) any, at least check with some kind of an authority or knowledgeable person.
A couple addresses you can email to (they'll answer you, as long as you ask like a mentch):
R' Sholom Ber Levine: Levine@chabadlibrary.org
R' Michoel Seligson: michoel.seligson@gmail.com
I know that I'm late to the conversation here, but as an outsider that's been around a little, I can say that while we were critical of Lubavitch in the Yeshiva world, the doubts about gadlus in nigla were about the Rebbe prior to the last one.
Certainly is alot to the previous comment of 2:01. And this emphasis into whether the Rebbe was a Gadol B’Torah is certainly new to most Chassidim (though not Chabad). But the guy who wrote that the Biur Hgra is not full of Lomdus has shown how little he know about both Lomdus and the Biur Hgra. Who the Gaon would attribute a certain Halach to was the brilliance of the work, not just simply looking up the Bais Yosef and writing his source. In addition, there are numerous other questions and answers, long discussions etc their.
Manyy ppl here are jealous from the Rebbe
It is unbeliveable how now many ppl are claiming to be the originals in outeach programs,and even knowing that the Rebbe was for far the greatest TC of the generation according to Many Gedolim, now thay have doubts
who cares? it was always the same story
Now they are going to say that Satmar made more BT than Chabad
nu nu nu
I add that some points seemed a bit wild. But overall, there is no questioning his intellectual standing and understanding of the Gemara. He was a rare talmid chochom
As a talmid of RYBS I thank you so much for the compliment. I, and all others wouldn't have known that without you. You must be a very special gaon to be able to make such a wise judgment. And being so great, obviously you are qualified to say that some parts are rather "wild". Wow!
Have you ever considered that your mind is altogether wild?
And before I forget, thank you for proving, as you promised.... that you had learned and know the Avi Ezri.... Yes, my friend, all your posts fit neatly together. After all you have said, the only thing we have learned from you is what we now know about you yourself. Like I said before, the rst is commentary, no go and start learning for a change. Good luck and good Shabbes.
CE
I lost a little bit of respect for you in this discussion.I was not a part of it , though, I came late to the party.
First your swipe against 'Litvishe yeshivas' and your chavrusas there 'repeating their sevoras' and with 'no interest' in their learning partners opinions.Listen a comment like that makes you sound silly(I know you are not silly because we know each other from the net for a long time on different sites)- it's a gross generalization-can happen anywhere AND may be telling us more about your own capabilities than your problems with others.My son goes to a Litvishe yeshiva, is a good learner and a great learning partner, I love learning with him, not because he is my son but rather because he is a very good chavrusa.
About the Rebbes scholarship:I wish you would use better examples than the ones you brought, Rabbi Hirshprung (who was close to Lubavitch)and R'Zinner(much,much younger than r'hirschprung and also close to lubavitch)
Undoubtebly the Rebbe was a brilliant man from very gifted stock-His father and the whole Schneerson line.However, and this is just my opinion, he was not close(in greatness) to such greats as the Ohr Someach for example, just based on their published works.
Though R'Shlomo Zalman was very respectful to the Rebbe and chassidim in general, himself being a scion of the Toldos,I believe his level of learning was on a much higher and mature level.
Now realize this, if you are an ish emmes:The Rebbe had to come out every week with a farbrengen, plus he was a very busy man, not everything was as good as maybe he wanted it to be,HOWEVER, BY CHASIDIM EVERYTHING THE REBBE UTTERED WAS SEEN AS deep, holy etc, and susequently published, in hundreds of volumes, maybe if every word R'Akiva Eiger ever said was published we'd have a similar mix:brilliant and mediocre:I don't know, but as it stands, that is my impression of the Rebbes works:Brilliant, good and mediocre.There have been sichos published that I have asked myself 'why publish this?'it's not on the level you'd expect.
Btw the Rebbes father got semicha from R'Chaim Brisker, not The Brisker Rov(R'VELVEL his son was known as the Brisker rov R'Chaim, though rov of brisk went by R'Chaim brisker)
chell
Many of the The Rebbe's sichos they were not in the level that you would expect,b/c the Rebbe did not try to impress ppl with chiddushim,they were directed to the Ish poshut. These sichos were/ are read by thousands of Ydden that come to a Beis Chabad,
everything depends in the audience
>>But the guy who wrote that the Biur Hgra is not full of Lomdus has shown how little he know about both Lomdus and the Biur Hgra. Who the Gaon would attribute a certain Halach to was the brilliance of the work, not just simply looking up the Bais Yosef and writing his source. In addition, there are numerous other questions and answers, long discussions etc their.
This is why he was not deserving of a response.
>>As a talmid of RYBS I thank you so much for the compliment. I, and all others wouldn't have known that without you. You must be a very special gaon to be able to make such a wise judgment. And being so great, obviously you are qualified to say that some parts are rather "wild". Wow!
Have you ever considered that your mind is altogether wild?
And before I forget, thank you for proving, as you promised.... that you had learned and know the Avi Ezri.... Yes, my friend, all your posts fit neatly together.
I doubt you are a talmid of RYBS. Even if you were, your nonsensical, personal atacks mean absolutely nothing to me. I asked for an email address. I never got one. I was not going to post an entire Avi Ezri on a board full of am horatzim like yourself. I described my impressions--citing particulars point in certain shtiklach to an ACTUAL talmid of RYBS and he agreed. He said that the only indication as to him actually being a Brisker can be found in Iggros HaGrid. It is clear you never went through the Torah I went through, otherwise you would agree with me. The go start leaning for a change line is appalling and shows how little you care for truth. YOu would have to die again to even begin to appraoch how much I learned in this life.
And I hope you do.
>>even knowing that the Rebbe was for far the greatest TC of the generation according to Many Gedolim, now thay have doubts
who cares? it was always the same story
Loiser, this was the point of the entire thread! Idiotic, unqualified and untrue statements like these makes your Rebbe look like an idiot. Stop getting so caught up in superlatives. He was a big man, everyone agrees, that's it
Undoubtebly the Rebbe was a brilliant man from very gifted stock-His father and the whole Schneerson line.However, and this is just my opinion, he was not close(in greatness) to such greats as the Ohr Someach for example, just based on their published works.
No sane person would disagree. The question was among otheres, like R' Ahron and R' Moshe (etc.) not to mention a certain other RY. The question was whether he was a bar plugtah with them. No one knows, and no one here wants to insult the Rebbe anymore.
RAE is now being compared to the Rebbe? Seriously? We all respect the Rebbe as a great man? But R' Akiva Eiger? Where is the sanity?
Chiel,
I think you misunderstood my comments, but I'll try to make a couple quick points:
1. I never intended to make a blanket statement about Yeshivos or bochurim; I was merely saying that this conversation reminded me of my experience...(and I agree that it was my mazal that I didn’t have the greatest chavrusos in Litvishe yeshiva and that my chavrusa in Chabad was much better).
2. The point is that R’ Hirsprung became close to Lubavitch ONLY BECAUSE he was impressed by the Rebbe’s Torah standing, and I also mentioned the mutual respect between the Rebbe and R’ Moshe, the Rebbe and the Pnei Menachem, the Rebbe and Rav Tzinner (who is a serious talmid chochom), as well as statements that are said to have been made by the Satmar Rov and R’ Hutner – and the lack of any criticism on this level by any contemporary gadol (other than perhaps R’ Shach).
3. As I said, the Rebbe never wrote any sefer. The Rebbe spoke every shabbos and there are hundreds of sichos, of many different types: there are more lomdish and less lomdish, some with more nigla & some that are more slanted to chassidus, some are more anecdotal and less so - as a shliach friend of mine once said, “Not all sichos are impressive to each individual, but there is something for everyone.” If someone learns many sichos they will surely find sichos they will appriciate, even if not every sicha will impress them – yet, that specific “unimpressive” sicha may be quite meaningful to someone else. That said, I generally agree with you on your point.
4. Funny, after I posted it I had some doubts - I wasn’t sure if it was R’ Chaim or the Brisker Rov, but then I forgot to look into it (especially since it was posted already) – thanks for the correction.
IIRC, R'Isser Zalman Weisberg compiled likkutim of lomdus from the Rebbe. I imagine that they're available.
(And I think R' IZW's email address is - or was - izw@cpol.com )
As a williamsburgh boy I recall from my youth in the late 70's that the Satmar Rov (R' Yoel) made 1 comment about the Rebbe Lomdos, that all he knows is the Sdei Chemed baal peh, and I remember a Big Talmed Chochom commenting then does he know at least 1 volume.
Hirshel, I hope your Amharetzim know what Sdei Chemed is all about.
To get a sliver of the Rebbes amkus vs. the whole Tietelbaum cabal just look at the Rebbe 1st Hadran on Rambam, its not your usual hiemishe sugye, but its deeper then deep.
Someone plans on lending it to me soon. I will post my thoughts on it after I go through it.
Daer R Y Lazar
OH, Sure , do it fast I do not know What I am going to do if you do not give your Hashama to the The Rebbe
Al Capone,
What more do I have to write to someone who names himself agter a gangster?
Your personal attacks, spurning the efforts of one interested in learning the Rebbe's Torah is beyong reproach.
R Y Lazar
CV, no attacks. It is a very good thing to learn the Rebbe's Torah
I am just saying that . it just funny, to read someone saying" I will learn this Rebbe's Torah, and then I tell you my thoughts"
it looks like a little gayva that someone who has time to be in a blog ,evaluates the Rebbe
"As a williamsburgh boy I recall from my youth in the late 70's that the Satmar Rov (R' Yoel) made 1 comment about the Rebbe Lomdos, that all he knows is the Sdei Chemed baal peh, and I remember a Big Talmed Chochom commenting then does he know at least 1 volume."
Have you ever seen the Satmar Rav's lomdus, oh please!!!!
>>But the guy who wrote that the Biur Hgra is not full of Lomdus has shown how little he know about both Lomdus and the Biur Hgra. Who the Gaon would attribute a certain Halach to was the brilliance of the work, not just simply looking up the Bais Yosef and writing his source. In addition, there are numerous other questions and answers, long discussions etc their.
This is why he was not deserving of a response.<<
This absurd debate is gettying worse and worse. To summarize very simply: just what is your definition of lomdus?? How would you detect the lamdan-talmid-chochom status of an author? You remind me of a certain rosh yeshivah in Torah Vodaas, where I learned before switching to YU and the Rav zatzal. The bochrim in his sheur once pulled a fast one on him by cutting and pasing a small section in a Rashi (pasting into his gemoro a completely diferent - and irrelevant Rashi). Whe he said the sheus and came to that Rashi he was dumbstruck for a minute, thought very hard, and then kvetcht and squeezed to make that Rashi relevant to the Gemoro. Ingenious pilpul, yes, but a false pilpul shel hevel nonetheless. That is precisely why so many gedolim, including the Gra (and before him the Maharal and the Shalo etc. etc.) opposed the mental acrobatics of pilpul. That is not lomdus, that is not the emes of Torah, but, as said. mental gymnastics.
>>As a talmid of RYBS I thank you so much for the compliment. I, and all others wouldn't have known that without you. You must be a very special gaon to be able to make such a wise judgment. And being so great, obviously you are qualified to say that some parts are rather "wild". Wow!
Have you ever considered that your mind is altogether wild?
And before I forget, thank you for proving, as you promised.... that you had learned and know the Avi Ezri.... Yes, my friend, all your posts fit neatly together.
I doubt you are a talmid of RYBS. Even if you were, your nonsensical, personal atacks mean absolutely nothing to me. I asked for an email address. I never got one. I was not going to post an entire Avi Ezri on a board full of am horatzim like yourself. I described my impressions--citing particulars point in certain shtiklach to an ACTUAL talmid of RYBS and he agreed. He said that the only indication as to him actually being a Brisker can be found in Iggros HaGrid. It is clear you never went through the Torah I went through, otherwise you would agree with me. The go start leaning for a change line is appalling and shows how little you care for truth. YOu would have to die again to even begin to appraoch how much I learned in this life.<<
a)I find it interesting that the only evidence we have for your learning are your claims about it. Ever heard of yehalelucho zorim veloi picho(after all, even a ben chomesh lemikro knows that)?
If you can e-mail a shtikel to an am hooretz like myself, surely you can post it here as well? What's the difference? Surely there might be at least one looking at this blog who would be able to pass judgement? For that matter, I would certainly have to admit your lomdus or shlog-op to retain my own credibility.
b)No less interesting is how easily you get offended when things don't go your way. Is that darkoi shel Toiroh - shoimim cherposom ve'einom meshivim etc.? Clarly you are unaware of the gemoro which explain why Torah is compared to water. It requires more than anything bitul hayesh, and then you have the proof of the true lamdan when his learning leads to even greater humility/
Of course you wil answer that a lamdon like yourself must have a shminis shebishminis, but (1) that is good only for one who knows arithmetic and knows how to calculate sminis shebishminis, and (2) look up what the Gro says about this.
c) Yes indeed, I will never know how much you have learned already (especially if YOU say so without knowing anything about myself). The problem is that your immense learning obviously started and finished with the malach in your mother's womb.
d)What is shocking most of all how nowadays every little gnat decides who is a lamdan and talmid chochom among the assumed gedolei hador. First you went after the Lubavitz Rebbe, then you conceded that the Rav was a talmid chochom but rather wild in his svoros etc.
Whe you will make it that OTHERS (not just yourself as until now, and yet on the internet assered by your own gedoilim and roshei yeshives...) will be recognized as a godol hador we might listen to you, but until then all we are left with is the moshol of chazal of a nincompoop pauper saying of a king that he must be very rich because he has hundreds of dollars.... In your great wisdom you don't even recognize the arrogant presumptuousness of passing judgment on the lomdus of people whose sichois chulin you don't understand and haven't got a clue about! People like you have no connection with Torah or yiras Shomayim, as Chazal alrady ruled that Hashem says of you and them - ein Ani vehu yechoilim lodur!
So whether you like it or not, out of pure concern for your neshomoh and spiritual survival in your present state of spiritual gesisoh, I advise you again and urge you, please, please start learning some Torah! There is yet hope for you regardless of how far you have already farkrochen. Many others became real lomdim though they started at a very late age. May Hashem help you succeed (but don't foget the precondition that He helps only those who first help themselves).
I don't understand the point of these accusations. Are they on the same level of the basic canard in Israel that Chasidim do not learn any Gemara? If you have a specific Torah of the Rebbe in which the lomdus does not appeal to you, present it and let us discuss it.
what's the wishing on others to die? nit shein.I don't like such talk.
I for one see anonomous's comments appalling--the cursing in particular--but, to be honest, pshat has gone too far in making disingenuous, personal insults, too.
Erase both as pshat's clearly calculated, cunning, and vicious personal affronts to a talmid chochom are too much for even an outside--myself--to bear.
Either erase both, or maintain the curses. There is no other way for passive-agressive types like pshat to learn from his mistakes. [Clearly he does not care for the aveiros he is accusing an anonomous talmid chochom of committing, as he is doing, almost to the tee, the very same thing. As such, his comments can only be interpreted as being very disingenuous, and designed only to achieve maximum pain. It is full of transgressions. And he is impliedly cursing the anonomous talmid chochom the entire time, too. In a word, its garbage].
I read through these posts.
Anonomous, stop cursing Pshat like that.
Pshat, your comments are beyond the pale, especially as you clearly don't mean a word you are saying (as you are doing the very thing you are criticizing Anonomous for).
I would add that you VICIOUSLY attacked someone wgi nade a real breakthrough. AFTER apologizing, you just wnt crazy on him. Note how he did not retracy his apology, as he obviously meant it. But you have no right, none whatsoever, to talk to ANYONE like that--let alone to act out with such nastiness and hatred toward someone--calling him names, creating issues that don't exist, etc--on someone who apparently did teshuva.
I am not going to curse you like anonomous did. But I see EXACTLY where he is coming from. Whether he should take it back seems to be contingent on whether you want to ask him for mechila. Until then, you demonstrate that you have some serious anger managment issues and perhaps deeper psychological issues to deal with. I have never seen anyone act so unreasonably and with such utter spite--and to expect no consequences--with such malicious hypocricy--in my entire life.
You were projecting a lot in your posts. You really have to shape up.
I sympathize with Anonomous completely. Pshat attacked with the meanest insults, just as he was being chozer. Like Amalek, he hates him just to hate him. His is an example of the lowest kind of evil imaginable. I would never condone cursing like his curses (what if it happens, Anon, seriously?), but I think that Pshat was completely unjustified under the circumstances. You owe Anon an apologiy. Anon, if you are good enough, and you see Pshat means it (should he call you, perhaps?), I think you should be chozer--seriously, you never know.
>>Thank you, Mr Anonymous, for revealing so much about yourself - far more than anyone else could. What you wrote before was enough to make some valid judgment about your "scholarship" even though we do not know who you are. Now we get a complete picture of your personality and character.
Hillarious, and what did YOU just expose about your character.
>>Kamo gedoilim divrei chachomim when they said aveiro goireres aveiro. Not only do you show that you are an oived avoido zoroh (for kol hakoi'es ke'ilu oived avoidoh zoroh), but your "lomdus" goes so far that you now exhibit ignorance of something that every ben chomesh lemikro knows, namely that there is an issur de'oraysso to curse any Jew (even a minor, and even an am ho'oretz). [Please have somebody read and translate for you Choshen Mishpot, sect. 27.]So in one shot you violated so many issurim de'oraysso and derabonon. Our respect for you has increased immensely!
Right back at ya, only I would never clothe insults with Torah. You are beyond reproach for being so perverse in your evil compulsion to malign talmidei chachomim.
>>Out of rachmonus for your poor soul, I am willing to forgive you for your sake if you do teshuvoh. I say for your sake, for Chazal have already ruled "shehamekalel mis'hapeches OLOV hakloloh." Nebbech, such a rachmonus on you. And since Hashem says ki loi echpoitz bemois horosho ki im beshuvoi madarkoi vechoyoh, please take that to heart and act upon it immediately before it is too late.
Again, right back at you. Don't you realize that you are writing about yourself?
>>Your writing displays that you are indeed not an "am ho'oretz", but nebbech simply a "boor" (get somebody to translate the Rabeinu Yoinoh on that mishnah to understand the implications).
I don't think you understand what you are saying here. You are beyond your depth even with refernece to this mishna. Once agin, your personal insults yiels me, someone who has been in Rabbonus for a long time, to conclude that you very serious problems.
>>This time I am not telling you to go and learn, because it simply wil not work before you do teshuvoh. So please have rachmonus on yourself and shape up! Vehu Rachum yechaper ovoin veloi yashchis ch"v!!
How generous--and all this to someone who YOU think is pompous.
Pshat, you are teef meshuga. And if you are not, then your lack of conscience and callous disregard for ballei teshuva (like Anonomous here who retracted everything he wrote) is unconscionable.
There is no excuse for your behavior.
Cut it out.
I am appalled with Pshat. Simply disgusting.
Pshat,
You are out of your mind.
It is as though you are so self-absorbed that you fail to recognize the mounds of aveiros you yourself comitted.
Aside from your ridicuolous accusations and insinuations about the people defending anonomous, it is clear that you were over dozens of aveiros before he cursed you, which is arguably assur as you appear to be a rasha.
Clothing your arguments in halacha is particularly evil.
No one said its ok for him to do what he did (I am suggesting he may as you appear to be a rasha--but I only did it now after you responded to the plaints of everyone here with such brazeness); but everyone was appalled by your abusive comments to someone who actually was making good on what he did.
You demonstrate character that is far more coarse than anything you wish to impute to anonomous. You were over more averios than you can even suggest Anonomous committed--AFTER you provoked him! Your evil nature, compounded by your refusal to do teshuva and salvage whatever is possible about your soul leads one to conclude that you enjoy taunting others, that you are throughly evil. For all we know you are not even Jewish--after all (this is your reasoning) the only basis for assuming you are Jewish is your representation as to the same. Your behavior demonstrates you are not a rachomn, bayshon or gomlei chessed. Far from it, you demonstrate the worse, most vil nature I have ever encountered in my entire life. Therfore, I assume you are NOT Jewish. Accordingly, Anonomous did nothing wrong in cursing you.
Unless you demonstrate some existence of an actual Jewish soul and identity, I have no reason to assume you are worth talking to. Clearly, you have no reason cleaning yourself up. If that is the case, how could you expect to censure someone who is obviously better than you (because he did not do what you did).
You are reckless, irresponsible, extremely childish and deeply immature.
>>I stand by (and re-enforce) every word I have written before and now, and
You have nothing to reinfoce, save ridiculous insults and abdicating responsibility every chance you have to redeem yourself.
You are by far the most obtuse commenter and difficult human being I have ever seen on this blog, or any other blog, for that matter.
If you don't see what a raging hytpocrite you are, you really are out of your mind.
Talk about salvaging a soul? Start with yours first, you evil, malicious boor (you are clearly extremely ignorant of the Torah; and your disingenuous use of the Holy Torah demonstrates that you have little regard for what it says as you are violating it in every single one of your posts) and hypocrite--you have plenty there--a lot more than anyone else here.
Hillel,
Excellent taanah:
Please make sure NOT to engage pshat in learning as it is lifnei iver. We have no reason to believe he is Jewish. Non-Jews are not allowed to learn Torah outside the zayin mitzvos.
Be guided accordingly, gentlemen.
PS On second thought, this guy clearly is just a trouble maker trying to abuse everyone here. Just ignore the troll.
I am having way too much trouble keeping up with who is saying what here, or who is who. I still haven't seen one substantive claim against anyones lomdus here.
RYL, keep in mind the opinions on what non Jews are allowed to learn regarding the sheva mitzvos that expand it to include almost all of Torah, by including everything of Agadah or hashkafah, all financial matters etc.
Hirshel Tzig, you must be kvelling for the unprecedented "popularity" of this blog - everyone rushing to watch the fight and throw some more fuel on the fire. But is it worth it for the price to have your website dirtied with the filth of all that nivul peh of garbage and obscenities, of generating hatred and curses??? Is that the chasidus you preach, or the goal you stated "to bring all Yidden closer to yidishkeit"? Tzemach Atlas had a lot of garbage on his site with his paranoid accusations etc., but never ever anything close to what you have. And don't tell me that it is others writing - you are the blog-author and you moderate all comments that appear, thus you are responsible for everything that has appeared here, you enabled all this filth. To quote you - 'es past nit!'You will not find such stuff except maybe on some pornographic sites.
The only way that this may still have some tikun is by literally erasing all the posts, cleansing the blog from this stinking excrement. And this should be done immediately. If I am correct you are celebrating this day as a chag hegeulah of the Lub. Rebbe who had mesirat nefesh for fellow-Jews, so live up to that by acting immediately NOW, and erase, obliterate, destroy the kelipot of all the offensive posts, regardless of who is right or wrong! Please!!!!!
PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIES!!!
I've been moderating these last few days, but hardly reading the content. I totally do not get what the whole back and forth between Pshat and anonymous is, and why they're so upset at each other. That will be corrected tomorrow iy"h. I've been very busy these last few days, as is evident from my lack of commenting on the threads I started.
( I don't think you should compare my site to pornographic ones, please!)
Right, Al.
So when Pshat is having fun, just playing games, just to see other "ppls" reactions, others, too can guage his reaction when they say other things--you know--just to have fun.
To say pshat is creep is an understatement.
When you hit, expect to get hit back. I would add that Pshat deems MIGHTY sensitive for a guy who is just trying to have fun.
Something lomdish for you litvishers:
http://store.kehotonline.com/index.php?stocknumber=HRE-DIVR&deptid=5732&parentid=261&page=1&itemsperpage=10
Thank you lomdish. Anything on Sotah?
out of curiosity, where does Rabbi Yosef Eisman stand in terms of scholarship in Lubavitch world? How is he regarded?
I read through this thread. Pshat--you are crazy, evil, bigoted, and disgusting. Anonomous, you should be chozer. Maybe pshat will apologize.
Pshat is a crook! FEH!!!
Please don't allow writers to attack shoichnei ofor. They were ALL alot greater than any of those available today.
That said, The Satmar Rebbe (the original subject of this article) is undeniably from the greatest alive today. He spends his days in Yeshiva learning. His greatest joy is talking torah with anyone who wants to talk. His closest friend and chavrusa of 40 years is a Klausenberger chossid.
P.S. Hirshel tayere, If you don't understand the tayreh just admit it. Don't attack his delivery style.
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