I was at the Rebbe's Tziyun (Di Ayhel) this Shabbos LiKovod Yud Shvat. I did not have an opportunity to go on Thursday, and it had been a while since I had been there for Shabbos; not that I needed that "excuse" to go for Shabbos either, but it helped for many reasons. In my humble - yet biased - opinion there's no better place on planet earth where to spend Shabbos, UmiKamoh Taimim. There's the fact that you're in the Rebbe's Daled Amos - KiPshutey; where else would you rather be? There's the fact that the Svivah is one of unadulterated Chassidishkeit, where one simply has no choice but to learn, daven and Farbreng with like-minded Chassidim. I say "has no choice," but the truth is once you're there you have no other Rotzon. Sleep is superfluous, as is doing anything else that could be confused with mundane. When you leave for home on Motzoei Shabbos it's like you're re-entering Olam HaZeh.
One more thing you see on a Shabbos like yesterday is that Lubavitch Lebt. All you see is hundreds of Chassidishe Bochurim with their Mashpi'im and Roshei Yeshiva/Menahalim learning, davening and Farbrenging Tzvishen Zich MiToch Ahavas Yisroel. Tayere Bochurim, each and every one of them. For someone who bases his decision on what Lubavitch looks like on the ones that hang around the fast food joints in Crown Heights a sight like this would surely do him good. This is where we need to bring people when we want to "show off," and this would surely do better than showing them the pizza shop five minutes from 770. Some may take pride in the Rebbe's Army, a.k.a. the Shluchim, and don't get me wrong, it's a very impressive army after all. But I prefer the younger army; the Bochurim, the Tmimim who learn and daven and do what's right. In today's day and age that's quite an accomplishment.
133 comments:
Tzig, yet again you proved that your biggest enemy is truth.
is it not a little depressing to spend a Shabbos in a place like this?
I liked this post a lot. It would be helpful to outsiders like me if you would one day expand your idea of "unadulterated chassidishkeit." You seem to imply it hangs on 3 pillars of davening, learning and "Farbrenging Tzvishen Zich MiToch Ahavas Yisroel." Is this indeed the essence of chasidish life?
and you proved to be full of yourself. Since when is what you have to say the truth?
Since the moment Tzig decided that he has to censor verbatim translations of his own sources.
The Kinnus HaTemimim on Thursday night was rather impressive as well.
All I can say to our friend Kofi Annan and his ilk is כאשר תענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ
Tzig, I had the same reaction to bochurim at the first Kinus Tmimim HaOlami, thousands of bochurim sitting in one room. It was the first time I saw this - just bochurim - since before Gimmel Tammuz.
evanston, what else would you suggest?
Why are Lubavitchers prepared to go to any lengths to not address their problem of not having a live rebbe?
The Meshichsten get around that 'awkward' fact by denying it.The Rebbe is alive, but we ado not merit to see him.Yet.
The Antis, to which I believe Herschel belongs,have made the 'Ayhel' the 'best place on earth' 'the daled amos of the Rebbe kipshutey'.So why do they need a real life rebbe, they have it much better.
It's unfortunate that this denial is starting a whole new generation,I really wonder where this whole thing will end..
What is the point of farbrening? What on Earth does it mean?
U N
again, you're imagining things. Whatever you sent never got here.
SatmarTC:
Depressing? ha.
Refuel: In very simple terms: I don't think there's anybody that'll take the Achrayes on himself. You forget that there are no natural heirs, so finding the right person is not so easy.
hershel tell the truth did you hear over there these words : sh"habora yisborech shmo he yochid v"ein yechides kumohe bshim ponim ,vhu lvadoi elokeiu .how many times did you hear the implication not as above
there needs to be a huge footnote here:
"written by a jew who joined Lubavitch when the Rebbe was virtually dead".
I wasn't aware there was a concept of virtual death.
Evanston
I second Guravitzer's question: what else is there to Jewish life other than learning, davening, and Farbrenging? Farbrenging is what strengthens you and gives you the Koach to continue.
Good to see Tzemach is back and up again. Go Tzemach. You're a bit crazy but made some good awareness on your blog. For one thing you can take a Little credit for Tzigs joint.
Now to Tzig. When was it a custom in Lubavitch to spend a Shabbos at the Ohel?? Have we become toiteh Chasidim?
The routines of the Rebbe continue on Just like it was always. If you want to Be with a Live Rebbe and Daven with your Rebbe 7700 is the place.
What you become some morbid cemetary guy??? Besides you know that on Shabbos the Neshomois are NOT to be found at a Bais Hachaim.
shoyn. the crazies are out in full force today.....
Stay in 770, I never asked you to join me. Me going to 770 would make me a morbid masochist trying to inflict pain on myself. Baym Ayhel iz Freilich.
I must say that as a product of non-Khasidishe Yeshivos and a fellow not drawn to kivrei Tzadikim I find this most unsettling and slightly creepy.
What happened to the concept of:
אין עושין נפשות לצדיקים--דבריהם הן הן זכרונם?
Vos volt gifeilt if the same khevra, T'mimim included, had sat in 770, where the man did his work בחיים חיותו and learned some of his Torah from his prolific ouvre?
Just so that you don't take this as an anti-Chabad attack let me state clearly that I similarly don't begin to understand the growing popular obsession with Uman.
The greatest place in the world? Greater than the Kosel? Greater than the Meoras HaMakhpelah? Greater than Babi Yar, Tzfas, Teveriyah, Har HaZesim and Har HaMneukhos? Greater, for that matter, than the Kevorim of the Ba'al HaTanya and the Tzemach Tzedek?
Bray
Ikh hub dir nit Cheyshed geven.
This is not like Uman, it's not the Kivrei Tzadikim aspect that draws people. For many going to the Ohel is a way to get away from 770. For others it's the idea that the Rebbe is here. It may be a Dakis'dike Chiluk, but I believe you can see it.
I simply said it was the best place to spend a Shabbos, nothing more.I'm sorry if you inferred that it was the holiest place. I'm not getting into that now.
tzig, I second your emotions. I would even say that the atmosphere at the eihel on shabbos is like that of 770 many-many years ago... Also agree on the bochurim. These guys are better than the best bochurim from my times.
I don't think there's anybody that'll take the Achrayes on himself.
Question: If someone would take on the akhrayis, would the Chabad Oilim accept him or has the very position of Lubavitcher Rebbe died along with the 7th title-holder z"l?
Breslov has not been totaly without leadership since Rav Nachman's histalkus. My impression is that prior to the 1960s it was not even a very splintered leadership. (Today with the Schick-niks, the Kenig-niks and the Na-Nach-Nach guys it is a VERY different story). Yet they NEVER, in all these years, have found another REBBE-supreme unifying-of-all-factions-filling-traditional-rebbisha-roles/functions Leader. Might/has something similar develop(ed) in Chabad?
Tzig, You're just as bad and as guilty as all those who answer irrationally when attacking Chabad.
you give the fuel with the WAY you responded for all those who make choizek of Chabad , period.
What did I say to deserve -- so you stay in 770.
Can't you answer with sechel to my points???
When I listen to a tape of my Roshashiva z"l or when I learn from his s'forim I feel connected to him and can picture him saying the Torah (more so in a tape than when learning the sefer).
I have never been to his kever.
may I ask who your R"Y was?
I've had many. But the one I'm referring to, the one I feel (to use the local idiom) mekushar to was a man recently lambasted on this blog.
oh, sorry. I thought I knew you were a CBer. Anyway, in Chassidism Hishtatchus is important. Had your Rebbe been a chossid maybe you would have made the trip.
so let's say there is an oasis. I know the emotions very well. Great! But there is nothing like that where I live, in Brooklyn or elsewhere. What does it say about the grand plan of the one who resides over there?
chuchummayuoimer,
A Jew expressed some feelings of hiseirerus (without insulting any one else, mind you), and all you can do is carry on about "toiteh Chasidim" and call him a "morbid cemetary guy"... And then you get all upset when he tells you to stay where you are? What kind of putrefying creature are you?
On the other hand, you nick reminds one and all that there is no point in talking to you; after all, you are what you say...
I think that I posed some good questions @ 11:57. Would anyone care to adress them? There are more Chabadniks reading and posting here than just the Ba'al HaBlog.
Nu?! Keiner Hut Nit Vos tzuleigen?
Had your Rebbe been a chossid maybe you would have made the trip.
While it's true that he was no chossid he was a "professional" talmid. And gevalt was he a Rebbe. Not only a Rebbe but Rebbish. Even a Ba'al Mofes in the Kotzker sense.
Sorry, Bray
I meant to say had you been a Chossid of a Chassidisher Rebbe.
tzig,
Shameful is the day on which you find it necessary to censor your own rebbe's words.
well, I guess today's not that day.
u'n'
What censorship are you alleging? Inquiring minds need to know!
HT-
sent you an email. Please check there.
Berl, you were an ass and you always will be one. If not for your arrogant attitude you would be a drained out shriveled up balloon.
I asked and included myself, "Have WE become toiteh Chasidim" I still include even those I disagree with as one of my people- How about you?.
my question have you become some morbid cemetary guy was #1, asked in jest ( a problem with only reading the written word) #2, attacked no one personally and conclusivly.
Why don't you read over your own comment and see how it seethes with hatred for another chossid.
Shame on you.
I see Tzig was able to find time to answer the other heimishe comments but not anash (anshei shelomo - unless off course you don't consider me so, which is even a bigger problem).
since when was it a custom in Chabad to spend Yomim Toivim at a cemetary?
and where in the Rebbes sichois does it indicate such is the practice for a Chossid.
I can find you countless places where it says the (Frierdike Rebbe) is in 770 and that's where to find the Rebbe.
Can you please answer.
since when is it a Chabad custom to not have a living Rebbe? Isn't that why the Rebbe accepted the Nesius?
Hey,
I love the post. i have never been zoche to be at the ohel for shabbos (for obvious reasons!) but it's good to hear something positive about Lubavitch for a change. that the good old chassidishkeit is still around, and we're not running after a false dream.
And it's good to hear that there's a Rebbetzin out there who appreciates good old fashioned Chassidishkeit.
chuchummayuoimer, "Arrogant attitude"? Moron, you are the one that came in here to criticize for no reason at all. You are the one asking all kinds of stupid questions in a tone that makes it sound as though someone was trying to convince you to spend a shabbos at the eihel. Ever heard of 'live and let live'? What is it that burns you up that another Jew was inspired by something that you do not do? Still, I do not hate you. I find you revolting, to be sure. But I do not hate you. As to "anash", let's be honest - there is a split and there are now, in fact, a few different 'anash'. Which is fine.
>>we're not running after a false dream.
CAN YOU ELABORATE?
Guravitzer...you ask what else I would suggest. I guess I was suprised to see farbrenging tzvishen sich as way up there in the hierarchy of values. It is far from obvious, at least to me. Litvish yeshiva people, though they certainly hang out and party with each other as much as anyone, would not, I think, describe farbrenging as such as a value. They would say it's a simcha or a seudas mitzvah. And I also think that in pre chassidic times hithboddus, being alone with all that implies was an important value. It certainly is an American Protestant/secular Jewish value, the best example being the value placed on the reading of fiction and poetry in isolation. I even doubt that Satmar/ Belz people would list farbrenging as #3; I think they might say something about being/dressing chassidish and tzniusdig. And finally there is the classical triad of torah, avodah and gemilus chasadim.
Are there sources in non Lubavitch chassidic literature that also stress the great value in farbrenging as giving a person koach to continue? I ask out of ignorance.
Btw, the reason I did not answer your questions is very simple: I do not have any problem with you being of the opinion that eihel is not the place to be on shabbos. Nor do I want to change your mind on this. What I do want is for you to leave other people – those that do hold of going to the eihel on shabbos – alone. Oh yes, almost forgot, these people learned all the sicheis you learned and you can safely assume that they resolved the 'thorny' issues you raised for themselves in a satisfactory manner.
The Bray - I asked tzig whether my translation of interesting three pages in hithwaduyoth was "adequate" or maybe I was mangling the translation by taking them out of context or otherwise. Tzig says he never received the comment in the first place. Go figure.
I never did receive it. Send it again.
I resent the fact that you're accusing me of censoring and then lying. Kol HaPeysel BeMumey Peysel. I'm glad you see that as an important project though, the translation of the Rebbe's Sicheys. Hatzlochoh Rabboh BeAveydas HaKeydesh.
Tzemach, I am glad to see that you have developed beyond the ability to state "moron" in isolation. May you continue to grow to one day be able to wish us soft bread and hard butter. After all, we aren't druye, what do we count for?
Evanston, keep in mind that the ideas of Chasidus are on top of those of Yiddishkeit, the basics are the same - Torah, avodah and gemach. The ideas added of Chasidus are to be mechazek those fundamentals (as the Rebbe put them, ahavas hashem, ahavas hatorah and ahavas yisroel). One of the basics of Chabad Chasidus is that we need and use each other to be truthful to ourselves, a farbrengen is when we try to tell each other the truth. It can be a truth such as Ein Od Milvado - not just learning it, but knowing and feeling it - or a truth such as you aren't giving enough Tzedakah.
A classic story is of the Litvishe kid in Yerushalayim who wandered into a farbrengen in Toras Emes and heard the mashpia say "Why don't you daven, no one davens here!" and walked out saying that in Lubavitch the bochurim literally don't daven. He was exorting them to daven appropriately, implying that not advancing in avodas hatefilah is to not advance at all.
I have been told things about myself and have told others things at a farbrengen about them that would probably make your hair stand on end, that you wouldn't dream of telling your best and closest friend although true, and then hugged and kissed, said lechaim, and hopefully went on to change it.
I have sat with a mashpia who explained sovev kol almin all night. I have sat with friends and told chasidishe stories all night. I have sat, especially immediately after Gimmel Tammuz, and held the equivalent of an Irish wake all night. I have sat when a group of chasidim decided that one of them is the target for that night and - truthfully - took him to pieces, and left him beaming with pleasure at the zchus. I have sat with a mashpia all night while he begged everyone around the table to take on one thing about themselves that they will utterly change in one year. I have even sat with a chasidishe baal nigleh who begged everyone to learn an amud of gemara a day. A farbrengen can be anything holy, and is therefore everything.
And a fabrengen with the Rebbe was to be in the presence of Shechina medaberes mitcoh grono. And we try to recapture some of that every time we sit down to farbreng.
why are you ashamed of the REAL lubavitch?
I'd like to add one point:
Not to detract from the amazing experience at the ohel etc. but bochurem, farbrengens of the same caliber can be found in 770 on shabbos.
Yes the vilde chevrah can be found there, but so can minyanom of bochurim davenin b'avodah, farbrengens etc. Come one time and I'll show you were to look.
:-)
Yechi-
Can't speak for Tzig but if "REAL" means believing that a dead Tzadik z"l is alive and/or that said dead Tzadik z"l is/was/has become part of the G-dhead kholila, then I, as a frum Jew, albeit a non-Chabad one, AM ashamed.
Tzig, see, I gave you benefit of a doubt for the fourth time, and you keep maintaining silence of the dead. So to be fair to everyone, I'll have to publish this "kompromat" you insist on censoring (which is nothing but verbatim translation of your sources) in a different medium, and you will lose the only advantage of being able to maybe put a positive spin on it.
Khaver
stop trusting yourself, and figure out what you're doing wrong. I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY TRANSLATIONS ETC. FROM YOU.
You need to stop with the paranoia. This is America, we don't do things like that.
Tzig, I too happened to be at the ohel this past Shabbos, and echo your sentimentss entirely. 8:00am and the place was packed with bochrim and yungerlite learning chassidus, a fargenigen tzu zehn.
Now I just have to work out which of those chevra I farbrenged with was you ;)
I'm a chused ben chused but never got the Rebbes obsession with going to the cemetry for hours.For me that was a turn off
Very well - and for the fifth time - i'll give you benefit of the doubt that you've lost it four times no less, and will try to ask you again. Going over this holy text of texts, I'd like to you to disagree or validate the following "tamtzis" before trying to get to the actual point. Main excerpts :
1. Ahavas Yisroel veAchdus Yisroel aren't shayach "beinyan zeh" (we're talking about evil Satmars or just simple R' Sender Deutsch)
2. One should not enter their [Satmar's ? R' Sender's?] shuls as they are are a mokom sakona - dangerous place - and one isn't allowed to enter a mokom sakana (that's said after sending off scores of people to Soviet Union, Poland in 1939, Kinshasa, Tunis and other safe places)
3. "We should all forget from these happenings and instead concentrate on the holy inyoney ku"t mitokh ahavas Yisroel and achdus Yisroel" - the very opposite behaviour of these who would like to bring the "maztav shel rugzah" - a state of Anger - between Jews and hkb"H, and amongst the Jews themselves, which is the total opposite of the inyan of Ahavas Yisroel ... as according to Ramak, A"Y means loving even the reshoim as if they were one's brothers and even more so. And by _them_ it's the opposite - light turnes into darkness - heipach Ahavas Yisroel to yehudim yireim ushleimim roshei yeshivos tzadikim rebiim ukhu' chutz meoysom melakchey pinchah" .
4. "None of these words about Ahavas Yisroel applies to them ["Satmars" ? R' Sender Deutsch z"l?] : (these people are amongst those who're) Pokar Tfei (loshon Gemora used when stating that Apikoires Yisroel is worse then Apikoires Aku"m); people such as us shouldn't have any mag'a ukesher with them, and it's not our shlichus to turn them back (lehachzirom) to the good; but let the Ba'al haKerem come and worry about it.
5. In Siman Mem, about the gentleman ("mechutzaf" in the words of mechaber) who referred to the party of Siyum Rambam with a word "festival" :
"Such behavior is a chutzpah that hasn't ever had precedent. Even Yevsektsiya in the Communist Russia that fought against Judaism didn't have chutzpah like this".
"Not just that, but he wastes public money to print his words and publicize them in every place hoping that perhaps he'll stop one Jew from learning Rambam"
Now this is a baffling paragraph :
"Mitzva goreres mitzvah and from the "mitzvah" of leitzanus over Rambam study our mechutzaf goes on to make leitzanus from Mayim Achronim ..."
(There is no way R' Sender Deutsch, or anyone of Heimishe upbringing, would make leitzanus from Mayim Achronim; I don't know what was said but it sure sounds strange).
Further interesting paragraph :
"As said, such chutzpah to make leitzanus from inyonei kedusha, whether it's limud Rambam or Mayim Achronim, didn't exist even in Communist Russian Yevsektsiya , nor amongst the Nazis ym"sh (!), from whom he (our mechutzaf) only got saved through miracle. And for what is he menatzel the miracle that haKB"H made with him to make leitzanus from inyoney kedusha, R"L ".
It appears that the love in paragraphs 1-4 is directed towards someone in Williamsburg - Tzig says it's just R' Sender Deutsch and probably those who were on the case of Wechter's gang. And paragraph 5 is about the Ponevezhe Rebbe. All these people are now dead to varous degrees.
Would you say that the translation is adequate and isn't ripping sentences out of context to the extent where sense is changed ?
Could it have something to do with being childless?
If you can't connect with Nitzkhiyus through those living who will outlive you then perhaps you connect with Nitzkhiyus through those no longer living whom you will outlive.
did the Frierdiker Rebbe z"l also spend hours at the fehld?
The FR was wheelchair bound just about the whole time in America; he didn't stand at the Feld for hours. The Rebbe would stand and read Tzetlach/Kvitlach/Panim, and say Maaneh Loshon. Poshut Geredt: He was davening for Klal Yisroel.
What is/are panim?
Panim = plural of Pan = פ"נ = פדיון נפש
= a letter you hand the Rebbe with names and requests so that he daven for you and yours.
How does it differ form a kvitel? I thought you give a pidyon (monetary contribution) when/before you hand in a kvitel?
How does it differ form a kvitel? I thought you give a pidyon (monetary contribution) when/before you hand in a kvitel?
Same thing different terminology. The only difference is that in Chabad you didn't give the Rebbe money with your Pidyon.
The Rebbeim all had a history of traveling to the the kvarim of their forebearers. The Rebbe Rashab went to the tziyun of his father and grandfather on many occasions, and before opening the Yeshivah went to the kvarim of all the Rebbeim, the Ba'al Shem tov etc (I don't remember the number of times, though I'm sure someone could look it up).
The FR, after banishment from the Soviet Union went to Eretz Yisroel because he couldn't visit the Ohel of his father!
Chuchummayuoimer,
You’re contemptuous tone of questioning isn’t really befitting a response but l’tovas the other readers I’ll do so anyway. L’hotzie mi’libon shel…
“When was it a custom in Lubavitch to spend a Shabbos at the Ohel??" "since when was it a custom in Chabad to spend Yomim Toivim at a cemetary?”
The Frierdikeh Rebbe records exactly such a Minhag in Sefer Hasichos תש''ה p.23
"מורי החסיד הרשב''ץ היה נוהג ללכת למשך כל יהכ''פ לאוהל בליובאוויטש, לפני הליכתו בערב יהכ''פ היה נוהג...להיכנס אל כ''ק אאדמו''ר הרה''ק, שהיה מוסר לו – בע''פ ולא בכתב – כמה מילים [למסור] באהל. שם באהל היה מנין בשבת וביו''ט ובחיי הוד כ''ק אאזמו''ר הרה''ק מוהר''ש היה שם מנין גם בימות החול."
“Have we become toiteh Chasidim?”
Perhaps you have if you see ones עלי' להציון הק' for a Shabbos of inspiration in such a manner. What are you, a מצרי? While you’re at it, care to explain why going to the Ohel on say, Tuesday doesn’t make you a ‘toiteh chossid’, but doing so on Shabbos does?
The Bray of Fundie,
“What happened to the concept of:
אין עושין נפשות לצדיקים--דבריהם הן הן זכרונם?”
Valid question, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Teshuvah of the Minchas Elazar [Shut 3:37]
“When I listen to a tape of my Roshashiva z"l or when I learn from his s'forim I feel connected to him and can picture him saying the Torah (more so in a tape than when learning the sefer).
I have never been to his kever.”
As they would say in Chassidishe jargon you are Mekushar to his Chabad but not to his Yechida
”did the Frierdiker Rebbe z"l also spend hours at the fehld?”
He was on the run or physically limited most of the time as Tzig pointed out. But he did once say about his father: האָט ער מיר געזאָגט: שוין צען יאָר אַז איך טראַכט וועגן דעם און געוואַלגערט זיך באַ דעם זיידן און באַ דעם טאַטן
Sounds like quality time was spent there…
Guravitzer
is there any web site with Farbrengens schedules (time, location)? I got very inspire with your post and wish to attend
Tzig
I got inspired also with your post, and I can't even imagine the G'dly energy that you experienced this past Shabbos at the Ohel
But my question is : all these bochrim and mashpyim, and RY, etc, how do the feel over there in Shaboos. Do they miss the Rebbe b'gashmius, do they cry? Is this appropiate for Shabbos?
Tzemach
welcome back We missed you a lot
Hey Aizel guy, maybe the donkey you're driving is making your brain slow down.
The fact that the Frierdikeh Rebbe talks of his teacher doing a unique practice and that a minyan was there on shabbos and Yom tov as a side issue didn't drive the Rebbe to make a mivtza out of it.
Some guys are REALLY strange. You can show them from Maaseh Rav of a lifetime and bring them tons of quotes but that one quote that suits them all of a sudden disqualifies and cancels everythintg else and now this becomes the Torah Mesinai outweighing everything else.
If being at the Ohel for a Shabbos and Yom Tov is so important How come the Rebbe never made a deal about it. How come it was never done for the last 40 50 years and even in Europe the Rabbeim never made a pilgrimage from it??
How come there are thousands of times where the Rebbe said of the Bachayim of 770 regarding the Frierdikeh Rebbe??
Going to the Ohel certainly has its place and no one needs convincing of that. But to make what has become a pilgrimage every yoimeh depagreh is an escape from the presence of the Rebbe that continues in his shul and where he continues to daven all the time.
and Tzig, why when someone make a point that seems similar to the Meshichists to you so quicky assume he is a Moshichist? You're no better than everyone else who does the same thing.
So Tzigenyu, would you confirm or deny that the term "mechutzaf" mentioned above geyt aroyf oyfn Paneveziser Reis-jesive OB"M ?
I Happen to agree. You cant bring stories of unique individual to prove your point. All the more so when there are meny questions regarding Halcha (although there are some well respected Rabbonim that go there on Shabbos, therefore who am i? nevertheless there does seem to be some issues regarding Cemeteries on Shabbos, why enter into this problem?) and of course when you have a few or more Sichos for the Rebbe clearly contrary to this belief, and we see how he acted during hes liftime who are we to start new practices? Tzig if it helped you in Avodas Hashem then may Hashem bless you...
Guravitzer...I want to thank you for going out of your way to describe what transpires at a farbrengen in such vivid colors. I am still digesting what you said. I have some additional follow up questions and comments, but it is off topic to the original post and hopefully there will be other opportunities.
וכמאמר החכם א קאפ קען מען ניט ארוף שטעלען
א רחמנות אף דיין נשמה
satmar, your nearest Heichal Menachem is probably your best source of fabrengens.
Tzig and bray, we would give a pan (which does refer to the money) in a separate envelope when we gave the kvitel (which confusingly we titled pa"n) to the Rebbe. This was done primarily so that the secretaries could deal with the money envelopes, as the Rebbe would not let anyone else handle his actual correspondence.
yechiel, do you have any idea what the Rebbe did there for hours and hours?
R' Hirshel
In chabad we don't give money with the pan? kimdumani borur that when we would give a pan, as opposed to a letter, we would give money and befeirush write d'mei pan and the amount.
Yes, I realize my mistake. I confused Pan with Tzetel.
U N
I need to go back and check out the Sichah. Hopefully later tonight I'll have an answer for you as to whom the Rebbe meant.
By a Pan Chassidim didn't give money also??? When did you join Lubavitch. You never heard of Dmei Pan??? It's true that the money wasn't handed in togethter with the Pan rather it was put somewhere right before (depending on which Tekufa-diffrent places). For a while it was in the room which used to be Ezras Nashim and then there was a box on the side. But definitley there was Dmei Pan.
חטאתי עויתי פשעתי
and I apologized above. My Panim were as a Bochur and the last one was 14 years ago.... I guess I forgot. By Yechidus people gave the Rebbe money? I don't think so, that's what I was referring to.
Heh, this is how all these things are done. People who never were there in the first place are usually the ones to document and beat their hairy chests ...
evanston, I don't think Tzig minds going off topic. In fact, I have seen him encourage it. But he can tell us himself.
what is the סדר היום of שבת in the ohel? Do you stay in the habad house adjacent to the grave all day or do you go to the graveside itself? How are there accommodations for so many Hasidim? Is there a formalized תפילה at the graveside of the Rebbe? Is there any special מנהגי תפילה or special מנהגים of the seudah that are followed? How does one avoid the problem of being מבקש לצרכיו on שבת or is this viewed as ok? Or do you leave requests for זרענו וכספינו on מוצ'ש? Finally, how is the food? And who supports having what seems like a שבת hotel in a cemetery-- do you have to pay a fee for שבת?
hope this is not too much to ask, but as a non Lubavitcher I am really curious as to what they actually do there!
U.N.
I don't think the Tzig will be able to handle your translations of something that sounds very much like 'hepech taiv'
Next thing you know he''ll be crying about somebody sending him nasty e-mails.
Wonder who the paranoid one is.
Once upon a time I thought that Lubavitch counted as an opinion worthy of debating to show them were they took the 'wrong turn'.Now it seems we are debating feeble minded idiots!On the one hand a (big)bunch of crazies that say the Rebbe is alive and on the other side a bunch of crazies that spend shabbosen in a cemetry.Go figure.Help Now!!
i wish i would see what you see. But I see all lies.
U N
Oh! you mean like young men complaining about what certain people did in Russia 80+ years ago? That they ruined it for everybody? Are those the people that you're complaining about?
Good. Just checking.
Tzig, will you enlighten us about the evil mechutzafim who aren't bikhlal ahavas Yisroel ?
I read the Shtikkel Sichah again. It could be that it was talking about the late great Ponevezher Reis Jesive OB"M (as you put it.)
So now what?
Spending Shabbos and Yom Tov in a cemertey seems to be VERY strange.
AFAIK preferably one doesn't go to a cemetery on days when tachnanun is not said.
The Ohel is not a cemetery. Yes, there are graves around the Rebbe's Tziyun, but the Ohel is not a cemetery. That's why Kohanim are allowed there, although they're fenced off around the other graves.
Why not ask the hundreds of people at Meron every Shabbos what they're doing in a "cemetery."
I know, I know, the Rebbe is not Rashbi. The point is the same.
As far is 'going to the cemetery' goes, it is not what it sounds like - all actual cemetery parts are fenced off with mechitzeis. That includes even the inside of the eihel itself (it is fenced off from the outside with stone walls, no roof; inside there is another wall around the actual graves - thus people that stand there are not in the cemetery. It was built this way for keihanim). Despite all that, I have not seen people enter that part of the eihel on shabbos (kreias hateiroh is in the adjacent room where the candles are lit).
the people who go to the cemetary on Shabbos are fringe problematic people who would stay in Bais Rivka over Shabbos if they could find a way of making it look good.
c'mon can't you see that the only reason their there is just to create rift within.
asher chairfu ikvois Meshichecho
Valid question, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Teshuvah of the Minchas Elazar [Shut 3:37]
I'm unfamiliar and do not own the sefer so please write the tamtzis and enlighten me.
For all those of you who are attacking going to the ohel - your questions show your unfamiliarity with the concept.
some of you ask questions respectfully, aware of your ignorance.
Others are so quick to put it all down. have you ever considered that there is something you don't understand?
And that not everything has a source on a specific page in shulchan aruch.
And BTW, do Lubavitcher still give money? do you write "pan" on top of a letter? what's the difference between a pan and a letter?
Yerushalmi Trumos דף ב,א פרק א הלכה א deals with halochos of sleeping over at cemeteries and all such things.
About the "shtikkelech sichah" - while the picture of two old Russians hurling insults at each other is all too familiar to me, I find Mykolayever's assertion that Ponevezher Rosh Yeshiva's chutzpah is worse then Nazis' and Yevsektsiya's to be somewhat, well, not very consistent with the general image that most hagiographers would like everyone to believe. The fact that such statements goes into a volume that's dubbed as "Torah shebeal peh of Chassidus" doesn't make it better.
But the first four shtikkelech - do you maintain, after reading them, that it's strictly applicable to poor R' Sender Deutsch ? Is it a common practice is your brand chassidus to insist on "loving every Jew", including the worst fornicating idolaterous atheists - and yet scream at the top of ones lungs how the evil satmars are NOT bikhlal "Ahavas Yisroel" and basically should be treated worse then either gentiles or apikorsei Yisroel ?
Moreover, should all those dudes with 770 on their talis-beitelekh davening in that shul on Monsey Boulevard to be violating the very explicit words of their leader ? Do you maintain that the spirit of these pages of "Torah She Bealpe of Chassidus" is takeh takeh what the Alter Rebbe meant; and that the unmitigated hatered and venom expressed here is what you were looking for when you bailed on Spinka ?
1) You never spent time in Spinka, I can say that now with certainty.
2) The sleeping is done outside the cemetery, in the adjoining houses or blocks away.
3) Reb Sender's venomous articles are known to all, maybe not to you. Schneur can back me up on that, as can anybody over 30 who read Der Yid. I appreciate the fact that he brought Lieber's chocolate to Russia, but what he did was hurtful to many Jews and totally unprovoked. Nobody attacked Satmar in their papers, THEY HAD NONE! Yet he had a free hand to laugh at anybody he didn't agree with. He would use derogatory terms, not just respectfully disagree. If the Rebbe spoke about him like that Kumt zich em, Even if Gershon Jacobson was his buddy.
4) Fornicating adulterers. Converts. Zionists. Satmar philanderers. They're all to be loved. Even you. That's why I allow you to spew your crap here; all in the spirit of the Alter Rebbe VeHaNesi'im Acharov.
5) I have yet to Daven in the new abode on Monsey Blvd. Now that you mention it I'll have to ask our Rov if I'm allowed.... (I have been to the old one on W Maple)
Happy Tu BiShvat by the way.
tzig, I know exactly the type of material that was and occasionally still is published in der yid. I believe that R' Sender didn't suck up to the subjects of his articles as much as you'd like him too (whether he was right is a different story). But R' Sender Deutsch isn't a neshoma-deatzilus-rebbe-fun-alle-yiden and der yid isn't a Torah SheBealPe of Chassidus - Der Yid didn't and doesn't have much respect even in the Williamsburger circles where it is read; the name is mentioned with a chuckle and nobody frankly cares what Reb Sender wrote thirty years go, abut Clujer, Bilgoraier or Mykolayever. It's not a chidush that Der Yid's words were hurtful to a host of people - zionists, mizrachists, who knows who else; but nobody elevated Der Yid to status higher then what it always was - a rag (even though the "unprovoked" claim of yours is totally false; it was very much provoked and a long-standing rift).
But the "words" here aren't about him or der Yid at all. Reb Sender didn't have a shul; the writeup here is all done beloshon rabim and is directed as, what appears to be, the entire frum Jewry (not even necessarily confined to Satmar) that doesn't subscribe to the questionable methods of the baal-hamisva'ade. They way it teitches itself up is that unless you welcome Wechter yim"sh style proselityzing shmad, where the neshomos are converted tzig-style, they are basically counted out of the "to-be-loved" list.
You may try to pour some sugar into that pus how they're all to be loved; that ain't what the words say. I am sure that you love a "satmar philanderer"; you and your ilk seem to have a fetish for those and a reoccuring theme in most conversations are these stories, made up or not, of naughty williamsburgers going places and doing things. You are addicted to filth of this sorts and will be sure to find them like a pig finds truffles.
But אגלאי מילתא למפרע that all the talk about Ahavas Yisroel is just empty words that can be disregarded when not useful, and the real face behind all this is, well, not much nicer then der yid's worst pile of dirt. The same leshoinos that "Kanoim" use are used ; the only difference is that while Kanoim use them against Oivrei Retzono Lehakhis , this source here uses them against those he doesn't like and who don't like his methods, on that basis solely. Basically, all the terms used in this paper fly both ways; and nothing is more farcical then the conclusion to "forget about all these things" while pounding on and on how nobody should God forbid have any "mag'a vekesher imohem". Anybody who wants to have an informed opinion should read the few paragraphs and only then form it, as this is a rare opportunity to have an unadulterated look.
And back to the Paneveziser Reis-Jesiva - one called another Mechutzaf worse then Nazis, another called him Moshiach Sheker; both did it in writing, I think; what ta'ana can one have to either one's worshippers to be consistent with the objects of their worship ?
1) I have no ilk.
2) Der Yid's status only changed recently, until then it was Kodesh Kodoshim as far as rags go, the only "Torah-true" newspaper that Jews were allowed to bring home, and the one that told us all the Daas Teyreh of the day. Nice "sugar-coat" job by you there.
3) I only mentioned Satmarer twice, and only when you brought up Lubavitcher indiscretions.
4) Gei Fargleich the two... Tell me, were you the subject of such "Ahavas Yisroel" that you condemn it so?
Bray,
http://hebrewbooks.org/root/data/pdfs/SHUT/minchateluzar3.pdf
it's the 72nd page of the pdf.
U N
I was just alerted to words in your last comment, where you call Mendel Wechter "Yims"h." Afroh LePumeych is all I can say. You're a miserable creature who had no "Groyse Zeides."
The time I first heard of Der Yid's existance, back in the early nineties, it was already a dovor-acher, paper that was better then others but still a lowly rag.
3. God forbid me mentioning Lubavitcher indiscretions. I have nothing but good to say about essentially every individual L' that I know personally, and that comprises a huge segment of people that I know personally in general. The biggest [conscious] indiscretion that I can think of is total disregard to k"sh, but that's a different opera.
4. I care for Paneveziser Reis Jesiva as much as for his bar plugta. May they share a room in the Hotel Upstairs.
In general all people, even groisse mentschen, are entitled to speak their opinions openly and that's not the problem here. The problem is that while accusing poor objects of this writeup of being "mevie rugzah" and other insinuations, the author himself isn't a great melamed zechus here.
Hang on there :
IF someone who call Mendel Wechter, one Satmarer who for abissele kovod went out and turned on the moladetoi - is a miserable creature without groyse zeides and an afra-lepumey
THEN
someone who calls ALL "Satmarers" + the Ponevezher Roish Yeshiva with names much worse then a "yimach Shemo" - " worse then Nazies" comes to mind - what is he and what kind of Zeides would you like to take out of his yichus ?
Face it, Mendel Vechter sold his soul, and so have you. Moreover, if I said "Shach yim"sh" or "Deutsch yim"sh" you'd say "amein veamein" - as you and your ilk do all the time. So you're a two-faced lying traitor who has no guts and no backbone, and any insult hurled by your filthy lying fingers is a praise.
Josh said...
what is the סדר היום of שבת in the ohel?
It is posted in the hallway of the house adjacent to the Ohel. Regular schedule, Mincha-Kabbalas Shabbos, meal, (Tehillim) Chasidus Shacharis meal, mincha chasidus maariv havdalah.
Do you stay in the habad house adjacent to the grave all day or do you go to the graveside itself?
There is davening at the Ohel itself, otherwise all inside.
How are there accommodations for so many Hasidim?
about 8 houses around the cemetery have been purchased by now, and mattresses are spread out when needed.
Is there a formalized תפילה at the graveside of the Rebbe?
Yes, for all the Tefilos of Shabbos. Not right inside, but in the hallway leading to it.
Is there any special מנהגי תפילה or special מנהגים of the seudah that are followed?
Only the same minhogim that had been followed by the Rebbe.
How does one avoid the problem of being מבקש לצרכיו on שבת or is this viewed as ok?
Only regular davening is said, not bakoshos, pa"n or maane loshon.
Finally, how is the food? And who supports having what seems like a שבת hotel in a cemetery-- do you have to pay a fee for שבת?
The food is good and well organized, and it is sponsored by caring donors. Most people who spend Shabbos leave a donation as well.
its all farflucked. all of it.
I am number 100 in the comments... do i get a prize??? a free hat from tzemach??? oolai yerachem??? pplease>?
U.N.
I have to be 'moicheh' on the words you used about Mendel Vechter.You are allowing yourself to stoop to the level of Lubavitchers.I am against use of this term towards any Jew,but much more so towards a Jew ,who is nebach, farchapt.He means well, but ,yes that is no excuse for what he did, turning young kids against their parents.
Basically, I agree with your gist, especially your showing that Ahavas Yisroel al pi nusach Chabad applies ONLY to frei yidden or other frummeh who are their friends.
I'm perplexed at what you have against the Ponovizher Rosh Yeshiva:Basically he was the only non Satmarite to call it as he saw it.Today his words ring truer than ever.
And to you my dear Tzig,
I''ll understand if you decide not to publish this.I've tried to be 'politically correct' but am quite sure you''ll not like the implication too much
The stangest thing I saw when I visited the Ohel were the requests to take off your leather shoes and knock on the door of the tomb.
I thought it was a bit wacky
Gersh
Isn't Miron the most popular place for shabos hisvadous for every chasideshe yeshiva in Israel?
UN
Talking about kovod for Vechter? he would be by today the Rosh in Zalis Yeshiva in Queens the Lepkes & Yakobowich families went gaga for the guy.
anonymous
I'd give you the prize, it's just that I hate people who use "anonymous" after asking about 100 times not to.
The comments about Vechter both from the Natchalnik of the NKVD and the next Khokhem Stratsinayeh show how they're Johnny come latelies, both of them, knowledge of Monsey notwithstanding. Mendel Vechter gave up Koved; He gave it up because he was searching for Emes, something he felt was lacking. He found what his soul needed in Chassidus and in the Rebbe. He could have been a big Rosh Yeshivah in Satmar today had he stayed there. I realize that's beyond what you're capable of understanding, so I'll cut you some slack.
None of the parents of the Bokherim you're so concerned about using that language when referring to him, and may have the only Nachas from those children.
Tzig and stratsinaye,
I don't routinely use that language towards Wechter. Actually I never do. Here is an exception; this place is Mokom Chilul Hashem and one isn't allowed to extend niceties here to anyone.
Is Wechter any better then R' Sender Deutsch, just because he flipped sides ? Doubt it. Who is moicheh for R' Sender's kuvod - who is no longer with us ? He's being called with names much worse then a yim'sh and nobody cares; and all he did was to print what he considered necessary.
Wechter on the other hand was converting, with various degrees of success, the better echelon of bochurim; the reason he and his people stand out wherever they are is because of what they brought along, not what they acquired - and many of them quitely almost regret the move and would go back - but there is nowhere left to go.
Who's moiche for Rav Shach's kuvod ? I have nothing against him, at least nothing serious; neither do I know much about him. Whatever his hashkofos, the bletter gemora that he learned and made others learn should give him a bit more respect that what he got.
Don't get me wrong. I have tremendous respect towards Lubavitcher Rebbe zts"l - the real person, not the imago that various individuals are trying to projects. Not just respect, but I would say that on the order of yidden deserving respect for all the good they did and they were, he's very very close to the top of that list. But unfortunately that attitude has to be dropped when coming to places like Tzig's, because here any bit of respect, caring or other positive emotion one can show is immediately turned into ammunition in the feces hurling contest. This is exactly the situation of "ein cholkin kovoid".
"the bletter gemora that he learned and made others learn should give him a bit more respect that what he got."
The bletter gemore that Moses Mendelsohn learned and made others learn zolen em beishtein oich.
U N
who said anything about Reb Sender that needs your Macho'oh? All I said was that he wrote venomous articles, nothing about his personality. Is that not the case? I even gave him a "Reb" before his given name!
U N
Allow me to be the first to congratulate you on the "kind words" you managed to say about the Lubavitcher Rebbe Zechusey Yogen Oleinu. I know it was difficult for you, yet you were strong.
Bravo!
>the reason he and his people stand out wherever they are is because of what they brought along, not what they acquired<
As we used to joke as bochrim in 770: "ashrei mi shebo l'kan vetalmudo beyodo"
Un
what's your problem, I still can't figure it out.
The Satmerer used hands like Eisov and someone condemned it. Is there a problem in that?
Thousands of people were nisoirer to Torah and some Rosh Yeshivah only could criticize. Is that normal and not demanding of a mussar.
so now you are condeming the condemnation??
Its like the Arabs condemning the Israelis for attacking the Arabs who to begin with killed Jews.
Lets even say what Chabad did was wrong to enter Willy where does it enter a Yid to act like a behaimo.
Lets even say that to have a Magic show is ossur, where does it come for a Rosh Yeshivah to put thousands of children saying pesukim of Torah as a mesiboh of llaitzim??
chuchom,
past 20 years didn't work favorably for the "other side" of those events, because they did all they could to forget what happened then, while the tankisten fueled by generous and repeated portions of c2h50h midi yom yom embellished the events to where they are unrecognizable. but i was at one point in time in business with one of the gentleman who "tamed" mr. whatshisnames's (korf was it) beard, and all i know is that the violent ones were just a couple yechidim some of whom the rebbe almost threw out of beis medrash afterwards and the rest didn't fair much better. to portray that as some sort of an official war declared on these holy martyrs the tankists verebbom beroishom is a ridiculous lie, very much in line with the rest of lies and forgeries perpetrated by the achashdarpnim of k"t.
To put it in the words of Guravitzer, what about lehavdil the thousands of children saying surahs of Quran ? But the real problem is that Vabalniker and Mykolayever didn't even try to sort it out between themselves and instead hirbu machloikes beYisroel. And that both of them put it all in writing right next to the stuff that people will supposedly be learning for years and years to come, that doesn't deserve credit.
c2h50h -- what this??? you smoke it or it gets injected?
So now you are a moideh bemiktzas that is was only a few and the "others" didn't fair well anyway.
hertz zich ain.
It was a bad time then and it hasn't changed much today. look at the violence they have between and amongst themselves. (and that too is probably only a few and without the knowledge of their Rebbe??)
If you want to criticize a person who spent his entire life making the greatest impact on Klal yisroel by some event that needs your justification and explanation as to why his criticism wasn't warranted or said correctly it just goes to show how desperate you are to make your point.
Shalom
c2h50h is alcohol.
Thank you Google.
(I hated Science, and they never really taught us that table anyway.)
chuchum,
violence is a mark of post-chorban Judaism. And I mean _the_ chorban. However, I think, and most would disagree, that limited violence for something that's believed to be a good cause isn't as terrible as they'd like you to believe. If people are willing to put themselves on the line for an idea, good for them. Slimy bloggers will not get that concept.
Violence between A & Z T's is in itself a phenomenon that's far from being black and white. The actual violent ones are far and relatively few in between, but they get all the press because Satmar is still a thorn in every menival's eyes and whenever they can, they'll seek out a way to make it look worse (not that it looks good, mind you). But violence between A & Z isn't the topic here.
Have you read the few pages that are being discussed ? Can anyone dare to maintain this image of all encompassing love-kran caring for alle yidden, leader of everybody ? What I can see that if people armed with that paper actually got real power, they would take all those "mechutzafim" and put them face to wall, on day one. That's the Ahavas Yisroel here. And whatever the rift may be - rifts aren't new to either Chassidim or Litvakes; R' Reb Burych vs Kdyshas Levi, Sadiger vs Sanz, Belz vs Bobov, Czernobyl vs Breslov ; those were much, much worse then the made up Sakmer-Bubavich fight. But none of them left as much as any intetesting paper trail, not to mention placing it into anything falling under term "Seifer". Loi Kan the case here. Imagine what will be thought by 13 year old nebechlech stuffing themselves with such Chassidus in 60 years from now, when there is nobody remembering what actually happened ?
And such is the problem of this pervasive deranged moshichism (not of the yellow kind). People are so insecure in their belief in Geulah that they need to constantly reinforce the appearance of such belief by doing the most irresponsible, ridiculous things - to fool themselves into fake belief of imminent redemption. They write, say and do things that will cause harm to themselves in years and years to come; and they remain koirachs mikan umikan - not _really_ waiting for anything (as is very well seen from כוסם כיסם וכעסם ) and yet throwing away what they have. Alas, but seems that it has to be that way ...
Again the Natchalnik gets to decide what's worse and why. How convenient for him. The fact remains that the violence came from those who didn't print it, and who supposedly "condemned" (as if) the violent acts. Yes, they were very few, and the untold Kedushah that comes from every Satmarer and is evident on their holy faces is a thorn in the impure ones' sides, yeah, yeah, whatever.
They really did a job on you didn't they? You seem to reaaly be taken by furry and shiny hats, eh?
Hey
How about the guy who tried to kill the Rasha'gs wife?
How about the shaliach from Vietnam who got his leg busted courtesy of some fellow Lubab?
How about the daily fights between Meshichisten and the so called antis?
How about Yudel Krinsky and Avremel Shem tov being attacked?
Wash your dirty face first before you critize others!
Un
you are deranged. period.
If somoene reads through your posts you talk like a lunatic. erraticaly.
Now you became an expert on what brought the churban and what started afterwards.
There was plenty violence before the Churban. Don't your read I won't ask Neveeim - but at least the Haftorahs?? and it is always wrong.
and you condone a Little of it? So the Rebbe did know to whom he was speaking when he said loi mehaim veloi mimoimoinom. Keep away from people who think a little violence is alright.
then as predicted you ascribe the violence to only a few people while saying its ok
and now you conveniently get off the topic to your concerns for the future of Judaism and what will be read in 60 years?? and the Moshiach topic??
Let the kids in 60 years from now - if G-d forbid Moshiach isn't here by then know what a bunch of violent animals lived in Willy and mahaim yiru veyelamdu.
reality check,
violence is wrong period. Now how does the action of some rotton failures reflect the philosophy of Chassidus??
When UN has a problem with someone who criticizes violence (the Rebbe) as being not nice that is the problem.
The Rebbe at every occassion there was violence (which was very few before gimmel tammuz) was as clear and as forceful as one can get that it was unacceptable.
a lot more than current Rebbes are doing or saying.
what're you talking about wilson, who decides what's worse and why ? and even if I did, so what ?
The onle needed proof that sakmer takeh is a thorn in lowly eyes is that every shtik neveila from shmarya through berele including you all unite when it comes to lambasting with sometimes true but mostly false allegations.
And you have to admit that the flache biber hit is the nicest of them all ...
chuchum, the only deranged one here is you (well, not the only one but ..), drowning in your own spit. you're hallucinating. who ever claimed to know what brought the chorban ? violence is always wrong ? what about r' shimon and the witches, or all the other dozens upon dozens of stories of good people fighting bad people over good ideas ? yes, in theory it would be better if violence wasn't necessary. but in practice, if somebody will come up to your child and will give her a cross to kiss and a chazer candy, if you will NOT get violent, you're not worth the air you're breathing - you can give it all to tzig.
actually, a debil like yourself shouldn't be breathing anyway. But please do carry on with your BS; let the world know what's meant by your brand's "love for every jew" ...
I guess we can then safely assume (using your logic) that since you're the great Satmare defender (defending against what?) and you use the language of the lowest elements of society against people you know nothing about that Satmar is what? -----
HUH?!
I don't attack Satmar here.
Anyway, The word is Platchike Biber Hit, at least that's what they call it. I don't care what the correct term is, that's what they call it.
tzig, you maintain the platform for knee-jerk attacks on "hungarians", under whom as we've clearly established they mean sakmer uavizrayhu. You also sometimes join those attacks, and definitely don't ever attempt to defend a "nirdaf". But whatever, that's not even the topic here.
Problem is not criticising violence - criticise all you want, even if it gets somewhat hypocritical, as no group large enough can eradicate violence completely and yours are no exception. That's a good thing. But with what words to do it, that's something else. To throw out of "Klal Ahavas Yisroel" some hundred thousand jews, 99.9% of whom couldn't care less for the subject of this violence, is a step that sheds much light on the true nature of these seemingly innocuous acts of kindness and spreading of good. The message is - it doesn't matter what you do, as long you don't get in our way. Eat meatball parmigiano hero on pesach, be a literal murderer, live with a shiksa - all that's fine, you're still one of ours as long your checks don't bounce. But G-d forbid open your mouth against us - whatever the legitimacy of your criticism - that gets you a kick right out of Klal Yisroel. That's actually consistent with behaviour of pigs on this forum - whenever they hear something not to their liking, it's zeydes right away.
I maintain the platform?
Heck, Here I thought I was wasting my time, never knowing I had this "platform" going!
I sense generalizing on your part, eh? I mean you're so offended when I speak of them that way, so why be guilty of that yourself?
Tzig, you have misread my words - i'm not generalizing but doing the very opposite of it.
I don't remember the Rebbe saying a word about the guy who tried to kill his sister-in-law.
Maybe a ban on Rubashkin under the Crown Heights 'beis din' is in order???
Hirshel Tzig said...
Mendel Vechter gave up Koved; He gave it up because he was searching for Emes, something he felt was lacking. He found what his soul needed in Chassidus and in the Rebbe. He could have been a big Rosh Yeshivah in Satmar today had he stayed there.
So why isn't he a serious Rosh Yeshiva in Chabad today? Farshtooped in Kiryat Gat or wherever with a few kids - basically wasting away. And what became of his children?? Definitely not the chassidim/os had he stayed on in satmar.
>>None of the parents of the Bokherim you're so concerned about using that language when referring to him, and may have the only Nachas from those children.<<
Garbage! They were utterly shattered. Many considered sitting shiva. (BTW how did your father accept your conversion to Lubavitch? I'll bet he was REAL proud..)
willoby
Koydem Kol welcome! it's very nice to have you, but you're already getting on my nerves.
I know just about all of the Bochurim that learned by Reb Mendel. Their fathers may have been upset, and some very upset, and I dare say that it was based on a bunch of lies that they were fed over 30 years about Lubavitch and the Rebbe. Yet, if you ask them today if Reb Mendel is worth that he should be spoken of in terms of YMS"H Chas VeSholom all would tell you "no way."
U'N'
I've been following (or attempting to, your obvious ADHD makes it difficult) your rants, and cannot understand your point - that is, assuming that you actually have one ?
Are you upset that somebody might actually believe that Satmar have exclusive license to internecine violence....that they're the only ones with a history (albeit irregular) of violent attacks in shuls ?! Okay. It is now fairly well established that Lubavitch has a lunatic fringe that also resorts to inexcusable violence against a fellow Jew. Whoopie !! Not that I'm your mashpia c"v, but don't you think it might be time to, say, 'get a life' ? What- the Lubavitcher brand of ahavas-yisroel doesn't quite appeal to you ? I'm sure you'll remember that next time you're stuck in some hicktown with no kosher food - that is, unless you're one of those who prefer putting the peiyes unter'n kappel and hitting the local Red Lobster when you're outside the tri-state area...
As the old joke goes: Az men iz intervayginz darf men nisht huben Cholov Yisroel, Pas Yisroel und Bas Yisroel.
What a frankly great article!
I could not think you are more right!!!
Terrific writing...
Could be the greatest writing on the web!!
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