PLEASE REALIZE THAT THE QUESTION IS TZEMACH'S, AND NOT NECESSARILY IS HE ACCUSING THE CHERNOBLER HERE. HE'S ASKING.
All the Reb Nochum Chernobeler einiklach AKA Twerskys; they ruled over a large part of Ukraine virtually exclusively. Not counting Breslevers and the Ruzhiner who left, Twerskys had an exclusive hold on the vast and prosperous North Eastern part of Ukraine for a century. Speaking in American terms, what is the legacy? So the first Rebbe wrote Meor Einayim. But after that; what has this dynasty accomplished, and I don't mean that Fishel Shneerson was a fine psychiatrist or that Talner Tewrsky was a fine Harvard professor. What have the Twerskys done for the Jewish People during their 100 year reign?
66 comments:
The Chernobyl legacy al regel achas:
The Hornisteipol Twerski's of Milwaukee (shlit"a) and Denver (ZYA); R' Dr Avraham Twerski, R' Dr Aron Twerski, the Skverer, the Boro Park Rachmistrivker, the previous E"Y Rachmistrivker...did I remember everyone?
shoshanas haamakim
chibur letahara
emek shaala
turei zahav
emek chochma
pele yoetz
likutei tora
see what the steipler gaon writes about these seforim in his letters,
Let's not forget Aaron "Lipa Margulies is an honorable man" Twerski. How's that for a contribution to Jewish community?
What about Ruzhin?
They produced Ariel Sokolovsky (that's what he claims). Isn't that enough?
Magen Avraham from the Trisker Maggid
The Twerskys do lots of good stuff.
http://www.siam.org/news/news.php?id=705
http://www.gtwersky.com/
http://www.aftlaw.com/
http://libertyvideoproductions.com/about.html
http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/Dr-Rebecca-Twersky-Kengmana-MD-3006CE7D.cfm
http://www.ucomparehealthcare.com/drs/connecticut/plastic_surgery/Twersky_Howard.html
http://www.psd.k12.ca.us/128620928426967/site/default.asp
http://www.dukehealth.org/physicians/0DA837167738A8F185256DFD006A946C
http://www.mmwr.com/home/attorneys/default.aspx?d=2619
http://gateskeepers.civiblog.org/blog/_archives/2007/11/27/3377411.html
http://radomyshl.lk.net/btimages.html
My question was only about Twerskys. Please exclude Rushiner from this conversation. He left his land to Twerskys.
I also would like to exlude the American Twerskys. This is only about the 100 years in Ukraine.
I don’t care abut the American experience, royal family with good genes and some old world money could get few law and medical degrees, big deal.
I am pressed to think that the legacy of 100 years in Ukraine is in question. I mean Litvaks had yeshivas, Chabad whatever. But what do Twerskys have to show for themselves after 100 years in Ukraine besides redifos against Breslovers? Is that the Talner Rebbe zilbener throne?
They produced Ariel Sokolovsky (that's what he claims). Isn't that enough?
-------------------
No, I think the only connection Sokolovsky has with Chernobyl is that his seichel suffers from a meltdown on the level of the nuclear accident at Chernobyl!!
Wasn't Ukraine devastated in the last part of those 100 years by pogroms, haskalah, Zionism and socialism (at the least)? If I am not mistaken all of the above left no sarid upalit of frum Ukraine, for the most part. Or was that section of Ukraine not part of these upheavals? The geography beats me on this one. Maybe you can share some maps of the area you mean with the major Jewish cities.
Their modern legacy is mostly Abraham Twersky, and Milwaukee and Boston. Very little carryover from the old world.
From a general history point of view, "the Ukraine" or "Ukraine" was not really "on the map" for the last few hundred years. The reason is simple, they were controlled and dominated by the Russians, first in the Russian Empire and then by the USSR.
The Ukrainians were a crushed and humiliated people, so much so, that it is known, the minute Hitler's armies marched into areas where Ukrainians lived they joined the Nazis full force with hundreds of thousands of them in army units fighting the hated Russians and many Ukrainians running the Nazi death camps happily to kill Jews and make them suffer.
This impacts Jewish history and Jews living there. The Jews of Ukraine and their rabbis were living in an oppressed land. Unlike the Jews in Austria-Hungary, including Galitzia and chunks of Poland, who had freedom and wealth, and the Jews of Lithuania and Poland who were not oppressed by the Russians until seized and crushed by the Nazis and Bolsheviks in the 20th century, when until then Litvaks and Poilishe Jews had great intellectual freedom and access to support for Torah learning on the highest levels (Lithuania is not far from Germany and Poland where the rosh yeshivas went to raise money.)
The Jews of Russia proper were much better off than the Ukrianians in many ways because they were viewed as Russian Jews (like the original Lubavitchers) unlike Ukrainian gentiles who are hated by Russians and the "double curse" for thoise being Ukrainian and Jewish.
So it's in some ways not fair to really expect all thet much greatness from the Ukraine and from Ukrainian Jews and from their leaders either, be they Rebbes or whoever.
If a few great Rebbes came from there like the last Rebbe of Lubavitch or some others like the Twersky's it is no surprise that it does not compare to the numbers and quality of Talmidei Chachomim and Lomdus that came from Poland, Galitzia, Lithuania, BelaRussia and Russia.
are we done with buich svoras? Complete BS. Two moronic comments in a row, the last is Ariel or his stupid clone. Idiots, I am asking about the 19th century only!
there we/are cultural differences between Ukraine and Russia but my question stands. There were 100 years of relative peace and relative prosperity. What did Twersky accomplish in those years? What is the legacy?
We've discussed before what happens when you call everyone who engage you in conversation a moron.
Let's assume their contribution was limited, now that I've looked at a map, perhaps overshadowed by Lubavitch or others. Is there an issue with a limited contribution?
The issue is that the mighty Twersky family has done nothing over the 100 year period, while in total control of the Jewish life in the country which they claim as their origin. I repeat while in total and compete control of all jewish institutions in the "bread basket" of Europe as Ukraine was known, Twersky family done nothing. There is no legacy.
OK they done better than Reb Zusia or the Berdichiver who left no dynasty but still, considering the dominance in the prosperous region it is sad to see how worthless their reign was.
I mean nothing not even a lousy oligarch villa aka Sadigure. Not even one lousy yeshiva.
May be Reb Schneur got something up his sleeve, I am willing to listen.
But let say this, Twersky family exploited Ukrainian jews for their own benefit. Considering how "enlightened" Twersky are their Ukrainian chapter is tale of self centered exploitation.
If you noticed Lubavitch loves to talk about its history, but not Twerskys and there is a reason for that.
Tzemach lives! Happy to see that he is still his moody and cranky know-it-all self. Best of all,he can't block the comments. To quote Tzemach, "Idiot".
I dont understand the question. Why should there be any contribution? What was the contribution of Friedmanns, Halberstamms (post D"Ch), Rokeachs or Teitelbaums??? It was a hard time and they made a lot of yidden happy by allowing them to admire them, be proud of them and sponsor them. That counts.
There are Chasidic dynasties who are great contributors, dynasties who are minor contributors yet still contributed, and individuals who were great. Reb Zushe and the Berditchever will remain as great figures without their dynasty, their personalities emphasized such key doctrines in Chasidus that their stories will forever be told.
The Twersky's European contribution may not have been on the great scale, but it was on the average, such as Radomsk: A sefer or two as a legacy, and at the time nice chasidim yerei shomayim who learned, worked and went to the Rebbe. This is how your average Chasidishe Hoif worked. Schneur will certainly enlighten us with details when he comes around.
I am not sure where you see the exploitation though. In America they relied on their own merits, especially Abraham Twersky synthesizing psycology and rebbisteve.
I think Radomsk is a bad example of an average "Hoyf." They were a powerhouse in pre-WW2 Poland. 36 Yeshivos throughout. That's something, no?
You guys just don't get it. You can try as much as you want to argue rationally with this קליפה calling himself TA. It will be of no avail. Probably some member of the Twersky family pissed him off, so that's why he's after them.Maybe some shidduch gone sour ( like in Lubavitch ) etc. No special reason needed for him.
Don't argue with him,just stay away והמתאבק עם המנבל וכו...
To Gravitzer who says: "especially Abraham Twersky synthesizing psycology and rebbisteve" -- what is that supposed to mean?
Abe Twersky went to medical school, and instead of becoming a grobber dokter who cuts meat or sets bones, he stuck with text books on Freud and he repackaged psychoanalysis with coatings of crappy Chasidishe bubba-meises that no self-respecting Chusid or Litvish yeshiva bochur pays attention to.
He finally settled on running a rehab center for drunks and drug addicts, the lowest of the low in Orthodox society, that were far too dumb and lost even for the Holy Reb Shlomo Carlebach who at least did not repackage Dr. Freud (even though he was from Germany himself) but really delved into real Chasidishe seforim and brought the ruach, NIGUNNING and ta'am and geshmak of Chasidus and true spirituality to thousands of Yidden, with gantz feine stories that he may have embelished but noone could tell since they were so genuine and hartzig.
As for Dr. Twersky he hit it off with Nosson Sherman and Meir Zlotowitz of ArtScroll and they cut a deal with him whereby he would use his his doctor's dictating machine to keep spewing his "chochmas" and they would keep on printing his English books, again with the fraudulent pitch that it was all about Chasidus and curing "low self-esteem" (who didn't have it after the Holocaust?) but all it was, was again Dr. Freud's maps of the human psyche that he was regurgitating to unsuspecting frummies who knew no better and were forbidden to study psychology by their Rebbes and Rosh Yeshivas (so why was he allowed? Der "Rebbe" meg?)
Then he got to publish Snoopy and Charlie Brown books with the goyishe depressing cartoonist Schultz, again to help recovering drunks and drug addicts in 12-Step programs which he also sold to the rest of the Jewish masses as if it was the Rambam's Yud Gimmel Ikrim, lehavdil.
Bottom line, the man is a total caricature of a human being being. He looks, walks and talks like a goblin and it's hard to take him seriously (unless you are drunk, on LSD or blown your mind on too much pot.)
So if this is the best the Twersky's can do as a "great gift" to mankind, whoa, are we in trouble or in for a lot of good comedy, or what?
I chose it on purpose for that. They were a people powerhouse. But what was their legacy, as Tzemach asks? A sefer, and a memory. Much like the Twersky's combines, although I have no idea how the numbers compare.
How many times can I say that the question is not about the American Twerskys?
I am asking about the 100 year rein in the North Estern Ukraine.
The reason there are so many Twersky Rebbelach is that they all split and took control of every significant town on that land. Like a mafia family. One wonders why Mafia is particularly strong in that land today, its a tradition.
There is no one to speak today for the legitimate Rabbonim who where pushed out to make room for the grandchildren.
After they archived a complete 100 year control, the legitimate question is what is the legacy?
Nite Lubavitch split in the time of TT but it still a Lubavitch, so is Ger, Beltz, etc.
But Twersky found and employment for all their children and set them up as some stupid Ukrainian whatever, they are unique in that way. They where like MSFT of Ukraine, a Twersky on every PC.
Now what is the result? What have they done for Ukrainian jews?
Their legacy was/is helping thousands of people in various towns with their problems and davening for them. The family was/is very large and they continue to help people across the globe. Is this not legacy enough?
"There is no one to speak today for the legitimate Rabbonim who where pushed out to make room for the grandchildren"
Get your head out of the Ohel - learn history - check the Yizkor Books.
Every city had a Rebbe and a Rov - both had a purpose - noone was pushed out.
Wasn't the Rov a "friend" of your Rebbe? See what he said about the Twerski Chassidus
http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/rav4
Freud, analyze thyself. It's obvious you don't know Dr. Twersky at all. He nearly singlehandedly made mental therapy muttar for frum Jewry.
Tzemach, who are these legitimate rabbonim who were pushed out?
Guravitzer says: "He [Abe Twrsky] nearly singlehandedly made mental therapy muttar for frum Jewry."
The above claim is foolish and not true.
What he did do is take away the shame of being a shikur and druggy in the Frum world, so as long as an addict or frum drunk could say they were going to his his retreats then they were "kashered" and the "mum" (blemish) was somehow "gone" but as for saying that "He nearly singlehandedly made mental therapy muttar for frum Jewry" that is just wrong because that was not done by him in far off Pisburg or wheever he gave his groups.
What has made psycho-therapy acceptable in Orthodoxy is something different, it has come in differnt ways:
(a) In the last 30 years, a good number of bnai yeshiva became medical doctors and pyschologists (they can be named, but we won't for now) for parnosa, and it was approved by their rosh yeshivas and who realized that they had bochurim and people who could best be helped by frum doctors psychologists. They were not thinking of Twersky in far-off Pitsburg.
(b) More women in the frum communities started becoming counselors, social workers and psychologists and started to work in all community spheres and they were machnia themselves to rabbonim and worked with them for common goals. This became accepted by many parents and younger frum people as a need and had nothing to do with Abe Twrsky.
(c) In Lubavitch for example, many medical professionals became frum BTs and some were pshychologists and psychiatrists, as well as in other BT groups, and they proved that medical and mental health professions can go hand in hand with being frum.
This is like the BT movement, noone can claim "credit" for it, it just came with the times for a number of reasons and with different personalities involved but it was not one person who did it all.
Well, I wonder. You mention 30 years. I wonder what happened 30 years ago that sparked all this. Nah, it couldn't be... One particular person happened to receive his degree then. You seem to have something personal against him. Did he do something to you? Or to someone you know?
Guravitzer: The "30 year" figure was a good number because it was a time when frum bnai Torah rofessionals started appearing in LARGE numbers but it began much earlier than that, 50 or 60 or even more years ago.
The story also started already when YU built Albert Einstein college in the 1950s and 1960s and other from Jews started graduating from other medical schools in all fields, and as you may or may not know, ALL doctors must take courses in psychiatry as part of all their medical studies.
Therefore each and every frum doctor, no matter his or her field was and is trained in the theory psychiatry (they have to be because they give medications) and it was not one man who changed anything. The time changed things, not one nerbel of a rabbi.
And no, there is nothing personal here. He is likable, but why does looking at a peson or a subject critically have to mean it's a "personal matter" -- have you never been to college and studied subjects, like, er, psychology or something? This is not supposed to be a fan club or love fest, except Tzig who loves Lubavitch because he is a Lubavitcher, but not everyone is a card-carrying party member of everything or anything.
YU has no affect on the Chassidishe or heimishe community. Twersky does. I'm going to assume, unless you say otherwise, that you are part of a YU oriented community and therefore have no clue.
"After they archived a complete 100 year control, the legitimate question is what is the legacy?"
They exist today as they spread out across Ukraine and spread Chassidus..
Lubavitch=Breslov = Toit Chassidus = No Rebbe
Square/Chernobal etc. are live and well - sounds like a pretty good legacy.
anon
I don't believe that their is more hisoirerois rosh hasana for bnie aliya in Rachmistrivka then in Uman
I don't believe that their is more simcha in New Square for bnie aliya then in 770
Their is more life by both Breslov and Chabad, don't start jumping about the crazies in both places, but it is all the consequences of the chasidic concept of Mafkir zein even your Neshome for a other Jew
yenems gashmius iz dayn ruchnius, is a old hallowed chasidic saying. being mafkir your neshoma is what carlebach did and even the rebbe couldnt condone it or allow him any association.
Half of the Rebbes in Chernobel had a tradition of not saying Torah in public,this definitely is a big part of their non long lasting influence
You people just like to her our own voice. Of course the dynasty has influence, there is no doubt about that. But do they have legacy? What have they done for Jews in Ukraine? No being a nice Shtible Rebbe doesn't count.
I am starting to think that the only legacy is the famous letter published by Professor David Assaf.
Twerskys bitter redifos of Breslovers is most shameful chapter in the recent Jewish history.
Guravitzer says that "YU has no affect on the Chassidishe or heimishe community" which is not what I was saying beseide the fact that he is dead wrong.
The point I was making was that Dr. Twersky was not doing something unique alone because there was a movement going on the Orthodox and frum world where Orthodox Jews and boys from yeshivas like RJJ, MTJ, Torah Voda'as and Chaim Berlin went out to become college educated professionals like accountants lawyers and doctors including getting into mental health fields, and there were also women from these familes who went out and got degrees and became counselors or social workers.
Guravitzer is being facetious and less than honest because he is twisting two things. He makes it seem that because Abe Twersky became a psychiatrist "therefore" somehow or other (a) frum people, be they Chasidish or Litvish started to accept and and go to psychiatrists and seek psyscho-therapy, and he implies that (b) Chasidishe people are influenced by Abe Twersky to "be like him" which they are not because virtually no Chasidim become professionals since secular limudei chol is assur. And most Chasidim have never heard of him.
So that when I mention that YU was already pioneering medical doctors in the Orthodox world and that yeshiva guys not from YU were going to medical schools, where as part of their curriculum they learn about psychiatry, that is what really made the entire Orthodox and frum world come at ease with the mental health field.
If there is mental illness or emotional problems in a frum family then when your private MD or pediatrician sends a person or child for psychotherapy or to a psychaitrist (even to a goyisghe or non-frum doctor), the frum world listens and does it NOT because Abe Twersky became a shrink 40 years ago, but because people trust their trained doctors to help them, many of the doctors today are Baruch H-shem, are Orthodox and frum.
There is an organization of Orthodox Jewish mental health professionals and they are all pioneers, Twersky is one of them, but he was not the "bokei'a hayam" that opened up or "kashered" therapy for the frum oilem.
If anyone did a real act in this area, it was Ronny Greenwaald who got the NY Federation to fund the JBFCS office in Boro Park starting about 40 years ago and they hired a team of psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers who were and many are still trained in secular or YU type colleges and they did and still do treat thousands of Chasidish Boro Park, Crwon Heights and Willimsburg patients and families without Abe Twersky having anything to do with it (in any case, his specialty is alcohol addiction and substance abuse and he is in Pitsburg with no shaiches to Brooklyn.)
"I am starting to think that the only legacy is the famous letter published by Professor David Assaf."
And even that is not a legacy, as Assaf is history, not legacy.
So now its 40 years. But I am less than honest. At least I can keep my years straight. (How am I facetious?)
The Twersky family was recently featured in a fantastic Mishpocho Magazine article, and it seems that they are the real deal.
"Twerskys bitter redifos of Breslovers is most shameful chapter in the recent Jewish history."
I have to disagree. THE most shameful chapter in the recent Jewish History is MESHIACHISTS - hands down.
What is the shame? Who have they persecuted or harmed? (for the most part, not the crazy off their drugs kids in 770 a few times a year.)
Gyravitzer is right, show me a family that was forced to a divorce because of Moshiachists, vs New Square has forced the famous Mermelstien of satmar/breslov for a divorce by the the Rebbe and his mother Trane AH
maybe their legacy is that they provided and provide spiritual guidance... and producing generation after generation of gedolei yisroel with a warm personal leadership style to hundreds of thousands of jews, this at times during very difficult chapters of our history.
B"H
yoshe kalb said...
They produced Ariel Sokolovsky (that's what he claims). Isn't that enough?
Sunday, March 16, 2008 3:54:00 PM
In 1994 I showed the Talner Rebbe zt"l a letter from my grandfather about the part of our family tree from the Chernobyler dynasty side.
After I translated the letter to him he told me that he and my father are 3rd cousins.
PS. Tzemach should look in Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_(Hasidic_dynasty)
and in the list of Yortzaits and bios of the tzadikim at Nehora.com : http://nehora.com/index.cfm/category/333/tzadikim.cfm
Some of their books and other accomplishments are listed there.
Also the American Twerskys are generally very fine people.
They should also be included in the
list of Chernobyller dynasty accomplishments, not to mention our Rebbe is also descended from the Chernobyller Rebbe.
The Maggid of Mezeritch promised that Moshiach will come either from his oldest student or the youngest one (Chernobyller Rebbe or the Alter Rebbe) wanting to make sure Maggids promise will be materialized thru both of them they made a shiduch between the daughter of the Alter Rebbe and the grandson of the Chernobyller Rebbe and thus our Rebbe Melech haMoshiach descends from both of these families.
B"H
PPS:
To clarify when I mentioned Talner Rebbe in my previous comment I meant the one from Boston:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isadore_Twersky
PPPS. It happened to me once in I think 1997 I was flying from NY to Boston and met a Squarer Chossid who just came back from Eretz Yisroel in JFK airport.
During our conversation he asked me if I'm related to the Chernobyller Rebbe I said "Yes" and asked him how did he know this. He said that I look like his Rebbe.
He gave me his name and number and invited me to stay by him for Shabbos if I'll ever be in New Square.
B"H
Blogger Tzemach Atlas said...
I don’t care abut the American experience, royal family with good genes and some old world money could get few law and medical degrees, big deal.
I am pressed to think that the legacy of 100 years in Ukraine is in question. I mean Litvaks had yeshivas, Chabad whatever. But what do Twerskys have to show for themselves after 100 years in Ukraine besides redifos against Breslovers? Is that the Talner Rebbe zilbener throne?
Sunday, March 16, 2008 4:11:00 PM
Hillulah Day: Tamuz-2 Print
Rabbi Avraham of Trisk
Born:
Died: 1889
Rabbi Avraham of Trisk (the Maggid of Trisk) was was one of eight sons of the tzaddik, Rabbi Mordechai of Chernobyl.
He was well known for blessing people, blessings which did not go unanswered.
Rabbi Avraham said that his soul came down to this world to correct and fix the Avrechim (Yeshiva students). In his book Magen Avraham ( http://www.nehora.com/index.cfm/product/2161?CFID=4987670&CFTOKEN=98480247
he includes many guidelines for Yeshiva students.
see more here
:
http://www.judaicaplus.com/tzadikim/tz_viewer.cfm?page=avrahamtrisk.htm
"not to mention our Rebbe is also descended from the Chernobyller Rebbe"
Not correct. His Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka was - not him.
"In 1994 I showed the Talner Rebbe zt"l a letter from my grandfather about the part of our family tree from the Chernobyler dynasty side.
After I translated the letter to him he told me that he and my father are 3rd cousins"
You may be a cousin, but probably not a Tolner/Chernobler descendant.
the Lubavitcher Rebbe was not a Chernobler Einekel... though his Rebbetzin was.
B"H
Anonymous said...
"In 1994 I showed the Talner Rebbe zt"l a letter from my grandfather about the part of our family tree from the Chernobyler dynasty side.
After I translated the letter to him he told me that he and my father are 3rd cousins"
You may be a cousin, but probably not a Tolner/Chernobler descendant.
Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:20:00 AM
I'm a descendant of R. Menachem Nochum of Chernobyl thru his son R. Mordechai of Chernobyl, thru his 1st born son R. Aharon of Chernobyl , thru his son the Rebbe of Rachmistrivka etc.
I don't know why this is so unbelievable to you.
My maternal grandfather Mordechai Rosenthal ob"m told me in 1993-94 that his father in law my maternal great-grandfather Yaakov Kushnir was initially against my parents marriage in 1979 .
He said that he doesn't want to have a Jew from the Ukraine as his son in law he said that "they [Ukranian Jews ] eat pork , don't speak Yidish and my great grandchildren will be like goyim" (Ukraine became part of Soviet Union 20 years before Besarabia thus 1 more generation of Jews in Ukraine were pushed away from Judaism compared to Jews in the part of Moldova to the west of Dnester river which only became part of Soviet Union in 1940)
While speaking with my fathers family my great-grandfather found out that he is a "Chernobyller einikle" thru his grandmother Nechama Twersky.
At that point he stopped objecting to the match and said that he believes that in the merit of the tzadikim that his future son in law descends from his children will return to Hashem.
My parents got divorced when I was less than 1 year old.
I was not aware of this story till I was about 14. At that point I was
Shomer Shabbos and I have not ate non kosher meat since I was 11 when I found out that the meat we had was treif and kosher was not available.
That year I was also crying in shule on Rosh haShana and Yom Kippur feeling that whole breast beating was an exericize in futility since despite my best efforts we didn't have kosher dishes and I felt as if I was like a person who is saying "achteh ve ashuv"-"i'll sin and I'll repent"
(I saw the quote in Tanya in Russian translation but I wasn't aware that this doesn't apply in such a case.)
That year I was also crying in shule on Rosh haShana and Yom Kippur feeling that whole breast beating was an exericize in futility since despite my best efforts we didn't have kosher dishes and I felt as if I was like a person who is saying "achteh ve ashuv"-"i'll sin and I'll repent"
Back then you ate treif meat, but at least you weren't a meshumad.
B"H
Anonymous MIB said...
the Lubavitcher Rebbe was not a Chernobler Einekel... though his Rebbetzin was.
Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:27:00 AM
I think both of them are:
http://www.loebtree.com/tsemah.html
http://www.loebtree.com/tsemah.html
follow the tree - the rebbe was NOT a descendant of Chernobel - his wife was.
B"H
Sorry, my mistake.
But I have seen this in other sources.
An article in Beis Moshiach from few years ago about the Maggid's promise
and a Chossid trying say this story at a farbrengen in Rebbe's presence.
Same story also mentioned in other places.
I aw it mentioned in the name of reb Shlome Bobover z"l the 2nd, in Kerem Hachasidus
BTW, he was also a grandson from both dynasties.
How could not any mention the talking fish? epes a kleinikeit?
All descendants of the Cherkasser Rebbe - a son of R' Mottele Chernobler - are eineklach of Baal Hatanya as well. This includes the entire Milwaukee family, Bobov and Satmar. The Lubavitcher Rebbe himself was not a Chernobler descendant.
Shut you naive lier and u know it well, mr. anti semite, and u know well the tachlis of this blog is to bash e/one including lubab.
There is alot alot more b''h
chabad whatever.
whatever what?! they did nothing for klal yisroel,!!
Tschernobel spread kdusha v'chasidus all over ukraine and beyond.
as I mentioned b4 alot was acomplished,
besides u very well know about the progroms that went on most of that centry
Lubab had lots to hide and their well fooling u, the twersky's have alot n'say alot with nothing to hide
u wouldnt mention that vs lubab?!
So when do u believe asaf and when not.....
di emes badert....
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