It's interesting to note how the writer of this part of the Rakoshik memoirs, I believe an irreligious Jew at the time, still finds it necessary to differentiate between Telshe and the other Mussar Yeshivos, and holds Telshe to be on a higher level than the rest. In Telshe there was only learning Torah, no Mussar, no being busy with "character refinement" like other Yeshivos, (Slabodka, Kelm, Ponovezh) only learning Torah. That's why, he says, Telshe was the appropriate place for Chabad Bochurim from the region. Chabadniks are Kalte Chassidim, Moychen over Middos, and Telshe was just like it. The only difference was during the short Mussar Seder they learned Tanya instead of Mussar, otherwise they were part of the fabric of the Yeshivah, and were the leaders and doers when it came to leading Yeshivah functions such as Purim and Simchas Teyreh, and were the organizers of all kinds of Chesed.
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68 comments:
R'Shmuel Levitins own son or sons studied in Telz.Can someone post info?.I don't think they survived the war.
Can somebody post any information about Dayan Alony, the some of the famous chosid from Manchester R'Dubov.
He was Dayan in Dublin,Ireland was a big talmid chochom and masmid, died at an old age a couple of years ago.
I think he learned in Telz and than Chevron in Eretz Yisroel.
Interesentingly enough I don't think he had a shaychus with Lubavitch.
He has a much younger brother in Crown Heights named Dubov.I'm guessing that because of some reason with the Russian goverment he had to change his name from Dubov, which probably means oak=alon in loshon kodesh.
Reb shmuel had a few sons in New York, although I do remember hearing about a younger son who was learning in Telz and didn't make it out,
What do you know about Dayan Alony?
Interestingly, I know at least 2-3 choshuve rabbonim who learned in Yeshivas Philadelphia (led by R'Shmuel Kaminetsky and R'Elya Svei) and subsequenly either became Lubavitch or became much more pronounced Lubavitch.
Interesting post.
Can you please help me with a historical question: when and why did it become treif for Lubavitcher bochrim to learn in Telz? or is it not?
Yes, I know them too, and they seem to respect Reb Elya quite a bit. Interesting seeing that he's known as a major Misnaged.
I asked Rabbi L. this question, and he said that he only sent his kids to Lubavitcher yeshivos, even though he was in Phili for 8 years, as otherwise they would have an identity crisis. Any comments?
excuse my ignorance, but who's Rabbi L?
Including the father of the famous Schochet family, was a telzer.
I don't think it's Treyf for a Lubavitcher to learn there. In my father's times in Cleveland there were a few Lubavitcher Bochurim there too. It's just that we've become a very polarized society where nobody's comfortable with the other. A Lubavitcher today would have a very hard time there. This is the case even in elementary school elsewhere; Kids are taunted for being Lubavitchers!
Well if Lubab would be normal they would not be taunted...Remember those were the times before their Rebbes were shlit'a leoloom voed, before they decided to make fashion statements by taking perfect hats and stomping on them, than wearing them as a badge of honour
I agree that the place for Lubavitchers is with Lubavitch.There is more Sholom that way.
Tzig, t'is time you moved back to Crown Heights. You won't see all those snaggy things that make you meshigeh
After your long , very informative and nice missive about Hungary, let me write a few words about Lithuania .
Jewishly Lithuania included Lita, (proper) Western White Russia and East White Russia. they basically spoke the same Yiddish, had the same levush, ate the same cuisine vechuli. Of course as in ALL large regions thee were some very minor regional differences.
I wonder if there were any significant differences between chabad people in Ponoviesz , (Lithuania) Smargon (western white russia) and lets say Vitebsk.
Of course east White russia was the home turf of the Schneersohn's (and home to most Lubavitch people) but lets not forget what the Alter rebbe was called Rav Zalman Litvak, because the whole region was in jewish terms --- Lita.
That being said , there were Chabad bachurim (that is teens from chabad families)in ALL Lithuanian yeshivas after the end of the 19th century. People like Reb Aaron, Rabbi Ruderman and other roshim came from Chabad families. the Rayaatz sent Rabbi SZ Gurary to a mission to various Litvishe yeshivas to be mekarev exactly these bachurim in the 1930's..Factually there were more Chabad bachurim in the various Navarodok yeshivas after world war 1 then there were in Telz.
No where do I see a real case made to show that Telz had any special connection or affinity to Chabad.
R. Shochet was not a Hasid when he studied in Telz.Gutnick went there because of dayan Abramsky.Frankly the Bloch family put a great premium on the study of mussar (shiure daas) not seeing it as a ma bekach. As a matter of fact the gaon Reb Yosef Leib Bloch closed the yeshiva for a while rather than remove Mussar from the curriculum !
Any objective study of Telz before the Second world war will reveal a fairly modern educational system under its control with a secular studies program, tight organization, school for girls, a modern orthodox teacher's seminary for men ,support for the Aguda and a certain degree of influence by Hirschian thought and hashkofa in most areas except the yeshiva itself. Modern Hebrew was the language of instruction in all their schools except for the yeshiva itself. They were the chief sponsors of the Orthodox school system in the independednt republic of lithuania after world war 2 and those schols (called Yavneh) were well organized and completely different than the traditional cheder in White russia that still existed in Litvishe areas under Polish control until 1939.
My teacher and friend rav Tuvye Lasdun of WH (Hashem yishlach lo Refuah shleimah bekarov)a Telzer informed me that Lithuania (the republic) had not 1 old fashioned cheder after 1918 and that was under the direct influence of Telz.
Check the official organ of the Telz Aguda Haneeman written in modern hebrew with articles on modern Literature for example i recall an article on the Indian poet Tagore !
Does all of this sound close to Chabad ???
I don't think that R'Ahron Kotler-Pines was of Lubavitcher stock despite his son R'Schneours name.
Rav Ruderman was of Lubavitch backround and another example given before was Dayan Zalman Alony son of the famous shochet from Manchester, Dubov
People who are ignorant of history always point out the hate between misnagdim and chasidim.In Litah it is just not true.They got on relatively well.The fight was rekindled when the Previous Rebbe became Rebbe and after the War.Who is to blame?Well each side will blame the other one.However bear in mind that when one group seeks to win over another groups youth with clandestine Tanyah shiurim etc there is bound to be trouble.
I in no way condone violence, but when Lubavitch sent people into Satmar to teach youngsters they were asking for trouble
Schneur, out of couriosity,wasn't the one in charge of Jewish education in the Lithuanian Gov't Rav Chadakov?
An interesting anecdote, which I personally heard from one of R' Motti Berger (shliach in Ottawa)'s brothers, who happens not to be a Lubavitcher:
A third brother wanted to go to Lubavitch after Motti "became one". In "yechidus" (as many non-Lubavitchers also, they went in as a family or otherwise a few at a time), he asked the Rebbe, as bochur - to come to Lubavitch.
The Rebbe told him, "Du zolst bleiben in Telz."
The brother who told me, said it's a suprising answer, and many didn't believe it. But he was in that yechidus as well.
(Apparently, the Rebbe wasn't looking for recruiters, kaveyochoil.)
Talking about chinuch, check out the latest option for a chabad chinuch for out-of-NY shluchim:
http://www.shluchim.org/main/inside.asp?id=1416
Y'yasher Koach, Gedalya
"The fight was rekindled when the Previous Rebbe became Rebbe and after the War."
Which War?
Yoshe
that was the Latvian Government, not the Lithuanian.
I don’t think you’ve made any connection between Telsh specifically and Chabad. Rather, you have shown (once again), that until recently, Chabad was closer to Misnagdim than any other Chassidism. This was in part for cultural reasons, but also, because the chabad emphasis on Chochma was closest to the Litvisher way, no emphasis on miracles, or eating kugle etc. (The tremendous reverence by Litvisher for the Shulchan Aruch Harav must also play some role in that).What changed in the last fifty years…..
Can anyone out there comment intellegently on any intellectual relationship between the Telzer Shiure daas and Chabad chasiduth ?
What was rav Gifter's attitude towards Chabad ?
Thanks
Schneur: May I, please?
I used to listen to Rav Gifter's tapes, we would get them periodocally, since my father is an alumnus. I don't think there's any resemblance to anything that resembles a shiur daas! They're typical shmuessen, the same thing you'd hear from any other Rosh Yeshivah or Mashgiach: a Gedank based on a Posuk or Midrash, that turns into a loud, shtender-banging session.
It seems like the "art" of the shiur daas was basically Nignaz together with the Yeshivah on 20 Tammuz 5701, when the whole town and Yeshivah were murdered, HaYaD. Reb Elya Meir continued that for a while in America, but may have soon realized that today's "Litvishe-oriented Bochurim are not up to it. In any case after Reb Elya Meir Bloch there was none of that.
As far as Rav Gifter's attitude towards Chabad: Vos darf men redden vegen shaychnei ofor....
If I may say, b'rshus HaTzig:
Before 3 Tammuz, al kol ponim - Rav Gifter indeed had a shtikel kesher with Chabad and the Rebbe.
(I think he even has an "erech" in "Shem sosson m'chavreicha"?)
I never knew I had that many friends!
But define shtikkel.
The Tzig, in classic fashion, has disregarded Twistleton and other posters points that Lubavitch and what Lubavitchers derisively call Snags used to get on well.It's not good for their hate 'mivtza'.
Tzig, by mistake fell into his own 'bor'
The truth is that misnagdim and chassidim, once the initial machlokes ended about two hundred years ago (!)have gotten on much better that chasidim vs other chasidim! If people think that todays rivalries are new they are wrong!
I believe that the real reason that Snags and Lubavitcher stopped getting along was Lubab missionary tendencies.Any group that tries to candestinely win over converts, especially young kids is gonna cause problems.
Lehavdil, see how the Mormon Church is hated by other gentiles, they to are trying to missionarize people.
BoroPark
this is your last warning. if you use church references (which I believe are very close to your heretic heart) again your comments will be rejected. There's no need for them unless you have doubts about Judaism being the true religion.
You did not even read my comment.
All I brought was the analogy that people don't like when other groups 'prey' on their souls.
You are however right, that others, a lot smarter than myself have pointed out that Lubavitch has a lot of similarities to early Christianity.
I guess it scares you that you have taken so much flack for joining these retards and then you get accused of being part of a cult with Christian tendecies.I feel for you.If you move back to Crown Heights you''ll feel much more secure and won't have to face reality checks all that often
I read your comment. I guess I failed to understand your deep thoughts on the early history of the church. How educated and sophisticated of you.
Say hello to Deli 52 for me.
My first comment was that the reason for the rekindling of an ancient machlokes was Lubavitchs' underground missionary activities.Setting up secret Tanya shiurim by charismatic people specially chosen for the mission in many yeshivos.
I said that lehavdil that's why the Mormons are hated by other gentiles.
This question is posed to other readers because I''ll never get an honest response from you:Fellow readers, what would happen if a group of snags or Satmar or.....Breslovers would set up secret shiurim in Lubavitcher yeshivas targeting younger kids in their teens.Would Lubavitch react with violence and vehement protest, especially if a shpitz Chabad family was involved?
I don't expect you to know much, with you having the benefit of a Skver/Belz/Munkacs/Spinka/Satmarer education, but the reason the Mormons are hated or disliked is not because they prosletyze. Go read up on it.
Also, maybe the Tanya shiurim had to be clandestine because of the rabid, unjustified hatred towards Chabad?
''Also, maybe the Tanya shiurim had to be clandestine because of the rabid, unjustified hatred towards Chabad?''
You just told us how Lubavitcher got along even in shpitz Lita in Telz??
I guess you don't even realize what a kool aid job they did on you
BTW
Don't get me started on the other reasons that the Mormons are disliked such as their new Book of Mormon because that is to reminiscent of other 'neiyeh toirehs'
what's a kool-aid job, and where do they "do this?"
I guess I DO need to be very deliberate and exact:
The reason they began later to disallow it is because they knew they're a society with gaping holes, with very little spoken about G-d and why were on this world. So anybody who opens a Tanya and who attends a shiur is a prime candidate to leave their Yeshivah. Don't get any other silly notions in your head.
Also, if you realize, you'll see that in Telz we spoke about Bochurim learning there, not outsiders coming to give Shiurim in Tanya, right? Can you understand the difference?
Finally, if they allowed outright Kefirah clubs in Telz and in all other Yeshivos why shouldn't they allow Tanya?
Now go away.
You showed earlier that even Telz ,shpitz Lita was on good terms with Lubavitch, right?
So how dare you say this ''Also, maybe the Tanya shiurim had to be clandestine because of the rabid, unjustified hatred towards Chabad? ''
Where was this rabid hate coming from? Lubavitch, later on used it as a way to 'prey' on naive young teens like you.
'They allowed outright kefirra'
What are you smokin'?
And answer the question already,
Do you have a problem with secret Breslov shiurin in 770??
Try and comment once on each comment, even it means a bit of concentration.
1) Shpitz Lita was Shpitz Lita. Today it's Shpitz wannabes.
Kefirah, yes. All Yeshivos had "underground" Haskoloh groups, Socialist, Zionist, Bundist etc. You think the Hanholoh knew nothing about this? And I'm the one on kool-aid?
Read a little history.
Remember this: Nobody preyed on me, it was all my doing. And it's no more naive than a 15 year old boy thinking that BZ Halberstam with his brown Bekishes is somehow close to G-d.
Answer the Breslov question
IIRC you said that the question was to the readers, right?
You said: This question is posed to other readers because I''ll never get an honest response from you.
try and halt kup
If you bought into hayntigeh Lubavitch without anybody brainwashing you, something I highly doubt, you are takkeh a naive simpleton.
I don't expect you to know much, with you having the benefit of a Skver/Belz/Munkacs/Spinka/Satmarer education"
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Reb Tzig, why throw Belz into this list? Belz does not teach their chassidim to perpetrate machloikes.
Touche.
My bad
Itzhak:
The point wasn't to "incriminate" Belz per se', it's the type I speak of.
Am I a naive simpleton? maybe. I believe in a being I've never seen, and I believe that he created the world and everything in it. I believe that he wants me to not eat bread for 8 days a year, and by that I will get closer to the unseen creator. Boy, am I naive....
Just a personal note, my bas yechidah attends the Yavneh Teachers Seminary in Cleveland a "branch" of Telze.
The young ladies are taught Shiure daas by Rebbetzin Ausband ( a member of the Bais Horav of Telze), from texts rather than baal peh.So I presume they think that the concept of shiur daas is still extant.
I also beleive that the late Rabbi Gifter was a rav of a Nusach Ari shul in Waterbury in the WW2 era.
I would bet that the Bochurim in the Yeshivah HaGedolah VeHaKedoshah of Telshe in Wickliffe, OH are NOT taught Shiurei Daas anymore. I guess it's only for Vayber....
Maybe you volunteer to teach them?
Am I a naive simpleton? maybe. I believe in a being I've never seen, and I believe that he created the world and everything in it. I believe that he wants me to not eat bread for 8 days a year, and by that I will get closer to the unseen creator. Boy, am I naive....
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I think most Chassidim from alle kryzen share this belief. The problems, even in Satmar, are coming from a core of 5-25% of alienated laydigeyers who have no real emunah and who turn to machloikes as a way of covering for their lack of belief and lack of accomplishment in life. We've got them too; it's just part of human nature. Some of ours are the trimmed beard yuppie types and their tznius violator wives who just stay in Chabad for family reasons; others are really off the derech, and a "select" few are to be found at the forefront of every disagreement in Chabad.
Yoh.
Izhak
Who the %^&* are you talk evil about other Lubavitchers?
I see. It is OK to talk bad about Satmar and everyone else, but we should sweep our problems under the rug and pull the wool over our eyes.
We need internal shluchim in CH and the major communities to pull the level up and inspire people to raise standards. We need to look at the successes of Satmar and other communities and emulate them, rather than trying to pull them down.
I don't know if it is true, but I hear that CH families and shluchim have to rely on SHIMMY DEUTSCH for financial assistance because we have no proper chessed framework. I see more tznius violations and disrespectfully dressed men here in CH (which I am BH leaving after 9 Av) than I do on the Upper West Side.
And we bash other communities. They never had Chassidus Chabad, and bashing will not get them to start to appreciate it or at least to stop fighting against it and against us. Neither will lack of standards and failure to rein in the whackos with the yellow flags. For that matter, not ridding ourselves of a handful or two of corrupted or just plain burnt out shluchim who make a bad impression in public won't do a thing for us.
We are not perfect. No one is. We can't go around acting as if we are. We do a lot more for other Yidden than most other communities, but we also have our own problems that hold us back. Everyone has their cliques of problem individuals, but we cannot let these dropouts set the tone for our community. We also cannot pretend they do not exist, because they are very vocal and very visible, and like it or not, they have a subconscious influence on the rest of us. It shouldn't be, but that is what is.
If you say Yechi at the shiur, you can teach anything you want in 770.
“I don't know if it is true, but I hear that CH families and shluchim have to rely on SHIMMY DEUTSCH for financial assistance because we have no proper chessed framework.”
This has come up before, both on this blog and others, that CH has less ‘Chessed’ than comparable frum neighborhoods. It is also born out by my personal experiences having hung around in CH (no, not as a potential recipient B’H). Any theories as to why this is? I have suggested that the demographic group that dose so much chessed in other frum communities (single girls, newly married woman) in CH is busy with out reach. I have another theory. In Lakewood and many other frum communities, someone who is not holding by learning 24/7 will find a socially acceptable outlet by being involved in Chessed. In CH it is outreach. Any thoughts?
My theory is that it is not, and that we each hear/see what we want to.
My little theory:
I'd rather not be stuck on an island with Hmmm.
Sounds like a selfish kind of guy to me.
hmmm
Care to explain what you mean?
Hirshel
I heard from a friend of mine that Telshe yeshiva in Ohio almost doesn"t exist it"s down to a couple of bochurim. The only telshe yeshiva that exist is the Chicago branch. Is there some truth to that.
Sorry to spoil the chabad basheing party.
There is also the Telze Alumni Yeshiva in Riverdale which is doing well.
I have heard that the main Yeshiva is torn by strife between various pretenders for "baayles" of the institution.Is this an accurate represenation of the facts ?
The best magid shiur of the younger generation has been in Lakewood for a few years now .
With modern transportation and the "mega" yeshivas of Brisk and Mir in Jerusalem , I think we may see other examples of this in the future.
What a yeshiva nowadays needs is a certain unique identity ie Ner Israel a modern place with college encouraged. Chafetz Chaim , a serious Mussar yeshiva with serious outreach goals and potentials.
Of course Jewish "Barrio" schools like Chaim Berlin and Tore Vedaas always will do well because of their location.
Years ago Telz was the out of town Yeshiva with a strict discipline.
Todays Yeshivas like S. Fallsberg, Torah T"mimah ,Philly, Scranton , and a few others act like feeder schools to the Lakewood, Brisk constellation.
Anon-
1. learn how to spell correctly.
2. pointing out that bringing down other Orthodox groups is both idiotic and counterproductive is not "chabad basheing".
Schneour
Torah Vodaas,post high school beis medrash is not doing very well actually, hasen't been in many years, but it chugs along.
Chaim Berlin, is doing very well.
Scranton would not be considered a feeder yeshiva for Lakewood.It's a small yeshiva with very good roshe yeshiva.
Philly, doing ok, feeder for Brisk,Lakewood.
Fallsburg, doing ok, not as much of a feeder for Lakewood.
Chofetz Chaim is totally it's own kind of yeshiva with a very involved rosh yeshiva, lots of boys from 'outreach' backround.Feeds strictly to it's own yeshivas.They have a long, like 16 year program from high school through kolel than they go into outreach, chinuch, mostly setting up a Chofetz Chaim branch.
Telz Cleveland is not doing very well, despite having one of the nicest yeshiva campuses in the world and all its history.
Telz Chicago is doing well
Itzhak S. said...
Reb Tzig, why throw Belz into this list? Belz does not teach their chassidim to perpetrate machloikes.
....
Obviously Itzhak, you don't know too much about such things.
ASk about the Belz battles with Machnovke and Rachmastrivke..
Twistleton
Explain me why a town like BP the richest hungarian frummest city since Churban Habeis needs a Lubavitcher Yungerman (I understand he isnt anymore)to do chesed for BP families that Tomchei Shabbos does not give them,
BTW there is Tomchei Shabbos (BZ STOCK A"H)in CH
"Twistleton
Explain me why a town like BP the richest hungarian frummest city since Churban Habeis needs a Lubavitcher Yungerman (I understand he isnt anymore)to do chesed for BP families that Tomchei Shabbos does not give them"
If I understoud the original poster, R. Duetch is sending his stuff to CH!! BTW, Duetch is a HUNGARIAN name. Is the Liozna gezeh?
Deutsch's father is Brazilian, not Gezhe. He delivers to CH too, but mainly in BP, where Tomchei Shabbos supposedly had it covered....
Anon,
1) BZ Stock is, last I heard, very much alive and well, and should be till 180. His father Shimshon went to a Better Place on Purim.
2) Tomchei Shabbos has nothing to do with any of the Stocks. You're thinking of Simchas Shabbos Veyomtov. Completely different organisation.
3. Ein hakeimetz masbia es hoari. Neither Tomchei Shabbos nor Simchas Shabbos Veyomtov "has it covered". I give to both, but it doesn't surprise me that there are families whom neither reach.
R. Shochet was not a Hasid when he studied in Telz.Gutnick went there because of dayan Abramsky.Frankly the Bloch family put a great premium on the study of mussar (shiure daas) not seeing it as a ma bekach. As a matter of fact the gaon Reb Yosef Leib Bloch closed the yeshiva for a while rather than remove Mussar from the curriculum !
Excerpt from Rabbi Immanuel Schochet's Foreword to his Mystical Concepts in Chassidism:
"On several occasions when discussing mystical concepts of the Kabbalah and Chassidism with my father and teacher zllh"h he would recall an intersting incident. His first master, R. Joseph Leib Blocj, rabbiand rosh yeshivah of my father's native Telz, often referred to Kabalistic concepts in his ethical discourses. When the rabbi was challenged that these are ideas foreigbn to his listeners and often difficult to understand, he would reply: 'The neshamah understands'."
I heard from Rabbi I. Schochet that his father was born and raised in Telz, and was totally mekushar to RJLB, literally like a chasid to his rebbe, and would not undertake anything (including personal matters like his shiduch) without his rebbe's permission and blessing. He said that his first connnection to Chabad came through his rebbe's references to Tanya in the sheurei da'as, where he refers to the Tanya as "Tanya Kadisha," and found great similarities between his rebbe's machshavah and chabad. When he became close to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and eventually a Chabad chossid in the 50s or 60s, Telz in Cleveland, and especially R' Elye Meir Bloch z"l, were extremely upset, kind of regarding this as a betrayal. I heard many more details on this from the senior R. Schochet's grand-son, Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer (now in Monsey).
Carlebach from Montreal was a =Yekke/Telzer,
Shvei from Montreal was he related to R'Elya Svei? Were they Misnagdim or Lubavitchers.
ASk about the Belz battles with Machnovke and Rachmastrivke..
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Machnovka? Sure I know about that but was it in this generation? Before the war? Wasn't Belz a breakaway from Machnovka?
Rachmistrivka - enlighten me, or better don't.
Regardless, Belz over the past 20 years is not a hotbed of sinos chinom or machloikes - if anything they have been the victims of some renegades and hotheads from a certain community.
As I have been cited in this conversation, let me add that RJLB gave a chaburah in Tanya to the advanced students, including my grandfather.
OTOH, my grandfather asserted in a letter to the Rayatz that he didn't really meet and Lubavitchers until his sister married R' Hodakov (I believe that was in '38).
Rabbi dubov from manchester was the mashgiach in the Manchester Yeshiva, non-luba for 25 years, after leaving Riga. His grandchildren are shulchim, while some of his children didn't keep shabbos ect. Read agros kodesh of the 6th & 7th rebbe of lubavitch for more info. Rosh chodesh Av is his yorsitz, while his former talmidim annually go to his kever.
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