Those of you who know may know that the Kovetz Or Yisroel is probably the most important continuously published Rabbinic journal around. The Journal is published monthly for several years now, and is on the tables of most Rabbonim and Bnei Torah today. Topics of importance to today's Ben Torah - as well as all Yidden - are dissected and discussed, and issues are continuously argued, with good results. Some of the more famous issues taken apart there were the "Indian Sheitel" debacle, the "Worms in Water" fiasco, and the Boro Park Eruv uproar. Now they seem to have one of the most hot-button issues to date; they've decided to discuss the Artscroll Gemoroh; more importantly whether it's "permissible" to learn and study from the brown and blue volumes at all. If you're sitting at your computer and scratching your head, wondering why there would be a problem at all, allow me to make one thing clear: You're not Heimish.
In Heimishe circles - Kri Satmar - they're very worried about the source and Hashkofoh of the one who publishes seforim. Anybody who's accused of being sympathetic to Zionist or Agudist causes is Treif as are his seforim. It doesn't matter if his sefer is a work of monumental importance, if he doesn't halt mit di shittah then it's like a Sefer Torah SheKosvoy Min. Seforim from Mossad Harav Kook, including the Reshonim and Achronim that they published and revealed to the Torah World for the first time - all that is Treyf. Of course we're only speaking of the hard-core Kanoyim; most Bnei Torah have no problem with most of the above-mentioned Seforim. In most policy issues Satmar finds an ally in the Brisker Talmidim - the hardcore Briskers, those that take upon themslves all Minhogei and Hanhogos of Brisk. In New York one of the biggest Briskers around is Reb Leib Garelik, son of Reb Yeruchem Garelik of the Bronx, and brother of Reb Abba Garelik of South Fallsburg. Reb Leib seems to have found a home in Satmar circles - for a long time being a R"M/Rosh Yeshivah in Alexander Yeshivah, populated by many Satmar and satellite members.
What Reb Leib wants is to keep the Gemorroh out of the hands of the ignoramuses. After all, if everybody can learn a shtikkel Gemorroh just like him what then makes him a big Rosh Yeshivah. Yes, the BaaleBos needs help from Nosson Scherman & Co., but he still feels as if he's Shayech to it. He calls the people who translated the Shas people who have the gall (in the spirit of "Chutzpah Yasgei") to do what nobody in previous generations dared to do. They're in it for the business - even if their stated goal is to make it "easy to learn," and they're uprooting one of the Ikkarei HaDas! Torah was meant to toil on; if it comes easy then it becomes Sam HaMovess. Someone who derives pleasure from learning has the wrong idea; he needs to be Maymis Atzmoy, that's the only that the Torah has a Kiyum with him. Only regarding Mishnayos was it permitted to learn without toiling and understanding on your own, since Mishna is Piskei Halochos, which are important to know in order to live a life according to Torah. Not so with Talmud. Gemorroh was meant to learn and understand, and only through hard work, not by being handed a finished product.
Not for nothing, continues Rabbi Garelik, did every shtetl have a Chevra Ayn Yaakov, and Chayei Odom, and Chevra Ri"f; that was made for those who didn't have the time or intellectual capacity to learn Gemorroh the proper way - by working hard at it. Those people could fulfill the obligation of learning Torah by learning Halochos or Agaddata. If they'd have wanted them to learn Gemorroh with the big boys they too could've written a commentary on the Talmud. Only those lofty souls - those that G-d had granted the ability to learn the way it was meant to be - only they should be allowed to learn and understand the Talmud. Everybody else: stick to the Ayn Yakkov and to the Chayei Odom, and leave the Gemorroh to the big boys, guys like Garelik and his buddies. In other words: "!בלייב אן עם הארץ"
Tzig,
ReplyDeleteDo you really think that the idea of 'toil' to acquire Teiroh is so wrong? If someone uses ArtScroll as an entry into the world of Tlamud, maybe that's OK. But as a way of learning (which it has become), do you really think that is a positive development?
Or perhaps he is afraid that businessmen and professionals with their gleiche kep will realize he is full of baloney once they are able to plumb the depths of the Gemara without his krumkeit.
ReplyDeleteJust putting a theory out there. No need for anyone to twist up like a pretzel.
Someone on the blogs (can't remember where) there was a mention of a similar aid to learning Gemara published before the war.
Aside from the political issues at hand, one novelty of Artscroll Gemorahs (and Steinsaltz, for that matter) was the fact that they interwove explanation with the text. I don't think I've ever seen older sforim that do that.
ReplyDeleteAside from that, what's that difference between the way early meforshei hashas like Rashi, Ritvo, etc. explained the text and (lehavdil bein kodesh lechol/kodesh) Artscroll?
First Correction:
ReplyDeleteHis fathers name is R' Yeruchem Gorelick Zt"l which was a Ra"m in YU for many Years. He has a brother R' Moshe living in Monsey NY.
Second:
You should watch your language before you "wash yourself" to reb leib, He's known to be meimis atzmo pshuto kemashmo, learning thru the nights. Even if you don't agree with all he beleives. (I for one don't either) Hamavazeh talmud chochom ein trifah lemakoso.
And NO:
He didn't take his hashkofos from satmar, he came to alexsander yeshiva with his full baggage after learning 18 years in brisk.
And NO:
Those who know him can testify that he dosn't sell himself for the money. He's NOT afraid of losing the Businessmen
I never said he got his hashkofos from Satmar. Read it again. Sorry about the father's name confusion; the Yeshivah Zichron Moshe is what threw me off. I still don't get why he would say what he does; is it because he works so hard at learning that he doesn't fargin the Poshuter Yid the geshmak of finally understanding a blatt Gemoroh!!!
ReplyDeleteI still don't get why he would say what he does...
ReplyDeleteOne of his "Mivtzoyim" is his constant decry on the matzav of today's "Shikchas Hatorah", which he claims stems primarily from the lack of amelus bateirah..
So it's not that he dosn't fargin the "Poshuter Yid" the blettel gemoro, he can't stand the fact that this "poshuter yid" is paraded thru town as the latest talmud chochom, godul and posuk.
And the above is just another one of his rants on this "Mivtza"...
>>One of his "Mivtzoyim" is his constant decry on the matzav of today's "Shikchas Hatorah", which he claims stems primarily from the lack of amelus bateirah..
ReplyDeleteThis thought can be found in tens of places. What, really, is your problem.
>>So it's not that he dosn't fargin the "Poshuter Yid" the blettel gemoro, he can't stand the fact that this "poshuter yid" is paraded thru town as the latest talmud chochom, godul and posuk.
That is a problem. Poshuter yiddin think they can 'daven up' a blatt in English and are now equals with experts in the Torah. That's messed up.
"Reb Leib Garelik"
ReplyDeleteIs it R. Mordechai Leib perhaps ? Does he have a shtelleh somewhere ? Where in NY is he ?
Noch a zach.
You seem to be implying that Lubavitchers are okay with the Artscroll shas. But, if so, one can ask, how is it different than the Artscroll chumash, which Lubav. had taynos on, so they made their own. After all, does the Artscroll shas have the hagohos of the Rebbe ? Maybe there needs to be a Kayl Menachem Shas too !
I have never seen a Daf Yomi Yid paraded through town as a Talmid Chochom.
ReplyDeletebtw, consider the upside: kids that have no real ability to learn Gemara and previously would have taken abuse for it, been ridiculed, dropped to the bottom of the class, possibly gone on to be abusive or off the derech, can now casually read through the Artscroll, survive their school years, and go on to be ehrliche poshute yidden.
is there anywhere to find this piece from קובץ אור ישראל has anyone posted it somewhere
ReplyDeleteI'll post it soon, iy"h.
ReplyDeleteI would ossur art scroll for all those who consider themselves haimish/yeshivish and certainly for those say modern orthodox who learned how to learn at one point in life. for all else its ok.
ReplyDeleteI remember as an adult after spending 6 months in a BT yeshiva learning gemora say 3 or 4 hours a day that looking into artscroll made me sick. it was such a degredation of what we were learning, it was hardly even a shadow of the real thing, and I was learning at such an elemental level in the first place.
Hirshel
ReplyDeletei guess this rav gorelick never heard the expression "a tzig zulst do veren uber "Chasidus zulstu chazarin"
That's Tzibelle, not Tzig.
ReplyDeleteRav Garelik, do not fear
ReplyDeleteFirstly, "Yagdil Torah V'ya'adir"!!!!
Secondly, one cannot truly understand a blaat of yevomos (for example) without "haravania", even if it is read exclusivly on the English side.
my imagination tells that a very similar discussion went on when rebbi first compiled the mishnah or when the gemoroh was first published or when chassidus was stating to be written.... "eis lasois lahashem heifeiru toirosecho"
ReplyDeleteBH,Thanks to Artschroll and the Daf Yomi DVD I became a TC
ReplyDeleteArtscroll has its drawbacks (something too easy can easily "go in one ear and leave from the other"), however regarding the idea that learning should be without pleasure - it is wrong.
ReplyDeleteSee for example the introduction to Igley Tal, and the same statement like there was said in the name of the Baal Shem Tov.
Anyone who has opened an ArtScroll Gemorah has seen all the haskomas of all the gedolim. The first and longest haskomah is from RAS (HaRav Aharon Schchter), Rosh Yeshivas, Yeshivas Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin (CB), in Brooklyn, New York.)
ReplyDeleteRAS gives it his fullest haskomah and for a good reason. He was the key person who convinced Rav Shach NOT to come out against this project. I heard this some time ago from a very reliable and intimate source who is a farbrenter RAS chusid. He explained that the reason RAS went to such lengths to convince Rav Shach to allow ArtScroll to go ahead with its project is that it would help be marbeh Torah in the English speaking world of growing numbers of Baalei Teshuva, and of frum Balebatim with little time to learn, and that it would not be anything like the effort by Rav Adin Shteinsalz of Chabad whose works Rav Shach had assured berabim.
Because RAS had the koach to convince Rav Shach not to attack ArtScroll's Gemora project, it is RAS who gets pride of place and the right to write a lengthy haskomah for the whole project.
Now that Rav Shach is gone, people can try to get up and say things. But the birds have flown the coop. ArtScroll has completed the whole Hebrew-English project of Bavli, they are working to complete the Hebrew edition, they started translating into French and Russian and are now working on a Hebrew-English Yerushalmi.
It's doubtful they ever had Satmar or Brisker or Lubavitcher customers in mind. Satmars are busy deifying the Divrei Yoel. Briskers have long put Chidushei Rabbi Chaim and the Chidushei HaGriz at the center of all their lomdus and learning. And Lubavitchers have plenty of the Rebbe's Iggros and Kesavim to read in all languages, not to mention that TANYA was long ago published in a mivtza to translate it into the shivim leshoines. So none of these groups really care about what ArtScroll publishes and it's surprising that anyone from those camps would get worked up about it.
In any case, in CB itself, the ArtScroll is NOT used either! No bochur is permitted to use it in either the high school mesivta or bais medrash yeshiva. They never allowed the use of the Soncino Talmud and for yeshivaleit to use the ArtScrool is just as big a no-no. It would be a busha for a so-called Lamden and Talmid Chochem in Kollel to walk in with an ArtScroll gemora under his arm, but for his father to go to a shiur for balebatim with it, it would be ok.
Of course, noone can know what bochurim do at home, but it's unlikely that the good ones even think of using it because in yeshiva they learn sugyas ever so ssslllooowwwlllyyy and with at least ten rishonim, twenty achronim and whatever else is squeezed into the "Otzar Kovetz Meforshim" that all the bochurim and yungeleit use like a "Bible."
But for balebatim or anyone not part of the yeshiva system ArtScroll, with its "elucidated" pirush just based on Rashi with a few very brief additional comments from a small selection of meforshim in notes at the bottom of pages, it's a very much encouraged tool, and that's why RAS begged Rav Shach to allow it to be printed.
Not only that, but they say that RAS gets every new book put out by ArtScroll, not just its Gemoras, but all it's Jewish books in English and he puts them on his seforim shrank for the world to see that he personally approves of ArtScroll and everything they do.
This is a very complex issue and there are many sides to the various points made.
ReplyDeleteIndeed what happened to the Ein yaakov Yid who really was baki in Agados, What happened to our Mishnayith Yid who I have heard from European rabbonim were conversant with Mishna but knew no gemora , but KNEW Mishnayith. What happened to out Thillim Yidden whose wailing must have poeled yeshouth some where ?
Is it better to have masses learn Shaas and understand by your account very little or better to have shiurim in Ein yaakov, Mishna Chai Odom , Mussar etc that the olam really understood ?
On the other hand the Talmud should be open to all, including Baale Teshuva in Lubavitch ( a numnber of middle aged BT who became BT in their twenties I met had never learnt gemora until they bought an Artscroll!).
Ameilah in Torah is another impt thing . can we boil down Torah to saying Ketores is it davening where we rattle off the words ?
Or is learning a melocha.
Elsewhere in the Algemeiner many years ago I wrote about the culture of Talmud thta dominated East European jewish life but few Jews (frum) actually studied gemore, most studied Chumas, rashi, Midrash Eyn yaakov, Mussar, Kizzur vechuli.
Who knows which is the correct path. Onlt time will tell.
Now just imagine, that Rabbi Hodakov would publish the few Mesorah books back in the 50's...
ReplyDelete