A Reader Writes:
"In the '30s the Zeirei Agudah arranged a boat ride once a year on Lag B'Omer for Bochurim and girls from Heimishe Mishpachos to come together and meet. When Reb Leizer Silver, ZT'L, heard about it, he went ballistic. He approached the baal habos, a Mr. Feigenbaum, who was arranging this outing and told him that it is absolutely assur. Mr. Feigenbaum explained to Rav Silver that with all the Yidden going off the derech, the other option would be that these kids would go to bars to meet members of the opposite sex. The result would be that many would, Chas V'Sholom, marry goyim. Reb Laizer heard what Mr. Feigenbaum had said, but he still felt very strongly that it was assur to hold this boat ride. However, he agreed to go to a din torah.
They went to Reb Shlomo Heiman, ZT'L. First Reb Leizer Silver screamed for a while about how this boat ride is assur. Then Mr. Feigenbaum explained his reasoning. Reb Shlomo put his hand on his chin, closed his eyes, and did not move for 45 minutes! Then he said 'Nisht nor men meg, men muz!'A few years ago an older gentleman told this story to Reb Malkiel Kotler. Rabbi Kotler replied that, 'It can't be true!' The older gentleman replied loudly, 'Chuchik! ('Young child') You don't know what went on with Yiddishkeit in those days! Out of my whole class at Chaim Berlin, I was the only one who remained Shomer Shabbos!'The end of the story is that Mike Tress found his shidduch on that boat ride, and so did Rav GEDALIAH SCHORR. Reb Laizer Silver was a big kanoi, but after he had confronted Mr. Feigenbaum, who had arranged for the boat ride, he was maskim to go with him to a din torah!"
What do we learn from this story? I'm not sure, really. I doubt the RGS part of the story simply because I think he was past the "Zeirei" stage, he was a ben-torah already, but maybe. Even if he did go on mixed boat rides does that negate his later achievements? of course not. Truthfully, I'm uncomfortable even writing about this, simply because I don't want any of you to think that I'm some kind of mudslinger.
(Reb Gedalia as a Bochur outside Torah VoDaas)
61 comments:
Gevaltige Story! It actually teaches us that not every shmo can do whatever they want - in the name of kiruv - without asking Daas Torah. Unfortunately a lot of kiruv workers in ALL camps, are 'amei haaratzim' and pasken shailos chamuros vi es iz git far zei.
Nice picture. Can you identify anyone?
can you verify Rav Gedalya Schorr? Does his son Rav Avrohom know about this?
Rav Malkiel has swallowed the revisionist history Koolaid
I want to analyze why you bring this story, what's in it for you and the 'cult'?
History for histories sake?
Maybe.Could be that by you a 'readers' third hand story of something that took place more than 73 years ago, totally unverified gets called 'history'?Maybe.Lubabs have some problems with 'history', true.
Probably you thought you could raise the Getschkeh (u guys believe that u raise yourselves by lowering others,after all)by making R'Kotler,Chaim Berlin R'GEDALYA SCHORR (yeah, you had in capitals so we get the message)look bad.You have your Lubab readers who will believe any crud about the snags, you have your Satmar illiterates you look upon your cruddy blog as 'aufgeklert'
Have fun.
Sorry that you haven't convinced many people (yet) that he wasen't a moshiach sheker and that many Lubabs do not deify him.
actually, Chaim, the caps was in the original message, but whatever.
I was thinking about that point, that it makes certain rabbonim look bad, but i decided to post it anyway, because it shows other important points, points you don't have to cerebral capacity to understand.
anonymous 1:09
I think the old Rov is Rav Aron Walkin, Rov of Pinsk.
Yeah.
Like what points can you 'learn' from unverified and baloney history?
Do we know that this story EVEN took place???
You are just a feeble minded Lubab
No surprise that you guys cannot learn you have zero critical skills.
P.S Can we have a rerun of the story with your pathetic friends mother and R'Kaminetsky?
If you know what America was like in those days , you realize this is true history. And there is nothing wrong with it. As I wrote on this blog several months ago until the late 1970's there was not a Yeshivaish community in the US to speak of. In the whole country there were less than 300 guys sitting and learning , and I think in fact even less. The details are something else. As I wrote to the gentlemen who sent this story around cyber space, it does not sound like Rabbi Silver. Silver was not a kanoeh and was a communal rav in places like Springfield, MA and Harrisburg, PA who knew his customers. Me thinks his name was inserted as a representation of a n old world rav.
Rumor has it that his reason for coming to America from Rav Chaim Ozer's kibbutz was for an .... shidduch...
If you ever read the zichrenes published in book form in Hebrew of Dr. Avrohom Gutin a Tamim who was nischametz (R. Zalman Shimon Z"L was meyid that the book is 100% authentic) you will see the romances of another chashuve lady in Lubavitch life and it did not involve shadchonim either and this was going on in Rostov ... Perhaps they should of had boat trips down the Don River too ...
calling rav malkiel chuchik is a direct ticket to hell.
I guess he'll have lotsa lubob company foe being mevaze talmidei chachomim.....
great story, can we get real confirmation on the shorr part of it??
Tzig, that was a beutiful story. Chabadzkers are well known for making up great true stories.
By the way the story runs very well with the derech of the 'cult'; "Sacrifice judaisim, to save judaisim".
B"H I dont either have the cerebral capacity to understand your twisted points, as most of us dont. I guess one must be reform or a chabadzker to comprehend.
Oh, another thing, Im sure alot of us are curious: besides for the mandatory picture in your wallet and car, how many more pictures of the avodah zara do you have?
Mike Tress never met his wife on a boa,but it is true that ZAI had boatrides,so that people would not go,to the Young Israel mixed dances,also the story could not be with Rav Leizer silber,because he was a known liberal
RMK's reaction is typical of the yeshivishe world right now,reactionary and not thinking at all about if the other side is possible
Chinyok
Malkiel talmid chochom? Rebishe Einikel thats it
As I have mentioned before, my family has been in America since the early 1920’s. Rav Gedalya Schorr was very close to my Grandfather from their Torah Vodath days. I am not at all surprised that Zerie had mixed events. I do not believe that RGS meet his wife on such an outing. Firstly, RGS was even then somewhat Chassidish. In any event, my grand mother, who got married in 1930 meet a few different boys (all prominent names). They were all set up, and as old family letters make clear, it wasn’t just any old boy you meet situation. RGS DID have mixed seating by his wedding, as was told to me personally by attendees of that wedding.
Mike Tress'es wife came from such a frum family that only milchigs was served at the wedding and there was no mixed seating at his wedding.This is all in the book They called him Mike
My grand father and my wife's grand father met their wives in the boat 1912 and 1913.
So the Tzig himself 'doubts' the story about R'G S is true.Ok.If so what makes the rest of the story any more reliable?Vayl azoi?
As Schneour has correctly said already R'Leizer Silver does not fit into the mayseh at all, another reason to be sceptical about it.
Btw, it would probably be a good idea if they did this boat thingee in todays Crown Heights, there are so many kids running around quite clueless and with full throttle hormones.And no, unlike the Tzig I'm not accusing the serious yeshiva boys of this, I'm talking about the many young kids who are not learning..
Don't the results of the boat ride speak for themselves?
My in-laws met at a young-Israel lag-baomer picnic, and boy am I glad that they did :)
anon 9:03
rav malkiel shlita is a godol hador in torah AND midos. fact. do you know anyone else who can share a crown with three others and be best friends with all?
unlike the messiah from brooklyn who sidelined the rashag to get him out of the way. the rashag always came to rmm sichos and rmm never went to his even though they were supposed to share the rebistive... and that is how rmm put the rashag out of buisininess and was mevatel eating shalosh seudos because that was when the rashag spoke... the rashag was a GENUINE chosid so he stuck around instead of starting a fight after he was knocked out of buisiness... that too is gadlus on the part of rashag.
RGS may have been a Bochur in that picture, but he was around 25, and was ALREADY GIVING A SHIUR in TV at the time. He was in the yearbook as the REBBE of the class, not a member! As a kid, I sold numerous copies of this picture. Doubt were cast on the veracity of the picture, and I one of RGS sons write on the back of the picture that this is his father. He told me when it was from.
“Mike Tress'es wife came from such a frum family that only milchigs was served at the wedding and there was no mixed seating at his wedding. This is all in the book They called him Mike”
What is your point? It was once considered acceptable for marriageable age boys and girls to meet. Certainly in the time of Chazal that was the method of marriage. Were they less frum than today? So even a very frum family may have accepted it.
I do not know if MT had no mixed seating by his wedding. But if he did it was an anomaly. There was no such a concept in America at the time. Nor was it all that common in Europe, for a different reason. Wedding in Europe were not the lavish affair that they are today, nor did ladies dance.
The expressions "screaming" and "screaming for a while" are not befitting the behaviour of any Jew, and describing the actions of Gedolim in such a way is a Bizoyon Talmid Chochom and an affront to the Torah.
This is insensitive and crude language. Clearly, if HaGaon HaRav Eliezer Silver Z'TL was your grandfather you would never elucidate any of his actions in such terms - why then is it suddenly mutar to demean K'vod HaTorah and basic K'vod Habrios in such a way?
"He went ballistic" is also a totally unacceptable phraseology to any sensitive frum Jew describing a Godol b'yisroel.
Rav Gedalia Schorr did NOT find his shidduch on a boat ride!! His Rebetzin came from Detroit specifically to meet him. They met when she came to NY to see her brother R' Laibel Isbee off when he went to learn in the Mir.
Mike Tress did not meet his wife on a boat 100 percent false.
At that point in time there was no "heimish mishpachos" like today. Everyone even the gur frumeh went to college and not toruo no i mean mixed college so being in a setting with girls was not totally foreign. Also the enviroment and the culture at that time cant be compared to today and can probably not be understood by someone from today. the purity of then makes a mixed boat ride something much less of a pritzus than it would be today
Even if these emesdige tzadikim and gedole yisroel did meet their zivugim on that boat ride, so what? Halevai we should walk on the street every day with such pure machshoves that they had on that boat ride.
"rav malkiel shlita is a godol hador in torah AND midos"
And you can find 100 rabbonim who will sign to it.
The Tzig wants people to believe the sanitized Lubab versions of 'history', about Berlin,'bout Paris, about taking a son-in-law without a beard (wonder vehr iz gevain der shadchan)but mouths off about R'G.S.
I never for a second believed his 'history', but where is the basic mentlichkait? You defend your own by mouthing off about others?
Volvy
the story was all over the net before it was sent to me. It was probably put up by some Mo guy. So please, put a sock in it.
By the way, the Horensteins lived far away.
HEY guys. Live the present! Do what's right and ehrlich. You're not taking a horse and buggy to work, and don't date like 75 years ago - (if it ever happened that way). A kitzur these yidden turned out to be tzaddikim and 'we' are on the internet knocking them. The bottom line is that the dating scene today IS A SHREK - PERIOD. The Boro Parkees, Flatbushers meigen zich shemen. Genig gezugt.
In regard to Twistleton my point was verify the facts before you write stories.There has to be accountability to the facts.Also ZAI had boat rides after consultation with rabbonim litvish,chassidish,and im sure lubavitch.Actually his wife comes from a lubavitch family from Philly bagry.R jacobson zl of chabad grew up in there house,he writes about it in his zicrhonos.Mrs tress's father kesovim on chassidus are in chabad "borrowed". and still not returned after many requests.The family is now fervently anti chabad because of chabad's move toward moshaicsm
Yo
Your guys with the long beards, out in Iowa, seem to be getting lots of press.Seems that covering up does not help.Some major stink job apparently.
Interesant to not that some guy once said on their ilk 'inzereh ziburis iz beser fin zeyereh idis'.I knew that there were problems amongst the nonlubab, but aren't we going overboard?This ziburus beser that nonlubab idis??!.Nah.Stam crud I guess.
Keep on covering up, please!
seems like "my guys" in Iowa are helped out by "your guys" from Monsey, farshteyst?
moron.
'By the way, the Horensteins lived far away.'
So 'twas a shidduch!!
,NU..Vee azoi nemt mehn an eydem oon a boord?? Spezial vehn mehn shraibyt an amaratsishe brief/pashkevil vee geferlech ess iz far anash to sheren deym boord? (Ehr paselt zeyer shechiteh,afelieh)
Far gelt ken mehn oopkoifen a soineh betzah!.
KAJ hobben gehat di seychel avek tse pitzen feen azah krankeh betel
"In regard to Twistleton my point was verify the facts before you write stories"
Hu. Which facts should I verify. Everything I wrote was told to ME PERSONALY by some one there (usualy my Grandmother). Since my GM passed away, I could not ask her about Mike Tress, which is why i DID NOT WRITE ABOUT THAT. You have besmirched the honored name of Twistelton-Twistelton, something for which there is no mechial without asking for it.
yes you ARE a mud slinger.
why then do you have your blog?
The Horensteins may have been far away, but where was the chosson.
Anon of 2:44 (Tzig, when are you going to ban anonymous comments?): What will you do when your daughter comes home one day with a boy who's shomer mitzvos, but dresses like a hippy and has hair longer than hers? Or worse still, what if he's a Lubavitcher a meshichist, yellow pin and all? Will you throw her out of the house? Boycott the chasseneh? Pay some "gedolim" to ban the wedding and then pay some lady-gayers to demonstrate outside the hall?
Millhouse,
I can tell you that I really don't know what I would do in the second case. What would you do? But I think that I would NOT disown her as long as SHE was not an Oved Avoda Zara.
"'The end of the story is that Mike Tress found his shidduch on that boat ride"
Pure baloney - Mike Tress was my grandfather and he met my grandmother[who is still alive amu"sh] at the textile factory where he was foreman and she worked for hm and was introduced to him by another employee.
I don't know about the rest of the story but if it's as accurate as this detail - it's pure fabrication.
if I have you here; Can you tell what your zeide's relationship with Moshe Sherer was????
they were first cousins - Mikes Mother and Moshe Sherer's mother were sisters with a last name of Bagry.
Mike encouraged him to join Zeirei and then help him out with rescue efforts etc.
My parents met at the Agudah office, both volunteering for the hatzolo efforts. their chasene was separate seating, and if I am not mistaken there was a mechitzah. my father is a close talmid of mr. mendelowitz and a musmach of torah v'daas. the girls and women sure did dance at the chasene, we have the film to prove it.
Mike Tress was a cousin of Sherer, not a brother in law/ save that parsha for another time..
mike was our mechuten, and was responsible for my father's yeshiva education, and the z'chus of my father's entire chassidishe family-including shluchim,bonim uvnei bonim in the service of the Rebbe, is in Mike Tress' zchus.
milhouse, I like the expression lady-gayers.
Hirshel,let me clarify a few points.Mike Tress was a executive at the textile concern,not a foreman.Mike's wife's maiden name was Bagry.The Tress family cared for Mrs sherer zl a aunt,who moved in to Mike's mother's apartment attached to the tress house.M sherer was mike's younger cousin who was learning in
Ner Yisroel and was recruited by Mike.I remember Mike and I miss him.Our dor would look diffrent if our askanin where askanim lshem shomaim for the clal and not for their ulterior motives.
I know this sounds a bit extreme. My grandparents did not meet on the boat but if not for Hitler I never would have been born (because my boba & zeida would have stayed in Poland and been gassed
I grew up in Rav Silver's ZTL shul. This story just does not describe him at all. Read Rabbi Rekeffet-Rothkoff's "The Silver Era" for a more accurate background. One of the reasons R. Rothkoff wrote the book was that RJBS modeled his early foray into rabbonus on Rabbi Siver.
"and was responsible for my father's yeshiva education, and the z'chus of my father's entire chassidishe family-including shluchim,bonim uvnei bonim in the service of the Rebbe, is in Mike Tress' zchus."
Shouldnt that be "in the service of HASHEM"!!!! And you wonder why we wonder...
Twistlton
Emuna in a Rebbe didn't start in 770 it just ended their. I saw lately Karelitz the former Degel Mayor of BB saying in a interview that he is serving on a shelichus mission from Rav Shach, and as the usual litvishe Yehirus he is saying that in the real world my field is to be a Rosh Hakolel but Maran told insisted that I should get in to askonas field( as usual we didnt have the zechia that Maran wrote a teshuva because he is beyond Torah since he is the Etzem Hatorah)
“Twistlton
Emuna in a Rebbe didn't start in 770 it just ended their. I saw lately Karelitz the former Degel Mayor of BB saying in a interview that he is serving on a shelichus mission from Rav Shach, and as the usual litvishe Yehirus he is saying that in the real world my field is to be a Rosh Hakolel but Maran told insisted that I should get in to askonas field( as usual we didn’t have the zechia that Maran wrote a teshuva because he is beyond Torah since he is the Etzem Hatorah)”
One of the best (of many) parts about not being Chassidish is that you don’t have to follow a party line!!!! That being said, I would have much less of a problem with some one saying that he is doing a specific act as shlicus for the Rebbe (such as opening a Chabad House in Alaska) as opposed to this case where someone said that the entire family is “in service to the rebbe”. Since it said “including Shluchim”, one can infer that they were referring to the general frumness of the family.
Rav Gedalia Schorr met his wife on a shidduch when he was 27. At the time of this story, he was not merely a maggid shiur, he took over Rav Shlomo Heiman's shiur--the highest shiur in the yeshiva--at the time he was 27. In fact, he is the ONLY contemporary quoted by Rav SHlomo in Rav Shlomo's sefer. The story concerning RGS is a bubbe maasesh and a disgrace. He was the son of a chashuve Sadigurere chossid and there is NO way he would have done such a thing. Bottom line is: he did not meet his wife in this way. Its motzi shem rah on one of the great gedolim and tzadikim of the last generation.
Shmuel is correct. I will elaborate on his post and my earlier one.
Rebbetzin Shifra Schorr A"H grew up in Detroit. Her brother R' Laibel Z"L (father of R' Yitzchok Z"L) was a talmid OF Rav Gedalia ZT"L. (Albeit, several years older.) He would come home for bain hazmanim, and all he could talk about was his Rebbi. She decided that she was going to marry him.
When R' Laibel left to go to the Mir, she came to NY to see him off at the boat. That's how they met.
So, you see they actually did meet at a boat.
"At the time of this story, he was not merely a maggid shiur, he took over Rav Shlomo Heiman's shiur--the highest shiur in the yeshiva--at the time he was 27. In fact, he is the ONLY contemporary quoted by Rav SHlomo in Rav Shlomo's sefer."
Are you sure about the above numbers ? I believe RGS z"l was born circa 1910 (he was niftar 5739/1979 at age of 69). R. Shlomo Heiman z"l was niftar in 1944 I believe. So why would RGS take over his shiur at age of 27? I know RSH was ill before he was niftar, but in 1937 ? Some of the details here may be off the mark.
IIRC RGS was born in 1918.
R' Hirshel, you are wrong. His brother R' Yankel Z"L was born in 1918. He was born in Cheshvan of 5671. 1910
Sorry, I left this part out. R' Snag, He didn't take over RSH's shiur until after he came back from Kletzk. However he was a maggid shiur at the age of 21. Early 1930s
Avrumik - Why would RGS take over RSH's shiur in תּרצ"ט when he left Europe right before the war ? R. Slaymeh was already so sick, over five years before he was niftar ?
http://kevarim.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/rabbi-raphael-chaim-shlomo-heiman/
What I said was, he took over the shiur in late 39 or early 40 after he came back. He had a different shiur (I believe one under) much earlier.
R. Malkiel knows very well what went on in America. He himself attended the Lakewood day school which was mixed boys and girls.
Mazel tov to R. Malkiel on his promotion to a godol.
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