Panim el Panim, January, 1961
On this, Memorial day in these United States, let us remember the battles that were fought here on the shores of America, between two unlikely groups of soldiers or fighters - The Satmar and Kluj, aka Klausenberg sects, using nothing but stick, stones, graffiti, and an occasional firebomb. What? you didn't know that there were battles fought in the hard-nose streets of Brooklyn in the 50's and 60's? And they involved frum Jews fighting amongst themselves? There's nothing very novel about these altercations, they're quite traditional, actually. Some people would say that it's mandatory; if you have no history of fighting then your group hasn't been initiated into the Chassidic fraternity. When you confront them about the violent history then don't apologize; they're proud of their heritage. After all, it's a rite of passage, no need to feel sorry for it. Damage of property, Mesirah, damage of persons, all that doesn't matter, it's the tradition that does. He/they had it coming.
Why then is this any different than any of the other incidents? It's simple. This was taken to another low. They basically followed the Klausenberger Rov to Yerushalayim and harassed the man who lost a wife and 11 kids to the Nazis just a bit more. In case he still hadn't had enough on this world. Yes, there were plenty of Satmarer and Kanoyim there before he came to spend Shabbos there, but this wasn't Williamsburg, they couldn't claim this as Satmar territory. This, I believe, was unprecedented. The Satmar Rov had left Yerushalayim 15 years before and the whole landscape of the city had changed. Despite carrying the title as Nosi of the Edah he was obviously not physically in charge there. The Edah HaCharedis could no longer claim to be the sole authority, since so many other groups - like Ger, Belz and others - didn't belong there anymore. Why then was a local argument based in Brooklyn transplanted 6000 miles away? The fact that it made it into the papers only worsened things.
Why am I writing about this now? I wish I knew.
UPDATE: The Satmar Rov was the Klausenberger's uncle in the latter's first marriage. He was a son in law of the Atzei Chaim of Sighet - Rav Chaim Tzvi Teitelbaum - who passed away in 1926, and who's son's coronation as Rav of Sighet - as a teenager, was chronicled in the newspapers of his day and In this here blog as well. Schon in שוחרי השם בהרי הקרפטים says that after the AC's passing some wanted to take his younger brother - Reb Yoel Teitelbaum - as interim Rov, until the young Zalmen Leib - oldest son of the AC - could come of age, but his mother wouldn't have it. She would not allow her BIL near the town! The Rebbetzin was the daughter of Reb Shulem Lazer'l of Ratzfert, son of the Divrei Chaim of Sanz. I guess she knew that no Rov would ever walk away from such a Choshuve Rabbonus shtelle, even her BIL. So, maybe the animosity had something to do with events 35 years before....
Water under the bridge...
115 comments:
probably because you read dovid kamenetzkys piece in the new yeshurun about the shulchan aruch harav and decided to lay off the"snags"
Rav Kook's maternal grandfather who influnced him in Hasidism was Chabad and chosid of the Tzemach Tzedek, one of the Chabad Rebbes met Rav Kook, R' Noah (not the Chazon Ish)had to get a haskumuh from Rav Bengis of the Eydah, hence the hatred to the eydah, right?
Remind the 'Vaks about how both Rebbes were related somehow through the first marriage or something.
The world doesn't generaly incrimnate both of those Rebbes for the actions of their ruly Hasidim, but the world, for some reason, blames the Rebbe for Meshichism, it is a double standard fuled by anti-chabad hatred, right?
Ner Yisroel,
You are being disingenious. The Rebbe dropped many hints that he was moshiach. When a woman gives him a petition that he should reveal himself as moshiach and he accepts it without protest, that as good as claiming that he's moshiach. I believe that if someone would have pulled that stunt on the Beis Yisroel of Ger, he would have received a good smack in the face (albeit not if that was a woman).
Anyway, everyone justifiably blames the Satmerer Rov for that machlokes, for aside from his gadlus and tzidkus, he had a reputation as a baal machlokes since his days in Europe.
Otherwise, I miss those old Panim el Panim magazines. They knew how to publish loshon hara tastefully.
Reb yoelish wasnt the nosi of eide chareidis. he was the gayve"d ( moro deasro ). he groomed minchas yitzchok to be the gayved after him. the next satmer rebbe, reb moishe was given the title of nosi of the eyde
AA
You have to better than that clip from Gil's webstie or youtube. That lady looked like she was high on something. Maybe too much bittul. Who knows
Thanx
If Sighet was such a chushuvuh shteler, how did R' Moshe get the name Sigheter?
Just read part of a book from a yid who was in the lager with R' Moshe and stood next to him when the Russians bayrayed it. Whatever
"Why then was a local argument based in Brooklyn transplanted 6000 miles away?"
A fight about Zionsim should stay mainly in Brooklyn right?
You know nothing about the fight, right?
right
stick to Ner Izzy politics
'You know nothing about the fight, right?
right
stick to Ner Izzy politics'
Someone is still mad that he lost a debate earlier, right?
right
probably because you read dovid kamenetzkys piece in the new yeshurun about the shulchan aruch harav and decided to lay off the"snags"
Anon11:31:00 PM
Please tell us what was in Kaminetzky's piece.I love his work.
tzig didn't look at yeshuerun!
kamenetzkys work is so briliant any trying to recap is a lost cause... u must c 4 urself!!!
tzigele,
what exactly is the יוצא מן הכלל
?
both sides were mostly holacaust survivors. the shlegers in yerushalayim included.
how about retzichah of closing the kitchen to yesomim for the חטא of going to the satmere ruv's tish on shevoues??
An Almiesher
The Rebbe protested many times in front of thousands of chasidim,but he was not ready to follow exactly your whim when he he to shame a woman ( maybe the Beis Yisroel would do it) he was not geared up for that, I believe he tought she is a erliche yidisher tochter and no Kefira involved , Obviously he should have learn Emuna by the jewish thelogian Berger.
MAL
if u would understand the Willi culture in that Reb Yoilish era, that whatever the Satmars degraded was persona non grata, they could take a name like siget and pull it thru the trashes.Moshe Tietelbaum and his family was chazer Trief then
Nhare
Reb Yoel was first the nosi and afterwards he send evenmore mullah so he became rov,It wasn't the big teshuvahs that he wrote, check out the facts.
Ner Yisroel
what exactly r u talking about, Kook, Bengis, eide hacharadis, Haskama????
what a "mechayeh"
we have the new chaim shaulson
tziggy keep it up great job!
Shoulson is gold near this Gypsy
I hope that, due to all the negative feedback from the snags, Tzig has realized that he should be sensitive to them, and instead go after a thicker-skined bunch.
I don't think Shaulsohn is worse the Der yid , Der Blatt isreali Yated,the difference is only they are covering their own Tinofes and exposing the other guy tinifes( heard from Harav Lebowitz of Woodridge)while Shaulsohn is exposing both sides at once.
Tzig
You should of mention that Amrom Blau denied that he was behind the black shabos massacare, and it was just a intrafamily turf war, who should be the zulu leader of the Lepkes and the Yakobowits of Siget/ Nasod tribe.
1) to nahare
There was a petition to make him ruv in32/33 after Rav Zonnenfeld ZY"O was niftar.
2) to "all"
The Kloizenberger ZT"L opened his mouth.
R' Yidel Rosenberg was his man in the DP camps. When Satmar Ruv ZY"O came he left. Big Insult!
R' Moishe Blum went (back) to Bobov. The Kloizenberger was insulted and opened his mouth there as well. The Bobovers (who were also ba'alei machlokes before the war) had become peace-lovers in America, and chose not to respond. R' Moishe Blum was later meshadech with the Bobover.
"You know nothing about the fight, right?
right
stick to Ner Izzy politics"
Right. Since some didn't know about it, you were ohver on Loshon Horoh, right? You didn't learn the lesson from the Nazi photos, right?
Am I the only one who sees a patern in the SR relationships? Think about it:
1. His admired godol the Michas Elazar
2. His protege and nephew the Klausenburger
3. His beloved son in law the Sassover
4. His nephew and groomed successor the Sigheter
Very similar end of relationships.
Anon,
What kind of language is this on the Klausenburger "opened his Mouth"
Why is the Satmar rov ZYA and the Klausenburger only ZTL ?
BTW where was the holy of the holiest Reb Yoelish zy"a when the klauenburger was building Mikvoas(Read Huteres of Bobov Book) and learning torah with bochurim out of the ghettos and marrying off couples etc.. in the DP camps there were no big tischen to lead yet, it was the real mesiras nefesh for torah. Where was the holy of the holiest??
Ner Izzy
there's no Issur LH here, since you still didn't get it...
Yumy
why the need to stoop sop low? tell me who YOUR zeides were! Mine were fine Jews.
Ner Izzy
"there's no Issur LH here, since you still didn't get it..."
You were brought up to be glib when you have no substative answer, it is a pattern, right?
I wonder what Lazer Ginsberg would've publically said about this fight? Would he blame it on Divine retribution?
Ner Yisroel
"what exactly r u talking about, Kook, Bengis, eide hacharadis, Haskama????"
I will give the honor to the baal loshon horoh/blog master himself, it says migagelen zichus al yeday zakay, right?
Ner Yisroel,
Right?
Go ask your Rebbe.
Ner Yisroel,
Right?
"Go ask your Rebbe."
You don't know if my Rebbe is dead or a aliv, but it doesn't make a difference, I can ask him regardless, right?
All you mechutzafim better stop
writing negative about the satmar rav
see what harav segal from england,rav avigdor miller
brisker rav,rav aron kotler
and many others said about
the greatness of the satmar rav
Listen shoulson/tzig
you have overstepped any borders you ever had(if any)
you should be ashamed of youself
shoulson/tzig
shame on you
you are so low
if you keep it up you will leave a
legacy like shoulson c"v
just so I know:
You people are angry because of what I wrote or because of the comment about Skver I allowed?
"Yumy
why the need to stoop sop low? tell me who YOUR zeides were! Mine were fine Jews."
You are the one in the gutter attacking all sorts of others.Examples:Your bs past about Shanchai which cursed out real Torah leaders, your nasty comment about R'Ginsberg, your beneath the belt attacks against the Squarer community.
These few examples are enough to prove an eirev rav ancestry.There are many more.
oh, ok. Yum. Thanks.
I speak for myself:You have yourself published astonishing accusations against world class Jewish leaders.For example the Shanghai post.The Skverer post was disrespectful, but not on the same gutter level.The comment using names and allowing horrible allegations totally beyond the pale.
All this while you are supposedly "defending" Lubavitch.
This is eirev rav.Sorry
Yumy
the only names that were used was Tauber, and that seemed to me that it was not לגנאי, meaning the poster said that they were wrongfully banished for no reason
am I wrong?
(The Shanghai letters spoke for themselves)
Its your post thats upsetting
tell me
1) where you're coming from (Satmar, perhaps?)
2) what you find upsetting most
Anon
"brisker rav,rav aron kotler"
what did they say about Satmar Rov exactly?
Who is your source Gelbman the Yellow historian?
I am not satmar in fact i am vizsnits
i know how the satmars treated the imrei chaim
i know how they treated my rebbe in monsey
how ever the SR in not at fault he did not know ,in fact he once didnt daven in his shul for a full week until a person who was mezalzel in the tzelemer rav went to ask mechilah
but he was not always aware of all the shaygats shtick done in his name
therefor its upsetting to see you blaming him basedon some theory...
The Shanchai letters did not speak for themselves at all.All that was stated was a one sided version of a dispute over money, you turned it into a Je Accuse against leaders of the Yeshiva world where you allowed comments accusing them of causing Lubavitch boys to starve to death!
You grudgingly allowed some posters to debunk the lie when an astute post mentioned that thank God, only one Lubavitch bochur succumbed and he died of illness, not starvation (and even his name was posted), as he apparently was ill in Europe already, besides for the fact that a FEW of the Mirrer succumbed there to.Do you want people to publish one sided dirt on Lubavitch?
Yumy
Did the litvak specify not to give food for the chabad bochurim or for the Amshinover? yes or no? did Hirshel invent it?
Anon
The satmar rov was busy with every Rebbes sins, he knew exactly whats happening in Ger , Belz and visnitz but didn't know what happened under his nose, don"t sell me the Brooklyn bridge.
Don't talk to me if you are anonymous!
Tzig,
Why is it that your world almost exclusively revolves around Lubavitch vs its "enemies"?\
All your posts almost touch around these themes.For example your point about feeling Golus could have been made even better without resorting to stab against Ginsberg,right?
Your post here about the Satmer against Klausenberg again takes a stab against the Satmar "enemy"(of interest is that I believe you claimed to related to Satmar yet you love attacking them another similarity to Shoulson who always relished attacking his "snag" relatives)
Shaghai
Etc
Etc.
Why can't you ever have general interest uplifting stories?Do you have no interests besides for Lubavitch vs "enemies" (again the similarity to Shoulson who only became an active Lubavitcher in his adulthood and when he needed them for refuge, but once he took it up in earnest he was their best attack dog against the perceived Lubavitcher "enemies")
For example, lately, a man who is an only child after seventeen years of marriage(!)has merited to see his great grandchild have a grandson.Why would you not blog about this almost unheard of occurence?Besides for the man involved being one of the leading Torah authorities and the rest of the grandfathers of similar caliber and besides for this miracle of rebirth where a single person merits to literally see the promise of descendants "kechol hayom".This is of no interest ,right?
Yumy
contrary to popular belief I don't sit all day and scan the internet for "juicy" stories. I don't know what you're talking about a man - no children - seeing grandchildren. Where would I have seen it? why would I write about it?
I see that you're a recent addition to my legions of fans and readers. Welcome! I've written plenty and plenty of non-Lubavitch/Snag/Satmar related stories.
I've been doing this for over 4 years. Take a look back.
A man who's parents had no children for 17 years.He is a ben yochid.He just merited to see his GREAT GRANDCHILD have a Grandson.I.e dor shishi.
He is also a leading Torah authority.
Don't tell me you have no idea who I'm speaking about.
It's true that there has not been massive coverage, since he does not belong to those groups where every occurence means closing down the whole town
B"H Reb Aron T & the current Klausenberger of netanya buried the hatchet a few yrs ago. What's the purpose of bringing it up now?
Stam to be marbeh b'machlokes?
It's no secret that RYT had a nasty streak, esp in putting down other gutte yidden. His chassidim took it to the next level. The Klasenberger wasn't a "let's get along now" type either, so it was a perfect storm. BTW, RYT set up the Klausenberger in his rabbonus pre-WW2 and launched his rabisteve.
Rav Elyashiv?
Was it the Klausenberger who was minachem R'Shneur when he lost his son ("ich bin aych mikaneh" etc)? Was it him or the Bluzever?
Why did he feal a need to give a pilpul to his chasidim who weren't holding in the sugyos. I don't get it. What is with the Bava Kama shiur where the Rebbe says 'chah' and the chasidim say in unision 'chayiv'. Untill ne time he says 'puh'(instead of 'chah') and they shout 'puter' and he says 'chayiv- chayos'. And then a different Rebbe said Chaoys Hakoydeh, no-wait I am confusing that with ther Gerrer....
Did he also vacation in Bell Harbor besides for that place in Monticello not far from Woodburn?
Bichllal, why did Rebbes love vacationing in Bell Harbor?
Relatively new Artscroll book with Klausenberger waiving a flag- sayin 'Mey LaHashem Aylay'- in the DP camps as a zeh liumas zeh to the communist flag trying to ensnare yiddishe neshomes.
Acourding to Hirshel Tzig, with the negative flag association, this mayseh would explain alot regarding the shenenigens.
I am curious to Meir Birnbaums's mayses with the Rebbe that didn't make it into that Artscroll book
(that book made references to mishkav zuchur, but chalila for Artscroll to utter the word Lubavitch)
check out briskyeshivish.blogspot
I thought it was "Nein, Behaymos, Chayev!"Belle Harbor reminded them of Marienbad. I guess.
what kind of reference to MZ do they make in AS books?!
When he didn't want to hang out with the shkutzim on the weekends. He got called in for a talk. (I even heard from non-bney Teyreh that they were shocked by 'many things in the book'; I don't think they were referring to that Kol Nidrey drahshah)
Check out
briskyeshivish.blogspot for the most unique, and the only one of its kind, blog on the web
MAL MZ?
Birnbaum was referring to what soliders when they go on the Town! They get drunk and hang out with loose women and dal lchakima brimeza
justed posted, fresh off the press, a new peace regardin inyunuh d'yomah
briskyeshivish.blogspot
Anon
I see you got the Chakimah part, but not the Rimizah. His superiour officer thought that he was a linker, because he didn't do what everyone else did. Enough. Gahy freg bay ahn ahndereh
MAL hob ich schoen gefregt un gehergt - my father served a few yeats later during the Korean Conflict and had nothing to do with his 'fellow' draftees when they went on leave since to quote my father ' the other guys would go to town to carry on and sometimes the MPs were sent in to restore order - besides covorting and futher... With loose women - not a place for a civilized person much less a frimmer yid'
Anon
Of course; I am not saying that the guy who questioned Birnbaum asked an intelligent question. But the implications were obvious from the book and that Birnbaum wrote that what the guy was choyshed him for was ahsach erger than the alternative. OK?
Why couldn't your father get a deferment or join a yeshiva?
to ape and mimic
the stlye and lyrics
but not the gimicks
a great sensation
invites imitation
an' impersonation
it will be all solved
as his blog disolved
tzig ubber-all
you know what they say
;bout this game that we play
and say what we say
what goes around
comes around
it is kinda sound
tzemach's home bound
Shame on all of you you are a bunch of "kleineh kep"
non of you seem to have any idea of what gedolei yisroel are
and tzig you should write for a newspaper because rav meir shapiro said that the passuk says that the "sa'ir lazazel" was sent "byad ish iti" asks RMS how could one person remember all the aveiros of all klal yisroel
the answer is "byad ish iti " iti comes from the word iton meaning newspaper because newspaoer writers are good at finding aveiros for everyone
(by the way the der yid and the der blatt are included)
Tzig - I remember hearing that here is another "knietch" to the family connection between the Satmar Ruv and the Klausenberger. Supposedly he wanted the Klausenberger for a SIL, and asked his older brother to farher him. The Atzei Chayim was so impressed, he took him himself!
Ever heard this one?
why the need to stoop sop low? tell me who YOUR zeides were! Mine were fine Jews.Since I have no doubt that they were, leave them out of it. My yichus is nothing like yours. My zeide on my my mother's side was an off-the-derech son of a yid who was moser nefesh to be shomer shabbos in Canada after coming from Lita. My fathers father was the son of a Poilisher Maskil who threw his tfillin into the sea well before Ellis Island. Yet I still do not take up lashon hara b'rabim as a hobby. No one but a "hat" would spend every free moment looking to bash rabbonim. And the more "hatty" they are the more likely it is to be physical. Ayen the topic of this post.
--Der Moderne Shaygetz
Hey moshe ber
keep it cool dont attack tzig like a newspaper writer yourself
in fact if tzig would write for a paper we would have news the it is without any spin (the newspaper comp. might not like
it)
as far your vort from RMS just likr tov shebarofim excludes many dr.'s so does that vort and for sure tzig is excluded
by the way why are you reading this blog if you hate it
MAL
My father already used all his deferments (he was already 23) as well he was working for the military (stateside) but as a draftee he was required to go to basic training with other draftees and then went back to teaching officers radar(my father already had a under graduate degree in physics)
Moshe Ber
What is tzig worse then all official charadie media organs.
stop eating the cholov akim butter they give you in the dining room and maybe you'll be mekabel a shtik yiras shomayim from r'eisenmann. right? right.
does r'sheftel still sing the rebbe's nigunnim when he davens for the amud on the yomim norayim?
to Anon
Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:36:00 PM
a) What kind of language is this on the Klausenburger "opened his Mouth"
b) Why is the Satmar rov ZYA and the Klausenburger only ZTL ?
c) BTW where was the holy of the holiest Reb Yoelish zy"a when the klauenburger was building Mikvoas(Read Huteres of Bobov Book) and learning torah with bochurim out of the ghettos and marrying off couples etc.. in the DP camps there were no big tischen to lead yet, it was the real mesiras nefesh for torah. Where was the holy of the holiest?
a) Opened his mouth- פליטת פה I don't think it came out the way he intended
b) I'm a Satmar chossid, somewhat trained in the art of diplomacy
c) The Satmar Rov wasn't in the DP camps. In Yerushalayim and later in the US, he did all those things. The original members of the kehila were all taught torah and married off by him.
Photos of Hirshel Tzig and the Rebbe recently discovered.
Check it out at briskyeshivish.blogspot
Anon,
Better check your Satmar history, the Satmar Rov was in swiss by Reb Moshe Gross the father of the Belzer Dayan of BP for awhile, before he left to Yerushaliem while most of his chasidim were taken care by the Klausenburger
Tzig,
Maybe you can explain to us this phenomenon : it's almost universally accepted that when frum jews fight, it's a shame and the sooner the fire of machloikah can be put out, the better. Yes, many take delight in kayen iber the gritty, who did what and such, but institutionally, people have no problem accepting that being in a public altercation is by itself an avlah and should be put behind. Satmar has made peace with Cluj and Spinka and whomever else they may have put down earlier. Neither Bobov, nor Cluj nor any other Halberstams maintain any animosity towards Ryzhiner lineage - although it was a Code Red war in the old country. Belz and Bobov are best friends today - and they too had bloody noses from fighting back home. Ger was hated and despised in Poland for being bullies, but nobody today would maintain Ger vs Amschinow or Ger vs Aleksander fight. In fact, the young ones from just about every camp will have hard time naming their "sworn enemies", not to mention explaining actual reasons for the division. Rightfully so - pretty much all reasons are long gone.
But there is an exception. For some reason, some of your newly acquired homies insist on digging out old rusty hatchets and bringing back to memory all kinds of nasty fights, some of which are relevant to them and some of which are totally off base. If you'll ask a modern bucher from Satmar about Lubavich, he'll probably tell you that they are nice folks (except the crazies of course) with whom there once was a fight - he's not sure why - but it's long since forgotten. If you'll ask the other side, you'll hear down in the minute details the story with tankisten, including the driver license numbers of everyone involved, and how we shun their meat and their hechshers and how it's all written down on pages such and such. To actually be kove'a a yomtov around a victory in a gentile court - the essence of Chilul H' if there were any - that itself speaks volumes. There are many more examples to bring, but it's not necessary to make the point.
But perhaps you can shed some light and explain to the world why is it so important to keep the old flames burning and to imbibe all that negative sentiment towards fellow frum jews - perhaps second grade, non-anash, but jews still - from the youngest of ages ? Do explain, please ...
a bigger phenomenon is what makes you leave and come back again?
why now?!
do tell. Please!
UD,
You have been sorely missed.
As usual your questions are the kind that the Tzig&Co really don't like as it exposes the "other" side of the ones so full of "Ahavas Yisroel" {beclompish)
On this blog I've see people (read,Lubab)"answer" serious questions with :"Two hundred years ago there was an evil Snag named Avigdor"
They constantly teach young kids lots of hate, reliving old stories from 200 years ago, with the implication that anybody questioning them today is the same Snag of the "evil snag regime" from 200 years ago.So, actually the Satmar fight will never ever be gorgotten, if the clowns and talking Lubab heads get their way.
P.S About the whole fight two hundred years ago?The Lubab will have you believe their version, with almost nobody caring to debate it,I mean after all it's two hundred years stale.History buffs, however know that the Lubab were very complicit in this "war" with both sides using whatever they could to try and gain the upper hand.
Thank God that that ugly bit of history is behind us.Well, behing most other Yidden, that is,by Lubab the hate is very much part of the curriculum.
I thank my lucky stars that Gramps gave up being a chosid when he arrived here!
natchalnikoff
I wouldn't be proud of a fan like Burech.....
to Anon Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:02:00 AM
These were the same ones who left the Kloizenberger when the Rebbe came to America.
Hence, this whole crappy article that Tzig put up.
Did I hear something about someone going to the parade?
I was there. Why?
--Der Moderne Shaygetz
Kishmoey Keyn Hue
UD BURECH
The Real Mcoy Satmarers haven"t changed at all,the peace deals that Reb Aron Tietelbaum does, happens only because he is considered a traitor he is selling out the Holy dogma for his ego the hard core satmarers still put out lately a big fat book with the unvarnished truth about the shita, and in there the Klausenburger is still considered a apikores when they write about the story of the Lantzeter shiva incident.Also I didn"t see that Skwer/ Rachmstrivk changed one iota there view regarding Breslov,
All the stuff thay you mentioned were all turf war and Hitler took care on them as he put all the jews in the same oven Belz/Bobov/Ger/Aleksander etc.. and today it stated from scratch Ger /Porush Belz /Machnuvke its all a turf war.
Tzig,
Do you really think it's a bigger phenomenon ? If so, here's a deal - you explain the lesser phenomenon, and then I'll explain yours. Al harishon - rishon ...
All starved of attention and recognition, I crawled back here to seek my fans, who sorely missed me, and nobody will rob us from this eis doidim higi'a. Yidishe neshumes - that's all the qualifier I need in my fans, and why see Burech as anything less then a ben novi ?
In any case, I'm sure you know that Clujer, ob"m, was his grandfather's a grandson and when it came to handing down a sharfe pusek, neither Minchas Eluzor nor "fetter Eisov" the Satmarer Ruv zy"a had nothing on him. You and your company he would've dismissed outright as mechalelei Shabbos yom kippur fressers - he said something of sorts to the heiliger Imrei Chayim zy"a (who gave him a marvelously witty comeback, btw). He was every bit a kannoi as his contemporaries. He was also one of the greatest, most marvelous minds to ever walk this Earth - both in his life story, the depth of his learning, his hasugos and his nachlah. Do him some justice and post some nice positive stuff, because now you've reduced him to yet another tankist in Willy.
@ Anon Monday, June 01, 2009 12:58:00 AM
R' Aron is NOT a traitor. The Cluj from Netanya helped him out with his einekel who still isn't well. It's called hakaras hatoiv. BTW Zalman Leib has been buddy-buddy with the other Cluj. What's good for the goose...
And about the Lantzeter shiva.
Nothing happened. The Rebbe ZYO just said that the best peace is when everybody has theirs, and they leave each other alone.
Last Anonymous (12:58 6/01),
יודע צדיק נפש בהמתו. To an extent, you may be right; the Shittah was an art and not a science and the Rebbe zy"a knew where to draw the line. When asked why he talks so much about money and not taking it, he said that he knows his people and he knows just how much they _like_ money.
The reality was that he was far from your typical Ungarisher Ruv. Satmar that he built, of those days , was a unique, once-in-a-history assembly of various very different and very individual personas that was all held together not by tribal inherited allegiance to an abstract Rebbe - something he frowned upon - but specifically by himself - a gigantic, intellectually honest mind that was not afraid to ask the toughest questions (see Divrei Yoel; the kashiyos are often better then the terutzim) and spoke what was on his mind regardless of consequences.
Yet, he was essentially a scion of a Galitzianer hoif. His father was basically a Sanzer chusid and Yetev Lev was almost like a lamed-vuvnik to his own children. SR zy"a inherited groise moichin that could hold eilu veilu, and he knew how to handle things and be a kannoi without wreaking havoc and mashing up everything in his path. Unfortunately, many members of his oyven-un _were_ typical Ungarishe rabunim, and while his nephew took over the Rebbistve bit, they decided that they're just as suited to carry the flag. Alas, their shoulders weren't wide enough : it turned out that it takes more then a machoah here and a flag burning there and even when topped with a shaleshides toyreh and an almost exact krechts at the zechste hakufah, they're not quite there yet. They also missed the people factor - the vacuum that existed in the 50s and 60s was long filled to capacity, and was hissing at the seams from pressure.
So to what you said, the real Satmarers are themselves a phantom; just like in Chabad, everything was standing on this Rebbe dayka, and bar him, the thing doesn't really work as it used to.
Contrast this with your typical average hoyf scenario : you're born into rebbisteve, nobody expects much from you, if you know from which side to open a gemora - you're an "erkenlernin" talmid chuchom. If you actually can learn - אוי להאי שיפרא ...
AT of Satmar today, as well as his brother, are articles unto themselves. Past 30 years taught them something, and after they're done fighting, the tale of two Satmars may even turn out to be a benefit - kinas sofrim and such.
UD
here's my explanation:
I don't sit here day and night and heave dirt on Satmar and such. I don't try and dig up anything that ever happened with groups I disagree with. I also am pretty respectful the few times that I do. Unlike some people....
Someone sent me a nice scoop and I posted it, knowing full well that there was no major chiddush here, aside from the fact that it changed venues for one weekend.
You on the other hand seem to thrive on these issues, as it's the only time we hear from you. You defend any criticism of any group as long as a Lubavitcher is the doing the critique. Not much different than what you accuse me of, is it?
Besides, most Lubavitcher kids are not as well-versed as you claim them to be. Most know zero about Vechter or Tanks in Willy.
Tzig you seem to be lost and speechless to the attacks from UD
that shows that the second someone
responds in kind you are done "meat min haor docheh..."
I'm not attacking anyone. I simply articulated a fact that genuinely bothers me (and probably a few others) and gave Tzig (or whoever else wants to step up) benefit of the doubt to put things in proper light (or just bark "we don't owe anybody any explanation").
Tzig,
You say that you don't heave dirt on S day and night. But have a look : of the last ten mentions of the S word here, how many were in a positive light ?
You say that I thrive on these issues since that's the only time you hear from me. To this I can tell you, first of all, to have a good look at the stream of comments to all the other posts here. It's mostly lonely angry men who can't spell busy with bashing one group or person or another, as well as each other. The only notable exception is schneur who usually has worthy content, albeit he, too, can be pretty biased and closed minded when it comes to certain issues. Well, at least he can spell and brings a chidush to the table. But the rest isn't encouraging. And look at the content that's prevalent here for past whoknowshowlong : Litvakes killed our lord in Shanghai, Skver sucks, Litvakes suck more, here some pictures of fat Litvak sucking + eighteen pages of transcripts of such, kanoim suck too, evil Vaad Hatzola sucked blood money, some nice poetry with photos, Mishpacha magazine sucks for mirroring the Munkacz photo, yet some more Lithuanian sucking, Debreciner Ruv doesn't know what he's talking about so he sucks, Lipa & Co sucks because I don't like their music and again Skver sucks. All along Satmar is sucking in the background. Now I ask you : what can a dummy like me contribute to such a lofty discussion ? What am I gonna say ? So here I am occasionally listening and even more occasionally chiming in. The Clujer subject was a bit more interesting so I hoped I'll guilt trip you into posting something nice and interesting at least about him, while actually explaining the need to nurture war spirits. Alas, you're back to cheap parlor tricks like turning the tables on the questioner : "you, on the other hand, bla bla bla bla". Is there really no other way to weasel out of answering ?
Meaning of this sentence - "you defend any criticism of any group as long as a Lubavitcher is the doing the critique" - missed me almost completely. Must be my rusty English, but I'll ask you to clarify.
And re your sof pusek : we wish such was the case, but I can tell you, find a real earnest anash kid on President and offer him a Klein's icecream; chances are you'll get an earful. Have a historical read at Hydepark or c-talk. There is enough to go around ...
UD-
וואָס האַקסטו אַ טשייניק און װאָס בולבוסטו װי אַ בת-היענה
מיין שװיגערס תזל־כטל מענה־לשון קלינגט שױן בעבסער װי דיין שלשלתדיקן פּלודעריי
פֿון דיין שרייבן זע איך אַז דו פֿאַרשטייסט נישט די אַלף בית פון שרייבעריי
אַ געניטע שרייבער טיילט שטענדיק פֿרישע מוציא´ס אײַנגעטונקן אַמאָל אין האָניג, און אמאָל אין געריבענע רױטע פּאָמידאָרן מיט עסיג
נישט אַלעמאָל קאָן מען גלעטן קהל, צומאָל מוז מען אַרײַנשניידן די מה־יפיתניקעס אָן קײַן רחמנות
והשנית- דער ציג איז ניט קײַן פֿאָרװעטס נודניק װאָס שטאָפּט אירע חצי מנין לעזער מיט פּושקאַלאַוואַטי און שאַריגראָד און נאָך אַזעלכע אָץ קוצץ אינדיאַנישע גראַמאַטיק, און זיך שפּעטער וווּנדערן װי האָבן זיך די אַבּאָנירטע איבערגעפּעקלט
ציג איז אַ מייסטער פֿון צושטעלן װאַזשנע סחורה -ראָזשינקעס מיט מאַנדלען- אירע ליינער פּאָסמאַקעווען דיך פֿון יעדעס שטיקל, משטייט און גאַפט און מרייבט זיך די הענט מחיה נפֿשות
ס´קוקט אױס װי דו שפּירסט זיך געטראָפֿן פֿון יעדעס שטיקל, מ´מיינט אײַך ניט פּערזענדלעך, און אױב איר עקשנט זיך אַז יאָ, מיינט מען אײַך טאַקע
כפרה,
איך בעט איבער מחילה פֿון דיר און דײַן טשײַניק אױב עס אין גאנצן צעהאקט געװאָרען; מע'האָט געמײַנט אז אזא א דיקע בײן אָהן קײַן שום חלל האָט מסתמא גרעססערס געזעהען. טאקע פֿון דײן שװיגער אלײנס, װען זי האט מיט שעירים עלי דשא אין קיסלאָװאָדסק געפּראװעט אלל-פֿארבאנדליכער שרײַבערס בונד. און עס זעהט אױס אז דו האסט מיר מיט איהר פֿארמישט; איך בין קײן שרײבער און קײן בן שרײבער, און פֿאר אַ שרײבער ניט פֿארשטעלט. זאָפֿאָרט לאָז איך אײך װײטער װײקען אין ציג'ס װארמע זאפֿט, טײערע הערען שרײבערען זאמען מיט דײנע שװיגער תזל-כטל פֿון איהר װארמע בולקעס - איך װיל ניט שטעהרען אײַך דעם מחיה נפשות, װײל איך האב מורה מיט רײַבן די הענט צו פֿיעל װעט איהר זײ אין גאנצן אױסרײַבן. און אױב ס'קוקט אײך װײטער אזױ אױס װי איר דרוקט, האב איך אן עצה טובה קמ"ל גאנצן אומזינסט - הערט אױף זיך רײַבן די הענט, און רײַבט אנשטאָטס די אױגען - אפשר װעט העלפֿן ...
UD
There is alot to talk about the shita I really believe that he didn"t attract people because of his sefer it was considered very weak, nobody thought it will ever be reprinted since it was polemical and a time issue that it was long over, he didn't change no minds with it, even people on the same page with him as the Shoproner the Krasner were against it. It was the money bags that were delivered to the right addresses. But my point is why was he divisive before the Shita? all his life he was was involved in fights between "Ehrliche Yiden"
UD
"When asked why he talks so much about money and not taking it, he said that he knows his people and he knows just how much they _like_ money." What does that mean he doesn"t take it? you mean for himself? his residence in Brooklyn wasn't bad according to those standard, I am not talking about his last house in Monroe. I am not saying that he wasn't big in Tzedoka but please don"t exaggerate. I still remember his Lincoln Continental convertible before Yitzchok Schwartz drove the "Gele (mobile)Bus "
"some nice poetry with photos"
It was worth reading your entire post just to see these true words. Ashrechuh
UD
really now, that was very unbecoming of you
דאס לשון טאר מען נישט אזוי מטמא זיין
Tzig - not that I'm your daily Chofets Chayim club member, but do tell what offended your hungarian sensibilities this time as I'm somewhat thick when it comes to hints and such ?
forget it; you wouldn't understand.
But I do take issue with your deliberate distortion of the issues discussed here recently, especially the ones about the Debreciner Rov and the Skverrer community.
Anonymous from 8:31 - he was talking about not taking money from unclean sources (the education system in the state of Israel in particular). You jumped a bit ahead of yourself.
Tzig - now you're really being offensive; telling me that I wouldn't get a shtik nevuleh is like telling Rav Shach ob"m that he can't teitch Rambam. In public.
Now that you got me to re-read my own words looking for hidden content, I can only come up with perhaps some desperate bucher's fantasy involving warme bilkes and the poor shviger (who I'm sure is a great woman and I'll have a chance to ask for her mechila after 12). While unintended, somehow I don't think that's it. You really owe an explanation here.
Distortion ? Are you saying that Skver doesn't suck ?
"they feel - with all due respect - that RMK is an outsider, he doesn't understand the Chabad Dor Hashvi'i - or any generation for that matter - culture, so he can't really lecture them on they should run their own internal affairs" : that still stands, I assume ...
you do realize that the RMK comment you quote here was me repeating what others said on other venues, right?
Forget about me criticizing your choice of language. It's not important.
Dude, Tzig, it's critically important. You can cause erosion of self esteem, insomnia and other צער בעלי חײם, on top of causing innocent neshumos to conjure up some highly improbable forays into YIVO-style erolinguistic. At least indicate which sentence is guilty. You must understand, coming from a source where "אַ גוטטער פּיש איז אַ האַלבער טרען " is acceptable talk by a gray haired alte chosid mashpia, we're talking about something majorly major here.
For the record, I have no problems with such leshoinos. As long it's honest speech.
As far as RMK, I'm not attributing this to you specifically; rather, the general consensus here is that he doesn't really know the inyan so he should stay away from it or at least "we" should stay away from him when it comes to the issue.
Thanks for the laugh! I liked that vort, despite never hearing it from any gray bearded mashpia, and I've heard lots of them.
The consensus was not one I agreed with, necessarily. But I never said that he "su--ed."
I don't think anybody got an impression that I tried to say that you said that he s..d.
Thanks to Naftuli Frenkel, a decade or two in his yeshiva left way too many good people full of such vorts and little else.
Tziggy the day will come and you will be nomore an anon. unknown person and then you will be ranked together with the great writers like chaim lieberman,shaulson,menashe fulop,...
הנה ימים באים נאם השם
CH
You forgot to mention the guy who wrote the Gaon book
one things for sure H.T. will not post such a bad post so quickly again
The only sure things are death and taxes, and the latter only for some people.
Don't hold your breath, my friend.
I believe i heard this in the name of the last rebbe of viznits
"everyone in the u.s. was influenced by satmar and everyone in israel was influened by zionism"
reading the comments here really shows the satmar influence
(just found it interesting)
Heard from A Godul in Willi
Every Yid in willi is a Satmarer, even the Klausenburger in willi has a little Satmarer in his belly.
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