Shlomo in Israel c.1958
Click here and Enjoy!
מעין עולם הבא
Many classics as well as rarities available there for your listening pleasure. Please try and refrain from "blaming" Lubavitch here for any of what you see as his indiscretions. However, I cannot keep you from doing it בין הסדרים in Philly or Stamford or Passaic, or at your Shabbos table on a long Friday night. You can do there as you wish. You can also discuss how R' Aron cried when he heard לולי תורתך, or how he was supposed to become the Reb'Kiveyger of that generation," and other such Yeshivishe hock. What's more interesting to note is how his music and he himself have become so popular among the Chassidishe Oylam, especially those who have a hard time conforming to the mainstream Chassidishe/Hungarian norms of today.
52 comments:
I won't blame Lubavitch for Shlomele's indiscretions but I do blame a Lubavitcher for the broken link you posted.
Looking forward to the correct link and some listening enjoyment.
Thanks!
Lets not forget that today was Maran Zatzal's yartzeit.
lubavitch sent him on the self destructive trajectory of his downfall
someone here has a very hard time following very simple instructions....
oich mir a downfall. er iz nisht geven gornisht a klenerer tzadik than all today's singers kol echod bishmoy hatoyv yevoroch.
Nor vos den, he happened also to have more than a bit of talent in er hot zich oysgelacht fun all the gedoilim and isurim and he prevailed. Whereas the others can't write a tune and some of them can barely sing one but they worship at the altar of our meshugasn.
Lipa ganves from Lady Gaga in vays ikh ver and R' Shloime was influenced by the likes of Johnny Cash so another boon for the bal hahilulo.
shlomo was influenced by Johny Cash? are you sure you're not confusing him with Country yossi?
Tzig, waiting for a post on the Telzer situation
what was the psak last week?
Listen to Rings of Fire and tell me if from the opening cords to the entire tune it could not have been a Reb Shloime shtikl.
I am referring to Cash's Sun collection where the tunes are short, lyrical and melodious. Like Cash, Carlebach is usually of no more than 2 short movements but with a strong melody. The only Reb Shloime with more than two movements that comes to mind is his slow Gam Ki Eileich.
If I tell you the Psak Tzigy will you promise us a good post on the issue? a ripper like you do on scotty?
(obviously no LH Re. the telzer's, buy a couple of "sharfer" jabs, and some pickled sarcasm would be nice)
hanhallah gets yeshiva but they have to buy out ziggy, somewhere around 2mill.
See this link for a very eye-openning interview that R' Shlomo gave:
http://www.havurahshirhadash.org/shlomoarticle15.html
Anon
"lubavitch sent him on the self destructive trajectory of his downfall"
Idiot,
did Lubavich send the rapist Trooper Lieb too?
"
Can someone please give some guidance. I have been an admirer of his music for over 30 years because of the way his tunes and style move me.A couple of years ago I was informed of his relationships with women and was advised that his music was no longer kosher. Can anyone shed some light here as I still like his music and in just about any shul one will daven on a Shabbos one of his tunes will be sung?
Many years ago I was hooked on his music and knew about 150 of his songs.When I came to US I got a gig in Javits Center to provide sound background for an exhibition and for 8 hours played his songs. Later my mashpia told me not to play his songs, so I don't do it since then.
As about chabad responsible for his vices, I like it. It is like that Jew reading Nazi newspapers blaming Jews for all the woes of the world. That Jew said it makes him feel so powerful.
Here also feels like chabad is so powerful to make all these dudes to chose wrong:)
Ende Tsadik said... -----------
I wish I know what you talking about, but I suspect that this guy was also more like an ץ and not such a צ
anon: "just about any shul one will daven on a Shabbos one of his tunes will be sung?"
I daven for many years in many shuls never heared his songs in shul, However I heared from a laymen that a song is not מקבל טומאה
Johnny Cash was at least Gezza!!!!
Anon.:9:03 I feel your pain in this matter of great importance.I once heard from a gevisser godol with alot of musical kashrus experience that the music should be considered as" "K-D" and one should wait half an hour after fleishigs before humming a nigun...
timely carlebach post
Yakov
"Many years ago I was hooked on his music and knew about 150 of his song"
I don't think that Shloma has so many nigunim, he repeats himself
You are so right that Johnny Cash was real geza. He sufferred tremendously while in Folsom Prison and his album is filled with bittere yissurim. He never changed his levush{lange rekl} and kept all the old minhogim.His song "I walk the line" has never been matched by anyone in the current Hassidic world of wannabbees...
Anon 11:51
Fine, let's say songs - the words would be different for the same melody:) I'd say some variations were still there to make it different songs. Nowadays I'd probably remember about 20. And keep forgetting.
I heard that in Will their is a Carelbach shul in a basement, called the Shtibel
its not in the new Willi, its on Penn street
Reb Shlmoma in his kever from laughter
Shloime yarshened from Johnny Cash? I was thinking more along the lines of Arlo Guthrie, ZTVK"L, He had some real Jewish connection, was married to a Brooklyn girl, IIRC
You mean Woody Guthrie.
Woodrow Wilson Guthrie was married zivug sheni to Marjorie(Chana)Greenblatt, Arlo was their son. he was taught his bar-Mitva by Meir Kahane.
Marjorie's mother was Aliza Waitzman-Greenblatt a yiddish poet. Aliza's mother was Brocho Bas Zion Rozovsky.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/arts/article/a_jewish_visit_to_guthries_land_20041203/
http://www.archive.org/details/nybc206860
Rav Guthrie zt"l was Rebbi Muvhak of the tzadik Robert Dylan (Zimmerman) who almost was a talmud also of Rav Freifeld (see Besser's book) I do detect traces of Bob's influence on some of Rav Shlomele's niggunim.
Dovy, there is efsher some influence of Bob Dylan in Reb Shloime's nusach and perhaps his krechtz ober bei Reb Bob gefunt men koim amol a nigun.
Belz fun amol, who is Yosef Tzvi Breier's major influence?
Belz fun amol, who is Yosef Tzvi Breier's major influence?
--
Old European niggunim. The Belzer niggunim have a real old-world taam, like those of Reb Chaim Banet or Reb Moishe Goldman (A"H).
As for Carlebach, he was not so holy, not so sweet, maybe he got high. I saw him in action and spoke to people whom he harassed. The stories are not pleasant. He'd be regarded as another Baruch Lanner today.
"give me five thousand free tickets to bring holy hippies from Los Angeles and San Francisco, to bring them here, and we will go to every Arab house in the country and bring them flowers"
__
LOL. Reminds me of "Love Power" from "Springtime for Yemach Shemo in Germany" (The Producers).
That Tikkun interview shows who Carlebach was. A man who was full of himself and lived in fantasy. We know that one story he told, Yossele Kamtzan Kodosh, was stolen straight from one of the Schochets in Toronto. The rest are either the same or out and out fantasy.
Lo bashamayim hu.
Guthrie's song "This Lamd is Your Land" was recorded by Moses Asch of Folkways Records the son of Sholem Asch.
house of pot
"As for Carlebach, he was not so holy, not so sweet, maybe he got high. I saw him in action and spoke to people whom he harassed."
it seems that you are out to get even with shlome after his death,
it is known that he had affairs, but no harrasment.
"it is known that he had affairs, but no harrasment"
Are you sure?
www.lilith.org/landmark_articles/carlebach_lilithsp98.pdf
If you have a heart and soul it is impossible not to be moved by Shlomo's haunting niggunim and his incredible voice.Nobody in the world of Jewish music even comes close. When he began to sing it was as if thousands of years of Jewish hope and suffering found expression in his voice. Assimmilated Jews and lehavdil non-Jews were moved to tears while not knowing even a word of Hebrew.His neshomoh was rooted in the highest "worlds" while he himself led a life of resentment, unhappiness,and loneliness in this world.Nevertheless,his contribution to the baal teshuvah movement and to recreating Jewish spirituality after the Holocaust cannot be challenged.
Carlebach was koivea Toyre la'itim, bringing it down to the level of any other counter-culture movement of his time. He forgot that Torah is about boundaries and not about free love. The weirdos he brought in and who went elsewhere are often the parents of today's OTD problem youth.
In fact, he was probably as much the 'father' of 'jewish renewal' as the even more meshugge Schachter was. That is what he 'reconstructed.'
He even granted smicha to a few women, who I am sure know hilchos ishius very well thanks to their intimate learning sessions with him.
He had a couple of good songs, but they had no authenticity and were just plain 60s style.
The man was meshugge and way, way OTD. There was not an ounce of emmes in him. A child could see it was one big show. And an adult could see it was a show to get the girls close to him so he could use and abuse them.
"He had a couple of good songs, but they had no authenticity and were just plain 60s style."
I would suggest you keep your day job while you're interviewing for music critic of the Times.
There is a new book out- Holy Beggars by Aryae Coopersmith on the House of Love and Prayer in San Francisco, as well as Carlebach through the years. Eye-opening. Available on Amazon.
Time to put Carlebach to sleep and to stop idolizing this misguided, uncontrolled cult leader. I observed his yahrtzeit as I did Rabin's - fasted until chatzois and no meat. I'd have smoked too but I quit years ago and I don't want to chance getting into it again. (On a tzaddik's yahrtzeit I davka eat meat and I used to abstain from smoking when I did smoke).
How about "Wholly Lowly" - a new book about Mondrowitz and (insert your choice of Kolko, Lebowits, Brauner etc). Carlebach was on their level, but more manipulative and around at a different time.
House
No shaila carlebach had massive issues with women. It was written up in detail in a mazagine called lilith years ago. You used to be able to google it and its not a fun read. It is worth noting that all this stuff came out after he died and had no opportunity to defend himself. Personally, I believe, unlike the other monsters you mentioned, he would have owned up to his mistakes. I would compare the allegations against him to those against RMT ( who was a big chusid of his) in that he used and abused his title of "rabbi" to nail unsuspecting young women. That having been said, just as the court of appeals said by RMT, relations between consenting adults, rabbi, priest or otherwise, are not even actionable civilly, let alone criminally. So the comparison to the pedophiles you mentioned is not fair or correct. I'm not defending him or saying he is an ende tzadik (to borrow a phrase) I'm just saying lets keep things in perspective.
All of the above notwithstanding, and irrespective of what you think of his music, the fact is that his music has captivated the jewish world all over in a way that cannot be adequately described. Its power transcends the man himself and clearly has a genuine spiritual quality to it.
Finally, the Holy Amshinover Rebbe, held of Shlomo himself, oilom umloiah, (there is a video on the internet of them together). According to one of the books about Shlomo, supposedly he said that "halivai my chailik in Oilum Haba should be like his" If its true thats a major endorsement. I understand it that, like the Holy R' Moishe Leib Sassov, Shlomo descended into the depths of hell to save souls, and counter to your false proposition, has thousands of doros yeshorim to his credit as a result. By Chassidim thats the highest calling possible - to sacrifice your own spirituality to save another jew.
in america its called celebrate a life....
have a joint!
Stop trying to metaher a sheretz.
This menuval chased TEENAGE girls.
He is no better than Lanner.
He was a showman and a 60s guru who dragged Torah into the mud.
A sheretz was all that he was.
The only story I believe about him was that his mother knew she had defective merchandise, and asked Rav Hutner if he could have Shlomo work in the Chaim Berlin library to keep him out of trouble.
Rav Kotler did not cry over him. He was probably glad to be rid of him. The Rebbe sent him packing, and he was never the Rebbe's chavrusa.
Veiter Emes,
plz don't shlep the amshinover, a true tzadik in our time to clean up r' shloime. He was once by R' Meir Amshinover (GF of today's Rebbe LRF"SH) and he let him sing a song but said no words. Today's Rebbe admired his outreach work and his ability to connect with totally alienated Jews. The connection was thru Dr. Ritchie, who is a farbrente chossid of the amshinov, and a mekurav of shloime.
The bottom line is RSC had charisma, was mekarev hundreds of people to yiddishkeit, his music warms many Jewish hearts, but like all of us, he had human failings that he struggled to overcome. Acheir mois kedoishim doesn't work for him, the the people trying to rewrite his life are doing him a major disservice.
BTW, i'm a chossid and have no shame playing his music. I love him for his achievements and his "neshomah" but I won't put him on a pedestal.
Response to House and anons
He was a multifaceted personality who had varied and complex and sometimes conflicting forces going inside him. I appreciate the appeal of sticking people into catagories of black and white. Hes either a total shaiketz or the tzadik hador. Thats the way we are trained in our yeshivas (its also probably why you have so many kids going off today.) To see and understand the complexity that existed in alot of the personalities of the previous dor takes work and who wants to do that. I would include in that list the LUbavitcher, R; Hutner and R' Soloveitchik. These were unconventional personalities who went through spiritual oddyseys in their younger years (all spent time in berlin away from the yeshiva world) and came back with their own uniquie approach to yiddeshkeit. Shlomos approach was unconventional but just because he wont get the mizrach at the Aguda Convention doesn't diminish all the good he did and all the lives he touched.
Unconventional? If you use the same word to describe renewal, reform, etc then you are right.
Carlebach would get the seat next to Lanner in Boca Raton.
You cannot metaher a sheretz. He was a cult leader, plain and simple - a 1960s guru who defiled the Torah and bent it to his needs.
His contribution was a net negative. HE and his alternative lifestyle confusion are the root cause of much of the OTD problem. Many OTD kids are the offspring of these half-baked 60s and 70s Carlebach types who went elsewhere without abandoning the permissiveness and hefkerus they learned from Carlebach.
Oh, he touched plenty of lives - mostly female lives. I saw it myself at a concert for 1 1/2 hours during the tircha intermission until I could take no more and walked out.
You cannot compare this tinaf to the Rav or the Rebbe. Rav Hutner hardly belongs in the same list as either of them or chas vesholom with Carlebach, but if he only would have given Carlebach the job his mother supposedly asked for, we might have had the music without the nevelus.
I want you to know, he was not so holy, not so sweet, gevald, they sing every morning, the angels of destruction in the lowest places, the niggunim from the not so holy Shlomo....essa einai el hanaarois, meayin, meayin tavoi pritzasi...and I want you to know, there is more to this not so holy song, but I want you to know, there is so much I forget because I inhale too much of the holy incense, the ketoires hasomim from the holy House of Love and Prayer....
If Dovid Hamelech was writing today kapitel nun alef the same people would be calling him and it tinofes too and would do with tehilim what the skvere do with likutei maran.
To House of Pot...Why such anger?Did he forget to acknowledge you at a concert and to put you in the inner circle? He's been gone for quite a while.Relax,holy Brother.
I would not want to be in his inner circle. That is more for his peers - Tendler, Tropper, Lanner, Mondrowitz, Lebovits, Kolko etc.
The guy was a FREAK!
Just saw a video of Horav Hatzadik Reb Dov Kook from Teveryeh singing Shlomo nigunim. So ,Mr House of Pot,there are gedolim who clearly thought[the Amshinover] and think[Rav Kook] that R. Shlomo needs to be taken seriously.I can't stop you from screaming "Freak" but it just ain't so.Sorry.
See above re: the Amshinover.
Many people sing his niggunim knowing full well who he was. An acquaintance of mine, a well-known Chabad shaliach, is a big fan of Carlebach's music, but he used a shockingly unpleasant word, one that implies he was involved in very ossur behavior, to describe Carlebach himself.
Just because Rav Dov Kook sings his niggunim does not mean he holds by Carlebach in any way.
If he would have just composed music, there would have been no issue. I saw for myself how he was the leader of a cult of misfits, most of whom did not even follow halacha. His own daughters are frei. Carlebach was a sick man, not even normal enough to call a kofer, although menuval is an accurate description of him.
Today, he would have ended up like Lanner, cooling his heels in enforced kollel for a few years and then registered on the offender list for the rest of his life.
House of....
" The weirdos he brought in and who went elsewhere are often the parents of today's OTD problem youth."
whayever u say about Shloma could be true or not, but this statement is a lie..
Anonymous, it is largely true as far as Chabad in Crown Heights and EY is concerned.
A huge number of the OTD crowd are the children of alternative lifestyle people who had a connection to the guitar menuval but wanted to move on. Chabad took them in but never could really influence them to give up some of the thought patterns of their past. Their children saw Torah as just another alternative lifestyle with too many restrictions, so they dumped it and found other alternative lifestyles.
There are other types of OTDs with other backgrounds, but Carlebach brought more than a few handfuls of confused people to the edges of the mainstream, where they never fit and still clung to the 60s and 70s nonsense.
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