So it seems like Matisyahu, the great White/Jewish hope, has left Chabad and joined Karlin. He's not sure yet which Karlin, whether Pinsk or Stolin, but one of them. Don't get me wrong here, I wish him well and all the luck in the world, but there's seems to be a lack of appreciation on his part, as is often the case. Also, if you ask me I'd say that this seems to be a pattern with him, not liking his surroundings after a while and looking for something new. One line in particular seems to sum it all up for me: "At first it was very exciting to me, but after learning it for hours a day for two years, the ideas weren’t fresh anymore." He seems to quickly run out of patience, and gets tired of doing the same thing over and over again. Then again maybe he'll become a righteous Karliner and settle down. Right.
You'll surely chalk this one up to me being oversensitive, but it sure seems like Matty's a little bit of an ingrate, not appreciating what was done for him in Chabad, both in the Yeshivos he learned in, and in the Shlichus Network. Getting free PR, albeit Chabad benefitted too, sure didn't hurt in his career. One thing's for certain, there's no way in heck that the Karliner, especially the more "old-style" Pinsker, will allow for him to continue "beatboxing" in clubs while becoming one of them, especially since he announced to the world that he belongs there now. For some reason some Lubavitchers were happy to have him as their own, and allowed for that genre to become popular even amongst their own children. Now that he's introduced that to Lubavitcher kids and taught them that it was cool to be frum and Bob Marley at the same time let him peddle his wares elsewhere, and let's see the kind of reception he gets there. Something tells it won't be pretty in Karlin. Then again, I could be wrong again.
63 comments:
"Matty's a little bit of an ingrate, not appreciating what was done for him in Chabad, both in the Yeshivos he learned in, and in the Shlichus Network."
I strongly disagree and I don't know how much more thanks you would expect the man to give?
I expect him to be less degrading when he speaks of them, that's all. I have no problem with him leaving, believe me, it's what he does on the way out that bothers me.
He felt boxed in- big deal! Don't we all some days?
Yes we do.
They fed him tanya and maymures before he could as much as read a mishna. What surprise is there that he threw up ?
U N
Please shut up. You talk like a big fool. Besides, why teach him Talmud if he doesn't believe in G-d?
We all feel to see the point: We all have him, as he is a fellow Jew. Even if he was flying sky-high frei, we would still have him. All of us.
On a side note, honesty is always the best policy. Four years ago he was having no issues with Chabad, this began when he joined his new agency. He must think this will make the change more legitimate if it took longer to think out, or dilute even more the perceived influence of Chabad on him.
He doesn't believe in G-d ? What gives ?
read his interviews. his problem was that his handlers spoon-fed him the party line stuff and forgot to put a fundament. they forget that neither Chassidus and nor teachings of Chabad make any sense (or even much worse) outside of the fundamental framework.
In that famous "moshol", about the sick man that's getting sicker and you're supposed to pour medicine down his throat hoping that some will get in - well, it's very applicable. Except that the doctor should maybe stop for a second and think that maybe it's the amount of his medicine and adulterants in it that make this patient feel worse and worse. But instead the doctor is quite joyful in this excercise, and when the man is finally Kaputt, well, we did everything we could, right ?
U N
More typical talk without information from you. Blissful existence.
Talking about ingrates:
Never heard a good from you about the YESHIVAS you attended before you joined LUBAB express.Never heard a good word about Telz were Tzig senior attended.
Typical Lubab speak.Out of both sides of their mechila.
For the record:I read the interview and saw nothing ungrateful mentioned there.Actually Lubab as usual 'stole' him from another kiruv organization.
Iguess I need to be like the Tzig:Read between the lines.Right.
Yechi.
WHILE INDEED CHABAD WOKE HIS SOUL (AS THEY HAVE DONE FOR OTHERS) HE STIL MUST FIND HIS "SOURCE". LET US WISH HIM WELL IN HIS NEW STAGE OF HIS SERVICE TO THE ALMIGHTY
Let the guy grow, it's his right . . . his only fullishness is putting it in the lime-light.
I doubt he'll actually become a karliner, he hangs out there -but chabad and breslov are the only ones who will accept him.
When he was in Yeshivah with Chabad he was drawn towards chassidus, and form I hear, even more so to davening. Gemara was more then available.
the fact hat his wife wants to remain a lubab im sure will do "wonders" for his personal life...
Who knows?
Maybe if some more Chabadniks turned karlin - their neshomos would also be saved..?
Having had the misfortune to have met him, I can state that he is a shoiteh vegas ruach and a menuval who, like all actors, is very good at fooling people. He is lucky I am not even close to being a violent man, because I felt like whacking him but good for his amazingly rude and childish behavior (he literally stuck his ugly mug in my face and made rude faces while the rav of the shul was wishing him hatzlocho) when he came to visit the shul where I used to daven in CH.
People like him make me realize that sometimes Lubavitch needs to say "shygetz aross" (albeit rarely and with much regret).
And Mottel, indeed Matisyukel should be given some room to grow - azoy vi a tzibele, mitten kop in der erd!
Breslov? Chabad? Karliner?
Tomorrow Yannkies or Mets
I didn't say I agree with him or his choices, but people are people and make decisions for better or worse. He is no different.
I'm so impressed. This guy is way more on the ball than I ever thought he did. I love how he states in the article that he just began learning Gemara this year. Great chinuch. Did the Alter Rebbe start with Tanya? Goo luck Matis!
SDR
I didn't think you were that naive, really now.
All Lubavitcher BT Yeshivos have very serious Gemoroh learning, with Artscroll Gemoros and all. The fact that Matthew says that he just started learning this year tells me one of 2 things:
1) He never showed up for learning at Hadar HaTorah and only went for the Farbrengens,
2) He's a LIAR.
Either way makes him a pretty loose character.....
Maybe in Karlin he'll get lots of Gemoroh............
I don't think he implied that it's his first time learning Gemoro; re-read what he wrote.
That aside, an average product of such yeshivos (or even the better ones) can barely teitch gemoro. There are plenty houses that own dozens upon dozens of volumes of "chassidus" and do not own a single masechta. And the ones that do own a set, it's often gathering dust. It's an absolute hepach of a pre-chorban chosid, who could and did learn quite a lot. Kehos did the job here, by churning out volumes upon volumes of new books that were put ahead of everything else.
I'm with Mottel... I don't think that his decision was necessarily a bad one, but the public attention that he's given his religious shift is what gets him this bad rap with Lubavitchers. But then again, his entire rise to fame was by throwing his religious beliefs around in the public spectrum and there may have been no way out of this for him.
Saygec Arosz Baczi- "like all actors, is very good at fooling people."
I would hardly give the guy the distinction of being an actor- he always came across as a little naive to me- especially back in the hat and jacket days.
U'N'- Maybe then Artscroll and Oiz Vehadar should learn from Kehos' marketing strategy and put their books at 50% off once in a while. I know I would own as much Nigleh as Kehos if that were the case...
lubavitch yeshivos learn Nigleh way more succeful then the veltishe yeshivos. we have much more success with our limud in nigleh and that is becuase we learn chasidus! but U"n your stam an am haaretz that hates jews so you wouldnt understand...
Lubavitch at its finest!!
Now they are 'basheygetzing' him for wanting to see and experience othe frum groups.After all in Lubavitch and especially Crown Heights all other groups and ideas are strongly 'verboten', in addition to the fact that no other frum groups will live with Lubabs, so he has had zero exposure to normal frum Jews.
Keep it up she-goat!With you 'defense' Lubab need no ememies!
It is normal that an average BT does not know to learn Gemoro, even after 4 years of Yeshivah, and this is not only for LUb Yeshivos, but any Yeshivah
But the point is that an Am haaretz can not be a chossid, so Mattis never was a Lub Chossid, he is a Jew that is looking. Tomorrow he can become friendly with Arunis or Zalys, Bovober ,Vishnitz, Sqauere,
Of course we get our backs up here - having "one of us" abandon ship feels like a personal sting to many of us.
Agreed - Matisyahu has his issues but we do, too. Unfortunately, there are many kapote-wearing BTs who are far from where they have to be in learning and knowledge of halacha.
Shluchim need to refrain from getting guys to slap on the black hat because as we know, if it was easy to put on, it's even easier to take off - just then it hurts.
I think this is absolutely fantastic.
For the first time in a long time, we finally have someone leaving Chabad and NOT moving out of Yiddishkite but into another group of Frum jews.
It says alot. It is plainly obvious that the whole reason that Chabad enjoyed the company of Mathew is because of the added PR he could generate for them. This sits in line with the Cunins, Shem Tovs, Feldmans, Gutnicks, Lazars.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY
And look at the effect that he has on frum kids. How much of his music produced under the guidence of Chabad today enthused kids to learn more, to be closer to Hashem.
Really check: It took them out to Raves all around the US and the world, allowing them to dance with Goyim - no mechitzahs provided, however booze, drugs and loose sex
Where were the Rabbonim in Chabad trying to ensure the saftey of our kids?
"Chabad enjoyed the company of Mathew is because of the added PR he could generate for them"
Chabad enjoyed the company of Mattisyahu as it enjoys the thousands of other Ba'alei Teshuva out there. A Jew is a Jew whether he can learn, sing, talk or none of the above. The PR was just an added benefit, U'Kinireh Bimuchash: he wasn't Mekareved as a celebrity, he was just another Jewish college kid. He was already entirely frum before he achieved any bit of fame (and notoriety).
outsider
"Where were the Rabbonim in Chabad trying to ensure the saftey of our kids?"
the main reason that Mattis left Lub, in reality, is all the bashing that he got from Rabbonim,and athers Lbs, chillul Lub, etc
Instead of seeing this as someone leaving your derech in search of some other equally valid derech in Yiddishkeit that may be more "noteh" to his neshoma, You Lubavitchers have to try to find reason to knock him because in reality ,(although you won't admit it),Lubavitch feels there are no other valid derochim in Yiddishkeit ...To prove my point, how many Lubavitchers will let their daughters marry non lubavitchers because they will then have to adopt the husband's minhagim.Why won't Lubavitchers teach the Torah of other rebbes or other later day Gedolim? What a pity you are such elitists!
We knock nothing but his departing words, which are degrading and ungrateful. If you can't see that see a doctor.
Tzig, we know he is willing to be untrue in public, because he lied about this being a process of four years.
As I said above, he will always be a fellow Jew. Seems like his wife is taking issue with his wandering anyway.
I don't know much about Karlin, but it seems to me, from the reasons he chose it, that he likes their style of Davening. If that's the case, I am under the impression that he is still very much connected with Chassidus Chabad but he likes to Daven longer, something which wasn't incorporated in Lubavich (in the framework of a Minyan anyway.)
Denial!!
A common thread in the New Lubabism.
They deny their leaders corporeality(I've always tried to figure out why the Rebbe cannot die according to Lubavitch.The best answer I got from one of them was 'he said he could not' Wonderful logic.I think the reason they believe he cannot die is that they consider him to be God.I cannot fathom out any other reason)
They also deny that anybody would want to leave Lubavitch to another, normal group.He must have an agenda.Right.Maybe he has figured out that he was part of a Jim Jones-kool aid group and decided to leave.
saygetz
Well, now, if that was his intention then Karlin of all places is the wrong place to go to. At least Lubavitchers have a Rebbe who was a great Gaon and Baal Mofes, as well as lived a life of great simplicity. The Karliner never said a word of Torah, is always traveling 1st class, often by himself, and the 1st thing they teach you there (and I speak from experience, me being a former Talmid of Stoliner Yeshivah) is that their Rebbe is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And they belived that when he was a CHILD!!!!!
Obviously you have an unbridled hatred Lubavitch, seemingly taught to you by your Naarishe 10th grade Rebbe somewhere, so I can hardly blame you, but Please, don't speak about others when you have no idea.
Tzig,
Which one of his comments striked you as ungrateful and degrading ?
In general, this is interesting, given that Baal haTanya was initially a Karliner - and now a full circle is made.
ex-Stoliner, you are a sad tipesh. Your ex-rebbe is a HUGE talmid chochom and an even HUGER chochom who has the respect of every single gadol who has met him.
His chassidim are mainly gehoybene people who appreciate his gadlus. Individuals like you - should indeed not be in Stolin.
As for Matisyahu - he won't last in Stolin either. or the next place he lands.
I hope that in a couple of years Matthew joins us
Where Matisyahu goes is entirely a matter for him. I agree with Hershel in that he could have been more gracious about leaving but it might be what he was taught to do. Do you feel comfortable hearing BTs talk about the good parts of their former lifestyle? If you don't, then you're teaching them to shake the dust from their feet when they move on, and that's just what Matisyahu is doing.
Late to the party here but here's my $0.02.
I concur with the opinion stated above that M. just starting to learn gemara now means that he was basically asleep during his 3-4 years in Hadar HaTorah. Rav Yaacov Goldberg, ShLITA, the Rosh HaYeshiva, gives a phenomenal gemara shiur that should awaken the interest of anyone willing to listen. I certainly came away with the ability to learn a blatt and to keep a chevrusah going with a few YU/RIETS folks. If M. never learned how to learn at Hadar HaTorah it is because he is either an idiot (not very likely IMHO) or was a slacker during his time there.
It is certainly good that he is seeking broader horizons. I did the same in my growth phase. However, one of the requirements, if you will, of being an adult is taking responsibility for the decisions you make and realizing there are no perfect outcomes. If you reject one path because of a newly discovered downside what will prevent you from doing the same elsewhere? His overall attitude strikes me as adolescent immaturity dressed up in a sirtuk/bekishe/rekel!
Runamok
Lubavitch does not have one 'downside'.It has turned into a cult.The best proof of its cultish status is the inability of many to accept the Rebbes passing, though it happened over 13 years ago and after a debilitating period of 2 1/2 years, so for all practical reasons the Rebbe has been silent for 16 years.And they still claim he is 'alive'!!!
Now don't tell me that you yourself don't say that, which may be true,HOWEVER, you are a member of such a group where the worldwide 'headquarters' is run by such people!!
Why is it immature if someone leaves because of this??
Btw, this is just the tip of the iceberg, I am only using the example of the Rebbe being 'alive', something that any sane person understands is beyond the pale to bring out the cult status.
Runamok,I know you disagree, but see, that is why you are part of the cult,YOU,are the one who has been fed enough kool-aid that you see nothing wrong with a whole group of YOUR people deificating R'MM Schneerson!Lets face it, saying a human being lives forever and ever is basically saying he is God, because only God lives forever and ever!
I know that in many Lubavitcher childrens heads the Rebbe is seen as God, these children will be the future 'shlichim'.Alas by that time Lubavitch will probably not be Jewish anymore.Christianity started out this way.
Turchin,
Your logorrhea above shows clearly you read neither the article nor my comment.
M says nowhere that the theological disconnect shown by many ANaSh is to blame for his departure. In fact, he has shown repeatedly that he has no problems with it at all! You raise a convenient strawman that is easy to knock down rhetorically but is meaningless in this discussion.
M says he is getting into meaningful gemara study now for the first time. Well, jumpin' Jehosephat, it's not the fault of Lubavitch as a whole nor his yeshiva in particlar that he failed to do so in years past; the sole responsibility for that lies with the man in the mirror. And, pray tell, why isn't he finding solace in a more mainstream, Americanische, YU-YI type environment if that is now providing meaning for him? Why this droning on about anderere kreizen un zeirier hanhagos? Sorry, I fail to see this as a result of deliberative soul-searching and striving after truth. Rather, this is nothing more than infantile attention-seeking; a temper tantrum, if you will. Pick up a tabloid celebrity rag at your local newsstand and you will get an eyefull of same to last a lifetime.
Regarding your "YOU,are the one who has been fed enough kool-aid..." attempted insult, you don't know the first thing about me, what/where I have studied, how I live or what I believe. If you had read the above, I intimated above at the diversity of viewpoints I have exposed myself to and continue to do so today. Meanwhile, you regurgitate the same tired, risible, fact-free talking points that have far too often graced any discussion on Lubavitch. So, who is it again who is drinking "Kool-Aid"?
Let me repeat. Where was this Matisyahu ungrateful or insultive of chabad ? So far it's just a bunch of paranoid posters with their usual knee-jerk reflex trying to put words into his mouth; I haven't seen a single word from M putting down C of L.
Runamok,
There is an elephant in the proverbial Lubavitch room that you conveniently side step, it's called DEIFICATION AND REBBE WORSHIP and its classic signs are the 'belief' that the Rebbe is 'chay vekayom beguf' although he has died many years ago.Many so called rabbis including members of the Crown Heights 'beis din' repeat the mantra of 'yechu hamelech leolom voed' it is not only 'newcomers and kooks'(I don't know if these rabbis actually believe this crap or it is politically expedient to preach it, either way they are not 'rabbis' either charlatans or poor kool-aided fools)
The funny thing is that you, a proud member of this cult accuses me of being a drinking kool aid!
Btw,I have followed this blog from its birth so I do know quite a bit about you from your own posts and by your own admission you attended Hadar Hatora the bt Lubab yeshiva.
Be well and stop drinking from the poisoned wells
Just to make it clear Runamok,
I don't know to what part of the Lubavitch belief system you buy into, whether you believe that the Rebbe is God like the Boreinuniks believe or that he is 'merely' alive forever and ever and ever a different form of the former or that you are not sure, so he is neither shlit'a not zatsal.I'm quite sure that he is still Nosi Hador, though he is deceased (can't figure out a dead nosi hador yet.I probably haven't learned enough chassidus for that!)
So even if you 'only' have the somewhat benign(but very silly) belief that he is nosi hador,YOU STILL PROUDLY ASSOCIATE WITH KOOKS!
this while there is such a wide kaleidescope of Orthodox groups and thought, that anybody cleaving to a dead rebbe where many of the hasidim hold of outrageous beliefs and not choosing a normal group is surely lacking in the intellectual dep. or suffering a major o.d of koo-aid
"There is an elephant in the proverbial Lubavitch room..."
...that is not the issue here. Pull your fingers out of your ears, take off the rose-colored glasses and try to process.
"I do know quite a bit about you..."
By applying stereotypes on the basis of the very scant information I have provided here it is clear that you don't have the foggiest notion of who I am. Likewise, I don't know the first thing about you nor do I think it matters. It would be pretty easy to project my preconcieved notions against you, however. Want to get into a mud-flinging contest? Fine with me.
"Be well and stop drinking from the poisoned wells."
As Rashi quotes ChaZaL, "Let he who reads the edict carry it out himself"! And I leave you on a good note.
For years Chabad (the party not the Chassiduth) has sufered from the revolving door syndrome and as they say Begadol BIG TIME. People become Lubavitch put on the shmone begadim ie the hat, sirtuk (we in Western White Russia say surdut) Arrow shirt, no tie etc etc get married father kids and then they are gone . This happens to men and women . On a famous level people like Dr. Laura, Matisyahu and Yosef Begun of Russia are a few examples of people who left and the others besides M left Judaism biklal.
Perhaps Chabad ought to put the stress on having people gradually become frum and do it in small steps.In general Chabad outreach needs a serious cheshbon hanefesh , not PR sessions , but meetings where people can realy tlak about what really is happeningon the ground, like a real farbrengun!
I wish Matisyahu all the best in ruchniyus and geshem, but may I be allowed a prediction that in 2-3 years he will no longer be observant. halevai I be wrong..
HAS IT CROSSED ANYBODY'S MIND THAT MAYBE IT'S THE BT'S THEMSELVES THAT PUT ON THE SHMAYNEH BEGODIM SO QUICKLY AND IT'S NOT THE SHLUCHIM THAT CONDONE IT???
"HAS IT CROSSED ANYBODY'S MIND THAT MAYBE IT'S THE BT'S THEMSELVES THAT PUT ON THE SHMAYNEH BEGODIM SO QUICKLY AND IT'S NOT THE SHLUCHIM THAT CONDONE IT???"
HT, Schneur (and others with open ears...),
There are plenty of shluchim out there who are plenty quick to press new BTs to adopt the Levush quickly. Believe me, I was under plenty of pressure from well-meaning Shluchim in my early years to do just that. My decision to do so came after much deliberation, "fact-finding" and about a decade after first contact. Others (M is only the loudest example), eager for the frummie "quick fix" adopt it all immediately. I find it funny when I am chided for not following the real Derech ChaBaD by folks that were Ochlei Neveilos un Mechalalei Shabbos just a year before (and in more than one case were again so within another year).
So, Hirsh, the answer is both; there are superficial BTs seeking the easy way to Teshuvah and unscrupulous (and I use that term sparingly) shluchim simply looking to recruit for the team with no regard to the long term consequences.
Schneur -since when was Dr. Laura Chabad? Her giur wasn't through Chabad, and her leaving was due to her yeshus and the lack of attention that she wanted from us. Perhaps we should add you to the list though . . .
M'inyan L'inyan for as many shluchim that push the levush, I know as many that are merachek it b'shtei yadayim -I grada have a post on the subject in my blog (I've got to dig it up).
Matisyahu is what he is, chabad didn't make his shtick nor will it break him.
tzig,
Sorry, it's not enough for the shluchim to simply 'not pressure' the bt's into the fast track; they should go even further and encourage these type of folks to 'go slow'. And guess what -plenty of shluchim do just that; more should follow their example.
Not only that, some - probably most - should NEVER take on the garb, since they are just modern orthodox anyway. Who are they fooling?
i don't think that Mathew would have being succesfull if not the chassidishe lebushim
he cannot drop the lebushim b/c he lose his carrier
it is not that he e is exploring Judaism,now chassidishe lebushim mean lot of money for him
if he drops Chabad he is in a dangerous situation
i can tell you that i work even harder to slow down the eager and enthusiastic bal tshuvas than being mekarev them. to put on a surtuk i allow only when they have reached a high level of knowledge and commitment.
shliach
well, I don't know what kind of shliach u r. I saw some shluchim that cut their birds, don't weare hats,(only Shabbos)color shirts,etc
i actually wear a surtuk during the week
Shliach,
Kol HaKovod for doing the right thing. In fairness, most of your colleagues do as you do and encourage new BTs to proceed Ilah veAlul in their observances. Hopefully you can have a Hashpa'ah on the few (but loud) that don't.
Many of us are buying into his celebrity status, ie, if a celebrity thinks azoy or does something it must be true/have good reasons. its just not the case. He is a simple yid, not the sharpest of cookies, who started out in life without any real yiddishkeit knowledge. He had an urban experience with chabad with a measured level of depth and he is movin' on. (poor wife and kids)Its too darn tough. the temptations of being a celebrity in his low class arena of 'music' and having a yetzer hara is just too much of a challenge for him to stay, even if he really wants to. For that alone, he should be commended for leaving. For the sake of Lubavitch, GOOD BYE, for his sake GOOD LUCK.
Why is it a "low class" area ? I'm still waiting for an explanation what exactly they found so ungrateful and insulting in his words. Nothing but blind paranoid partisans is what some people are.
I think you all miss Tziggy's point. He's not criticizing MotherYahoo's leaving Lubavitch and he's agreeing that there are other valid groups out there.
He's merely pointing out how convenient it seems that when Lubavitch was making him famous (and there can be no doubt that it was the Campus Shluchim that gave him alot of the national exposure helping his career take off)he was all the super Lubav. Then once he was signed to Sony, he suddenly "found himself" as well as suddenly the Shluchim who could always reach him directly were now receiving the brush-off by a Sony agent (this info coming directly from various Campus Shluchim).
Incidentally, around the same time, he also screwed JDub - the people whose amazing PR work made him a household name (they're the ones who got him on Kimmel and Lederman, etc.)- leaving them completely out of the Sony contract. Jdub btw has nothing to do with Lubavitch or any frum group. So his trend of using others in not an anti-Lubav agenda but rather just a general lack of loyalty.
As for his belief in G-D, I'm not the one to judge, but anyone familiar with his collabration with (Christian not Lubav)missionary band POD (on their album "testify" singing a song that glorifies missionaries - a brilliant career move that gained him a large Christian following)might conclude that his belief in G-D might require further scrutiny as well. Is it coincidental or does his religious belief system seem to coincide and change with an apparent marketing strategy?
RIGHT ON, mENDEL.
All I have to say is that Hadar HaToireh is probably the best yeshiva for non-Lubavitchers in ther world. People keep referring to it as a BT yeshiva. But there are plenty of bochurim like me from Poilishe and Litvak backgrounds (my family actually were Kapusters) who came to Hadar HaToireh to learn by the Lubavitch shittah. When I was there, I even learned in yiddish most of the time. I am so sorry that the good and honorable name of Hadar haToireh has been associated to this yungerman.
I was able to find good information from your blog posts.
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