(demonstration scheduled for today)
If you happen to see the Yiddish newspapers in your local grocery or newsstand then you may think that you're living in an alternate universe. That is if English is your choice language and you consider yourself a mainstream frum Jew. While the Yated and Hamodia may discuss general news or news that affects you locally, the Yiddish papers are busy with demonstrations and protests in Israel. [That and weddings and shidduchim in Rebbishe Hoyfen.] To them this is THE issue of the day, even if only 5-10 people are doing the demonstrating. Which goes to show us how we all live in our little world. Again; I'm not discussing whether or not it's important, just how we all see things.] If you ask Mr. Wercberger from Wilson Street what he thinks are the issues of the day that should concern a frum Jew chances are he'll tell you about gravediggers and demonstrations. He may thrown in some Satmar politics for good measure, if there are any, but that's about it. Which shows us how we're all so preoccupied with ourselves. Of course Mr. Yeshivish reads all about the latest riveting Lakewood happenings, such as car accidents, Hachnosas Sefer Torahs, and the latest hachtoroh in Lakewood's newest neighborhood, but he won't necessarily think that his little event is what makes the world go 'round. Mr. Wercberger will, and he'll wonder how dare you don't think like he does.
The Yiddish paper tells you that the Yahadus HaCharedis is out there in force demonstrating. You look around. You consider yourself a charedi Jew, and so does the Belzer next to you doing his grocery shopping and looking at the newspapers with you. He too scratches his head and wonders what he missed here. How was it that he wasn't informed about what people like him are doing! At first he thinks that maybe it was on the agenda for next week, but then he sees how it already happened, with hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands - depending on the writer's mood - attending! After some thought you realize that nisht dir meint men... The only Jews that are considered Charedim - that tremble at the sound of G-d and his commandments are those that demonstrate against grave digging. That may be the case - but it sure doesn't make you feel very welcome, now does it? It also doesn't make you want to take time off from work and join your Charedi brothers, now does it? Which brings us to the topic of this thread: who decides what makes you Charedi and what isn't enough? Can I decide that the most important issue in my life is kiruv or checking fish for worms and that it's THOSE issues that make me and keep me Charedi, or do I need to follow either the Agudah or Satmar? Food for thought. But in truth we're all like that - more or less. We may not judge your frumkeit by the color of your socks or the shape of your hat, but we sure would like it if you did what we all do. It's just that they have this way of writing that makes us very, very uncomfortable. Other than that it's all the same.
74 comments:
If you are reading it, it must be important to you if you are affected. A true reporter is objective and detached.
The same holds true fur zein blog.
You discuss what you find newsworthy and one might wonder what to conclude about you based on your focus or is it lack of focus on a minor group of chassidim whose avodah you raRELY
discuss...
I saw yesterday in 1 of the Satmar newspapers commenting(humorously since he was far from Kanoies))that the reason the 2nd Satmarer Rebbe(Bierech Moshe) partitioned Satmar in to 2 Kehillas that all the future Protest will be multiplied in to 2 one for Aronim and one Zalonim. Its all a show for the other side that I exist and I am good at producing a nice show in midtown Manhattan, First it was the weddings, now its already run of the mill, so both sides needs some new shock and awe.So they found some bones of dogs and cats in a parking lot in Ashkelon and then on to the show they go.
I am not getting it, yesterday was a extreme hot day, and the shikses in the city were not wearing Burkas, Oy vey where is the Shemiras Eieniem? Maybe Rabbi Glantz asked the Mayor to keep all the Shikses home?
This was a hilarious, especial the end. Who makes up all the sack clothe and coffins. These guys need to find alternative sources of entertainment. Other than putting on plays in Manhattan.
What I want to know is why normal Jews who support the continued existence of the State of Israel continue to buy products with the CRC label on them and the label of mitschleppers of the CRC.
In Israel they are working on a boycott of Badatz products ?
I urge the OU to discontinue the practice of double endorsing products with heimishe hashgoches until the baal amchshir places an ad in the yated or the JP. that he either supports the continued existence of Israel or believes the state should be dissolved and taken over by the European Union , UN or Obama. Enough of the tzevius. I have noted amillion times the rbbe screamed lo mehem velo mehmonam about the CRC. Or perhaps its okay to demonstartae while the pM is in North America ?
Schneur,
Lets face it,they have the biggest crowd of Ice cream consumers , I don't know why exactly? since they are only 12 to 13 thousand families, and the charadie world is much larger then that. But a company like Kliens Ice cream that is a strong belzer family fell for their crowd and threw out the Debrecener rov that certified them for over 40 years to get the CRC Certification.I guess their consumption in fress is very lucrative for business people.
Schnour,
You are right that it's high time to boycott the Sakmoirem and their Gebleemteh nuchshleppers.In this case pressure needs to be brought against the Gebleemteh Ayatollah from Monroe by banning his very successful chicken production for example .The other grand guy from Williamsburg cancelled his demonstartion and deserves credit.So it is not so much the Hisachdes aka CRC but the the Upstate guy who needs to understand that when yidden are in danger he better lay off his bored goons.
This Ahmadinijad guy from Iran?I can't stand him!He reminds me of the Gebleemteh from Monroe!Yuck
Schneur:
Indeed, you raised an important and critical topic which is worth to discuss openly: that is if Israel, as we know it, “can" be dissolved in a peaceful way and turned into a multi-national state. And this is what I concluded. After 62 years of its existence, they can hardly prove what they really contributed to the Jewish people.
From a religious point of view, religious Jews in the Diaspora conduct the same observant lifestyle as in Israel. From an economical point of view, Jews in the entire world live under the same or better economic conditions than Jews in Israel. And from a social and security point of view, 25,000+ Jewish lives were killed either on the battlefield protecting the state or by terrorist attacks in Israel. And unlike Jews abroad, Jews in Israel still live under a constant threat of enemies who are willing to inhale them ch"v.
On top of that, Israel and its policies is, indirectly, the main feeder of Anti-Semitism in today's world. The Christian hostility that we suffered from in centuries that cost millions of Jewish lives is currently almost non existent. Instead, with the creation of the State of Israel, which is known as a Jewish State, a new hostility was created against all Jews, and almost every attack against Jews is related to events in Israel. The murder of our dear friend, Ari Halberstam hy”d, is just one example.
So let’s not be so emotional when it comes to Israel, and after 62 years of living in dreamland, it is time to wake up and think objectively about the real contribution they made to the Jewish people. Did they make us more secure, or more vulnerable? Did “Israel” eliminate anti-Semitism, as it was Herzl’s false dream, or did it, and still does, fuel anti-Semitism? Did they make us economically better or they cost Jewish money that could have been spent on better and real Jewish causes?
Isn’t the proliferation of authentic Yiddishkeit after the holocaust in Diaspora, such as in Crown heights, Boro Park, Williamsburg, Lakewood, Monsey, Montreal, London, Antwerp, Melbourne, Argentina, without a slightest help from the state of Israel testament that Yidishkeit has nothing to do whatsoever with the state of Israel, instead it is thanks to inspiration of Gedolie Yisroel who lived in those countries? With enacting the law requiring women to serve in the idf didn Israel became a defender of Torah Jews or a threat by defending a secular state on the expense of Torah Jews?
When reconciling the above, it is worth to consider this idea of dissolving the state of Israel. Although it is a long shot, it is clearly on the table as the chariedim, who really care more about Torah than Israel, will one day, by years 2030-2040, become the majority. So, if Israel “can”- with emphasis on CAN- be dissolved in a peaceful way, it will be a great benefit to all Jews.
(The other stuff you wrote about stems from pure jealousy and sinas chinum, not worth to comment)
Faish
It seems that you took a side between the Sunni and the shites, you have some issues to grind with the older brother. The fact is that both guys are on a dangerous route to ruin the safety of Achine Bnei Yisroel bEretz Hakodesh for their personal gains, the skmarer Leshem Shomaim(which never existed) is buried in 3 cemeteries in orange county NY
Anon (natrunoa supporter)
"From a religious point of view, religious Jews in the Diaspora conduct the same observant lifestyle as in Israel."
Judging from a religious viewpoint, their is no comparison between the amount of Yiden that are Maimis Beholie shel torah Bepalatarin shel melech in towns like Kiryath Sefer, Benai berak, Jerusalem,( I am not talking Mercaz Horav chas vesholem, they are going to hell) you are comparing a yeshiva world of 100 of thousand vs. a little kolel in KJ or in willi. Every bocher in the world of the Yeshiversher torah world in the Us is a disciple of the Isreali yeshi world, ask them why they are going their,The Torah is in Israel, The few Yungeliet in the Keap street kolel or in KJ that learn Gerifa Uketima for the last 50 years are not even a blip on the screen in the torah world.
"Gerifa Uketima"
Please enlighten us. What is that?
I don't think the (Snag) Americans need Israel too much. They are considering abolishing it; many can't figure out why they can't learn in Americhkah.
Anon (natrunoa supporter)
"From a religious point of view, religious Jews in the Diaspora conduct the same observant lifestyle as in Israel. "
lets talk the about the Jewish problem of assimilation, did Isreal save 6 million jews of assimilation? thousands upon thousands are brought back Tachas Kanfie Haschina, Sefardim thru the great party of shas and the Great Reb Ovadia that you idiots love to malign. At the same time the whole USA Jewry is getting wiped out,its ironic how the Sakmer rov that was the self proclaimed leader of the Torah jewry was bleeding for some swimming pool in Yerushaliem but didn't do 1 iota for kiruv on a Jew from the red shul on Bedford avenue corner Clymer, that were 90% assimilated. you people have a insane obsession with the 3 oaths,and don"t tell me that the Klal Yisoel situation is your problem.
"Gerifa Uketima"
if you don't know it, you are not jewish
OHHHHHHHHH. Shin someting. Now I remember. The chasidish accent through me off. (We tie a ribbon besides for a Blech per Reb Moshe's ruling; you nidriker beryah who cares more about women in bullet proof stocking driving cars then playing russian roulette with a questionable Eiruv - fech)
"but didn't do 1 iota for kiruv on a Jew from the red shul on Bedford avenue corner Clymer,"
Get over it. Their were Gedeyley Oylam who felt that building up the frummer takes precedence. Reb Yoilesh is responsible for more people being frum than the Rebbe, in that regard.
"Anon (natrunoa supporter)"
"From an economical point of view, Jews in the entire world live under the same or better economic conditions than Jews in Israel"
every household in Israel has bread on there table and a good health care from the zionst government.Most of them don't have this great ungarishe fargrebte geshmak of a Honda Odyssey minivan with a chandeliers in all 5 bedrooms with the Rebetzins cheesecake. They are happy with their lifestyles. The Zionist economy is booming on a better percentage then the Golden calf of the USA, their banks were considered more healthier then the US and EU by the big storm ,they have more successful upstart companies with universally hedge fund investors then any country in the globe. it is the hottest place for investments.I guess your "Imponhangike" media as the Der Yid Der Blatt, didnt see as important to report to you,If certain Jews chose not to be part in it don't blame Shneur for that.
Anon (natrunoa supporter)",
"So let’s not be so emotional when it comes to Israel,"
so shut up and leave them the alone, and let them fight their own battles and spend the wasted Natronoa money on your Chandeliers
"every household in Israel has bread on there table and a good health care from the zionst government"
Are you kidding me? Ever actually lived in Meah Shearim, Geulah or Zichron Moshe? The dachkos is noyrah v'oyom.
Anon 2:41pm
You are apparently the same Anon poster from a Boro Park backround (or similar)who became a Lubavitcher and always "apologises" for the Lubavitch and their nonsense.
Whatever.
In any case, apparently your comprehension skills are still very undeveloped.I am not "taking" sides in the nasty "turf war" of the gebleemteh "Banshakim" mamshichey haderech.What I pointed out was the credit due to the banshak that realized he must cancel his "protest" while the other Gebleemteh continues with his terrible folly of joining the bandwagon against Yidden in a time of danger just like the Netirei Karta and their evel followers.
Boycott KJ chickens now!!!!
We need to pressure the Monroe Banshak with warnings of a boycott of his sconomic interests and not like the silly Lubob boycott on the CRC that does not effect them at all because they don't care about the two and a half stores in Crown Heights that won't buy their stuff
Are you kidding me? Ever actually lived in Meah Shearim, Geulah or Zichron Moshe? The dachkos is noyrah v'oyom.
Yes, and it is self inflicted at that. The money is there if the gedeilim demand that their "chassidim" make the necessary keilim. If they don't, well, that is not the fault of the "Tziyonistim".
"Are you kidding me? Ever actually lived in Meah Shearim, Geulah or Zichron Moshe? The dachkos is noyrah v'oyom."
Oh yeah???
Who stops them from getting a job???The "Tsiyoinem"???
They are all addicted to shnorr.
Anon
"actually lived in Meah Shearim, Geulah or Zichron Moshe? The dachkos is noyrah v'oyom"
do you know that you recieve From the Dammed zionist Kindergelt legitimate, its enough to feed a family if it is spend on food only, its not Schneurs fault if he uses it for his mortgage or to travel to Uman etc.. it is no different then 90 % of KJ that receive Food stamps in the Goldene Medina , plus the tuition is sponsored by the Damm Zionits legitimately, you don't need Sharie chemla cover up to pay your other institution
Faish
"apparently your comprehension skills are still very undeveloped."
I am happy to have as company Faish Einstien the self proclaimed non LUBed Chochom Hador
Anonymous.
Thanks for the "kind words". Now I have several questions to ask you. With no state of Israel where were all the shearis hapleitah- survivors of the Holocaust to go , to return to Poland perhaps to go to Chile , maybe to Eire or Northern Ireland, maybe remain in Tashkent, oder gor in Mantreall oder in Sao Paulo maybe as your good friends the Arabs say back to Auschwitz ?
Moving on where were all the heimishe Yidden (so who cares about other Jews now)who survived in Northern Rumania to go ? we are talking about tens of thousands of frume Jews. America had strict limits for immigrants.I am certain you have read the literature on the strict quotas the US had against emigrants and that inlcudes the govt of Pres. Truman. to these shores. I read the obituaries in DER YID and I am amazed how many of the greyse Satmar Chassidim left Rumania for Israel . You of course know that between 1956 and 1972 close to 400,000 Jews left Rumania for Israel. Few are married to Goyim in Israel..i guess it would have been better to remain and participate in Ceacescu's fierdike tischen oder to to to Janos Kadars's kreppel pshetlech.
Moving on where would all the Jewish Jews who left Russia after 1970 have gone ? To KJ , you really believe America would have admitted 500,000 plus Jews to these shores ? Wow Satmar could then satrt more kiruv movements in the uS for these Jews.Without Israel, the Soviet Jewry movement would have died from its inception.And Soviet Jews would have remained in their Mama Russia.
What about the Jews from the Arab countries. I am certain you of all people know about Arab nationalism and that has little to do with Zionism , you really believe that Arab nationalism after 1950 would have permitted Jews to remain in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Algeria Tunisia, and even Iran .where were these people to go to France is that the great Tore center France ?
And finally for now all the American and British Torah centers are yonek off Israeli Torah.
And you think the goyim in Antwerpen love the Yidden wth peyoth, how about the human Germans in Switzerland , they just kvell over the Charedim and the same is true of the Brits.
Let me say this its the Israeli existence thats puts the fear of G-D in these people.
Finally Yidden geyen arum mit bord und peyos und lange levush , don't you believe that hashem firt die velt ? Don't you believe that the creation of Israel was an event orchestrated by hashem or was Gods only manifestation in our material world the rescue of the Satmarer rebbe in 1944 ?
Anon
"actually lived in Meah Shearim, Geulah or Zichron Moshe? The dachkos is noyrah v'oyom"
it was only a few weeks ago that Reb Yisroel Hager went to Eastern Europe with a entourage of a few 100 Israeli Chassidim, each had to donate for the Mosdois $3000 not shekels, outside of the plane tickets. So tell me how many guys in New Square or from Lakewwod Kolelim can do it?
Anon (natrunoa supporter)
"The other stuff you wrote about stems from pure jealousy and sinas chinum, not worth to comment)"
what is the other stuff that you feel Shneur is jealous of? are you familiar with his instincts?
i don't consider these gangsters chareidi,these are criminaly insane
jew hatring gangsters WHO ARE MASQUeRaDING as hasidim,their yidishkeit is based on three things HATE,HATE ,HATE,
hate everybody who does not belong in their gang,i am absolutely sure had these gangsters lived 65 yrs ago,they would have been the kapo's herding their brothers and sisters into the gas chambers.
CHAIM
shneuer!!
so some one that does not have your opinion on the salvation of the universe , but sticks to the belief that Tzures yisroel in any shape or form is a Gezeira from Hashems as described in the TOchucha and the redemption from all those circumstances should and could not be solved by any human government only by meshiach and he waits for meshiach should be boycotted ,
i just wonder is this the only Aveirra on your list that deserves a boycott if there is more please tell me on what else is where your ahavas yisroel ends
from the photos that i see it looks like a small crowd
Anti semite
Were you given this by your parents?they really had ruach hakodesh
did Satmar Rebbe do everything in his power to get out of the German inferno? why didn't he stay their till the Moshiach will come to save him. Why is Satmar fighting their neighbors in Orange county for a stupid water pipe, who needs water their? Moshiach will bring water anyway, the Tochocho said that you have to die from thirst. Why is aron tietelbaum fighting aggressively his brother for materialistic gains? Moshiach will him bring everything he wishes.
Schneur,
We all heard your talking points already. Stop bringing up the past; all the yidden that the tzyonim shammeded up is irrelevant. The guy was commenting about the present.
Here's a simple explanation for all this side-show distraction: Social control. Especially when the main threats against traditional social control by the rabbinic elites come from communications devices and "vices" such as the Internet, cell phones, Ipods, etc all making huge inroads into the secluded bastions of the secluded Haredi elites, so here is a golden opportunity, it doesn't matter whose bones those are in Jaffa and Ashkelon, but the opportunity to create false mass unity and exhort the masses based on reliable bogeymen "Tzeeyoineem" is classical.
This is the way it works in all authoritarian and totalitarian societies unfortunately.
After all, who "died" that they are walking around in fake "mournful" mode with "coffins" in Manhattan yet where not so long ago on 9/11 2001 there were real dead and real coffins from Islamic terrorism which they SHOULD be condemning and maybe even say a public hallel for being saved from the catastrophe of the recent 2010 attempted Pakistani Times Square bomber. But no, they must protest what's going on in Ashkelon (that gets hit with long-range kassams from Gaza) where there is no Satmar kehilla and no scientist or archeologist can confirm what those bones were, when so many other rabbonim see no issues, where a hospital is being built that will one day cure the Satmars who today throw stones at it.
I was accosted by a Chosid and asked why there isn't more protest from other groups. I told him that based on what I read:
(a) There is a sofek who those bones belong to.
(b) It seems they may belong to goyim and not to yidden.
(c) There are big rabbonim who are matir moving them.
(d) Which reliable neutral archeologists back up the claims that they are Jews' bones? It is impossible to prove anything in this case.
(e) Israel is in a sha'as sakanah, and Ashkelon is on the front lines facing Gaza. It is a sha'as cheirum and hospitals are needed for sick and possible wounded ch"v.
(f) I stuck in that if pikuach nefesh is doche shabbos, that building a hospital is the biggest pikuach nefesh.
(g) If you have to make a macha'a go ahead, but don't burn down thing and throw stones at the police because who will be responsible if they ch"v fire on demonstrators? Who will be responsible for the shedding of live human blood?
(h) Finally, I threw in that there is a need to build up Eretz Yisrael and that sometimes there will be problems along the way, but it is important to worry about the NEEDS of the living and it cannot be stopped when every inch of Eretz Yisrael is a graveyard covered with the blood and bones and flesh of millions of Jews who perished there millenia ago yet the building and yishuv ha'aretz must go on.
Needless to say, my interlocutor did not buy it. He just wanted to know why Agudah etc wasn't joining in the protests and that it just showed "who was in bed bed with everyone else" and I said I hoped that only married people were in bed with their own spouses, vehamaivin yavin.
This just shows how deluded these people really are.
CBT
They are not protesting the bones , its only a opportunity to show your force of the masses (since that is the only thing Satmar can come up with)for the other brother,Most of them know it, some imbeciles buy the nonsense. BTW, I heard that the digging stopped already 2 weeks ago and they know it, but the party has to go on.
Anon (Natronoa)
"When reconciling the above, it is worth to consider this idea of dissolving the state of Israel"
how about considering laeving Willi and give it the Bohemian trash that are surronding Willi , they like their bike lanes and you people are Misgare Beomus? according to Sakmer Rov erroneous peshat in the Maharal its Yerag Veal Yaharog.
How about considering leaving Monroe, since all the surrobndiong neighbors wish your demise, its Hisgaros /Beimos at its worse.
it is revolting to see some guy katz and his sons are sitting in their air conditioned chandilered houses are paskening dinie nefoshas on the whole of Klal Yisroel, he does not even have halocha of a Zokan Mamrie, since they area bunch of Marmorisher Am Haratzim Gemirim
and while we are on the subjact of question. here is another one of the same nature
WHY is CHABAD the ONY chasidus who say theie DEAD REBBE is still ALIVE
Anon
chabad is saying so because they believe so, you can go on with your life now
1 the satmar rebbi was sending slichim to south america 60 years ago to build kihelos. 2. No big posek allows the bones to be removed.
Tziki K
Whom did he send Rav Lietner to make Shinon Wiess a frumme yid? which posek is big in your eyes? how big do you have yo be to give a pesak on this matter? is it enough he should be as big as the Breslever dayan that gave a heter for the Toldois Aron chasidim kohanim to go on the miron hill with all the kevorin underneath? Is Miron more pikuach nefesh then a emergency room in Ashkelon?
Who is matir...2 chief rabbi and the chief rabbi of safat who doesn't know the diffence between a grave and a cemetery ...ve su lo...
Tziki K
Their are many Rabonim that are matir, but FYI the Sefardic rav of Tzefas is a boki beshas and poskim, he is a far bigger talmid chochen then Rav Weiss the chief rabbi of the Eidah a Melamed from Belgium that was dragged to fill a Job that was about to be stolen by the Zali faction. Rav Elayao is a Goan on his 2 feet.
If I were a rich man, I would urge Tzig to open a publishing house small but very chashuv. First we would collect H. Dubrowsky's essays in Yiddish and reprint them in book form.
Next we would reprint DEr Rebbe und der Satan, with an Englsih translation And we would sell it for $1-. There is much more.
Anon,
You are such a Lubob apologist and snake!
The Sephardy rabbi of Tzfas is an alumnus of the Mizrachi yeshiva Mercaz Harav, not exactly the place you want an ehrlicher rov to come out of with all due respect.
R'Tuvyya Weiss is a world renowned Goan, who was on the Beis Din in Antwerp not a "melamed".He was held of in the highest esteem by such greats as the Beis Yisroel of Ger,R'Yoel of Satmar, R'Itzikel and R'Yankaleh, the Peshevorsker rebbes.
His one big "chesoron" was that he was a very humble and unassuming person, and not so well known outside of Europe.Besides for everything else he is twice the age of Rabbi Eliyahu from Tzfas.I don't mean disrespect for Rabbi Eliyahu, but he is befeirush not a Heimishe ruv.
You are really a snake.
Yechiel
"You are such a Lubob apologist and snake!" snake I understand where did I apologize for lubavich exactly?
Did u see one original pesak from the Great Posek that we delivered from Belgium? is he some chernobler rebbe that has to hide his nigleh?
It could be that all the Rebbes had derech eretz for him as they probably had it for many other good jews that were Melamdim for yeshiva Ketane boys.Rav Eliyou is a Talmud Chochom that does not need recommendation of reb Itzikel.
"Rav Eliyou is a Talmud Chochom that does not need recommendation of reb Itzikel."
He "only" needs your anonymous haskumeh.Wonderful.
Eliyahu is a Mizarachi Ruv.You want to rely on Mizrachi Rabbunem?Go ahead.
I don't.
R'Tuvyeh is on a much higher darge than your rebbe
Shneur:
Wow..! I didn’t realize that my comments, of the possibilities of abolishing the state of Israel which will be beneficial to ALL Jews, will get some people so emotional. Perhaps I didn’t explain my self well.
Firs the real problem for Israel: by all estimates Israel will see major demographics changes in the coming years. From one side the Palestinians who are expected to triple by 2030, and from the other side the Chariedim, who couldn’t care less about nationalism, are expected to be the majority by 2030-2040. In light of this it seems that Israel has no real future.
In addition, the world nations no longer favor Israel as it used too in the years following the holocaust; the momentum is shifting in favor of the Palestinians. The secular Israelis are more interested to mingle with the mainstream world than to fight for a religious state. So as peculiar this may sound, the only solution, except a Mizrachi suicidal losing war h”y, is to come to terms that Israel as we know it is no more and it all was a nice dream for a couple of years.
So the idea that I was exploring is if we “can” abolish the state, meaning: if we can transform Israel into a multi national state, where Arabs and Jews will live peacefully side by side, with no preference to either group, and it will be run equally by a multi national government, then maybe the bloodsheds will stop.
I am not trying to I oversimplify it; it may take years for the Arabs to overcome all the years they were under Israeli occupancy. But, let’s not be so naïve and it is time to start preparing for that day, and to start a reconciliation process rather then to perpetuate a losing ideology.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe himself was also a not an avid Zionist. In his first years he was anti, but because he was a practical person he believed that Israel must defend themselves. If Lubabitcher Rebbe would have lived today he would have still be a practical person.
(Your comments about Jews being forced out from Arab countries by their hostile neighbors, is proof of what a great job PR job the mossad had done. Please see Mishpacha, issue 308, where the local Jews who still live in morocco refute that claim, according to those non-satmar jews, it was the mossad who created the havoc against the Jews, so they will be forced to leave to Israel.
Your other comments of visa quotes after the holocaust or after the 1956, Russian immigration, are self refuted from all books that aren’t accessible to you.)
Yechiel,
Yes,my friend I do rely on Mizrach rabonim but only the ones that don't go to secular courts or the Begatz that is my criteria for a erliche rav. I guess I have the reform shulchan oruch and you have the real one
Anon,
Your way of apocalyptic thinking is also the fate for the whole western culture, Countries like Great Britian, France will be changed totaly in 40 to 50 years, the only baby producers in these countries are the muslims. Even putin is scared that russia will be cut down to 75 million people in a half a century, so can you please offer your expertise for them on country sharing for these countries. Did you ever think that the arab world can maybe modernize in their way of thinking, did you forsee the future of Iraq to go from a dictatosrship to a fullfledge democracy (with many problems). Did you follow the news what is happening in Iran that a silent majority is not happy with its totaltarian regime. The EU is thank G-d about to crumble, it was also a organized mouthpiece of sinas Am Hayoshev Betzion Do you reliaze that hashem has is masterplan for the future of the world. The bottom line is,that saying longrange future is ludicrous and bigtime kefira. Currently Eretz Yisroel is a safe country and please don't be on the side of the Rotzchim annd Rodfim, use all your energy to help them politicaly and finacialy. Nobody tought in Europe that Hitler will wipe out European Jewry(not even the tzadikim it was a hastores ponim) and nobody believed that Am Yisroel will get from the UN a independent country.
Your comments make you look as an ignorant, old-fashioned Zionist. I have not predicted anything unimaginable; Israel is in a major dilemma with its over 3.5 Palestinians who live in the occupied territories.
But first for the record: I have no relationship with the Palestinians, and I couldn’t care less about their plight, let the world take care of them. But because Israel calls itself a Jewish state, every Jew is in the eyes of the world automatically associated with them and is responsible for their crimes of which they are accused of, and-haven forbid- all Jews can suffer the consequences of their actions as it has happened in the past. For Jewish reasons, all Jews have a responsibility to discuss openly (at least in a Jewish forum) the politics of Israel, and the very existence of Israel, and if it’s worth the price of 25,000 Jews killed rch” l and a worldwide hatred towards Jews.
Almost the entire world is on the Palestinian side. Israel is accused of committing war crimes, human-rights violations, oppression and stealing land. This view is shared by the Arab nations, the UN, the EU, Obama and elite Jewish groups alike. The labeling of Anti-Semitism is long gone; instead Israel is now accused of racism, (or worse, of Nazism for denying the very existence of the Palestinian people as a Palestinian Nation). Except for the US media, Israel is viewed as an isolated ignorant and oppressing nation. If Israel continues with its current politics the world will isolate them economically. It is no longer a question if Israel will give back all the territories, but when.
Israel has two options. The first is that Israel return to its 1967 borders and remain a Jewish democratic state (the two-state solution). The second option is that Israel incorporate all the occupied territory, but no longer be a Jewish state (the one-state solution).(There is also a third option which was promoted by the shameless adulterer, Meir Kehana, that is Israel keep all the territory but, in order to remain a Jewish state, ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Haven forbid of the ramifications of this option; thank G-D that he is dead.)
When considering the chariedi growth you can imagine how Israel will appeal to the chilonim who are even now ready to dump the entire state to spend time in Manhattan or LA.
Your comparison of Muslims taking over European countries is laughable; Muslims are not disputing European land. Your comparison of Iran oppressing a silent majority proves my point; Israel will one day share the same faith. Iraq’s hardship in transforming into a democracy, shows that worse is better, and they should start now a reconciliation process.
If you really believe that hashem has his masterplan for the world, you should question the very idea of modern Zionism which defies hashem’s decree of Jews being in exile. Bigtime Kefirah means ignoring numerous Pesikim which talk of hashem carrying out the final redemption and taking matters in the own hand. And finally, are you kidding me? Who is on the side of the Rotzchim and Rodfim? Who is responsible of instigating the Arab world against all Jews? Please use all your energy to publicize what they have done to us spiritually and physically. How they were silent during the holocaust and how they made sure that everyone else remained silent. How they deliberately sabotaged the negations with the Nazis with hopes that the more Jews killed the better it will be for their agenda of the future state. What their cruel reaction was when asked for money to negotiate with the Nazis; Itche Greenbaum said: one cow in the new state is more worth than the European Jew.
Lastly, please take it slowly; don’t change your viewpoint completely. Otherwise, you can become like the NK’s who are physically in bed with Rotzchim and Rodfim. However, some objective thinking won’t hurt.
Anon
Full Diclosure, I never received a shekel from the Malchus Harisha the Zionist in no shape or form.I don't even like the Zionist Pepsi that has the Eida Hecsher, I drink only the US version with the Kof K hecsher.
"Almost the entire world is on the Palestinian side. Israel is accused of committing war crimes, human-rights violations, oppression and stealing land. This view is shared by the Arab nations, the UN, the EU, Obama and elite Jewish groups alike. The labeling of Anti-Semitism is long gone; instead Israel is now accused of racism, (or worse, of Nazism for denying the very existence of the Palestinian people as a Palestinian Nation). Except for the US media, Israel is viewed as an isolated ignorant and oppressing nation. If Israel continues with its current politics the world will isolate them economically. It is no longer a question if Israel will give back all the territories, but when.
Since you certified that I am a ignorant Zionist , I will be humble to ask you the following,
first, a halacha question, since as my little brain concluded that behind you logical facade you are a follower of the 3 oath doctrine so what gives you the right to go against the policy of most Goyim in America that believe in the existence of Israel and want to fortify it, they know the flotila was a ploy and a farce to smear their image, if you challenge them why are you not a misgareh beumoth? or you found a Shach in hilchas Hisgarous Beimos that Goyim that like Budwiser and live in the suburbs don't count, and we only count Goyin that drink Lattes in the cafe houses of Paris and swede? How does this work? do we go according to Rov goyim, then we have to count every cannibal in Africa, including the hutus and the tsuzus that killed a 1/2 million of their own with machetes and the billions of factory employees of the Chinese sweatshop? did the Sakmer Rebbe ever discuss it in one of the Krepel Peshetel, it is basicaly the sugya of Tishai Chanoiyas.
"There is also a third option which was promoted by the shameless adulterer, Meir Kehana,...thank G-D that he is dead.)
didn't I see an adulterer being the spokesperson on the Aroni demostration in the city, most of the roshei kehila of the anti zionist community are accused of Adultery, are they all doomed to dead ?will you apply them to the Sharia law. Wasn't the anti zionist spokesman of Rav zonenfeld Yakov Yisroel Dahan a declared Mishkav Zochornik? I would never imagine that A Ohev Yisroel of your calibar that is bleeding for the wellbeing of Klal Yisroel should wish dead to any Jew
Anon
"Bigtime Kefirah means ignoring numerous Pesikim which talk of hashem carrying out the final redemption and taking matters in the own hand. "
if it would be such a posek we would it have it on the front page of the anti zionist manifesto "Veyoel Moshe" beliving in a Gollus is not a part of the 13 principles that you can be a Nebech Apikoras, don't confuse it with Emuna in Moshiach,The Yismach Moshe cried for the redemption of Moshiach, didn't he know that it is Kefira to go against the decree, all the answers of the Vayoel carry no water.
Anon,
"Your comparison of Muslims taking over European countries is laughable; Muslims are not disputing European land."
your comrade Ayatola Khomeni never disputed the autonomy of Iran, noting of Iran land is sacred in the religion of Islam it is just a appetite of all pious Muslim to bring Millions of souls under the Shite/ Sharia law with brutal force. Noting is laughable with your muslim brothers they are ruthless vicious be-headers on their own and for sure with outsiders, Khomeni is not a Mossad invention its for real.
r yy dahan was a B.T. , kayaduah...
Dahan still had homo letters by the end of his life, why don't you rather say its Mossad fabricated?
Anon
"Israel has two options."
In your private life if you would see some changes will be coming your way in 3 decades, will you close shop today eventough you are flourishing, where exactly is your logic? And if you are the great Political Scientist and history maven, how many years did the Jews have menucha by the 2nd temple era?
Anon,
""Almost the entire world is on the Palestinian side. Israel is accused of committing war crimes, human-rights violations, oppression and stealing land. This view is shared by the Arab nations, the UN, the EU, Obama and elite Jewish groups alike. The labeling of Anti-Semitism is long gone; instead Israel is now accused of racism, (or worse, of Nazism for denying the very existence of the Palestinian people as a Palestinian Nation). Except for the US media, Israel is viewed as an isolated ignorant and oppressing nation. If Israel continues with its current politics the world will isolate them economically. It is no longer a question if Israel will give back all the territories, but when."Almost the entire world is on the Palestinian side. Israel is accused of committing war crimes, human-rights violations, oppression and stealing land. This view is shared by the Arab nations, the UN, the EU, Obama and elite Jewish groups alike. The labeling of Anti-Semitism is long gone; instead Israel is now accused of racism, (or worse, of Nazism for denying the very existence of the Palestinian people as a Palestinian Nation). Except for the US media, Israel is viewed as an isolated ignorant and oppressing nation. If Israel continues with its current politics the world will isolate them economically. It is no longer a question if Israel will give back all the territories, but when."
after all your pessimistic prophecy, is Israel's current situation worse then the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1940? you have the real Meraglim syndrome of Efes Ki Az Heom, the hashgocha elyona made the Holocaust and the same hashgoche elyona established the country of Israel ( the few Apikorsim as Ben Gurion were just a tool of the hashgoche elyone) I don"t belive in "Shtie Reshious"but face it was the Rotzan Hashem, so he will have his way on all the massive problem that you love to immerse in. Your pragmatic views are sounding Like Hertzel views for solving the problems of our nation with his fargerebrte Kup void from emuna and bitochan.
Anon
"The first is that Israel return to its 1967 borders and remain a Jewish democratic state (the two-state solution)."
you and your group are constantly bringing up the return to the 1967 borders, if that happens then you are Ok with the existence of the state of Israel? or it is the Atchata Degeula of your long awaited goal of dissolving Israel Rachmono Lizlan? it would be greatly appreciated if you play open cards, in order the world should know we are dealing with a chamas Jewish chapter located in KJ NY.
Your obsession with Satmar answers most of your points, at least in your mind. Sorry, I am not Satmar, so if you can let’s stick to the issues.
Do you really interpret Hisgarous Beimos- Rebelling Against Nations (or, for that matter, Provoking Nations) that one is not allowed to have a different opinion of the gentile nations and if one does it automatically violates this oath, or you just wanted, because of your obsession with Satmar, to make fun of Chazal (which according to Rambam's Shemona Perakim, and your style of poking fun, gives you away as a low-life)?
Meir Kahana was a so-called ideologist a leader of a movement, not an activist. In truth, however, he was an adulterer and a Nazi, no arguments about it. His movement was banned even by your respected Israeli standards which have no real affinity to plain non-zionist jews, (not to mention that he was Rodef by Halacha standards, if you believe it counts to a Zionist who are usually above Halacha and Jewish interest), no regrets for his death!
If you would have learned Veyoel Moshe, which such an highly educated person like you would have naturally been tempted to learn before disagreeing, you would have at least understood why you’re being ignored when you show a vague knowledge of this Sefer.
According to your rational, realistically exploring the limited options that Israel has in order to solve their burning problem of 3.5 million+ Palestinian enemies is called “apocalyptic thinking”, what does it make of someone who is day-dreaming that Europe will one day be completely taken over by Arabs?
If you really don’t believe in Shtie Reshious then face it, the Holocaust was the Rotzan Hashem, which Chazal clearly say that defying The Three Oaths will result in severe and cruel punishments rch”l. The few devils like Hitler, Eichmann, and others, were just a tool of Hashgoche Elyone, just like Nevichdnetzer was the tool to destroy the first temple. (No surprise if, and because of your obsession with Satmar, you will eventually deny the holocaust, if it wont be anymore beneficial to Zionism)
You’re nebach following the doctrine of the neo-Jewish, Zionist thinkers of Rav Herzl, Rav Kook and Dovid Ben-Gurion (since he is the zionist Moshiach Ben Dovid, I should really call him Rav as well) of taking matters in our own hands instead of waiting for a divine redemption. Jews in Israel are secure as long as the US continues to support Israel, haven forbid if American opinion changes, which can naturally happen any time,of the ramifications to Jews. I do believe that Israel which is a false Geula, will be completely dissolved before the divine redemption with Moshiach. I am therefore Mispallel for the immediate and complete demise of Israel, thru Hashem himself without sheluchim who may do harm to Jews rch”l.
Lastly, ch”v! I do not compare you to the typical and cruel Zionist who looks up on Zionist beasts like Jabotinsky, Ben-Gurion and other cold-blooded Zionist leaders who have no regard for Jews as human beings, and who actively participated or collaborated with the Nazis, you are just another innocent victim who fell pray to the neo-Jewish Zionist (loosing) ideology. Add your obsession with Satmar, hence your style of Zionist-ignorance.
Good Day!
Anon,
it seems that your weak answer with your satmar affiliation cut off was a major move in the Natronoa group PR departmant , especialy in the light of the late KJ struggles in front of the Media and court systems where the Chilul Hashem is heartbreaking for every Jew that bleeds for Kvoid Hashem. It is a smart move for the short term from your PR division at the right time. Eventough nobody will believe you that their is any interest for the anti Zionist manifesto Veyoel Moshe outside the fringe of Satmar Chasidim.
Anon
"Do you really interpret Hisgarous Beimos- Rebelling Against Nations (or, for that matter, Provoking Nations) that one is not allowed to have a different opinion of the gentile nations and if one does it automatically violates this oath, or you just wanted, because of your obsession with Satmar, to make fun of Chazal (which according to Rambam's Shemona Perakim, and your style of poking fun, gives you away as a low-life)?"
according to many Legitimate(not paid off by the Mossad) meforshai Hamedrash in Shir Hashirim (Yefa Koil,and Reb chaim Palazhi in Nishmas Kol Chai,)the issur of Loi Yimredi Beumoth, starts by adhering to the laws of the local governments as avoiding the tax man, and all their demands. Meaning that it is not a specific mideastern problem, it is acting like sheep where ever the Jew is residing. So lets first take care on our sins on that matter on a local level, which I never saw any emphasis on that issue. Maybe we Can start giving a new explanation on the great Holocaust question of Why? That all the evil happened because the Jew in pre war Europe was relying for his lively hood to smuggle the tax system? I don't claim to be a Yodea daas elyon as the arrogant claim of the Veyoel Moshe, but I believe this reason is more sensible.
Just to clarify, that ridiculing a Megaleh Ponim Betorrah sheloi Khalocha which all gedolie yisroel of our generation were convinced that the whole Veyoel Moshe philosophy is violating ,is not poking fun of chazal,Its the opposite, its a mitzva clarify the dvar hashem that was paskened by the Posek Hador The Avnei Nezer that the 3 oaths does not matter in our current situation.
Anon,
"In truth, however, he was an adulterer and a Nazi, no arguments about it."
So the case is closed on that one?or you give one more chance,their is a posuk in the torah Loi Sechaye Kol Neshoma, and so are many mitzvas in the torah that are harsh.If someone believes that he has a solution for the safety of Klal Yisroel, but in a very harsh fashion, eventough that the concept of transfer was applied in many countries as Indo/Pak transfers in the 50's. I would not call him a Nazi.Its ironic that in the Veyoel Moshe he has another sin for the state of Israel that they didn't demolish the Churches in the Old city,since its a possuk mefurash that we have to gave get rid of it as soon as we occupy the country. So imagine the outcry of a billion catholics if these Cathedrals will be demolished, Is he more aggressive that Kahane Hashem Yinokem Dome ?
"f you would have learned Veyoel Moshe, which such an highly educated person like you would have naturally been tempted to learn before disagreeing, you would have at least understood why you’re being ignored when you show a vague knowledge of this Sefer."
please don't create the sefer as if it is the deepest of the deep, it's shallow and boring, I am not blaming him, he never learned in good yeshivas as in the Lita where logic was king (as Reb Aron Kotler said on of his twisted torahs), His father did not let him even go to Pressburgh Yeshiva to keep him away from bad influences(according to the Badchen Biographer), so he wrote it to the best of his capabilities, And I would appreciate if a regular discussion would start on the Sefer.
Anon,
"haven forbid if American opinion changes, which can naturally happen any time,of the ramifications to Jews."
you are so right that we need chasdie hashem in Israel and in the great USA that the Haloche Beyodea ShEisav Sonai LeYakov that was unfortunately on our neck for 4000 years, should not flare up in out times again.Germany in 1933 looked as great for the Jews in the USA and who imagined the disaster.
You make me laugh and cry. I laugh because you made a false assumption that I learned in, or I am, Satmar. You make me cry, that it seems that you mingle in Chariedi circles, and you’re not ashamed to show your deep hatred towards the Goen Hador, the Satmar Ruv Z”l. What a Shame!
I won’t try to prove you about the greatness of the holy Satmar Rebbe Z’l, and how privileged we are to learn about his great figure and about other distinguished Gedolie Yisroel Z’l Klal Yisroel was blessed with. I do have, however, one observation. With all their uniqueness, I have never, ever, heard from an older Satmar Talmid, someone who has personally heard torah on any occasion from the holy mouth of the Satmar Ruv Z”l, that they should vilify other revered Gedolim, such as R’Aron, R’Moshe, the Steipler, Rav Shach, and others Z”l, who maintained different views than Satmar Ruv. You will never find in their literature the slightest ridicule against other revered Gedolim, Litvish or Chasidish, who lived during the lifetime of Satmar Ruv and who maintained other views. All they will tell you is that with all due respect to other Gedolie Yisroel their Rebbe, the Satmar Ruv, was the Holiest person on earth, a unique figure from a higher caliber, a person who incorporated an unimaginable greatness in all areas of Yiddihkiet, and thus follow his teachings. They are not the slightest offended by views or opinions of other Gedolie Yisroel. In Fact, it is the Satmar Ruv himself who was maspid R’Aron Kotler, and his follower, the Beirach Moshe, was maspid R’Moshe Feinstein Z”l . What a sharp contrast to your low-life comments!
There is a saying “A wise man understands before he disagrees”. Apparently, you have concluded, due to your obsession with Satmar, and now your open hatred towards the holy Satmar Ruv Z’l, that you can dismiss the Vayoel Moshe entirely. Hence your brilliant questions of bar-mitzvah age children. Is that the best you can do?
Pity on you!
The only other excuse there can be is that you are paid by Satmar to write your anti-Semitic diatribes. By the way, we do not have to speak to some talmid to hear their unique brand of anti-Semitism; one only has to listen to the private tapes of the holy Rebbe himself to realize where their hatred originated from. Just listening to him talk about Rav Aharon Kotler and others, makes one want to vomit. Please don’t take up a cause that you know nothing about.
I think it's clear you have nothing to answer. I would love to debate you regarding the merits of the VM’s arguments.
Anon
"deep hatred towards the Goen Hador, the Satmar Ruv Z”l. What a Shame!"
In my circles the concept of hatred was as trief as pork. But I was brought up not to get influenced by the masses and to take every thing with a grain of salt, if 10,000 meal mart consumers will claim that someone is Goan Hador then you realy got to check it out. So far non of his works have proven that he is more talmud chochem then his Hungarian contemporaries most of them wrote more and better . The few teshuvahs and his magnum opus are only proving that he was a mediocre talmud chochom, and since I am proud to be from Charide Circles I know that even on this teshuvahs he had a lot of outside help. It Seems like that you never ever looked in seforim as a Dovev Maishorim, Igrois Moshe or Har Tzvi
Anon,
Isn't satmar great? the holiest Rebbe and the Eidelster Kehila,
If you would be a Charidie and know some Unterlander Yiddish I would recommend you to get some satmar rovs tapes in his chambers where he chats with the inner sanctum on all gedolie yisroel. I agree that he was politically shrewd and in public he gave hespiedim and did the formal visits. Its a little strange for me that a non charidie like you should care for unique Kedusha,
Anon,
"am therefore Mispallel for the immediate and complete demise of Israel, thru Hashem himself without sheluchim who may do harm to Jews rch”l."
Me in your place would rather channel my tefiloth to win the 200, million lotto and spent it on kiruv rechokim in the metro area, and not tell hashem how to handle the majority of klal yisroel in the Mideast
Ano,
"Jews in Israel are secure as long as the US continues to support Israel, haven forbid if American opinion changes,"
let me give you a poll update, Rasmuusem(the last time I checked it was not a Mossad or Aipic paid entity)polled the american public on the flotilla episode.
49% say Palestinians are to blame for the incident
19% say Israel to Blame ( I guess not all respodents on this one were gentiles since all KJ residents are on the same page they are all mesmerized of the unique Goan Hador , unless they were too busy to establish cemeteries and cesspools))
so far it seems we are Ok with the numbers, bchasdie hashem all the work of the islamist and their sympathizers MiZera Yisroel hadn't cracked the common sense of Main Street USA
David,
they always skirt the debating the VM manifesto of the unique Goan Hador, why????
on the other hand they scream of the top of their lounges that nobody refuted the VM,
what they don't chap is simple, no Godal believed that a midrash in Shir Hasirim has to be answered to the tune of even a broken window or ostracized and ridiculed in their funded media
Dear Natronoa
"A shifting economic climate has also pushed many Britons to immigrate to Israel. Rafi Nassi, director of the Jewish Agency in the UK, has seen the same strong growth, citing a 30% increase in aliya from the UK this past year. Besides Israel’s growing economy, Nassi also points to Israel’s tax reform as another economic incentive motivating British Jews to make aliya.
Immigrants don’t have to pay taxes in Israel for 10 years after aliya, and unlike in the US, UK citizens don’t have to pay British taxes if they don’t have a residence in Britain, Nassi said."
JP (yesterday)
if I remember well, the Veyoel Moshe happily quotes a Meil Tzedoka that Aliya to eretz yisroel is not adviced if you will only survive on Money from the diaspora, It seems that the unexpected arrived, Jews are making aliya for financial reason they feel that they are more secure in Israel then in the EU or USA. So can we change our focus now, or all the Meil Tzedoka is a sideshow for the Ideology
Dear Natronoa Rep.
"Suit challenges Orange County, Kiryas Joel settlement"
headline in todays Record of Upsate NY,
can we please work out some plan of transfering all the chasidim back to Brooklyn we have no right to provoke all the Rednecks of Orange County, we have no rights for that land Even Rav Kook would admit to it.
Dear Natronoa Rep.
I read today in the media that Abbas told Obama that he wants that gaza blockade should continue in order to weaken chamas.,So we are at a serious Shala in Hichoth Hisgares Beumoth,
whom should the jew listen to? the Fata ? or Hamas?
does Natronoa have a Rabbi on board that can pasken this major Shailohs? or you know too that its not halachic anyway? Its just a ploy to get across the VM views to certain segments.
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