Burt Siegel now puts on Tefillin while davening with a minyan every day and learns Torah with a young chavrusah
It was only 5 weeks ago that we discussed Rick Jacob's attending the Kinus HaShluchim. We discussed what good it would do, and whether or not it would empower Reform Jews now that they are given credibility by Chabad's leadership. Whether Reform was a dying breed and Chabad's overtures to its President would only bring them closer to authentic Yiddishkeit. While the jury is still out on the Jacobs case the jury may not have such a hard time when it comes to Siegel. Simcha Bunim Siegel, that is! They may see quite clearly that Rabbi Krasnjanski's kiruv has paid dividends. That המאור שבו מחזירו למוטב, no matter how many years he studied at HUC, or how long he's preached at some Liberal Temple. And that he may just be mekarev his whole congregation as a result of the learning and davening that he does at Rabbi K's Chabad House/Kolel!.
45 comments:
מה ענין שמיטה אצל הר סיני, ווי קומט א יון אין סוכה? א מענטש קומט אריין איז מין עם מקרב, יהיה מי שיהיה. כידוע אצל הבריסקר רב ביקשו מכל מראין בישין ליכנס כשהיו צריכים מנין. ואמר שמי שמוכן להתפלל אינו כופר.
This shliach may be trying to earn himself some pr brownie points, which is fine for him and just as often detrimental to the kiruv /person being mkarved. Any one can come to any shul to put on tfilin, learn and even get an aliyah... It's no comparison to giving a rosha kovod in public.
Not a Harry
if Brisker Ruv did it then its fine? maybe he did against the shulchan orech(maybe he found some Rambam) or against the tielung Mesorah??
Not a Harry
"This shliach may be trying to earn himself some pr brownie points"
Mefarsimin Oisai Mitzva, is a Rashba and quoted in shulchan Orech.. I dont know the daas of Brisker ruv about it, but its a shulchan orech
not a Harry
" and just as often detrimental to the kiruv /person being mkarved"
I see that you will be mekatreg on everything that walks and breathes in chabad,
this Rabbi sat down with a Journalist to discuss his situation, knowing that full well it will be publicized, Reform rabbis don"t get points by playing dumb, as our tzadikim like to play the game,(I admit they have their problems). So what your problem exactly?
That some youngster in BP,CH,KJ,Willi, will see that life out there is not gan eden, and a Reform rabbi, made a uturn to torah true Yiddishkiet....
leaving the emotions and "aiftu" out .what is the halacha??
You need to be in a major state of Mochin DeKatanus to insist on kicking out Reform Rabbis from klal yisroel in 2013. Are these Reform Rabbis actually "reforiming" anything? No. Minhag avoseichem beyadechim, etc. The Chasam Sofer stuff was great when folks were trying to change Judaism. In 2013 Judaism is already changed. The worst you can do is be oiver on the issur chamor of ahavas chinam and be mevarer some nitzozos. Its sickening how if someone grew up without wearing the crown of tefillin or having the joy of shabbos, some of you guys would deny them that opportunity because they never put on tefillin or kept shabbos. I hope no one applies the same standards to you guys re Lashon Harah, Shifiches Damim, Giloy Arayos, the three minor sins of Jewish Orthodoxy.
R Moshe was supposedly matir giving an aliyah to anyone off the street.
"it would empower Reform Jews now that they are given credibility by Chabad's leadership"
The above is not an accurate statement. Rick Jacobs was not invited as a representative of reform or in any way that gives reform credibility. He was invited as an individual Jew who happens to be the head of reform and therefore has a lot of influence.
Anyone who has opened a Rambam knows that any reform rabbi today has the status of a Tinok Shenishba. Only the founders of the Reform movement merit the titles of Rasha etc.
Have any of the commenters on this blog ever met a reform, reconstructionist, or conservative rabbi. I would imagine that living in Brooklyn/Lakewood type communities you would probably have not. Asking one to put on Tefillin or do do any type of Mitzvah would be alot more effective than calling them Reshaim.
Anonymous Not a Harry said...
R Moshe was supposedly matir giving an aliyah to anyone off the street.
That's kind of true-- unless you know who that person is--and he no longer has a chezkas kashrus or a din of a tinok sheneshba.
Perhaps you should read the responsa written on the subject before misquoting?
"Anyone who has opened a Rambam knows that any reform rabbi today has the status of a Tinok Shenishba. Only the founders of the Reform movement merit the titles of Rasha etc."
Many shu"t have been written on this general subject. Could you cite any that state what you claim?
It's ridiculous to say that Rick was invited as a private person as a means of kiruv.
Real kiruv is what this guy Siegel is getting.
This reform rabbi went to the chabad shul as a seeker. Strange for me to be defending chabad here, but this rabbi did a superb job here.
this all discussion about including a Jew to Minyan, even a non frum is based on achronim after the shulchan Orech,
Maran states in Shulchan Orech, that you can include a Avaryan...
So whats all this talk, Brisk yes brisk no.. its shulchan orech am oretz...
"this all discussion about including a Jew to Minyan, even a non frum is based on achronim after the shulchan Orech,
Maran states in Shulchan Orech, that you can include a Avaryan...
So whats all this talk, Brisk yes brisk no.. its shulchan orech am oretz..."
The poskim differentiate between giving a stam kibbud versus giving an aliyah to certain individuals.
Sorry for going off topic, but lots of respect to young Silcove for being able to give over serious Torah to someone like this
Anon
"The poskim differentiate between giving a stam kibbud versus giving an aliyah to certain individuals."
can you explain yourself better please?
the Mechaber writes that a Avaryen can be part of the Minyan...so you are saying a Aliya is different?
Since when do we learn a klal from a prat ?
The gentleman in question looks old and I need not add more to that.But if you think this method works , how about giving these gents fette aliyoth in the Rebbe's minyan in 770(perhaps on the Yamiom Noriam or on the Shababth before Yud Shevat etc) ? The extra kedusha should make sure the job is done right !
Lets be honest for just one moment HORAV Rick Jacobs was "honored" because this act opened up new fund raising opportunities for Chabad International.
Schneur:
Rick Jacobs was not honored, He was invited. The chiddush is not that he was invited, rather that he attended. The emphasis is that people from reform could and should go to Chabad because they can benefit - even the head of reform went to Chabad.
Contrast this with YCT inviting reform clergy to sit on the same stage and address the audience etc. There the emphasis was on the invitation and all that it implies...
Did you know that the Rebbe addresses letters to reform and conservative clergy with the title rabbi? i.e. the person is a reform rabbi or a conservative rabbi - these are titles which are true. They of course are not orthodox rabbis...
Schneur
"Lets be honest for just one moment HORAV Rick Jacobs was "honored" because this act opened up new fund raising opportunities for Chabad International."
your critic on the Rick Jacobs invitation, is entering a new phase , from trying to come up with rational arguments, as Hungarian Tielung to the Rebbe Reshabs anti Zionism, all have been used, now we are turning, to mystical mud slinging. You know for sure what was in the minds of the Kinus organizers, and it was definitely for the bad intention of fund raising.. or you have some insider (NSA style) that informed you
schneur
"The gentleman in question looks old and I need not add more to that"
So the problem with Jacobs was that he was young,
by which age is the turning point, for inviting a Reform Rabbi, and when is it prohibited?
Aussie said...
lots of respect to young Silcove for being able to give over serious Torah to someone like this
>>
Guess what. Young Silcove (for reasons best known to his parents) received his main Torah education in Melbourne's Charedi/Chassidish/Satmar etc School known as Adass Yisroel.
And while I appreciate and respect Scheur's comments, he does forget one thing - dehaynu - that not only are today's reform Jews tinokos shenishbu, but so are the vast majority of Chabad yungeleit - in many inyonei Yahadus and hashkafa.
What do these young men (and even "shlichim") know about the world war 3 battles that the rebbe led against reform and conservatives with his campaigns for Giyur Kehalacha and Mihu Yehudi.
If you try and explain this to them many/most will tell you that you are confusing rebbes - Lubavitch with Satmar.
Former Autralian
"What do these young men (and even "shlichim") know about the world war 3 battles that the rebbe led against reform and conservatives with his campaigns for Giyur Kehalacha and Mihu Yehudi.
If you try and explain this to them many/most will tell you that you are confusing rebbes - Lubavitch with Satmar."
So Chabad have 2 problems,lacking Gemora knowledge, only in Satmar they produce real talmidie chachomim, as we see that lately 1000's of youngsters are leaving the Yeshivas of Brisk and Ponevezh to learn in Satmar Queens and KJ....
It's actually the graduates of uta of kj and Queens filling mostly brisk, not ponoviz though.
Former Australian
you think the Rebbe would have a problem with a Jew walking in to a chabad event or a chabad shul.
The Rebbe and his FIL hated labels and educated chasidim to see only the Chelek Elokai Mimaal..
All has noting to do with the Israeli government creating fiction Jews.
It is sheer Chabad bashing for the sake of bashing,
I seems from your poor Judgement that you Learn a sugya the Hiemishe Ungarisha derech Halimud..
Not a Harry
Correct,majority is Queens Aleksander Bp, not KJ
Is this guy a leading reform rabbi because he fell into chabads net or because he has a large consequential congregation?
KJ over aged bachelor's come straight to bmg, tzim fleish gesheft.
Whats chabad
"Is this guy a leading reform rabbi because he fell into chabads net or because he has a large consequential congregation? "
do the legwork and verify his Minyan and report to the circus crowd.
What will happen if you see 5 minyonim of 10 women, 10 lesbians,10 gay men 10 straight and 10 Goyim who were converted yesterday, will you be satisfied...
Basically what the poster is saying in this post is that the ends justify the means.
this is nothing new in Chabad and r' shach was screaming about it for years,
Hey fellows, take a look at the new JEWISH WEEK and a feature about the Reform Movements convention(5,000 shluchim there too probably bigger than the convention in CH , not bad for a movememtn that is dead) and its leader rav Rick Jacobs. It does not appear that they have thrown in the towel as my critics here claim, and that the massive shluchim convention convinced them to institute gittin or do away with patrilineal descent. (By the way what was all the talk from the Rebbe that Mihu yehudi was meakev the geulah and who are the biggest purveyors of shelo kehalalcha you guessed it the Reform movement)Also there are some choice words about what the Reform movement thinks about Chabad Dec 20 (a hip hood like CH must carry the JW)Page 33 a quote from Rav Jacobs " I believe with the very fiber of my being that young Jews are hungry, BUT NOT FOR A JUDAISM FROZEN IN A DISTANT TIMES NOT MATTER HOW LOVING AND WARM THE PURVEYORS _INCLUDING CHABAD IN PARTICULAR Mightbe ".
Nu lomir heren vie die Chachmei Chabad vargleichen die meimra fun rav Jacobs with their position that he gave up and Reform is dead. Reform is far from dead and if orthodox Jews do not take meaningful actions to distance themselves from this group, we(our children and their children) may all have a date with destiny Hashem yerachem Wahy Chabad doesn't get is that Reform "meynt zey eych et" its a 2 way street.
Congratulations. Your guys explained to Rabbi Rick Jacobs how to talk with the Orthodox. And now he has turned around and converted Neshama Carlebach, daughter of former shaliach R' Shlomo Carlebach, to Reform.
http://www.jta.org/2013/12/18/life-religion/neshama-carlebach-announces-shes-now-a-reform-jew
You win some, you lose some?
To be fair, I'm sure it was an unintended consequence on Rick Jacobs' part. As for giving aliyoth, when I lived in Park Slope, davening at Rabbi Hecht's shul, one of the congregants was the daughter of the then-head of JTSA. She went because she preferred annual leining to triennial. When her father came to visit, despite being a heresiarch that RMF's teshuvot would prohibit from getting a aliyan in an Orthodox shul, he was called up as Horav Yitzchak ben whatever. Becuase he was a fellow Jew, and a congregant's father, whatever his institutional affiliation.
Schneur, why are you creating a straw man and then taring it down? What does your comment have anything to do with what was discussed here? Is that how "kiruv" works? A person goes to one event and they change their whole life? Did you expect him tell the crowd to close up shop and head over to Chabad?
Do you realize that it is the Shluchim who are at the forefront. of dealing with Mihu Yehudi? Every day Shluchim have to tell people that they are not Jewish even though they had a bar Mitzvah etc.
"the Mechaber writes that a Avaryen can be part of the Minyan...so you are saying a Aliya is different?"
See the relevant shu"t...that hold that an aliya is different and the position of the individual (if the person has a position of being called a rabbi).
Cheski,
My sources tell me that many shluchim do not work exactly the way you describe including a leading Chabad rav in EY.
Lets stop propaganda and talk reality - facts on the ground. Talking to rabbonim in many sun belt communities I also gather that some shluchim are involved in solving the Mihu yehudi problem in their own manner.
Schneur
"Talking to rabbonim in many sun belt communities I also gather that some shluchim are involved in solving the Mihu yehudi problem in their own manner."
are their shluchim in the USA that do Gierus?
Fact Checker.
Ask around. many do not, some do, still others do but deny it. others have "other rabbis" do the "dirty work" for them after all they.
Think is it possible to run a massive world wide outreach enter without conversions ?
Everyone does conversions : The kabbalah center does them , non pulpit orthodox rabbis do them Reform rabbis do them but many are mehader and marry Jews and non jews without conversions and Chabad does them but mostly off the record.
In Israel a chief chabad rabbi has recently been accused of converting rich Russian Jews which makes sense these people then donate to the local Chabad representative.
Schneur
The Lubavicher Rebbe was very against that shluchim should get involved in Gairus,In NY, many Gairus were done by Rav Bomzer
Schneur, please enlighten us with the facts on the ground. How do "many" shluchim including a leading Chabad rav in EY operate? Do they count reform converts for a minyan? Do they give them Bar Mitzvahs? Do they officiate at their weddings?
Are you saying there are Shluchim who quietly do thier own geirus? Don't believe everything you hear.
Schneur
" but many are mehader and marry Jews and non jews without conversions and Chabad does them but mostly off the record"
Where?
When?
Can you please give some facts
In Melb most people were shocked some years ago when a quite prominent shliach ben shliach was megayer a shikse who wanted to marry one of Aust richest Jews (a mechalel shabbos of course).
Men zogt that this shliach/rabbi got a new house as a reward.
Probably true as he couldn't afford a car on his own and a new house just popped up..
:emaaseh that wife diassapeard after a few kids and oisher has wife # 3 (or maybe 4). This one I think was Jewish.
Why I am pointing this out is to show that these Chabad geirus affairs happen not only in the sunbelt - but in big Kehilos like Melbourne and not only by some ignorant newcomer shliach but even someone shpitz chabad
Thank you for clarifying. Because one rabbi in Australia did it (or a rabbi in the sunbelt) it must the approach of the entire Chabad movement and next thing you know it will be impossible to tell them from Reform!
Rabbi Silcove did not get his main education from Adass Yisroel. He did attend there for 6 years in primary school from age 9 to 16, but his main education was in Lubavitch: Lubavitch Yeshiva on Crown Street in Crown Heights,Yeshiva Gedola, Melbourne, Australia, Detroit Yeshiva, Ohlei Torah in NY, Chabad Yeshiva in Miami, and he received his smicha from Machon Chaim in Melbourne, Australia.
Rabbi Silcove did not get his main education from Adass Yisroel. He did attend there for 6 years in primary school from age 9 to 16, but his main education was in Lubavitch: Lubavitch Yeshiva on Crown Street in Crown Heights,Yeshiva Gedola, Melbourne, Australia, Detroit Yeshiva, Ohlei Torah in NY, Chabad Yeshiva in Miami, and he received his smicha from Machon Chaim in Melbourne, Australia.
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