Thursday, July 11, 2013

Have you been following the back-and-forth in the 5TJT?




















Barry responds
Barry's Response part II
Rabbi Ginzberg responds
The beginning of it all?


This is an opportunity that can't be squandered. There is this whole demographic out there that can be swayed either to Chassidus, or to Shachniks like Rabbi Ginzberg, who is importing Israeli Haredism and trying to tow in the simple souls out there. [ I'm not quite sure how a CC talmid becomes a Bene Beraq מחבל, but I guess it happens. And this isn't meant to be a personal attack on the good Rabbi, that's not what we do here...] Barry's encounters Chabad seem to be everlasting, the words of a Tzaddik have that affect. As do shluchim like the late Reb Shlomo Zalman Hecht, who exude a positive message. This is a watershed moment when these people are reacting and rejecting the demagoguery forced upon them. We have to be there for them, giving them the healthy alternative. Am alternative steeped in Torah and tradition yet imbued with Ahavas Yisroel that will keep the masses from totally rejecting the traditions their ancestors fought so hard to keep. Rabbi Ginzberg may be trying to be true to his Rebbi's teachings, but doing it at the expense of Torah leaders dear to thousands upon thousand of Jews is not the way to do it. כאן המקום להזכיר several important points, ויה"ר  that in this זכות may we be זוכה to בנין ביהמ"ק השלישי במהרה בימינו ממש.

You might notice how the פשוט'ע Yiddishe sentiments of חיבת הארץ and רחמנות  etc. are being scorned upon by the thought police. You, you simple gornisht, you with the blue shirt and knitted Yarmulke, you can't have an opinion. We tell you how to think and when to think it. We're the ones who have the mesorah and we tell you what goes. But notice the haredi elite are exporting politics, masked as existential threats to yiddishkeit, to the unassuming. זאג נישט פאר קיינעם, but we all know that the way it is now in EY is a new reality. This was NOT the way it was meant to be. Yes, Lapid's plan ( and the yold Lipman) is wrong and the way to do it is not to force it on the people, but we're fighting a battle that most of us don't believe in. We're officially standing up for a way of life that 95% of us don't follow.  And besides, who brought them into the whole mess, by trying to get yeshivos fully funded, in exchange for not pushing the implementation of mihu yehudi? Once again we're witnessing a throwback to the times of the הייליקע Baal Shem Tov when the scholarly elite was out of touch with the masses and scorned them. We see במוחש how the chassidish vs. misnagdish approach is still a very big factor in day-to-day life. I just don't understand why everything to far-entfer the B'nei Brak approach is a whole pilpul, בבחינת מגדלים הפורחים באויר, and they can't give simple answers to simple questions?!

69 comments:

Anonymous said...

The בעש"ט made a revolution.The first two doirois of manhigim were based on meritocracy not hereditory.It overturned the rabonishe and family lineage world.Now both the chasidishe world and rabonishe and yeshivish world are basically hereditory, which can lead to self interest.
Are we going back to square one?

BP1956 said...

So what is the Chabad position on the proposed draft law?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the Chabad position is that the law is not good.

a friend said...

Heshy,
Do yourself a favour.
Take a deep breath and rewrite the post.
Can't make head or tails of the story.
You write very passionately not realizing that most people are not obsessing 24/7 about Chasidem/Menagdem/Chabad.
Make your points clear.
Thx
A friend

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

that's what I need now, more work.

a friend said...

Sorry, but really the post is clear as mud

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

vos farshteit ihr nist?

Naftoolche said...

The only part I found confusing were the links to the 5TJT articles. Some were redundant and it seems like R' Ginzberg hasn't (yet?) responded to Barry's most recent article, but perhaps I missed it.

As far as Hirshel's piece- it's spot on, and beautiful. As another commenter mentioned, it seems like we're back to square one. But the irony is that the ones who are considered to be the "most" chasidish (hungarians), seem to be the furthest removed from the Baal Shem.

Yochanan said...

Hirschel,

Great post. He who poses as one that doesnt understand, in essence doesn't want to understand.

Barry Jacobson wrote again in this weeks issue, in my opinion, an amazing piece which seems to be the end of it all.

You might want to post that as well. Titled, "Gentle Words."

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't see it on the web edition, Yochanon

a friend said...

Yochanan,
Thanks, but no thanks for the uncalled for insinuation,k?
I, probably unlike you are not connected to social services and don't have enough time on my hands,
Heshy,
I realize there is a back and forth over the classic black hat yeshiva party line of R'Ginzberg and Mr Jacobsons more moderate worldview.
I can't really checkout all the links in the middle of work, unlike the lucky ones who "work" for uncle sam.
So, in future a little hakdumeh, before you get a back and forth, with mechablim, etc, i and i guess many people have only a vague idea about what you mean.
Yishar kochachem fin foraus

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no need to degrade those that have more time on their hands than you, a friend.

I do what I can here, I'll see what I can do as far as adding a few clarifiers to the post

dovy in j said...

is your point that the besh"t mehalech is to support zionism and endless pointless wars as a conduit towards ahavas chinam for people with bluie shirts and the "shachnik" way is to oppose wars and blue shirts and this is sinas chinam (and they don't even really believe what they say of course, they really deep in their hearts want to kill arabs too)? that's what it sounds like. is that the standard thinking in chabad?

snagville said...

I am so proud (sarcasm dripping)of Larry and his son Yochanan that they could pretend to be "regular" while they are able to run a paper and a PR firm for their Chassidus. I don't know about poorly written but this piece is written with such hatred dripping I was expecting to see an illustration from the Der Strurmer as the attachment. Tzig, I have had a long relationship with you but this post did it. You have always been so respectful I was actually expecting to see that this was a guest post. But no such luck. I am out of here. Your blog has passed the point of no return. Last one out shut the lights.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

talk about overreacting... sheesh!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what can I say? I never saw that coming. Sorry to see you go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out?

Unknown said...

tzig
What chutzpah to say that chabad position is that the law is no good? Didn't the rebbe say that you have to follow the sorei hatzovo? and they say it is good YECHI!

Anonymous said...

Hesh,

I too don't understand what you are saying (although I "shachnik" is a new one to me).

What is your point?

Can you say so in one or two sentences?

What does the בעש''ט have to do with the elections?

Another Friedn

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no, Unknown, that was your guy

Snag said...

Hirshel, do us all a favor and get yourself a new pair of glasses. It seems that your Lubavitcher spectacles show you a distorted view of things.

P.S. The good thing here is that Barry was forced to apologize for his words against the great and holy Rav Schach ztvk"l. A warning to others who would think of also displaying such chutzpah and being mevazeh such a great gadol!

Anonymous said...

Hershel this piece is garbage. Bnei Brak are the anti-mechablim and you know it too , and its safe to say what RALS is doing against the pressure from Yerushalayim is a much better comparison to the heileke Besht. RALS has the feelings of the people on his heart. Chabad in Israel is once again left standing like a kid in a schoolyard fight being chonef anyone who looks at them

צורה קודם לכל said...

"shachnick" your a real baal derech eretz, or rather a mendelist.

Anonymous said...

Tzig cant handle that people should know that Maran was a sweet old Jew, not the hateful bitter man the Chabad propaganda specialists want you to believe

Rockaway Jew said...

I dont know who this Ginzburgh guy is, but 1 thing is for sure.
or he is lying or Rav shach and Rav soloviechig were lying.
Did Rav shach follow the path of the Chofetz Chaim, by splitting Klal Yisroel in to the biggest Schism after the shoah.
Did the CC control a terror brigade, to terrorize all gedolim in the Lita, Did he try to make Bien odom Lechchaviro a focal point in Yiddishkiet, that was his name and motto, But Rav Shach was adament to rodeph anyone that was trying to bring it up as a issue, You can see it now in all the Hapeles kuntriesim, they are all the kitchemn boys they know the Kavona Elyona.
The same with RJBS, he portrays into a Skverer Rebbe that followed his father on every move, its the opposite what he stood for
Its all sheer lies and mnonsense, Ginzburgh is a amuterish ben torah, tooting his horn

Zvihersh said...

Rockaway jew
You are surely not from Rockaway or the Five Towns.
You sound like you are from Williamsburg

Rockaway Jew said...

Zviresh
Are you on the dole of the NSA?

zevi said...

. [ I'm not quite sure how a CC talmid becomes a Bene Beraq מחבל,

I"m not sure how a spinka and chasan sofer talmid becomes a Tomim?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer said...

Snag,

Barry was not "forced" to apologize. He, himself, sincerely regretted his choice of words and recanted on his own volition.

See, BTW,
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2013/07/emes-ve-emunah-barry-jacobson-vs-rabbi.html

BTW,for those following these things, Rabbi Sholom Gold's rebbitzen is from a Lubavitch family in Toronto, Rubinoff.

S B Sorotzkin said...

Zevi
"I"m not sure how a spinka and chasan sofer talmid becomes a Tomim?"
If Hirshel learned in Tomchai Temimim, then he is a Tamim, But if someone learned in CC then his is not inducted in the BB terror squad
I think

Yanover said...

I dont understand when roshei yeshiva became considered gdoilai yisruel. Is it because we have no real poskim anymore? Moron shach wasnt a posek, and no one will learn his "Tayrehs" in 100 years. Likkutei Sichos however will.

chaim said...

"Moron shach wasnt a posek, and no one will learn his "Tayrehs" in 100 years. Likkutei Sichos however will."

How do you know what"ll be in a hundred years?
Nvia nitneh leshoitim

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but I'm not a Rosh Yeshiva in CC now, unlike Rabbi G

Yanover said...

Chaim,

because no one learns his stuff already!

chaim said...

"because no one learns his stuff already!"

Yanover, I take it you are a Lubavitcher.So please don't cause busha to Lubavitch by saying illogical things.
In Lubavitch they never learned Avi Ezri and in other yeshivas they do.

But, maybe in the nine days just before tisha beav, it's time to turn down hate?

Navardoker said...

Chaim
"In Lubavitch they never learned Avi Ezri and in other yeshivas they do."
Avi Ezr is not learned in Brisk too, and not in Viznitz neither,
It was never quoted in seforim before the Yated movement came to power, his seforim are good and he is as good as all roshie yeshivas after the war, noting unique at all. The only rosh yeshiva that is quoted and gevaldig, is Reb Shmuel
Razovsky, and he is quoted by Magigdai shiur all around the world even in Chabad yeshivas, but it was not shoved down nobodies throat

Anonymous said...

novardok
did u learn in brisk. or viznitz?
they dont learn likutei dichos there
I live in bp and I dont see likutei dichos seforim anywhere besides chabad on 16 ave



chaim

Yanover said...

I am not lubavitch. Ive learnt in Litvishe and poilishe yeshivos. Ive never seen his sforim being learnt nor is he ever brought down in mekoros in sforim other than "shemati paam achas" and meisos.

I agree. turn down the hate. But what is so special about the 9 days? you think we can fool G-d by acting differently for 9 days than the rest of the year?

Satmarer Shamash said...

Anon
"I live in bp and I dont see likutei dichos seforim anywhere besides chabad on 16 ave"
and you saw Avi Ezri in all Satmarer shuls and in all Gerer Shtiblech

Anonymous said...

Yanove
U say u learned in "litvishe and poilishe yeshivas"
my friend. "Poilishe" yeshivas only exist in lubavitch terminology
no heimishe non lubavitcher. would even know what u r talking about, actually



chaim

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

sorry to bust your bubble, Chaim, but I can vouch for Yanover, and when he says Poylishe he means from the Poylishe branch of Chassidus, i.e. Ger, Alexander, Amshinov, etc.

Big genius, that you are

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
unless u actually know Yanover personally, I would be very surprised, since there is nobody that calls yeshivas "poylishe"
If one learned in get they would say "ger"
Chaim

Rockaway Jew said...

Yanover
"I agree. turn down the hate. But what is so special about the 9 days? you think we can fool G-d by acting differently for 9 days than the rest of the year?"
you are correct, in the 9 days we got to get rid of the professional hate mongers, since hate put us in this never ending Goles,
Chazal say, Miter Ledaber Loshun Hora Al Balie Machlokes..may they be Talmidai Chachomim as Doiag Veachitofel, this Ginzburgh guy is proseltyzing some hate dogma, and tries to camouflage it with some lies...he should be exposed

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I know him personally.

Yanover said...

I don't want to say what yeshiva i learned in. I will say however that despite that i was responding to someone i assumed was chabad and i was therefore using chabad jargon, I personally say Poilishe all the time, I dont include Ingarishe or russisher kraizen in that umbrella term like some Lubavitchers do.

case in point, If I was a chabadnik who used umbrella terms for ale andere kraizen i would have said "I learned in misnagged and poilishe yeshivos" not "litvishe".

have an easy fast my holy brothers!

:)

kalman said...

" Rabbi Ginzberg may be trying to be true to his Rebbi's teachings, but doing it at the expense of Torah leaders dear to thousands upon thousand of Jews is not the way to do it."

I dont recall Rabbi Ginzberg doing anything at anybody's expense He did not say a word about any Rav. I actually think that comment would be perfect if directed at Barry Jacobsohn. There was no reason to raise the Lubavitcher issue whatsoever (other than the fact that Mr Jacobsohn is associated with Chabad and clearly hates Rav Shach).
The tone was inexcusable, and the apology unsatisfying.
Look, whether you think that Rav Shach was right or wrong is irrelevant. No one can argue that Rav Shach did anything for money, power, or kavod (unlike many today, unfortunately). A man who, until well into middle age, did not involve himself whatsoever in anything political, a man who was not known for anything othe rthan his limud hatorah, yiras shamayim, and tzidkus, until the brisker Rav pushed him into a leadership role he had no desire for. Clearly whatever he did was L'shem shamayim. And when a person acts sincerely l'shem shamayim without any external motivations, there is absolutely no excuse to denigrate. Gedolim can argue fiercely l'shem shamayim, and the rest of us better get the hell out of the way.

chaim said...

Yanover,
Sorry for misunderstanding you.We obviously don't know each other because I"ve never ever heard anyone refer to Chasidishe yeshivas as "Poylishe" besides Lubavitchers.
The reason being is that besides for Ger, which has a large Polish presence, despite a nice chunk of dilution through many from non Polish backgrounds that joined after the War, there are no real "Poylishe" yeshivas around.Chachmei Lublin is a Hungarian yeshiva for example.

chaim said...

Yanover,
You asked: " But what is so special about the 9 days? you think we can fool G-d by acting differently for 9 days than the rest of the year?"

And why is is brought down in shulchan oruch for Jews who otherwise rely on the lenient opinion that permits pas paltar in all cases, to be careful to only eat pas Yisroel when it reasonably available during Aseres Yemei teshuva??

Obviously at auspicious times we have to be even more careful.Ahavas chinom as the antidote to sinas chinom

chaim said...

Rockaway Jew,
Sorry, but you are a hate monger.Looking for "mitzvos" of hating people, beklompish a big ehrliche yid

yankel said...

Hershel, great day for you. Mention 'shacniks' and suddenly your commenters come out of hibernation to repeat what they have been writing for the past ten years.
This is not about the Rebbe, chassidus or hate. This is about 'me'. He is 'my' rebbe, so he must be great. he spoke against 'my' rebbe, so he must be terrible and full of hate. Don't worry, this is a universal trait, not limited to Chabad. You (party members) can sign up for a group therapy rate.

dovy said...

Yankel,
Why do you think it's only Hershels commenters?
How about the big kahuna, Hershel himself?
You think he thinks any different?
It's funny, he takes umbrage when Chabad is not called "chareidi", yet he and the commenters (actually many of the comments are from one deranged illiterate who changes his name using the posting name as a silly attack tool, btw, a fellow Hershel personally knows )are backing Jacobson, a classic dyed in the wool Modern Orthodox, who defends R'Goren etc.
I like them better when they are drunk....Sober brings out the real hate in these rachmunes cases

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the big Kahuna, LOL

Snag said...

Hirshel -

Did you see the beautiful mayseh about Rabbeinu Hagadol, מרן הרה"ג והרה"צ, רבן ומאורן של ישראל, פאר הדור והדרו, וכו', וכו', מורנו רב אלעזר מנחם מן שך זצוקללה"ה in the current Yoseid?

In case you and your readers didn't see it, B"H it is online and you can see it easily by going to http://www.yated.com/homesick.3-999-3-.html

It tells a great story about a young bochur that was having trouble in Yeshiva and how Maran HaRav Schach treated him when he came for yechidus. The special action he took and the love and special attention he gave him. עיין שם באריכות

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

מורא'דיגע מעשה

Anonymous said...

did you check his tefilin?

Hapeles said...

Snag
beautiful story, but who vouches that it is the Emes

Hapeles said...

Kalman
" A man who, until well into middle age, did not involve himself whatsoever in anything political, a man who was not known for anything othe rthan his limud hatorah, yiras shamayim, and tzidkus, until the brisker Rav pushed him into a leadership role he had no desire for."
another lie

Hapeles said...

Yankel
"This is about 'me'. He is 'my' rebbe, so he must be great. he spoke against 'my' rebbe, so he must be terrible and full of hate"
Reb Mechel Fienstien was not family and he hated him too...

Hapeles said...

Yankel
" You (party members) can sign up for a group therapy rate."
who build a party and splitered charadie jewry Maran? or the Rebbe of Chabad?

Hapeles said...

Dovy
" who defends R'Goren etc."
is defending a talmid chochem that maybe made some mistakes, the biggest sin.
How long did the right wing yeshiva world defend Lebel Troper, who is no talmid chochem?

Hapeles said...

Chaim
"Obviously at auspicious times we have to be even more careful.Ahavas chinom as the antidote to sinas chinom"
So Mo's are more in to hate then Benai Berak?

its chabads fault said...

Snag/duvy
"
ל'בחדרי חרדים' נודע כי אתמול ביקר הרב ליברמן יחד עם עמיתו מבני ברק - הרב וולף - במעונם של גדולי ישראל הגראי"ל שטיינמן והגר"ח קנייבסקי. בין השאר, סיפר הרב ליברמן לגר"ח כי גורמים המזוהים עם הפלג האשדודי ועם 'הפלס' מטרידים אותו באופנים שונים ומשונים ומציקים לו בטלפון שוב ושוב. הגר"ח השיבו: "אני מכיר אותם, אתה לא צריך להתייחס אליהם, כתוב 'לא תגורו מפני איש'". לאחר מכן בירך הגר"ח את הרב ליברמן על פעולותיו למען בנות ישראל.

this is the work of the Talmidim of the biggest Ohev Yisroel of the post war generation..

Cheski said...

Another מורא'דיגע מעשה.

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livingtorah/player_cdo/aid/2265000/jewish/The-Facts-of-Life.htm

hapeles 2 said...

"is defending a talmid chochem that maybe made some mistakes, the biggest sin.
How long did the right wing yeshiva world defend Lebel Troper, who is no talmid chochem?"

Goren "did not make some mistakes"
and i don't recall tropper being defended.btw, like it or not tropper knows more than you and is a actually a bigbaal kisharon.I don't like it, but that's not the point
But why argue with you, you have very

hapeles 2 said...

"Reb Mechel Fienstien was not family and he hated him too..."

What a dumb comment.
You are a very low functioning robot

hapeles 2 said...

"Snag
beautiful story, but who vouches that it is the Emes"

Who vouches for 90 percent of your gebebteh??

yankel said...

HaPeles - you missed the point twice. I am saying that when Chabad and Hershel talk against Rav Shach, they convince themselves they are being virtuous sticking up for the holy Rebbe. They are really sticking up for their holy selves. "It is 'my' Rebbe, so I fight", not "it is a holy man so I fight".

Hapeles 1 said...

Hapeles 2
"But why argue with you, you have very"
so why are you arguing when you dont want to argue?

Hapeles 1 said...

Hapeles 2
" like it or not tropper knows more than you and is a actually a bigbaal kisharon."
one thing for sure he has no talent (Kishronois) in inunie Even Ezer, a talented person does not use force..... the opposite gender should fall for him

HaPeles said...

Yankel
"HaPeles - you missed the point twice. I am saying that when Chabad and Hershel talk against Rav Shach, they convince themselves they are being virtuous sticking up for the holy Rebbe. They are really sticking up for their holy selves. "It is 'my' Rebbe, so I fight", not "it is a holy man so I fight"."
I dont even get now and I am missing the point the third time, You are deeper then deep