Monday, October 2, 2017

Clarifying the 72 minutes חשבון - Satmar Rov was correct (in Europe)

Sunset, New York, The Brooklyn Bridge, Evening

Yosef 718 comments on Shabbos Schedule for Satu-Mare, January 3-4, 1936:
There is a misunderstanding as to how the 72 מינוט works. What we need to know is that anywhere in the world is 'above' sea level (otherwise we would be under water). Sunset in American Luchos are set to 72 minutes after sunset, as if where you are it was at sea level. Of course that creates a small differential, as the shkia to the naked eye seems earlier than at the sea level. Lemashal, here in Boro Park if I actually see the sunset it will dip behind 6th Avenue, (which sits on top of a rise) but if I quickly drive to 6th Ave I will still get to see the full sun! Nobody in Satmar, Tzanz, Belz or Sighet ever knew when the imaginary sea-level shkia is. So that simply explains the 2 minute difference. Google gives you the sea-level shkia. And Satmar Rebbe gave the 'what-you-see-is-what-you-get' Shkia and started counting 72 minutes accordingly. The question is why is the Hisachdus luach based on sea-level? Could be that the Rabbonim were not aware of the difference. And used the Navy information as an easy way to know when the shkia is. PS I got the new Chabad Luach for Brooklyn and it also notes this distinction for all halochos. It is a fantastic luach with everything explained.
























Yosef 718

8 comments:

JB said...


nice try, I still think the 3 minute gap differences has to do with the local established time vs. the train 'scheduled' times, as indicated on the poster.

yo͞okəˈlā said...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

"to the naked eye 72 mins seems to be the "safest" zman... But what do I know?"

http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2016/01/blog-post_83.html

Effy said...

first of all, there are many places below sea level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_on_land_with_elevations_below_sea_level

It is an interesting sugya if elevation makes a difference for shkiah, see this psak (l'havdil) of an imam:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14437334

Itche'la said...

so what's the beautiful sunsetting panarama nestled in the arch of the golden gates bridge of the gay San Fran with with the train schedule of satu-marie? gay vice.

Mr.Kempinski said...

Yo718: "What we need to know is that anywhere in the world is 'above' sea level (otherwise we would be under water)."

The Dead Sea ים המלח Yam ha-Melah lit. Salt Sea Arabic: البحر الميت‎‎ Al-Bahr al-Mayyit is a salt lake bordered by Jordan to the east and Israel and Palestine to the west. Its surface and shores are 430.5 metres (1,412 ft) "below" sea level, Earth's lowest elevation on land. However, this elevation is constantly changing.

:שבת שלום
https://www.kempinski.com/en/dead-sea/hotel-ishtar/

BP Jew said...

kuntres available where?

Anonymous said...

Of course, but even by yam hamelach which is lower than sea-level but since it is in a valley the areas between the sea and the valley are higher. So in the case of the Dead Sea witch ever way you look you see mountains therefore When You observe sunset at the horizon even at the Dead Sea it is dipping behind mountains, which is earlier than the sea level sunset. Most contemporary sefarim that deal with shkiah (or netz) mention this issue.

Indeed it's clear in the mishna yomah that the avodah started at the netz, so (queen Helene made a golden chandelier to reflect the rising sun for that purpose) it's clear that according to the gemara day and night was determined by observation not by sea level calculations
Yosef718

PSOL said...

There is no such thing as "the netz"- honeitz hachama means the blossoming of the sun. The ה is not a ה"א הידיעה.