(Mirrer Bocherim in their אכסניא)
No, these aren't my words, but supposedly the words of Reb Yisroel Salanter, as repeated by Reb Yaakov Kamenecki.
From the Yated online:
"There is a yetzer hora to think that for the sake of making baalei teshuvoh everything is permitted without making any calculations.
HaRav Itzel Petterburg said in the name of his rebbe, Maran HaRav Yisroel Salanter, that kiruv rechokim is compared to those who serve as garbage collectors. No one could say that because they clean the street they are clean themselves. Of course not! Since they carry the garbage the odor clings to them.
The same applies to kiruv rechokim: the odor of transgression clings to the one who deals with it and so he needs to be cautious."
Read it all here
It's quotes like that one that make me question the whole concept of "Kiruv" in the Yeshiva world, whether by a Kollel, Seminars, or any other effort. I just find it hard to believe that people with such השקפות would actually bother and spend time with a Yid who has no Jewish education. It would be so much easier to sit back and say "I don't want the odor to cling to me." At least Lubavitch has some sort of philosophy when it comes to being "Mekarev" Yidden to Torah.
26 comments:
why is it different then the verse of Tanya Kol Hamisabek Im Menuval Misnavel Imoi?
Fair question.
I think the difference is simple, and can be two-fold;
1)nowhere does the Tanya mention that the people you're trying to bring closer to Yiddishkeit are "Menuvolim".
2) I don't think trying to be Mekarev Yidden is to be included in "מתאבק"
Sometimes your Am Haratzus in Chasity's is shocking. I am not here to criticize the Lub Rebbe but that kiruv is like garbage cleaners is mentioned numerous times in Chasidic texts from the Besht and on. Aderabe! The present day shita of Chabad has no mekor.
I am limited in time so I will just bring a few direct quotes although the are countless warnings about kiruv in chasidik texts.
רבי יעקב יוסף מפולנאי תלמיד מובהק הבעש"ט וספר החסידי הראשון
ובספרו כתונת פסים דף כ"ב
ראוי שיעשה עצמו מרכבה לצלם ודמות יוצרו ... ואחר שקישט עצמו יקשוט אחרים שנקראו בנים למקום ... ויש בו סכנה וכו' הטובע בנהר ובא אחר להצילו גוררו עמו וכו' ועצה היעוצה לקשר את עצמו תחלה בו ית' כדי שלא יוכל הטובע למשכו אחריו ... לזה בא להזהיר שיש סכנה בדבר וז"ש לנפש לא יטמא בעמיו וכו' כי יש לחוש לסכנה שיטמאו הם נפשו וכו' וכך לנפש לא יטמא בעמיו בהתקשרות כ"א אחד שיקשר עצמו להשי"ת וכו' ...כי אחר שטיהר כלי המעשה יוכל לטהר כלי המחשבה לקשר נפשו ומחשבתו בנפשם של המוני עם להעלותן כו'
עוד שם דף י'
הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן וכו' אמנם כ"ז הוא אחר שקישט את עצמו תחלה אזי יקשט אחרים ג"כ ע"י התחברות עמהם וכו' משא"כ קודם שקישט את עצמו אין להרגיל במדות הרעות פן יקויים בו ויתערבו בגויים וילמדו מעשיהם ואין להתחבר עם התועים וכו' לכן צריך בהדרגה תחלה לקשט אית עצמו ... ואחר שקישט את עצמו אז ראוי לקשט אחרים .
בסה"ק זכרון זאת מהחוזה מלובלין פ'מקץ
הנה הגם שהוא מצוה גדולה להוציא יקר מזולל אעפ"כ אין נכון לאדם להכניס עצמו לזה, כמו מי שנכנס למקום מלא צואה לטהר את המקום ההוא
ודאי צריך לו מרחוק במרא וחצינא ולא ליכנס לאותו המקום לבער הצואה בידיו ובכל עצמו וכן נמי כן הוא כי אדם מתטנף בעבירות החוטא קודם שהחוטא שב בתשובה וגם שזה ספק אם יחזירו בתשובה והוא ודאי מתטנף ממנו קודם ואפילו אם יחזירו בודאי בתשובה אין נכון לעשות כן כי אם יזדמן מעצמו שבא חוטא אחד ליתן לו תשובה אין לדחותו כי מה' הוא שהזמין כן ... וכן שמעתי בשם המדיד מראוונא ז"ל
non other than the MAGID OF MEZERITCH!!
I have endless quotes to support my claim that what was quoted in the Yated is actually עיקרי חסידות... but I dont believe that it will change your mind since it is not chasidus per se that you are championing. No you are just a hack for your party and still living with some deep unbearable guilt about your conversion to chabad that causes you sometimes to spout such a pile of am haraatzus.
If we can agree on the basic message that 'one who collects garbage stinks like garbage', then you and the website stink like garbage! again nothing personal.
PS. a sophisticated person could say, that the rov wasn't demeaning yidden because his statmetn could be understood to mean that: "within the pail of garbage (the yid's non kosher [probably defiant] actions) there is a diamond (the yid himself)". The masses could understand this though in a very unsophisticated manner and think that some yidden are garbage which is a bit problematic.
Hey Tzig!
Another cheap shot, huh? Well the only difference with wako Lubabs is that they don't smell from garbage.....instead....they REEK from vodka and bad odor.
Take care...
YW Editor.
PS: Why don't you just cut it out and say some tehillim for our brothers in Israel.
AND----how come NO CHASSIDIM HAVE ISSUED ANY KOL KORES FOR MASSIVE TEFILLAH GATHERINGS? [The SNAGS did!]
I think the term "diamond polishers" would describe this sort of career.
Compare and contrast to Likutei Diburim I, page vov (11).
yosef area code, במחילת כבודכם הרמהall the sources not withstanding, NOBODY will say that the "רחוקים" are the garbage being collected. ישרא-ל א"עפ שחטא ישרא-ל הוא & much more so תינוקות שנשבו
A better moshol for Kiruv "collection" would be Shevet Don "me'asef lechol hamachanos", picking up the valuables of the Jewish people that have fallen by the wayside.
: )
how come NO CHASSIDIM HAVE ISSUED ANY KOL KORES FOR MASSIVE TEFILLAH GATHERINGS? [The SNAGS did!]
--------------------------------------
Because instead of duplicating efforts to get publicity, Chassidim have been showing up at every rally that they can physically reach :).
Tzibaleh you say: "NOBODY will say that the "רחוקים" are the garbage being collected"
It just proves my point I brought down clear sources and you have the gall to say "nobody" when the words are in front of you. Because it is not 'chasidus' per se that you are loyal to, or that you are commited to follow.
Your comitment is to the Chabad Rebbe, and thats fine. But whatever fits to his shitah, exists, whatever doesn't is just not there, even though I pasted the very words of תלמידי הבעש"ט for all see, still you can deny and state "NOBODY"
As I stated in my original post, I never expected fanatics like you to be מודה על האמת even when the אמת is right in your face.
to Yosef 718
did you hear of reb aron karliners 82 thousand balie teshuva,maybe its a hyped number,but if you read some chassidic literture he was busy with whole towns of people that were sleeping around with friends wives,
if you know the holy shita of the chabad rebiem that kiruv could be done only if you have hiskashrus to the zadik then you can be assured that your kiruv will not backfire,that answers you Toldoth quote,
kiruv is not invented by the tzadik hador of chabad, its simple ahavas hashem according to the rambam in sefer hamada,
its amazing that yosef 718 is still in the old school of the anti chabad crowd that kiruv rechokim is a laughable matter,
you have to get with the new trend of lev leachim, shuvu, nechomas yisroel of Pam, etc.. with pamphlets promoting young boys putting on tefilin, lulav etc.. on streets. it was all to give jobs for the 100's of yungeliet that can not go to work because of sholom bayis reasons, the bais yakov doctrine is,if you leave the yeshiva you are a goy,
it's amazing the work of kiruv the rebeim of visnitz had to do in bukvina/ beserabia, shemiras shabos,tharath hamishpoche etc, read duvid shem that was just translated from Hungarian, I would like to know if viznits knows which families are from the rebbes balie teshuva.
also is there a philosophy in the the sefer tzemach tzadik that refutes the shita of the Toldoth?
please update the crowd, we realy want to know
anon 1 and 2
כך הוא דרכם של אנשים כמוך
You don't respond to the source at hand. You don't respond to the original posting that accused the Yated of saying something about 'garbage cleaning' as if this idea is not brought down in chasidus ... you just went ahead and ignored it and accused me of being anti chabad. I plead not guilty! The Baal Hatanya וכל תורתו הק' is קודש קדשים by me, so your ad hominum diatribe is just a proof that you can't deal with what is in front of you. For tzibaleh saying "NOBODY" was a plain sheker after my post showing otherwise but he just went ahead and stated 'NOBODY' and I know why because anybody who is shown in disagreement with the Chabad Rebbe be it the בעש"ט הק' himself is a "NOBODY".
Claiming that Reb Aaron HaGodol or the Rebei'im of Viznitz delt with bringing Yidden back. What does that have to do witht the issue raised? Nobody is saying that Kiruv is wrong or is not a חיוב ממש , the issue was if it is מסוכן and has to be done by people who are fully prepared to deal with "garbage". In short the issue is "when", "how", and by "whom" To turn around and make this posting an issue of "kiruv" itself is just practicing hit and run.
Since my time is limited let me bring another qoute of the many I am familiar with.
בספר בית ישראל להרה"ק ר' צבי הירש מזידישטוב זי"ע (דף ל"ד
נודע לנו מדברי הבעש"ט ז"ל כי איש העומד בעמק יצטרך לירד ממדריגתו להעלותו אליו וזולת זה בלתי אפשרי להעלותו אליו ..
וכבר מבואר המשל בשם הבעש"ט כשיצטרך להעלות אחד הטובע בנהר, הסגולה שלא יתן לא יד כי ימשוך הטובע ידו אצלו וגם הוא בסכנה, לכן יחזיק בשערותיו
ובספר לקוטי דיבורים להאדמו"ר הק' זצוקללה"ה מהריי"ץ מלובאוויטש
(ח"ד דף תשמ"ג
אן נעמען יענעם פאר אפינגער און מקרב זיין צו זיך נאר אין דעם דאף מען זיין זהיר עס זעל ניש זיין ח"ו עד"מ ווי איינער טרינקט זיך ר"ל און מען נעמט אים אן פאר אפינגער וואס לא די מען איז יענעם ניט מציל אדרבה ח"ו ער קען נאך דעם אנדערן אויך אריינשלעפין און אז די כוונה איז בשביל הקירוב און דער קירוב איז מיט א סדר ווי ע"פ תורה, ...אח"כ פנה כ"ק .. להתמימים תלמידי הישיבה ואמר די תמימים וויסען ניט דעם סדר ווי עס האט זיך געפירט אין ליבאוויטש ..
The Rayatz says you don't know the seder but anonymous knows .. ahhhh !! mmmm! interesting !!!
הגם שהוא מצוה גדולה להוציא יקר" מזולל"
Area code moron,
This is from your חוזה quote, "יקר מזולל"!
יקר!!!!!!!!!
again, I'm not argueing that there aren't other שיטות re: going out....
What i objected to was calling a jew "garbage" ח"ו!
1) I did answer you about the Toldos that if you are mekusher to hashem, you can go ahead and be involved in kiruv and I think one of the pillars of chasidus is hiskashrus to the tzadik that brings the chosid to hiskashrus bahashem, not only in ruzhin just by every chasidus it was a major focal point the difference is only the emphasis
who said it is not dangerous? the gemora said already it is like throwing a stone to the markolis, in matter of fact the rav in hilchos talmud tora is the most lenient on that subject, by early Chasidim even learning is dangerous, look in yosher divrei emes, meor einim, toldos etc.. against the lomdim,
I am not a chabad chosid and I dont know know every Likutie Diburim, but it looks like words that were said in a fabrengen to chasidim the way things have to be in the real world, it reminds me from the satmarer quotes from likutie diburim that chasidus is forgotten, since the Rayatz was grilling chasidim that they are not learning chasidus and not davening bavoda.
your proclaiming of your holding of the rav is very appreciated, I cant imagine how life would go on without Yossele 718 holding of the rav, what would the mishna berura do? he would delete all the rz's pesokim, also the avnie nezer.
Tzibaleh: first of all you did argue that there arn't other שיטות you used the word "NOBODY" (in caps!) and second, the issue here is not if kiruv is good or is important.
Indeed Hershel Tzig זאל זיין געבענטשט did not either, he brought down a particular article about the fact that dealing with Yid who does not keap Torah is like being a 'garbage collector'. He questioned that kind of expression and the quote was. "It's quotes like that one that make me question the whole concept of "Kiruv" in the Yeshiva world"
All I did and still do was to prove that this concept (specifically 'garbage') is clearly brought down in the of the name of the בעש"ט and the מגיד in dozens ספרי חסידות . therefore it is clear that attacking the Yated on the grounds of being "misnagdic" or being from "Mir" is showing a basic lack of knowledge of חסידות .
To accuse yated or the תולדות הק' that they called a Yid 'garbage' is a deliberate distortion what was said here. Aveiros, "sin" is garbage and a engaging with a בעל עבירה in order to bring him back is according to the Magid of Mezeritch אין נכון לעשות ,even when ואפילו אם יחזירו בודאי בתשובה !
You can show different שיטות thats perfectly fine. But expressing caution when dealing with a בעל עבירה is עיקרי הדרך הבעש"ט as I have amply shown and
Virtually all clasic chasidic seforim warned of the dangers comming out from engaging in Kiruv because in endangers ones נשמה by being involved in "garbage" .
Let me express my הכרת הטוב the host for letting me be overly harsh and tolerate heated debate even though I did attack him. Otherwise I think Hershel is not only a great blogger he is truly an 'artist' the way he collects and positions pics .. the whole blog is very cute and interesting.
אם אין חכמה הבדלה מנין
1)NONE of the sources classify the jew himself as THE garbage. yes, he is באשמירט but a yid stays a yid. & what is being collected is yid out of garbage rather than the other way around. & what the חשש s that the מחזיר will get dragged down.
2) he major difference between those days (early days of חסידות) & ours is that we are dealing with תינוקות שנשבו who are in a totally different catagory.
Yosef
to be fair, we should differentiate between Baalei Aveiroh of the times of the Toldos and today's Tinokos Shenishboo. To call today's Chilonim "garbage", and at the same time as try to bring them closer to Yiddishkeit, is nothing short of stupid.
I appreciate your compliments about me and the blog though.
Hirshel is 110 % right on the point, look in the quote of the toldoth from yosef 718 collection, he calls them Bonim Lemokem, so whats all the parallel to the pure (if you can call a misnaged pure)misnagdishe vort.
Hirshel it is a study of contemporary chabad chasidim they a lot of guys respond. Why should it take 3 postings from me to make it clear that nobody called "chilonim - garbage". part of the reason you, tzib and anon are trying to wiggle out of being cought with the Maggids words himself וכן שמעתי בשם הרב המגיד מראוונא ז"ל שאמר מוכיחהוא כמו מרא וצינא שמשליך זבל לנקות והיא בעצמה מתטנפת כ"א אם רואה עבירות מוכרח להוכיח וכדאיתא בש"ע וכן להחזיר בתשובה את האדם צריך שבל יכנס לעומק הרשעות.. כמו אדם טובע בנהר אם אוחזים בו... וכן להחזיר בתשובה זהו לא יכנס .. ולא לבורסקי לסירחון עונות הרשעים
What is more astounding is Hirshel פשעטעל that since chilonim are תינוקות so it is that their עונות are not garbage its not an עון so if the the chabad chasid comes into contact with people who are משוקע בעבירות הכי חמורות still since the 'doer' is a tinok then the עבירה Itself is not zevel. Gevaldig!!!! there is no סכנה of becoming intimate with a חוטא ooops he is not even a חוטא ... so not only is the problem of dealing with garbage solved! We can also denegrade others who advise caution! ממש געוואלדיג
718 moron, did you ever learn tanya? or is B"HT also אפגעפרעגט?
according to בע"הת you are הלוואי a .רשע וטוב לו
So the question is, should we have anything to do with you?
dear yosef 718
I am sorry to be so ignorant I dont chap what's your point in your last posting,
btw the Magid's word that you are throwing at us has definitly no connection to our discussion, the idea of it to say your divrie mussar what you are obligated to do in accordance the halacha and not delve with a gusto in the details how and when, like the perv masgiach in yeshivos.Or like Reb aaron from monroe as I heard from the clips on google
It's very simple: "az Meirl is tzugebunden eibn, falt er nisht untn". When one is mekushar to the Rebbe, one need not fear. And those "iber chachomim" who tried it on their own, suffered for it.
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