Caring for the Rebbe's legacy.
I wonder if he realizes what people think of him...
Here's a guy who devotes his life to attacking everything he sees, (I know, I know, I do too) and does it very openly, everybody knows who he is, no pseudonym necessary. He davens in a shul daily - out of sheer convenience of course - and attacks all its members, claiming to have uncovered the "secret opinions" of every Lubavitcher that davens there. (I speak of the Bnei Ruven Shul in Chicago.) That alone calls for an investigation. Then the he reads a newspaper article by The Forward and finds more proof for his theories. Wow! What a find, give this guy the Pulitzer Prize...
The point here is not to debate whether or not every Lubavitcher REALLY is a closet Meshichist waiting for the right moment to out himself. There's absolutely no point to that, in my humble opinion, simply because it makes no difference. DGMW, I despise Meshichism and all it entails, but all I see when it gets attacked by guys like Harry Maryles is what all of you see when you see a Grobbe Goy attacking Jews for being cheap or for ripping him off in business; an anti-Semite, plain and simple. Why? because he never misses an opportunity to attack, even when the details of the story are unclear to him, and even when he has absolutely no idea about the mindset and culture of the people he attacks.
144 comments:
you hv nobody to blaim but yourself
lubavitch and theire rabbeis let this apikuses of rebbe mosiach-god tO make inroads into the lubavitcher chasidim and now it is to difiicult to revese it
lubavitch may end up like all the the mosiach shekers from previous generations such as ישי הנוצרי ר"ל
שבתי צבי and the rest wich eventualy turned into open כפירה
ר"ל !!!!
I MUST SAY THAT THE REBBE ESPECIALY IN HIS LATER YEARS CONTRIBUTED A LOT TO THIS REBBE-GOD-MOSIACH PHILOSOPHY AND BY HIMSELF ENCOURAGED THESE MOSIACH-GOD THINKING IN HIS SHICHOS IN ORDER TO PRESERVE HIS PLACE IN THE HISTORY WHEN HE IS GONE.....
שאפראנער
זאג: דו קענסט אפשר ענטפערען צו דער זאך
?
פון דעם האב איך גערעדט
?
dear tzigele
from yr yiddish i see that you are heimisher who was leider פארכאפט
you dont hv a decent answer so you try to divert
the head line of the articale is
"the legacy of the rebbe"
and this is exactly what i am talking about.....
בחור'ל
I wasn't farchapt by anybody. Nobody approached me to join Chabad, and nobody worked on me. I was an independent kid in a Yeshiva that was turning very pro-Satmar - with all its negative attributes - who on his own decided to become close to the Rebbe and to Chassidus. In your crooked world that's Farchapt. That sounds to me like a young child who thinks everybody that looks at him is trying to kidnap him Ch"v.
You see the Rebbe with your Fartamte glasses, the same glasses that manages to see all that's wrong woth everybody else besides for yourself. I feel bad for you.
Get over it:
1)There are lots of whiners in every chabad house.
2)you are a bit slow on the news (helping your wife clean, perhaps?). Harry has already moved on to attacking the latest brilliant idea to come out of Lakewood
Why do all these discussions have to degenerate into hateful attacks???
The problem, as I see it, is that both sides have something to say for themselves. On the one hand any pointing out of problems in Lubavitch is taken as proof of an a priori opposition/hatred for the Rebbe/Lubavitch/Chassidis. On the other hand the issue is a serious one, and only the total lack of knowledge about the extent of the problem is keeping the non-Lubavitch Rabbis (Chassidic and non-Chassidic) from taking open stances on the issue. (Until now those who speak openly about it are very few.)
I do not have a solution to the problem, but things like this have a way of solving themselves. Often in ways that are worse then what people have been trying to prevent. I think the case over 770 may prove the catalyst for this.
oops!!!
i guessed right
now i understand why parents of farchapte lubavs were sitting shiva
i realy have no prefrence for satmar or bobev or else as long you belive in קל חי וקים
however when a yid changes his אמונה FROM BELIEVING
אין דעם לעבעדיקען באשעפער
into believing in a בשר ודם
as rebbe-mosiach-god R"L
FOR THAT IT WAS NOT WORTH CHANGING!!!!!
there are many such believes on the market that are older then the lubavs for example ישי הנוצרי
שבתי צבי שר"י
you are a big רחמנות AND I AM SORRY
FOR YR FAMILY THAT SUFFERS THAT ONE OF THEIR OWN WERE LOST FROM
כלל ישראל!!!!!
There's a reason why unyeshivish people are called "Harry"s
The comparison between Harry and an anti-Semite is inaccurate. It is clear from all that he writes that he does not hate Lubavitch. Anti-Semites do hate Jews. You may think his attacks are unfounded, and you certainly have the right to set the record straight. But you do not have to be a hater of Lubavitch to be upset with some of the things they do.
Tzig
You complain about fartamte glasses:Listen please, and zay an emmesdikkeh mentsch for once:Do you need fartamte glasses do see that Lubavitch has gone off the deep end?
Do you think that everybody who criticizes Lubavitch is a soneh yisroel?
I learned in a heimisheh yeshiva and for a short while learned in Lubavitch, but was turned off big time.I thought that there I would see what real chassidus is about vechulu, it turned out to be 100% Rebbe centered amongst the more normal guys, plus there were many bochurim who were totally lost
Hirshel,
I don’t understand why you always take the bait when it comes to stuff like this. I don’t know Harry – and I imagine that he’s a really well-meaning and nice fellow in person… sorta like HT – but why do you get all excited when he writes his personal opinion about something that really isn’t terribly relevant to his life. Essentially, you’re on the same side of the meshichist argument, and as an outsider he (like all outsiders) misdiagnosis and misunderstands most of what’s going on. Then you, as a quasi-insider, get all up in arms and take it personally because you don’t like his personal opinion (whatever it may be). Why do you care? Do you need HM’s seal of approval for your existence to be confirmed?
Monsey Yungerman
The way the chasidic thing was supposed to be is as follows, Rebbe Centered and thats it, for instance think about Belzer Yeshiva when the Belzer Rov was alive, there was noting happening besides The ROV The Rov...they had the Rosh Yeshiva Reb Sholem a Talmud Chochem Mivhak, but his gadlus was that he was a mekusher, he was calling the Shtelt Wine by the tisch,
Chabad in the Rebbes genaration was quite Rebbe oriented but with the geshmak of Chasidus plus the beautiful Sichos, if you didnt get its your lose.
Zezmir
there's no bait here.
you do not have to be a hater of Lubavitch to be upset with some of the things they do.
While that is true, the following is not:
It is clear from all that he writes that he does not hate Lubavitch.
Like a typical anti-semite, he'll occasionally throw out gems like "some of my best friends are Lubavitch" or "Kehot is the biggest jewish publisher". The gist of all of his posts on the topic is always negative and ill-informed.
"I was an independent kid in a Yeshiva that was turning very pro-Satmar" - which Yeshiva
You don't REALLY think I'll give that away, now do you?
my guess will be its somebody close to meisels or lefkovitz family but i am not sure?????
Now why would your Telshe father send you to a pro-Satmar yeshiva?
Another question:Why were you 'blessed' to be one of the few heimishe who saw the 'light'?
(In other words, you don't sound so naive, so how did you become 'farkisheft nooch Lubab', it's all Rebbe smoke and mirrors.You another yold like Vechter, just in disguise?)
It went to the hell it belongs in, tooth puller.
Harry is an idiot, it is Erev Pesach and no time for fools, back to work.
Hirshel,
You asked, and I quote :''I wonder if he realizes what people think of him...''
May I answer? He gets 100 to two hundred comments and sometimes more, not like you claim thnat it's only about Lubab issues.To me it means that people think he is interesting and worth debating.He is prepared to answer you too.
So if you ask me what I think about Harry? Excsllent blog (and thank you for giving me the link!)
He writes well and is honest.Now I don't always agree with him, but I'm not a Lubab, I don't go to sites to get a pat on the back.
You'd be better off if I did not tell you what I think about your site.....
Btw, I'm an ex Chicago guy, and you have no idea about Bnei Reuven shul.Harry was therte before the Lubab took it over.Bnai Reuven was probably the biggest frum shul in Chicago upto twenty years ago.It was Nusach Ari, but not Lubab per se.The rabbi, Rabbi Harold Shusterman was a Tora Vodaas boy who somehow got suckered in by Lubab, but was a decent, non partisan man. Under his reign the shul was a normal ballabatishe place, till Lubab inc decided to 'retire' him, well the rest is history, today its a classic Lubab place with all the meshugassen, besides the meshichist crud.The only saving grace.But other than that the Lubab did a job on the shul. It's history as a community place
Hmmm
You preaching to the choir again?
'Harry is an idiot'
So sayeth a guy who believes in shlita leolom voed.
putz
Ex-face
I know more about Chicago than you'll ever know, and from way before Devon was a glitter in someone's eye, so don't preach to me about Rabbi Shusterman or Bnei Ruven.
But if you like to preached to by Harry, be my guest. I guess it's true what they say about Midwesterners being square.....
Sorry Hirshel
Forgot that your grandmother lived there and your father went to Telshe Chicago for 4 years.
Whatever the case Lubab ruined Bnai Reuven, and treated Rabbi Shusterman like s%^&*!
As I cannot know the minds and knowledge of all
individuals, I can attest to at least the knowledge
of one whom I respect, He is a Lubavitcher, and one of
the Ziknei HaIr, Rabbi Harold P. Shusterman. He has
probably learned Shas many times and is a Baki in all
of R.Moshe's Teshuvos. When asked a Shaila, he will
paskin for you according to your hashkafa: If a
Lubavitcher he will tell you the Chabad psak, if not
he will tell you R. Moshe's Psak. His education took
place in Torah VoDaas. His shul, Bnei Ruven was for
many years a Modern Orthodox shul which happened to
Daven Nusach Ari. Over the years he earned the
respect and admiration of many people of all stripes
because of his knowledge, Kavod HaBrios, eriudite
speaking style, and inclusive attitude vis-a-vis the
shul. (example: when asked by a certain Baal Habas if
they could establish daily a Nusach Ashkenaz Minyan in
the shul he gave it his enthusiiastic approval).
Of course the mainstream Lubavitchers didn'tlike that.
He was too accomodating to non-Lubavitchers. The
Shul looked too much like a shul and not enough like
770. What really upset them was his disdain for the
Mashichists. As a result of a major influx of
Mashiachist (or tolerant to Mashichissm) Lubavitchers
and the attrition of MO memebers for various different
reasons, R. Shusterman has been marginalized. He
"retired" a couple of years ago, totally burned out
trying to fight the Machiachists. He now is almost
never here for Yomim Tovim. He was pushed out (being
the gentleman that he is, he denies it but it is so
transparent as to what really happened) of the main
Bais Hamedrash on Friday nights, and davens in the
small Beis Hamedrash with what few old, non-Lubavitch
Baal HaBatim that still remain. He gets virtually no
respect from his new Baal HaBatim, only lip service.
It's hard for me to agree to the claim that Lubavitch
respects learning. It is obvious to me that the
Lubavitcher members of this main Shul, of Chabad do
not respect this Talmid Chcham, Poseik, and Zakein.
They only respect themselves.
HM
--------------------------------
Hirshel, this a post from Harry from about eight years ago, on the Avodah web site.I can tell you from my esperience that it's true, though I would not call the shul a classic 'Modern Orthodox' it was more balbatish than that.
I hope you post this.
Stupid anonymous, you have no idea what I believe in. Go wallow in your nivul peh mussar.
Wasn't Sholom Posner Rov or something in Bnai Reuven over 60 years ago?
I have no clue what happenned in the shul itself, but Rabbi Shusterman was well respected in Lubavitch in general.
Harry's a bigger fool than I thought, and I'm surprised Reb Aron Soloveitchik didn't pick up on it.....
Rabbi Hershel Shusterman was not pushed out, and definitely didn't retire because he was tired of fighting the Meshichisten there. The current leadership in Chicago has done more to marginalize the above-named group than anywhere else, including firing Meshichistishe Melamdim and teachers.
Harry, Rabbi Shusterman doesn't need your empathy.
Anonymous
The Meshichisten in Chicago are marginalized in your imagination.They have their own institutions and are taking on the so called 'mainstream Lubavitch'.
Dream on......
You probably still claim that mainstream Lubavitch runs 770.
Right.
Ploni
I never said they weren't taking on the leadership, that's what Meshichisten do. All I said was that the Bnei Ruven leadership, who supposedly ousted RHS for fighting Meshichisten, did more than anybody else to fight them!
Farshteyst?
Don't bother with Ploni, CAPS LOCk and fools. The more meshichisten are pushed out, they will claim the meshichisten are mainstream. They will also tell you who killed JFK.
It seems that everytime an issue of substance is raised, it degenerates into ad hominem attacks.
The cynic in me is now concluding that this is a tactic to deflect from the issue at hand, and yes, there IS an issue at hand, and proper, respectful debate should ensue. It is pure folly to pretend that vocal messianic activists are not disenfranchising segments of the community and that this was never something Chabad wanted to occur in any of it's messages.
It seems that when real points are raised, then a real discussion takes place. When deeply snagged people come to spout, they simply chap petch. You want to have a real discussion with a 3 year old?
Hmmm
Sorry, but if there is any one poster here who has turned this site into a nasty immature one it is YOU.You are a person who never allows (though you are not the webmaster)any discussion, and your silly one liners are tiring.
You should know that you get many personal attacks telling you what an idiot you sound like and worse, what a bad name you give to Lubavitch.Unfortunately Tzig deflects all those posts, but I hope he lets this one through
Der Shygetz with Hmmm are my vote for the most assinine posters here.Much worse than the snags.I'm tired of their predictable drivel.I've heard that crud in the back of 770 for most of my life.
D-I-S-C-U-S-S-I-O-N
Do you know what that means??
When I come here it's to read, discuss issues, not 'defend' not kiss up, not the same boring garbage.
Tzig, I know you are trying, but please:Either block their stupidity or allow people to call them on their crud.Notice that Der Shygetz has disappeared since Radloh tore him to bits here??
"You should know that you get many personal attacks"
The only way you would know is if you are the one sending them ... LOL.
No one has turned this into anything. When the conversation is initiated as nasty and immature, that's what it is, compliments of Harry and Snag Friends. When there is a serious point brought up, the conversation is serious. Harry manages to both post copiously and stupidly. Good combination for getting lots of comments, bad for high level of conversation.
The fact that your idea of "never allowing" is to counter each point at its level, whether it is the facts, the idiocy or the ideology, which will obviously bring a conversation to a standstill if you have nothing to reply, without my ability to control what reply I receive, means that you have swallowed the Yated version of truth.
I am your worst nightmare. I am all of your crud thrown in your face. All your "discussions" tossed in a salad. All your kissing up being stuck back down your throat. All your garbage mangled by raccoons all over your backyard. I am here to put the chamor back into your assinine. When you open the door on Pesach for Eliyohu, I will be there to toss the Golus you create right back atcha.
Not really. But it was a good though.
Hmmm
Why aren't you helping your mother out before Pesach?
Why aren't you helping your mother out by crawling back into the womb?
Someone needs to take on this Harry and without the approval of Tzig (who seems to also have problems with Moshiach) and put things just as they need to be.
The Rebbe is Moshiach. You have a problem with that?
Who is Harry's Moshiach today. If he believes bechol yoim Sheyovoi, then today who is his Moshiach?
I have every right to believe so because the Gemoroh clearly says that "if he is from the dead then he must be..."
So it's the Gemoroh he has a problem with not Lubavitch. He is the koifer.
Chabads problem is with people like hmmm who have absolutely no human mentchlicke skills. Chabad problem is the fear of standing for the truth.
Just like the Reform Conservative vechulu.
Torah tells us to believe everyday, every moment in Moshiach. Chabad is a Moshiach movement Judaism is a MOshiach movement. Harry if you don't like it put it where the moon don't shine.
How come everyone knows Chabad's problem? Harry, Snags, Meshichisten, AntiMeshichisten, Tzemach? When will I be zocheh to the great gilui of Chabad's problem? Perhaps Tzig can reveal it for me.
well, for starters "smokethis" is one of the problems......
"smokethis" is a small problem. But in a way he can also be part of the solution. Because the bigger problem is those like Harry who refuse to acknowledge that "smokethis" has the right to his mishugas; who refuse to accept him as part of klal yisroel because his ranting makes them uncomfortable; who have written him out of the Jewish religion without any basis in halacha, simply because their teacher in grade one taught them something that isn't necessarily torah misinai; but mostly because they never really accepted Lubavitch — mainstream Lubavitch and the Rebbe himself — as legitimate in the first place.
Harry's little soul is filled with hate and anger and bile, and he spills it in the direction of any convenient target: the haredim, the YCT left, the "settlers", but most of all Lubavitch. He has a special place in his black heart for Lubavitch, and any story that can possibly be spun in a way that will reflect poorly on Lubavitch is sure to be featured on his blog with such a spin. And then he will declare that he does not hate Lubavitch, that he has nothing but respect for it, that he has good friends who are even meshichistn, and all his stupid admirers will point to this and say "see? he doesn't hate Lubavitch; he is merely speaking truth to power", or some similar, utterly inapposite, cliché.
Millhouse
Do you know Harry? What are you basing yourself on?
To me he sounds like a very honest person who is prepared to stand up to any group that he thinks has it wrong.That includes rightwingers, Lakewood, Chovevei Torah, and Lubavitch.
Is he right? Many times, but not always in my opinion.A very positive sign is that he does not moderate his posters, allows Lubavitchers and chareidim to defend themselves.
Maybe it's you, Millhouse and your fellow Lubavitchers who have a chip on their shoulders.Maybe, you want to be accepted by mainstream Chareidim, but on your own terms.
From what I see that won't happen as long as you guys don't tone down your radical elements.Meshichisten do not have a halachikally accepted opinion, and if you want to accept minority views, than someone who does not believe, will quote R'Hillels opinion....There starts the slippery slope of every ignoramus claiming his 'opinion' is based on out of context gemorahs
I know Harry well enough from years of exposure to his writing. I know that he wrote that he would make a seudas mitzvah when the Jews would be expelled from their homes in the Gaza area. I know that he savagely laid into a shliach for financial practises that he has no problem with in his own shul. I know that he constantly claims that Lubavitchers have a policy of lying and cheating. I think I know him well enough.
As for the meshichistn, I am not relying on any minority views. There is no view — none — that it is assur to believe as they do. You will not find such a ruling anywhere. It's not even assur to believe that Yoizel is the Moshiach, kal vachomer that it's not assur to believe it of the Rebbe, who was really shayach to be Moshiach.
While we're on the topic, though, I'd like to know what you will do if they turn out to be right after all. However unlikely it seems, nobody can rule that out with absolute certainty. What will you do then? What will you do if it's the frierdiger Rebbe, as the Rebbe himself seemed to believe (or are you going to call him a kofer too, r"l?) What will you do if it's Doniyel, or Rebbi, or Dovid himself? Will you turn your back and pretend it isn't so, because it isn't the way you thought it would be?
'It's not ossur to believe that Yoizel is the moshiach'
Reminds me of once putting the radio on and hearing one of the Jews For J saying: 'who do you think the messiah is, the guy from Crown Heights?'
Millhouse you are now promoting Jews for J 'acceptance'?
J4J is a maintream Protestant church, and is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Its pretense of having some connection with Judaism is simply a fraud.
But if someone is shomer torah umitzvos, and believes in the absolute truth of Torah Shebichsav and Sheb'al Peh and all the words of Chazal, but thinks that Yoizel was a normal human being who was chosen by Hashem to be the Moshiach and will come back from the dead to resume his mission, there is nothing wrong with that belief. It's no worse than believing in homeopathy, or UFOs, or that there's a river somewhere which rages all week and is quiet on Shabbos.
Sure, Milhouse, Rabbi Akiva wasn't wrong either ... we are waiting for Bar Kochba to come back and finish his job as Moshiach and there is no problem promoting this stuff on billboards. After all, Bar Kochba wasn't any less than Daniel or ...
The Rambam just mentioned these halochos for our amusement. After all, that's why he also mentioned that we won't really know how these things will turn out, just so that we can contort the Rambam to contradict himself. Sheesh.
Exactly, Isaac, R Akiva wasn't wrong. That's precisely the Rambam's point. He takes Bar Kochva as the standard of a potential Moshiach, and R Akiva's support of him as binding halacha. Suppose that the day after Bar Kochva was defeated, someone else arose who looked like he might be Moshiach; R Akiva would have followed him without question, and all Jews would be required to do the same, unless they saw a flaw in him that made them honestly conclude that he wasn't Moshiach. The fact that they'd just been disappointed in Bar Kochva should play no role in this calculation.
Now when Bar Kochva was killed, R Akiva stopped believing that he was Moshiach, and that's why the Rambam says that once a candidate is killed he is no longer bechezkas Moshiach. But he doesn't say it's forbidden to go on believing in the person. There may have been people went on believing in Bar Kochva even after R Akiva stopped believing in him, and they would have been entitled to that opinion; such an attitude would have been foolish, but not heretical.
Rabbi Akiva was not wrong in thinking Bar Kochba was Bechezkas Moshiach, but his belief was deemed halachically deficient as soon as Bar Kochba was unable to complete the job.
The Rambam doesn't forbid you from proclaiming that you are Moshiach!
The salient point is that if one doesn't complete the job, one ceases to be B'Chezkas, a fortiori that he ceases to be Vadai. The Rambam tells us this. Other readings are retrospective creative obscurantism.
How DOES one compete for the job; there are many people that would like to sign up...
"I can forgive the insult, but I cannot forgive the affront to the Torah. You are an evil, bad man."
Such classic Snaggishness needs to be applauded, Mr. Dentist. I congratulate you.
Um, Isaac, you've lost me. What's your point? If you agree that there's no issur in proclaiming that I am Moshiach, or that you are (can you prove you're a Cohen?), then where's the issur in proclaiming it about the Rebbe, or Bar Kochva, or even lehavdil Yoizel? And if you agree that there is no issur, then what are you disputing?
You "compete" by fitting the description in Hilchos Melochim. That is the minimalist reading. If you fulfill that AND you do other things which are acknowledged by ALL then you'd fit into the parts which are underspecified and which nobody knows (as mentioned by the Rambam).
If you subscribe to Chazals or Rishonim or Achronim outside of Hilchos Melochim (including say Iggeres Taymon) then there are a whole range of things which can/need to fit into the "times" of the Moshiach, let alone the Moshiach himself. That's fine, although that's not Shitas Chabad.
My own view is that much of the rather forced re-interpretations of previously plain meaning texts by Chabad are due to a fundamental chassidic theosophical problem: the souls of the people are attached to the soul of the Manhig. Once a Manhig passes in to Olam HoEmes, I believe it has always been the understanding that the people become attached to the succeeding Manhig. With the Dor HaShevii, it has become necessary to elevate the conception of this soul and bring more Mamoshes to it (or at least as much) as when it was part of a living being. Various attempts to do this have been published. I think it's become a theological imperative for Chabad, otherwise, to what is the soul mekushor today? Some feel the need to proclaim and bring this concept out to the open, others prefer to accept that such a new concept exists but see no need to advertise it as such, and then there is a third category who have been so affected by the situation, that they have become elokistin and boristin (and therefore disqualified from a Minyan). The latter are mainly the least learned in my experience.
The problem of Messianic interpretation in our times is, of course, not limited to Chabad. The adherents of Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook z"l, have great problems when there appears to be backward steps taken by the State of Israel, and adherents of the views of Reb Yoel of Satmar z"l or the Griz z"l have problems each time the State of Israel seems to do something right which resembles a Kiddush Hashem.
As I get older, I have more questions than answers. My guiding beacon is Mesorah, and here I'm influenced by Rav Soloveitchik z"l, whose Yor Tzeit is today, Chai Nissan, if I'm not mistaken.
Isaac, the Alter Rebbe hot dos shen bavorent in Iggeres Hakodesh, where he quotes the Zohar that צדיקא דאתפטר אשתכח בכלהו עלמין יתיר מבחיוהי. Therefore a person can remain mekushar to the Rebbe, even though he's אתפטר.
As for your categories, please delete the last one. For it to count as a category it must have enough members to rise above statistical noise. There are enough mishugoim in the world that if you come up with any idea, however crazy, you're sure to find a handful of people who will agree with it, just by chance, but such people do not constitute a "movement" or a "category". As Chazal say, אטו בשופטני עסקינן? The people you are talking about are simply שופטני, and they are so few that their very existence is statistically insignificant; for all practical or polemical purposes they don't exist at all. For every one of them, I'm sure that if I scoured Lakewood and its sattelites I'd find at least one person who says equally crazy things, but nobody counts such people as a "category" of Lakewooders, or thinks that their existence reflects in some way on Lakewood.
Milhouse, my understanding (and I don't know Chassidus) is that there is an Inyan to be mekushor to someone in this world. There would be a myriad of Mekoros to show that people are higher, better and still exist in some sense after Petiroh, but from what I have been led to believe, I don't think that is the point here. The Breslaver and the Lubavitchers for example would much prefer their Rebbe Behai Almoh now! It's a Mamoshesdiker Hiskashrus, surely.
I don't think you should dismiss the view of Reb Yoel or the Griz as being a view of a few. I do not subscribe to that view, but there are a sizeable number of people who hold from the Sholosh Shvuos and they struggle with various happenings, as I have described, albeit from the opposite spectrum.
Isaac, the whole point of the Iggeres Hakodesh is that the צדיקא דאתפטר is literally in this world, and in fact יתיר מבחיוהי. Therefore it is possible to remain mekushor to him, indeed it is easier than it was before, and it isn't necessary to pretend that he is not אתפטר. It may not be as emotionally satisfying as it used to be, because we don't see this בעיני בשר, but the Zohar says that, whether we understand it or not, this is the reality.
As for your second paragraph, you seem to be a bit confused. I would not, chas vesholom, refer to the Griz or the Divrei Yoel as שופטני! But if you go back to your previous comment, to which I responded, you will see that you divided Lubavitchers into different categories: "some...others...and then there is a third category". I strenuously deny the existence of this third category. The fact that there exist a few individuals who seem to resemble your description does not justify your referring to them as a "category", because they are simply שופטני, and not statistically significant. I am sure that in Lakewood or in Satmar you can find an equal or greater number of שופטני who believe all kinds of strange things, and act in strange ways — and indeed there may be a question whether they can count in a minyan — but nobody would consider them a distinct category of Litvak or Satmarer; instead people simply feel a rachmonus on them and their families. The same applies to the handful of individuals to whom you refer.
"the whole point of the Iggeres Hakodesh is that the צדיקא דאתפטר is literally in this world, and in fact יתיר מבחיוהי. "
Correct that to say that the Tzadik is literally Emunah Ahavah and Yirah, which are literally still in this world.
You only get better with age. The sincere question you need to ask yourself is, you may have clothed yourself with Torah, but does Torah really want to be enclothed in you?
A troll speaks to a troll! The solution to all of the problems of the internet - get all the trolls to mate with the trolls, and they can leave the rest of us alone.
Just remember my dear dentist, you are not everyone, everyone is not you, you are not Torah, Torah does not want you.
You mean, you finally have nothing to say? Piley Pelaos.
No, its that you are not saying anything which deserves a response. Because you are so disrespectful to people and those who embody the Torah, because you have only said negative throughout this thread and in others, because you are an individual who has nothing to contribute, you don't get responses. And I am not the only individual who did chose to ignore your ranting rather than give the appearance that it is something of significance, either.
Last I checked, I got 3 responses from you. Wishful thinking. I have no problem with snags ignoring me. Gives me more to get down on them.
This is the essential issue. Tzemach would critisize you for parroting words that would have come out of the snags of 250 years ago, the I embody Torah, the kovod HaTorah of Moron, while they had something you lack - true lomdus, and possibly even tzidkus, albeit misguided. Tzig would critisize you for the ego inherent in proclaiming yourself an embodiment of Torah, and explain at length how you are a product of a lack of Yiras Shomayim. DovBear would critisize you for being a product of a meritocracy that sees self-perpetuation as its only, that sees any critisism of itself as being an attack on Kovod HaTorah. Harry would condemn you for not seeing the beauty of the world around you, for not syntehsizing Torah and Mada, for not upholding Kovod HaTorah UMada. These are all valid points in some way.
And I will simply laugh at you. And pain for the pain of the Torah that wants nothing to do with you, yet is chovush beshalshelaos shel barzel in a dentist. I don't want your forgiveness, I never asked for it, the mere fact that you thought you needed to give it is an ego trip, and I would consider it an insult if you forgave me.
There you go again. You simply have nothing to say. Again, I cannot respond to what has no substance.
And I reiterate that I simply cannot forgive you.
I am glad that you continue to comfort me.
I just provided you with 5 avenues of attack on yourself. Defend yourself, if you can: Parroting, ego, tolerance of critisicm, Mada, and whether you deserve Torah. Let us not forget whether your path is truth or not.
I doubt that you can.
I am interested in your continued personal attacks; you don't even know me. But you could not answer up to the simple points which I raised, i.e., how you behaved on this thread and others, which is very telling, indeed. It is amazing how you criticize others you know nothing about in order to deflect very obvious issues of your own. It is very revealing and explain, in my very objective judgment, the reasons why you have become what you are. This makes the path to teshuva all the more simple. Don't worry, I will daven for you.
Reb Yonah:
I can understand you promoting certain ideals and standing up for their leaders, but this "Koved HaTorah defender shpiel has got to stop. Address the issues.
Guys, I have no question in my mind that the whole levush shel torah thing is a spoof on the Rebbe being the levush of Hashem. He just wants you to make fun of the idea.
Hmmm, you obviously are just trying to bother literally everyone on this thread. Rav Lazar does have a good point of that. You just hit everyone with meaningless ad hominum attacks. You know nothing about Rav Lazar's lomdus or tzidkus. Just cut it out and let this stupid thread close.
There are no issues to discuss, just unsubstantiated personal attacks. Those are supposed to be ignored. As an aside, as the levush of Torah, I cannot forgive Hmmm's consistent affronts of a Rav.
If you have an issue you would like to discuss, as opposed to personal insults and rants which, in this case, Hmmm's personal state, I would be glad to address them. In fact, I would even offer to write a guest post on it. Whatever you want.
Send me what you have in mind. If it's not profane I'll publish it. Just don't make it about defending your own Koved.
dovid, wake up and smell the coffee. The levush shel Torah argument has been going on for 250 years, used to justify the egos of those who outwardly prescribe to the Torah's admonition to be humble - they are only defending the Torah, not themselves!
And yes, we do know about him, so cut out the ad hominem spelling challenged attack and contribute.
I see snags can't take their own medicine. They can dish it out to Lubavitch over and over and over again, in the most grube leshonos and derachim, yet the spine stiffens the moment they are attacked. Grow a thicker skin please.
Yona, you haven't read into my list well. An ordinary Jew rejects you. A Lubavitcher rejects you. A doubter rejects you. A Modern Orthodox Jew rejects you. If you look further into the Jewish world, you will find that other Chasidim reject you. Other litvishe groups reject you. Do you feel the isolation yet? Do you believe as others do that the isolation of Lubavitch is an inherent problem?
A Xtian Lehavdil would say the same to me, that they pray for me. I wonder how much different your G-d is from theirs.
I see that you insulted me now, hmmm. That is all I see. I don't know where Rav Lazar repeatedly insults Lubavitch. Maybe once? Ok, you do it all the time. Who are you to judge him?
The argument of the levush hatorah being 250 years old is factually incorrect, and to suggest it is made in bad faith on the part of gedolim of three centuries ago is beyond reproach.
I notice how you distinguish ordinary jews from lubavitchers and other chassidim. Are you that racist?
You have nothing positive to say. Nothing. Maybe its better you take a rest and call it a day. I happen to think you should ask Rav Lazar for mechila. That is his real name, he has the guts to put his name behind his comments--you, like a coward, continue to insult the whole world anonomously. Yay for you.
Hmm, his God is different from yours. He has Hashem, you have your gaavah.
Whatever your little heart desires. It's your call.
No problem. I will write out one of my sichos for you. In English, of course.
Btw, little hmmm, Rav Meir davened for Reshoim--does that make him an Xtian, too? Be careful to call others Xtians, especially when you obviously know so little about your professed religion.
I daven for your kind three times a day--in vilamalshinim.
Forget that, you probably don't even know what that means.
"The argument of the levush hatorah being 250 years old is factually incorrect, and to suggest it is made in bad faith on the part of gedolim of three centuries ago is beyond reproach."
It's the facts. What do you think snags were fighting Chasidim over. lunch? Go study history.
This getting funnier by the minute. I am glad Tzig is letting all of these through.
>>It's the facts. What do you think snags were fighting Chasidim over. lunch? Go study history.
No its not, you go study history. And shame on you for being so obtuse a nd for making such disingenuous generalizations about gedolei hador. Its one thing to be chutzpadik toward someone you may not know, but to write with such blatant disrespect of towering giants--one of whom the Alter Rebbe himself cautioned us to not insult--its a whole other thing. Shame on you. You obviously have serious problems. Feh.
Hmmm, your personal enjoyment of your rishus is something which many would find very sad. That you find it funny merely augments your rishus.
Hmm, you find that acting in contravention of the Alter Rebbe's censure is wise? That it is somehow funny? How could you? What would the Rebbe say?
Wow, m'shist ouf ale fronten. "What would the Rebbe say? Feh. Shame on you. chutzpadik"
Sorry kids, it was fun playing for today, time to go. A Gut Shabbos, and see you afterwards.
Let us review the appearance of Yona on this blog:
On February 15, he shows up as a dentist:
"Rabbi Jonathan Lazar, DDS, from Passaic, New Jersey said...
I am sorry. According to you, a basically average man who forced himself into the position of being the Lubavitcher Rebbe and suffered from delusions of grandeur and thought himself to be Moshiach--a man who brought about destruction of the klal akin to Shabbetai Tzvi and Yoshke--DID have ruach hakodesh? The man was a walking turd, a menuval, and a piece of garbage. "
Thus: A) no issue in calling him a dentist. B) I have called him nothing worse than what he called my Rebbe. Indeed, he deserves much worse than what I have given him.
He then continued on the same day with these selected quotes:
"...And his chassidim on this blog wrote evil, absurd loshon hara because Rav Shach stated that their Rebbe was a false Messiah....What's wrong with being a false Messiah? Gee. What was wrong with Yoshke? What did he violate? ...There is nothing wrong with that? Then what did Yoshke do wrong? What did Shabbetai Tzvi do wrong? ...It is known to those who are honest that other Roshei Yeshiva had deep suspicions about the Tebbe. Deeper thinkers, bigger talmidei chachomim, greater tzadikim--these Roshei Yeshiva saw through the Rebbe. Only Rav Shach had the guts to stand up to filthy, vile, disgusting sonei Hashem like you to defend the glory of Hashem....The sheer amount of vitriol and lies is beyond anything I saw in my entire life. You go from looking at him as an am horetz to thinking he had an agenda. The Rebbe could not learn nearly as well as he. The Rebbe was average in comparion to any of these greats. And while he is burning in the deep pits of hell together with Yoshke, he is looking up at you filthy pigs and crying about the fact that he can no longer to teshuva. Repent for the sake of your savior, vermin."
Have I called Yona anything worse? No, I have not.
So, my dear little Snagalach, take your comments about kovod hatorah, and levush shel torah, and scurry away.
Would you all PLEASE stop fighting like children?! If you want to DISCUSS this, why don't you DISCUSS, & keep the bashing to yourselvs? Can't you recognize the fact that a yid is a chlek eloka mimal, & deal with each other accordingly? Its precisely people like you that make the golus longer & darker. Shame on all of you!
Yonah? hello? How do you respond to these serious charges against you?
How do you "discuss" someone insulting your Rebbe, in light of the words of Chazal on this? Were Chazal CH"V making the golus longer and darker?
Tzig, we already know - Snags can dish it out, they can't take it.
Horav Yonah Lazar is a tzadik. He was defending the disgusting rants all of you made on Rav Shach.
In addition, he did not say ANYTHING negative on this post or any other posts. The fact that you highlight this shows you are a very dishonest person, who is too full of hate to be makir the emes.
If you think he deserves it bad because he wrote badly about your Rebbe, you deserve the same because of the way you wrote about his. You probably did not realize how absurdly childish you were in making that statement. Beside, judging by the way he said nothing negative since, maybe he did teshuva.
Rav Yonah Lazar did nothing wrong on this post or on the majority of posts he made. Hmmm owes him a profound apology. The fact that he he brought up something Rav Lazar did teshuva for (as is evidence by his not ever mentioning anything every again) is a huge aveira. Nothing can make up for the wrong Hmmm committer. The evil coward he hides behind anonomity should keep his mouth shut.
and by the way, hmmm, without regard to your twisted distorted view on the world or its history, I am a Lubavitcher, not a "snag." You are an embaressment to Chabad.
I am also from Chabad, so I do not appreciate your calling me a snag. I think you are an embaressment to the Rebbe, and while you may clothe yourself as having him for a Rebbe, the real problem is that he will never clothe you as his chussid.
You guys can call yourselves whatever you want, if you can read the comments I reposted from Yona about the Rebbe and his Chasidim and not be disgusted then I am glad to disassociate from you.
Of course, Yona has no explanation for the lies and disgusting comments he makes about the Rebbe and his Chasidim. You're welcome to attack me as well, puts me in good company, company which I don't belong in but I'll take the honor.
You don't get it, you lying scum bag. You refuse to take responsibility for the comments made with respect to an equally great human being. That is a porblem, too.
HoRav Lazar did explain his daas Torah on this subject. You refuse to recognize and take responsibility for the evil you have committed. You are so hypocritical, it is beyond the pale.
Hmmm, you are so dense, its sad. Don't you get that you are showing Rav Lazar that there is no difference between us and them, between those who learn the pnimius of Torah, anod those oppose it? You subk lower than he did; and unlike Rav Lazar who never repeated his mistakes, you have continued to sink lower. YOU ARE EMBARESSING CHABAD!!!
shlomo gets the award for comment number 100. Mazel tov!
(Your comments as they are deserve no such thing.....)
shlom, NEVER REPEATED HIS MISTAKES? Has he admitted to their being mistakes and incorrect? What exactly are you?
The bottom line is: in your opinions, anyone can call Lubavitch and the Rebbe anything they want. Lubavitch has absolutely no right to respond in kind. Go snag yourselves.
This is one time I really, really want to read the comments Tzig is not letting through. Cause I'm sure they are there, and I am sure they would help you snag yourselves.
>>shlom, NEVER REPEATED HIS MISTAKES? Has he admitted to their being mistakes and incorrect? What exactly are you?
He never did it again. The Rebbe would forgive, therefore I do, too.
>>The bottom line is: in your opinions, anyone can call Lubavitch and the Rebbe anything they want. Lubavitch has absolutely no right to respond in kind. Go snag yourselves.
CHAS VESHOLOM!!! That is a TERRIBLE thing to write!!! The Rebbe was kadosh, and his name cannot be profaned. But when so many made mistakes with respect to the way so many wrote about Rav Shach without object and only then did he respond in kind, I can be charitable, openminded, and understand why he did what he did. If he did anything like that it again, it would be a whole other story, but, frankly, I think the posters are to blame. Look at what they wrote, change the name to the Rebbe, and you will boil with anger. I know the Rebbe would have have behaved with understanding, I know he would have been big and not small about this. Therefore, I am trying to do the same thing, regardless of how much I am hurting inside.
You did not criticize Rabbi Lazar for what he wrote throughout this thread. You simply kept insulting him. That was not in the category of hocheach tocheeach, it was but a celebration of katnus. That is not how we behave. For that reason, I think you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I love the Rebbe. I really miss him. I cry too, sometimes. And I am confident he would agree with everything I wrote.
PS I did email Rabbi Lazar when I saw his remarks, I gave him tochacha, so, yes, I am privy to how he truly feels and what his motivations are with respect to Lubavitch, the Rebbe, and the balance he attempted to restore. I also know that it is not a coincidence that he never insulted the Rebbe since. A chussid is gresser. You did not show that. Which brings me to the final point. Whereas you may think he is your Rebbe, I doubt the Rebbe would want you as a chussid. Not unless you change and apologize for the personal insults you wielded at a Rabbi since this thread began without any provocation.
Your words are terrible, filled with spite and sinah.
The Rebbe was kadosh, and his name cannot be profaned. But I can understand--and this is key here--that when over 30 comments are made about Rav Shach filled with sinah, lies and prikas oil--I can relate, as a Lubavitcher Chussid, to Rabbi Lazar's justification in balancing things out.
I did talk to him, personally, and I know that his not bringing up anything against the Rebbe is because he was just trying to straighten you out--not chas v'sholom anything else.
I know he donates money to Lubavitch, I know for a fact that he is familiar with some of his sichos and the Tanya.
Your presumption is that anyone can write about Rav Shach--be motzi shem rah on someone who is no longer among the living--and get away with it without a response. He educated you on this. You instead slander him by taking his comments out of context and pretend he meant what he wrote.
If only you would learn.
Look at the posts before his!!! See what happened!!!
I am being more openminded, and refuse to give in to my baser inclinication to insult Rabbi Lazar because I know the Rebbe would have done the same. We forgive sinners. The fact you don't shows that you are not really from Chabad, but, rather, just a rabble rouser trying to make trouble for everyone. This is supported by the fact that not one of your snide and mean comments mentioned what he wrote in response to your vicious attacks on Rav Shach. Your evil comments to me and others on this thread show that you are just a person with a malignant heart who enjoys to insult others. That is not Lubavitch. That is not chassidus. That is katnus par exceelence.
I love the Rebbe. I cry for him. And even though I know he is here, I miss him terribly. I know the Rebbe would endore my approach, my behaviour.
The fact that you act like you do shows that you may think the Rebbe is your Rebbe, but the Rebbe certainly would NEVER look at you as his chussid.
You should do teshuva. I know, for a fact, that Rav Lazar did.
Rabbi Lazar emailed me, requesting that I not inform you anymore about his connection to Lubavitch or his feelings on the matter until you show charotah for your remarks. You are an embaressment to the Rebbe. Feh.
I understand your point, and will respectfully disagree with you. I am not particularly interested in Yona's background. I leave being levelheaded to Tzig, and am glad you are in his league. I have no intention or interest in being levelheaded under these circumstances.
Tzig was not levelheads when everyone was insulting Rav Shach. He let it happen. No one said anything which is WHY Rav Yonah Lazar came in the first place. Frankly, I would agree that the sheer nastiness is a Chillul Chabad and an embaressment of the Rebbe. It should probably be erased.
Question: Who wrote the Machane Yosef? Its a sefer written by a maggid shiur of the beis medrash gevoah of Lubavitch in Yerushalayim. Does anyone know anything about the author? Is he still around? Please respond as soon as you know anything.
The fact is that Tzig allows both sides to be rational or irrational, he himself remains levelheaded. If you can't distinguish, mah naase lanaar?
Explain to me why nastiness is inappropriate to someone who insulted the Rebbe, both Moron and Yona and others? Not why you choose not to, why it should be forbidden from one side, but not the other.
Simple, if it is wrong for Maran Rav Shach or Rav Lazar, it is wrong for you, too. The same law which prohibits Rav LAzar from writing anything appropriate prohibits you, as well. One wrong does not make a right, didn't your mother teach you anything? If its not wrong, then you can do it, but why would you be nasty to someone who did not do anything wrong? The whole premise of bein adom l'chaveir only starts where its hard, when its easy, it is obvious.
PS Tzig, the Moron thing is really wrong. No one is insulting the Rebbe here, it is unjustified. Why not modify that comment?
Anyone have an answer to my question as to who is/was the Machane Yosef? Please?
I barely have time to moderate comments, right now it's either accept or reject with comments.
IIRC the Machne Yosef was written by Reb Chanania Yosef Eizenbach of Yerushalayim.
Was he a highly regarded Ram? Do you have any more information about him? I am learning one of his seforim, and I got curious
Is rav Eizenbach regarded as a great talmid chochom? One of the big boys of lomdus?
I would say he is, yes.
See his pic here.
No Shlomo, what you write proves nothing. You believe that being polite is a universal from of behavior in and of itself, that using mild language is always proper. I do not believe so, I believe that when one is mevaze my Rov and is as if mevaze pnei hashechinah certain language is called for, that if something is stupid it may be called stupid, that if an idea comes from hell (otherwise known as sitra achara) it should be designated as such, and if someone says something foolish as well. The nivul peh that I know Chazal as referring to is that of kallah nichneses lachupah, among other things. But if you want to begin flinging Maamorei Chazal at each other, go ahead. Just not your personal beliefs, I have mine as well.
Additionally, whatever Yona wrote to you privately makes no difference, he didn't post it here, and it doesn't matter if he never repeated it. Once is enough - ask Imus.
That makes no sense, HMMMM. What about all the horrible things said about Rav Shach on this blog? He is justified then? That makes no sense. His justification is your insult. Your insult is his justification. If you have a taanah, tell him, but to insult him without provovation and without any end goal in mind, there is just no point. Nothing.
I just wanted to make sure. Some of his ideas are interesting, so I was very curious to know who he was. He seems to know Rambam very well.
How can I get to know more about him?
How can I get to know more about him?
Travel to Israel?
I thought he would have been something of a personality in Lubavitch given his accomplishments, that is what I meant.
He is unjustified because the things said about Shach etc are true, while those being said about us are not. That is part of the premise of Tzig's blog. You see, I do agree with Yona one thing that you cannot agree with either of us - we both believe insults are appropriate.
There is no way any baal sechel who has any knowledge of the facts would be so demented as to state those lies about Rav Shach in any way resemble the truth. It is simply impossible for a reasonable person to say that. You are obviously too full of hate to talk intelligently and dispassionately about the subject.
State specifically what you consider to be a lie.
Everything there . . .
From his qualifications as a talmid chochom par excellence (see what the Brisker Rav and Rav Isser Zalman Melter wrote abut him!), to the quality of his zeforim, to his personality--everything. Let them battle things out now and see who is right. I highly doubt he had an agenda against Lubvaitch, either--and I am a Lubavitcher (so is my father, grandfather, all the way up to the Alter Rebbe!).
The Moron thing is just absurd.
That he (Shach) had an agenda against Chabad is unquestionable, as pursued the Rebbe and Chabad on many fronts.
His qualifications as a Talmid Chochom are a matter of opinion, not of fact. You can debate the reasons why you believe he was a great Talmid Chochom and why we believe not, but it is not a question of lie or truth. Lie would be to say he never published a Sefer, opinion is to say the Sefer is not of high caliber. The late Rabbi Leibel Kaplan of Tzfas demolished many of the arguments of Avi Ezri, his opinion is enough for me.
You give no details on other issues, so there is nothing to discuss.
Moron is simply the Chasidishe pronunciation of Maran. Kamatz, y'know?
I know that, but everyone can see the sneer double entedre. I know several Lubavitch talmidei chachomim who are more impressed with Avi Ezri than they are with the Sichos and the Rebbe's teshuvas. That's an opinion. too.
I don't think anyone legitamite (and that would include R' Leib Kaplan) would disagree with Rav Shach's towering intellect and depth of knowledge in Torah. I think more legitamite people would disagree as to the validity of his hashkafos. We, obviously, would disagree with them. But to write so ridiculously about his scholarship (or write a hatchet job like R' Leib that even I can eviscerate) is utterly stupif and pointless. There were a lot of mean things written on that threat, many of which were obviously untrue. I think even the Rebbe himself would have respected Rav Shach's knowledge. It is a shame we get so stuck in doogma and politicas that we cannot call a spade a spade.
I have friends who are Rabboinim, who, for all their respect to the Rebbe, would add that R' Moshe and R' aharon were unique to the generation.
That's an opinion.
Writing that Rav Shach's sefer is hogwash is plain out stupid and incorrect.
I write this as a Lubavtichter who took the time to learn the Avi Ezri. Its a different style, but it is sharp, reasoned, and on point.
Shlomo, see? It's a matter of opinion. You call it a hatchet job, and try to use the time honored method of saying someone (whom you then procee to insult as well) would really agree with you when they themselves said the complete opposite. All I see here is opinion, opinion, opinion. Without anything convincing enough to turn the opinion into fact.
Which means I am still waiting for an actual lie, not something that in your opinion is a lie. Something that can verifiably be said to be a lie. Like, soandso did or said XYZ.
So Rav Lazar siad nothing wrong when he said the Rebbe was ignorant? Just to make sure, is this, according to you, a mere opinion?
I state with absolute certainty that I would be able to completely eviscerate ANY of the problems raised in the Avi Ezri by an individual whose agenda is to make Rav Shach look bad. I don't say its perfect, only that the goal of that author is quite obvious to any objective person.
Of course he said something wrong. In my opinion it is a lie. I can even back it up - has anyone been able to fight the Rebbe's lomdus? Show me somewhere that is is fought. It doesn't matter if the person doing so has an agenda, the question is truth, isn't it? Or suddenly it becomes a question of relativity, when you wish to do away with the proof someone else brings.
Regardless, we are not discussing whether or not Yona has a right to have an opinion or not. He doesn't think he has an opinion, he thinks he speaks absolute truth.
Yonah did point out a flaw in the rebbe's lomdus in one of his sichos. I think he has a point by the way.
It is not a question of relativity, it is just a matter of sense that the ranting of an a farbissiner elementary shool teacher on the failings of Einstein's theory of Relativity means very little in the scheme of things. That's all. And your rayah, I am sure you are aware, is not a rayah. Rav Shach himself said things about the Rebbe's lomdus. This is a silly fight, that is all I am saying. And we are better off acknowledging the greatness of both proponents rather than talking like a bunch of farbissiner elementary school teachers.
I don't recall Rav Lazar saying that he speaks the truth, I recall reading two posts which mimic the tone of disrespect many contributers to this blog have towards Rav Shach.
shlom, now you're just entertaining. Thank you. Anonymous, where did Yona point out this flaw precisely?
Hmmm,
There is a great deal of sense in what Shlomo said. It is a profound, lamentable shame that you are so closed minded that you must view someone far greater than you will ever be as a charlaten or mediocrity. The Rebbe always encouraged that we be bigger, have objectivity. You are not an example of that. As Shlomo wisely noted before (and I very much admire his patience with you) you may call him your Rebbe, but he would never call you (or want you) as a Chussid.
Rav Lazar's point was on a sicha published here about the Chazon Ish. Based on a Gemara the Rebbe deduced that a neshama could be jealous (this is a lot more complex, as there are Rishonim on this subject) of one downstairs and maintained that the Chazon Ish MUST have been jealous because ONLY chassidus is the pnimius of Torah. He found several similar poorly crafted logical edifices like this in his Teshuva. You may not like this, but I doubt ANYONE would find such glaring jumps in deductive reasoning in Avi Ezri. I would know, I went though a lot of it. Have you? (I know, you will say its trash, and that others wrote bad faith hatchet jobs on the sefer, so who cares). The point is faults can be found if you have krumme oigen. That's the way that fellow looks at Avi Ezri.
I am shocked you would be so farbissen, hmmm. It is like you are not interested in seeing a bigger picture or being makir emes. I feel sorry for you in this respect.
Whoa, I have no personal opinion on Shach's lomdus, the discussion is on an opinion someone else posted. I stated that the opinion is a valid option, based in part on Leibel Kaplan's perspective. It really doesn't matter to me, the question was if it is a lie to say so or an opinion.
Yona did not post anything substantive in the thread on the Chazon Ish, I am not sure what you are talking about.
I am shocked that you are so cold hearted when it comes to chutzpah towards the Rebbe. There were many that tolerated such chutzpah in the lamed's, the mem's and mem hey-zayin, and I want no part of them.
You can choose wording more carefully. The way I see it you are cold hearted to some and not cold hearted to others. That does not mean you are not cold hearted, only that you are fundamentalist with respect to a very narrow understanding of an inarticulate viewpoint.
I am sorry, I was writing from my conversations with Rav Lazar. He had several others in the Teshuvos. His points, then, show that his opinion is valid?
I just want to show you where your logic leads. . .
Of course Yoan thinks his opinion is valid! It isn't, because it is not true - in my opinion in some cases, in reality in others.
What Yona writes to you privately makes zero impact - absolutely zero, even after you post that he wrote to you and changed - as he did not write so publicly.
of course that fellow thinks his points are valid, but they are not, in reality--a fact. I can easily rip his points to threads.
I meant my above statement in connection with the fellow who wrote a misguided, politically motivated hatchet job on Avi Ezri (as opposed to a substantive one); not, chav v'sholom, the arguments of the other prestigious members of this thread--including Shlomo and Rabbeinu Yonah.
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