Wednesday, April 9, 2008

Daas Torah Is Dead, Long Live Daas Torah


Posters From Here

I guess we can honestly say that; just like the phrase speaks of the death of one king, ("the king is dead") and the ascent of another to the throne, ("long live the king") so too with Daas Torah. Some of you may have followed the saga of a young girl who met a young man while studying in the finest seminary in Israel, and recently married against him her father's wishes. The father should ask for his money back, in my opinion, but that's beside the point. The storm it caused in Yerushalayim is one for the ages; never has something like this happened. Letters signed by Rabbonim, and demonstrations at the wedding hall, and all this time the press in Israel had a field day reporting on this. The story goes something like this:

This girl has the (mis)fortune of being born to a very rich father, one of those who tells his kids "do as I say, not as I do," if you know what I mean. It seems like she did what her father told her to do for the most part, but then had a difference of opinion as to whom she should marry. So she went and got engaged to him anyway, even posting pictures of themselves on Only Simchas. All this time the father was planning to disrupt the wedding by all means necessary. I mean ALL means. The boy's father, on the other hand, is a yeshivisher-type man who supported his son's choice of bride, and went ahead with the wedding plans. Not to be outdone, the girl's father went around the Rabbonnim and Roshei Yeshiva in the Holy Land and informed them of the great Avloh that's about to happen, that a Bas Yisroel is to marry against her father's will. It's a very novel idea, that maybe other disgruntled parents should think about when this c"v happens to them, but I don't think the Torah will help them in such a case.

Before you call me insensitive to a father's wish, remember this: i too have children, and I too would be devastated if my daughter came home and told me that she found her Basherte, or that Mume Liba, or Choshkoh, made the shidduch for her, if you know what I mean. I would try hard to talk her out of it, and, if necessary, would boycott the wedding. But to go to Rabbonim and make them sign letters that the wedding shouldn't go on?? what kind of monkey business is that? then the tzaddik goes and pays a bunch of unemployed Yerushalmim a hundred pounds a piece to go and demonstrate in front of the hall; they should be mocheh on Bizuy Rabbonim if you will. What a joke. If recent events here and in Israel didn't do the trick of killing the respect for Rabbonim among the skeptics, this surely banged the last nail into the coffin. Why then do I say "Long live Daas Torah" if Daas Torah is dead? Very simple. Daas Torah will rise again, and those that don't know better will buy into the hype once again.

And people say Lubavitchers are fools for believing in their Rebbe....

51 comments:

Anonymous said...

NOW THIS RICH GUY SHOULDV'E BUILT THE BAYSWATER MIKVEH INSTEAD... BUT YOU KNOW WHAT... THE LUBABS ARE STILL FOOLS - NOT FOR BELIEVING IN THEIR REBBE, BUT FOR GIVING THEIR REBBE A IMAGE THAT HE REALLY DIDN'T DESERVE. HE WAS TOO GOOD OF A MAN.

Anonymous said...

whose the girl? the guy? whats wroing with what they did? why is against tora?

Tzvi said...

well, if people would be going around making their own shidduchim we'd have a bit of a problem i think....................

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm not condoning self-made shidduchim, I'm just wondering what the Issur to marry is once it was done in such a manner.

Anonymous said...

its almost as insane as collecting signatures fromrabonim who is moshiach

Guravitzer said...

Let me tell one thing. The first thing... and the second thing... and the third thing...: Never boycott your kids wedding. If they are marrying a Jew, you go. Any other position has no merit. You can nudge, you can argue, you can beg, you can plead. Not attending the wedding has no affect, attending does have an affect.

An Ailmesher said...

Ok Guravitzer big shot, what would you do if your daughter decided to marry a snag, a talmid of R. Shach and a misnaged to lubavitch, someone that was particularly against the last Rebbe?

How about if she got engaged to an NK nut who supports the Palestinians (I've got to admit that I would have trouble with that one)

Anonymous said...

It has been reported that the chosson is divorced and beat his wife besides 4 the fact that hes bummy.Now your naive 18 yr old daughter falls in love with him should you not do anything in your power to save your daughter from what could be a lifetime of pain? would the tzigele not react the same way

Anonymous said...

Do yot really believe the yeshiva world ie lkwd bnei brak is not going to listen to daas torah anymore?Do you have a clue as to how revered R C Kanievski is in the litfishe world his geoinis and prishus are stuff of legend this is not some so called rosh yeshivah here. Go meet R M Y Lefkowitz and you will see the most ziseer yid an emise onuv you would change your tune.reading your blog u would think these r foaming at the mouth lunatics not people who havent taken their eyes out of a sefer in 80 yrs and who tremble from an aveira. Truthfully tzig your playing with fire HIZHARU BICHACHUMIM. PLEASE BE CAREFUL

Anonymous said...

Tzig, don't talk about things you have no knowledge of. I'm the last person to stand up for 'daas torah' but in this case I have real knowledsge of the situation, and I think this is the best thing done by the gedolim in ages. The girl comes from a broken home, is a real victim of circumstances, she didn't go to one of the finest seminaries, my sister was in the same seminary as her, it's mostly for girls with real issues. Although her father is rich, she has had a life that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Bekitzer, she needs rachamei shomayim merubim. This boy really is awful, he was divorced by the age of 21, and leis man depalig that this a terrible tragedy. My wife is herself a close friend of the girl's sister. This boy isn't stam a guy who left yeshiva, he's a thug, who treated his last wife (whom he lasted about 5 minutes with) terribly.

Hirshel Tzig said...

If you'll pay attention to how I write you'll see that I don't diminish the people themselves. On the contrary, letters like this make people see them in the wrong light and hurt their image.

Hirshel Tzig said...

That's all good and well, but how does Daas Torah and letters from Rabbonim help the situation? It seems like her old man did the same thing he doesn't want her to do. I'm sure there are better ways to deal with a situation like this. Besides, based on what you said she'll be on the street again in no time. The "thug" will get ttired of her too. Unfortunately, so goes it with divorces often, once they've done it one time, the second time is only a matter of time....

Anonymous said...

אתמול הלכו שנים מדודי הכלה לביתו של ר' חיים קנייבסקי בבני ברק לשאול אותו האם באמת הוא חתם.
תשובתו של ר' חיים הייתה "אף פעם לא ראיתי כזה מכתב, ואם הייתי רואה לא הייתי חותם".

מישהו (א, ג,) מאנגליה הגיע לארץ ל"ארגן" את ביטול החתונה בכל מחיר.... כנראה שזה היה חלק מהמחיר הכבד אותו היו צריכים לשלם....

Anonymous said...

So the Kallah's father didn't want his daughter to marry a divorced man much older than her?

Obviously it's "do as I say, not do as I do".

Shmuel said...

didn't rabi akiva have this problem, did kalba sovuah get rabbonim to stop the wedding? anybody know?
how about the baal hatanya was his shever fine with the shidduch?

Guravitzer said...

ailmisher, I would do everything possible to discuss it with her without alienating him/her, and then attend the wedding. NEVER not attend the wedding. This is serious stuff here, not your stupid inconclusive usual lubavitch-or-anyone-else-you-happen-to-target foolishness.

Hirshel Tzig said...

The Baal HaTanya's shver only found out after the wedding that his SIL was a Chossid. He only traveled to Mezritch after the wedding. But the point is well taken; He too wanted her to divorce her husband. It is different once she goes over לרשות הבעל, she has no requirement to listen to her father.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

I think most of us would be pretty upset if our children married against our wishes. We would talk to them, argue, maybe take them to gedoly torah. But in the street fighting! Even not attending is better than that!! If my child married into Chabad, I would be quite upset. But the only way I would not attend, or not support them (morally and financially) would be if the guy believed the Rebbe was Hashem. Of course, personality clashes are more likely to show up in such a scenario. Where my SIL or DIL to walk around MY HOUSE cursing out Rav Sach, I don’t think they would be to welcome. If they kept their opinions to themselves (at least in my presence), that’s life, kids will do what they want.

And the idea of Gedolay Torah writing public letters about personal issues is absurd. What sane rov would send a letter to the Chossons father trying to convince him to oppose the shidduch, by calling his son a bum etc. I wonder if the letter was actually signed by these rabbonim. It looks like only the second half of the letter was actually handwritten by RMYL. The whole first half (including the salutation) is in a markedly different handwriting. In any event, seems like the real point was to embarrass the chossons family, which is why it was plaster around.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

” And people say Lubavitchers are fools for believing in their Rebbe.... And people say Lubavitchers are fools for believing in their Rebbe....”

HT, I don’t understand you. For me, a true Litvak, the story is a disgrace. But you are a chosid, and had YOUR Rebbe signed such a letter, you would be writing pages about how simple it is, and only haters don’t understand it etc. So why do you make fun of the ‘Litvishe Chassidim’. It is only a question of who the Rebbe is, RCK or the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

In short, what Litvaks object to the most about chassidim is what you are objecting to now. Welcome to the club!!

Hirshel Tzig said...

It's time to start a true Litvak party, one where every Litvak is for himself, and Rabbonim aren't listened to, simply because everyone farshteit punkt azey gut vi zey.

Twisty: will you do the honors?

Guravitzer said...

"It is only a question of who the Rebbe is, RCK or the Lubavitcher Rebbe"
I know, it's like, don't pick on those poor xtians, after all, it's just a question of who god is.

Friendly anonymous said...

other ideas for the father (all a bit late now, but no one asked me at the time):
1) Pay the boy $100,000 to look for another gullible sem girl
2) hire some Satmar chevre "vekoyfin oysoi ad sheyoimar eini rotze ani"
3)Kidnap his daughter and send her to that boot camp in Jamaica with Hirsch's boy(just kidding)

Isaac Balbin said...

The letter was clearly "divrei chizuk v'tanchumim" for the parents. They knew nobody would listen to them. It was designed to make the parents feel better, as if "Yodeinu Lo Shofchu ..." You know what I mean, so that the other children won't have this "shemetz" against the family. Parents did "all they could". Some people need this on a Shtar.

As to the kids, I wish them that they should build a Bayis Neemon BeYisroel, and I can hope to see such a letter making them insistent to prove that they can make it, and make it B'Ruach HaTorah. Ironically, if the Chosson made it (money wise) I guarantee you they would all be lining up to take his money.

I am hopeful (I don't know the family) that after all children have been married, mummy and daddy will come to their grandchildren. If they don't, well, what can I say. She isn't marrying a Goy. He is obviously disenfranchised, let's hope this makes him determined rather than further disillusioned!

I don't know why Hirshel has to connect this to Chabad, albeit with a long bow. There is a curious malady at play here.

Anonymous said...

>>And people say Lubavitchers are fools for believing in their Rebbe

But they ARE fools for believing in their rebbe. (What kind of notion is this, BELIEVING in your rebbe? Believing in God, is one thing, in an ordinary man of flesh and blood? That's not Jewish).

Anyway, the story--for what it is--is much more complicated than you attempt to portray it in your effort to slander non-Chabad, i.e., Jewish, people. Its disgusting, but a consistent Chabad theme.

The point is there is a Maharik on this issue. Those who know it and the problems with it in relation to girls vs. boys understand the issue. Tzig, a Chabadsker, along with all the other Sonei Hashem in Lubavitch don't know it, because they will rather learn about BELIEVING in the rebbe, a college graduate who was koveiah ittim.

Anonymous said...

וויי איז פאר א דור וואס מען לאכט די רבנים אין פנים אריין, תורה תורה חגרו שק

baalbatish said...

Who came up with the bright idea to send 17 year old girls to Israel?

Rabbi Boruch (Borat) Sagdievsky said...

B"H

Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>And people say Lubavitchers are fools for believing in their Rebbe

But they ARE fools for believing in their rebbe. (What kind of notion is this, BELIEVING in your rebbe? Believing in God, is one thing, in an ordinary man of flesh and blood? That's not Jewish).

Anyway, the story--for what it is--is much more complicated than you attempt to portray it in your effort to slander non-Chabad, i.e., Jewish, people. Its disgusting, but a consistent Chabad theme.

The point is there is a Maharik on this issue. Those who know it and the problems with it in relation to girls vs. boys understand the issue. Tzig, a Chabadsker, along with all the other Sonei Hashem in Lubavitch don't know it, because they will rather learn about BELIEVING in the rebbe, a college graduate who was koveiah ittim.

Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:54:00 AM


Yeahand "ve'yaaminu be Hashem uMoishe avdo" and "ve'gam becha yaminu le'oilam" etc.
means nothing of course must have been snuck in our Torah by the Christians somehow
and many stories in Tanach that play up emuna in a tzadik - Ish Elokim even if he says to go and immerse 7 times in Jordan to cure leprosy or bring all the vesells in the house to be filled with unlimited supply of oil etc.
And of course unlike the Rebbe who learned Torah only part time while in college Moishe Rabbeinu learned Torah full time all his life in Pharoah's palace and later in the house of his father in law the high priest of Midian .
And of course Rabbi Yehudah haNassi or the Rambam for that matter also learned Torah full time all their lives.
:-)

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Don’t know why Guravitzer and HT are doing their best to ignore and make fun of my point. Maybe because I correctly pointed out that they were laughing at themselves. To make it simple for those who seem to have been drinking all the extra liquor before pesach :-); In the litvisher world, the idea of asking a gadol about such a personal matter and then plastering it all around town is a new development. It was imported to the ‘Litvish’ world by all the Hungarians and reformed Chassidim that make up 90%+ of the ‘Litvish’ world. In the chassidish world such behavior is par for the course. Which is why I don’t understand what you two are laughing at. I think it is funny the idea of such involvement, you just don’t like the person asked, but were it your Rebbe, would think such involvement is normal.

Guravitzer, if you think the only difference between Yiddishkiet and xtianity is the name of G-D, then maybe it is true that all Lubavitchers are idol worshipers!! The Jewish world has a little problem with the idea of a G-D being born, having to die to atone for the world etc. You have no theological problem with what these Gedolim have done, you just want different people to be the ones doing it.

Isaac Balbin said...

Baalbatish said: "Who came up with the bright idea to send 17 year old girls to Israel?"

I guess the same bright idea that said they'd be ready for marriage at that age?

Unless you hermetically seal them in your house or some dorm with a mother superior who watches their every step, you haven't got full control. (I'm not an advocate of seals of this nature)

It has nothing to do with Israel per se. That was Chet Hameraglim, the week after parshas metzora. Pook Chazee will tell you the incredible influence of Limud HaTorah Bikdushas Ho'oretz.

Guravitzer said...

In the Chasidish world, we actually have a theological and philosophical system to back it up. We believe Tzadikim have a higher Neshamah than us, we believe that they have Ruach Hakodesh. The Litvish world has accepted a mechanical idea of Daas Torah with no underpinnings. That is why we laugh.

Explain the theological and philosophical underpinnings of Daas Torah, if you can.

The Bray of Fundie said...

higher neshama= divine grace
daas torah = earning it.

BTW the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

All yegiah and amidah b'nisyonos being equal the higher neshoma will gain greater insights into the metaphysical goings-on via daas torah/ruach HaQodesh than will a lower neshoma.

Are all Ba'alei Ruach HaQodesh, even acc. to Chasidisha Philosophy, of eqaul clarity/stature?

Guravitzer said...

But misnagdim claim no ruach hakodesh.

I agree with you that the two go together. I am sure there were many high neshamos that did not fill their potential.

No, not all Baalei Ruach Hakodesh are equal, just as not all Neviim are equal.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Guravitzer,

You still missed my point, I DONT BELEIVE in the new DAAS TORAH concept. But you do. All your "theological and philosophical system to back it up" apply to any taddik. So why laugh; because these guys don't understand the theological and philosophical system behind there belief. In essence you are saying “Look at these fools WHO BELIEVE EXACTLY AS I DO but don’t know why”. Small reason to laugh, unlike myself, who is laughing at the entire concept.

BTW, you can be a believer in Ruach Hakodesh etc and not this "Daas Torah" as it is currently used. Like me. I think it is a perversion of Daas Torah to apply it to some interfamily dispute.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Explain the theological and philosophical underpinnings of Daas Torah, if you can."

See Kovet Mamarim from Rav Elchonon Wasserman (yes the last of the Skohp Trop Wasserman trio) for an explanation, which has little bearing to the story on hand, of Ruach Hakodesh etc

Guravitzer said...

No, they don't believe as I do, because they belief in a "concept" called Daas Torah they made up to copy Chasidim, while I believe in Tzidkus and Ruach Hakodesh.

As I don't own Kovetz Maamarim, you will need to summarize the point for me.

2 Mikra 1 Targum said...

Borat:Yeah and "ve'yaaminu be Hashem uMoishe avdo"
>

This seems to be used regualrly by some Chabadniks as proof for their beliefs. Of ocurse if they woul dbe maavir sidrah weekly - they would have learned the true pshat - as per Onkelos. Ayen sham.

Anonymous said...

>>Yeahand "ve'yaaminu be Hashem uMoishe avdo" and "ve'gam becha yaminu le'oilam" etc.

This is not what Tzig meant by believing in the Rebbe; nor is it what you mean when you say believing in the Rebbe. Please be honest.

>>means nothing of course must have been snuck in our Torah by the Christians somehow

It is. The distinction between the Jewish belief in tzaddikim versus a dead man who is dreamed to be the Moshiach is the difference between Jews and Christians.

>>and many stories in Tanach that play up emuna in a tzadik - Ish Elokim even if he says to go and immerse 7 times in Jordan to cure leprosy or bring all the vesells in the house to be filled with unlimited supply of oil etc.

See above.

>>And of course unlike the Rebbe who learned Torah only part time while in college Moishe Rabbeinu learned Torah full time all his life in Pharoah's palace and later in the house of his father in law the high priest of Midian .
And of course Rabbi Yehudah haNassi or the Rambam for that matter also learned Torah full time all their lives.

Now you are comparing the rebbe, the most polarizing figure in the frum world in the 20th century--to Moshe Rabbeinu and Rav Yehuda Hanossi. The fact is that the rebbe was backpacking in Europe for 12 years, and all he has to say for himself is bubbe maises made up by chassidim who believe its a mitvah to lie about him if it flows from belief in their rebbe. (Another major difference). The point is this not how gedolei yisroel behaved. And lets not get into the other horrible things he did.

Guravitzer said...

I assume Tzig allows comments such as anonymous at 11:54 am through to demonstrate true illness.

Anonymous said...

Sadly this has turned into another Rebbe/Daas Torah shootdown. The real issue was mentioned above: 17 YO girls running around Israel with no supervision. Check out Ben Yehuda motzei shabbos. 10,000 girls are in Israel any given time with no oversight. You send your girl to sem, be prepared for the worst.

Anonymous said...

True illness is a man falsely proclaiming himself moshiach

Guravitzer said...

But he did not. The illness continues.

Yair Dayan said...

I am not a “LUBAVITCHER” or a “SNAG”.
My Family is from Israel and moved to Canada.
One thing I do know is that the Lubavitchers are ABLE to have a Tzadik.

Please put all your hatred aside and listen.

My mother came to Canada expecting a child, and he was born IN THE 5 MONTH, the doctors all said that 99% he won’t make it. My Mother in the hospital picked up the newspaper and saw an article about a Lubavitcher Rabbi, and gave it a try.
My brother is now 32 and walks around perfect without a scratch.

I am not saying he is “Moshiach”, And I am not saying he can’t be “Moshiach”,

BUT HE IS NOT A CLOWN, and don’t treat him like that.

Shmuel Klein said...

What "Yair" has said is 100% correct.

Chabad don't worship there Rebbe, they just know he can give brochos that really work. The Rebbe also gave alot of advice to every Jew (not only chabad) and even non-jews and the advice always worked.

The Rebbe’s advice MANY times, was clearly through "Ruach Hakodesh".

Many people these days are born with a hatred to chabad, ( which is influnenced by there parents).

I am asking you now, PLEASE, if you agree or if you don't agree to what the chabad poeple do,

DON'T BOTHER THEM!!!

Did they do anything to you? Do you know how much good they do? Do you know how many Jews rely on the pesach seder that the Bochirim do in Russia?

And the second a person does something wrong you blame it on chabad. WHY? Do you think that he is the whole lubavitch, Blame it on his foolishness, NOT ON CHABAD!!

baalbatish said...

Baalbatish said: "Who came up with the bright idea to send 17 year old girls to Israel?"

Isaac Balbin said: I guess the same bright idea that said they'd be ready for marriage at that age?

Unless you hermetically seal them in your house or some dorm with a mother superior who watches their every step, you haven't got full control. (I'm not an advocate of seals of this nature)
------
The people aka Hasidim who marry off their girls at 17 are not the same people who send their girls for a 1 year holiday to Israel.
The Hasidim marry off their girls so they shoudn't be roaming around and they should take on the responsibility of married life. The young marrieds generally live near their parents so they have a connection with their family and community. While the non-Hasidim give carte-blanche to hormone raging teenagers, not only do they provide a fun-filled year in Israel but then several more years of blissful honeymooning with their newly minted husbands,in Israel and later Lakewood.
There is a wide gap between a nunnery and watching over your daughters close to home.

Besides,If we keep the kids closer to home we can keep many hard earned dollars back in the USA.

baalbatish said...

Isaac Balbin said: Pook Chazee will tell you the incredible influence of Limud HaTorah Bikdushas Ho'oretz.

----

I don't think Kedushas Eretz Yisroel applies today. The kids come off the plane brandishing Dad's American Express card and are ready to do some serious damage. The American style malls, stores, restaurants are not conducive to ol' style learning. Volohzin/Slobodka et al, you were stuck in town and there wasn't much else going on.
Today for a couple of bucks , one can get a set of wheels and then they're off to the races.
Also, what are the girls learning that is critical to our society's well being?

baalbatish said...

Mr. Blogowner.
I think a post about seminaries would be an interesting idea.

Anovim Anovim, Higiya zman said...

Given all the hate the Rebbe manifested toward the Chazon Ish and other gedolei hador who were also vested with ruach hakodesh and were by reasonable accounts--to be charitable--at least his superior (the Rebbe was great as a Rebbe, but he was not even the greatest talmid chochom in Lubavitch)--I think it understandable that some may view him as a clown.

The Chazon Ish and other gedolei Yisroel who the Rebbe voiciferously hated did as much good for klal yisroel as did the Rebbe, and yet he AND his chassidim call them "snags" and say horrible things about them.

There is a massive hate problem in Chabad. And because they consider themselves superior--because of the Rebbe's ethnocentric teachings about his view of Chabad--they cannot understand why these inferior people don't appreciate the so-called good they do for world Jewry. Its a vicious cycle and it can only be healed by honest, soul wrenching probity. Alas, chabad, for all its bombastic pronoucements concerning its greatness, vitues and "pnimius" lacks the ability to see itself for what it is, what it does, and what it has been let to become.

Chabad, stop hating, come back to yiddishkeit. Then, Moshiach (and no, he is not the Rebbe) will come.

R.W. said...

Dear Mr. Anovim Anovim, Higiya zman,
I will not even begin to answer your despicable and disgusting (and that's and understatement) way of speaking.

All I could say is that seem to have allot of hate in yourself.

I'm totally disgusted...

SHMUEL KLEIN said...

To: Anovim Anovim, Higiya zman,

I agree with you that: "It’s a vicious cycle and it can only be healed by honest, soul wrenching probity.

But, I if go and do some research (before you argue) and you will see the rebbe never said ANYTHING against "Shach", he only spoke about the things he is doing.

The rebbe's outlook was, EVERY JEW is good. Only some people are doing bad things.

Again, so if you do some research you'll see, that when the "Bal Hatanya" tried to publish the Tanya, there where MANY people that did not like the idea.

You’re allowed to have your own opinion, but you don’t hate the other person, YOU JUST DON”T AGREE WITH HIS ACTIONS!!!!

Therefore do some DEEP research and then you’ll understand.

Anonymous said...

2 mikra your a fool, the tiferes shlomo from radomsk- who is one if the spines of cjassidus in the peilishe velt, said if you lack emunas tzadikim you are meakev the geuleh. check oonklos and then chck most meforshim, if you want start with kashers torahs shleima

Anonymous said...

Funny you should mention "kashers torahs shleima"

Harav Hagaon M.M Kasher zt"l who compiled the Torah Shleima is a great grandfather of the Chosson under discussion.

And the Kalla isn't 17; she's over 20.

And the wedding was lovely.