Saturday, October 17, 2009

kapote konondrum! (PART 1)


Chaim's Costume Crusade

Often times in Lubavitch the weirdest stares and looks are reserved for those who don't toe the line. Meaning these people look too frum. Guys that go far out the other way blend in OK, even if they disrespect Lubavitch protocol and guidelines. I never understood that. And nobody ever had a good explanation for it. Why is Moridin BaKodesh OK, but not Maalin?! The same goes if you leave the brim of your hat up, because you had put it down on a chair or had it up because of the rain, every person who sees you will tell to put your brim down. Walk in without a shirt or wearing shorts and no socks and nobody sees it. And if you do "notice" it, or Chas VeSholem tell the man about it, you're some species of evil-eyed bores. I guess it's some kind of Hiskashrus thing... But to their credit, where green and tan and sky blue suits were once the norm with some of the old timers or American-born, now Shabbos is Kulo Kodesh, all young men wear Kapotes, almost as religiously as the Hungarians wear shtreimlach, beard or no beard.

At least that's what thought.

Until recently you had very little choice. Most yungeleit went to Hartstein in Boro Park to purchase their shabbos'dige beged. You might have gotten the wool, a simple "Rosh Yeshiva" type frock, - with either covered or uncovered buttons - which may have come with a pair of pants; the $200 polyester that you told yourself was zeyden because maybe Mr. H told you or you convinced yourself, or maybe the real deal, if you had the dough. The "real deal" ( a real silk kapote) comes in two varieties and the prices vary as well. The 400 dollar variety was a very thin silk that looked like a wrung out shmatte after wearing it just once. I think it's the fact that it lacks a stiff lining that allows it to get so creased so quickly. You bought it only if you were limited by budget constraints, or if you knew not better than to buy the cheap one. Those that were always makpid to buy the pure silk often went with this one, for obvious reasons - money. The problem is you always were on the verge of the next one, and the savings you thought you had quickly didn't remain so, since you had to replace the beged more than twice as often as the more expensive alternative.

Then there's the more expensive kapote, the one that fetches $650.00, which often goes to Chassanim only. A chosson usually gets the advice from his friends and convinces his parents to break the banks and the GeMaCHim and buy it for him. (After all, he doesn't get a shtreimel, so let him enjoy one luxury on his wedding day, no? If taken care of the chosson special can last you 4-5 years, which means that you wear for the same time that you would wear 2-3 suits, definitely making it worth the added expense. And when you factor in the fact that you wear this baby all the time, no tish bekitshes in Chabad, remember? (at least not away from the tish) means you wear it Purim, Chol HaMoed, at Mincha Shabbos, and so on. The "Peylishe" get away with wearing tish bekitshes half the time, while wearing shiny polyester the rest of the time, while us, we need to wear that heavy beged all the time...) Which is why I'm on my third "expensive" Kapote as we speak. Mr. Hartstein - tzu lange, gezunte yohren - is a nachas to work with, especially since we speak the same language.

61 comments:

מענדל said...

הירשעלע
איך וויל ניט צונעמען פרנסה ביי אידן אבער הארטשטיין איז ניט דער איינציגער וואס פארקויפט קאפאטעס.
מענדל
נ.ב.
אני הקטן האב געקויפט א זיידענע סירטוק אין דרויסן פון 770 און געצאלט צוויי הונדערט דאלער. צום טיש טראג איך אן אלטן סירטוק, אז דער נייער זאל זיך האלטן לענגער. כמדומני אבער אז רוב אנ"ש טוען אויס דעם סירטוק נאך המוציא ואכמ"ל.
הנ"ל

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

זיכער מיינט איר ואין להאריך בדבר המצער, וד"ל

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

די 770 קאפאטעס האבען - לדעתי - קיין שטיק זיידן קיינמאל נישט אנגעקוקט
וד"ל

Anonymous said...

The Burn Test

Pull out a loose thread from the silk product you're interested in. Now burn it.

What Should Happen
The thread should simply ball up and turn to ash when lit.

The burning silk should smell like burning hair. (Both substances mainly consist of a fibrous protein – fibroin in the case of silk and keratin in the case of hair.)

The ash should be black and crispy/brittle.

As soon as the flame is removed, the thread should do nothing more (no further burning).
My Satmar cousin took me to buy silk material in Willy in the days when in EY there were no ready make silk sirtukim. He too out a match, and discovered that we were takeh getting pure silk.

schneur said...

Since chassidc fashion is one of my favorite subjects(in theory)may I make the following comments:
Although styles change, in White Russia few Chabad people wore silk surduten, and I can not recall seeing someone wear a silk surdut until the 1970's right here in the USA. Silk by definition is easy to crease and has difficulty holding shape.
Most of the chassidic clothing stores that advertise all claim to carry prince alberts or surduten or as you call them sirtuken
Perhaps its applaudable that most Lubavitchers wear Frocks, but on the other hand it sort of lowers the value of the currency.As I said change is inevitable , but one can not but wonder what was going through the Rebbe's mind when he as Chadban wore an ordinary suit at least on week days prior to 1951. If you notice in one of the published letters his father Reb Levik implores him to wear a surdut at the wedding in Warsaw, the logical implication being that there was a hava amina that even at the wedding he was thinking of not wearing a surdut! Obviously the Rebbe saw chitzonius for what it was not a ikkordike thing.I guess in the USA every Charedi needsa uniform a sense of belonging and group identity, but does it mean anything if you wear specific clothing, only in the case of extremis like arkesa demesani.

Mottel said...

-Hirshel: I don't think people get harassed for wearing "frummer" clothes if they look normal - a Lubavitcher with tish bekeshe may get a few stairs - as is a guy with wild Rebbe Nachman peios. I haven't been bothered about leaving my hat up by accident since misivta, if I recall correctly. The only time I have been harassed is when people were worried about me 'going' down - my occasional kasket during a rainy or windy day, and a pair of brown shoes I accidentally ordered (if I recall, a certain prominent blogger named after a domesticated animal told me as much in the comments on my blog.)

The Montreal kapototes do indeed have silk in them, though the color seems to fade from the pretty quickly. My wool kapote is from a Montrealer (I used it for dancing by the chasuna, and now for chol hamoed and vache'dike yamei depagra) seems to be very sturdy. Most chasanim tend today tend to get their Fancy silks by Shem Tov. I for one did it by Primo hatters.

Mottel said...

-Schneur: While I'm not sure to how people acted b'poel, the rebbe did mention using zeydens in the yuds.

Anonymous said...

Do Any Lubavitch wear tishe bekeshes at home?

Mottel said...

-anon: Those that come from such backgrounds. I know that many of Rabbi Hendel's a"h children and einiklach do . . .

Anonymous said...

1) Hartsteins poly is is a "gemeeshteh zeid" (i.e. a "blend") - just that he does not tell you the percentage of each, therefore I'll give them to you now! Polyester: 100%, Silk 0% hence a blend!

2) On a serious note, the Rebbe did say in 5711 that he wanted yungelite to wear zeid although it did not become "popular till the mid lameds (as shneur pointed out). To the extent that a choson asked the Rebbe if he may wear zeid in 5723 out of concern that it may be "mechze keyuhara". The Rebbe said that he may! In the sixties you basically had Reb Shmuel Lew, Reb Mayer Harlig and Reb Avraham Lipskier who wore zeid and maybe a few others.

Y"T Shein

Anonymous said...

With such silly emphasis on something that is found nowhere in the Torah or other sources and yet costs a tremendous amount of money, is it any wonder that 9/10 of Klal Yisroel is no longer religious?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

is it any wonder that 9/10 of Klal Yisroel is no longer religious?

and here I was blaming the Pogroms and the Nazis... silly me!

yehupitz said...

Tzig,

I don't know if silk focus is to blame for 90% of Jews not being observant, but I'm pretty sure that "Nazis and Pogroms" has almost nothing to do with it. Rov Minyan U'Binyan of Klal Yisroel dropped it all long before 1933, or even before the 1880s Pogroms.

L'Guf Hainyan: The inclination of human beings to dress and look like people they revere is an ancient one, and not one to be taken lightly. Focusing on the particulars will often seem silly, but the Klal Godol involved is not silly at all.

Mottel said...

-Anon: Check again, the Rambam writes about wearing longer begadim on shabbos.

מענדל said...

הירשעלע
דעם סירטוק האב איך געגעבן א שניידערקע א גוי'טע צו פארקירצערן די ארבל, זאגט זי מיר דרך אגב אז דאס איז א שיינער זייד. נו האב איך אן עדות פון א גוי א מסיח לפי תומו וואס עפ"י דין איז זי יעמאלט נאמן.
מענדל

schneur said...

Mottel
"going down" wearing a kasket. Thats the problem . Why is wearing a cap like the Chafetz Chaim, Reb Simcha Zelig Riger or R. Mendel Futterfass going down and wearing a fedora like Elliot Ness, Walter Winchel and Clark Kent going up ?Until World war 1 all frum Jews in the Czarist Empire wore kasketen and that certainly includes all Anash and the Rebbes themselves since the Maharash. Rachal told me exactly what sort of kasket the rashab and rayaatz wore in Lubavitch and michutz leir both as Rebbe and Pretender to throne.
Isn't it time that we stopped being sheep and at least tried to be authentic. Believe me some people should wear snap brim hats others who feel a need to tie in their avoes should wear kasketen still others, other sort of hats.
I will admit that I am guilty of this too as I wear a regular hat on Shabbes , but I would much prefer to wear a kasket I bought several years ago that looks very like the sort we wore in Russia but peer pressure "prevents' this.

yoshe kalb said...

Tzig, you are probably too young to remember, but there were the real silk kapotas made by Hansen of the Lower East Side. They were practically indistructible and extremely heavy, making you feel like wearing an armour.
BTW wearing silk garments has a long tradition. One of the reasons being that real silk doesn't contain shatnes. Another reason I heard, was to use material originating from an unclean source ( silk worm ) for kedushah purposes.
I know quite a lot of yungeleit who wear tish beketches at home. May wearing chassidishe levush be our biggeat aveiroh!

The Bray of Fundie said...

Did I inspire this post?

Anonymous said...

Hartstein is the best. When I go into other stores in BP, they tend to be unfriendly and sometimes a bit pushy. Hartstein on the other hand always has a smile and pleasant words to say.

schneur said...

As a teen I recall a mens store in CH called 3 JJJ or something like that .(Kingston and Eastern) I believe it sold surduten.Did a Shemtov manage it ?
There was also a tailor Mr. Hanse ? Did he move to Kew Garden Hills ? who made many kapotes for all sorts of gedolim (Rav Aren, Kapishnitzer etc etc) including I believe Adash.In an interview in PAKN TREGER he claimed he had all his index cards with the measurements of various gedolim. I saw his work and its not bad, I still find it hard to believe that zaidens can hold without a solid "untershlack" but I am not a schneider or what they called a kasher schneider.Is Frankfurter's still around ? Did they sell Prince Alberts ?

The Bray of Fundie said...

I ask because I've gotten about 30 page loads for my "Lost in this Masquerade" post with this listed as the referring website.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

BOF

obviously!

I even have the link posted here

The Bray of Fundie said...

May wearing chassidishe levush be our biggeat aveiroh!


I think that a better vintsch might be; "May wearing chassidishe levush be our smallest easiest mitzvah! NOT our greatest and/or self-congratulatory final one!"

It's far easier for a chameleon to change it's colors or even a leapord change it's spots than to alter, modify or refine even one midah.

schneur said...

Yoshe kalb:
See teshuva of Chasam Sofer about zaidenns and other chassidic minhogim.
In many kehillas the baal tefilla had to wear zaidenns as they were worried about Tzemer and shaatnez.
I wonder if Lubavitz worried about this even in White Russia ? Tish chalat - many people put on a smoking or night robe at lunch not to get their Shabbes clothes dirty.
I heard from 1 Lubavitzer that the rebbe himself had some sort of house robe in the early years that he wors at home. One still ses picture s of men like Rabbis Shteinman and lipkowitz(Lithuanian jews) wearing pashute house robes yes around the house. these things cost 35 dollars compared to the cheapest chassidic style at twice that price.

The Bray of Fundie said...

forgive me. I totally missed the caption under the picture and as you neither commented on my post nor adressed the questions criticsm's it raised in this one I was mystified.

Well thanks a lot for th elink. kein yirbu before my blog is stillborn.

I will say this.

1.You're reach is amazing. I was getting looks from counries I never knew existed LOL. Another amazing proof of the ubiquitousness of Chabad Houses

2. My post was apparently boring or offensive to the Chabad oilem as in spite of all the looks most were for 0 seconds and I didn't get a singlr new comment!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe they need to get to know you better?

The Bray of Fundie said...

bevakasha...lead by example and drop a comment once in a while.

Pretty please?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

will do, be"H.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

מענדל

ווי איז מעגליך אז פאר 200 דאלאר קען מען פארקויפן אן עכט זיידענע סירטוק?
עס קוקט דאך אויס שרעקליך

The Bray of Fundie said...

as for your thsesis that the fellows with the brims up get more severe stairs than the guys in jeans I'll take your word for it and I find it to be a good sevara.

Nothing about the jeans wearer says "I'm above you, more perfected than you". OTOH those who affect a more pious attire/ hairstyle than the tzibur tha tthey are m'kloimish, part of are transgressing the sins of יוהרא, גאוה וישות and we know that once these מדות נשחתות become איינגעווארצעלט then they are בבחינת כל באיה לא ישובון.

hence the up-brimmers are met with much consternation, finger-wagging and /or tongue -clucking.

Anonymous said...

I noticed this about the frum-looking getting more stares. Even though I'm not a Lubavitcher I go to 770 fairly often for a non-anash. Depending on the day, what I'm doing that day, weather, etc I look either like a Lakewood yungerman, a yuppie or an Arab truck driver. No one says boo on the 'truck driver' days. On the 'yungerman' days I sometimes get funny looks.

Mottel said...

-Schneur: The problem isn't that the kasket is a yeridah, but people take oddly to things that 'stand out' as a statement. Russian bochurim and those that have spent time in Eastern Europe (my self included) tend to be respected for their actions - it's those that do things to make a 'statement' that get the looks . . .

yoshe kalb said...

schneur: I think surdut is the correct name for Lubavitcher kapotes. It's probably derived from the French "surtout", meaning a long overcoat in 19th century style.
"Surduten" were introduced as an alternative in the wake of the czarist geseiroh against wearing distinctive Jewish clothing ( shtreimlach, kapotas, breeches with white socks etc ). What I don't understand is, why we still follow the czarskoye ukas ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the same reason the Polishe Chassidim wear Spodiks!

Mottel said...

-Yoshe Kalb: The Lubavitcher Kapote looks exactly like the Prince Albert frock to me . . .

Anonymous said...

In the Hiechel Habesht there was a nice informative article ny Harav Matuson on the chasidic tradition of Bigdie Meshi he quotes the Rebbe Reshab regarding the minhag, there arent too many chasidic sources on that minhag, I think the Komarner also writes about it but not too many more

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Frankfurters SIL is still around for suits only, his son is the US editor of the Mishpacha he interviewed the KJ satmar Rebbe and Krinsky

Anonymous said...

Mottel: two differences. First, a prince albert does not button recht oif linx. Second, the goyishe prince albert was always either wool or shatnez.

מענדל said...

הירשעלע
כמדומני אז דאס איז די איבערגעבליבענע סחורה צום סוף יאר, און דער חילוק פון דער אמעריקאנער און קאנאדער דאלער וד"ל. דא"ג עס איז דארט פאראן צויי סוחרים פון מאנטריאל און איינער האט בעסערע סחורה פון צוייטן.
מענדל

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

מענדל

כ'ווייס ניט
מיר קוקט עס אויס ווי א שטיק בלעך
ס'גלאנצט אזוי גלייך פון אנהייב, און ס'נישט שווארץ, ס'איז אזא גרויע קאליר

yoshe kalb said...

הירשל, דריי נישט קיין ספאדיק

Mottel said...

The Right over left a uniquely Yiddishe thing on men - by the goyim its reserved for women's clothes. The material is entirely subjective - according to shneur who had zaydens, so how different would it be.

schneur said...

The correct name as I have written many times on various blogs is surdut. Surduten is the plural in YIddish.
In Israel they are also called frocks, and Prince Alberts , although there may be some minor distinctions with the goyishe begged (no rounded corner etc).
My late father also called it generically a kapote although when I questioned him he said that was an old fashioned long coat -loose fitting and down to the feet that some Chabad people still wore in Kurenitz in the 1930's. The peylishe style he called a zupitche. Surtuk and sirtuk is to the best of my knowledge a Russian or Ukrainian version of the word surdut.
Chaim Grade and Reb Zalman Duchman both used surdut in theior writings.. Although if the Rebbe used sirtuk - (kvar hore zaken) it obviously is a legitimate term.

schneur said...

A while ago I helped the editor of Business WEek Tony Bianco with his book about the Reichmann family (by th way the long section of the book about the Reichmanns background is a very good read and I urge anyone interested to look at it , NO I get no royalties). We spent hours talking about charedim, Hungary and the Oberlander traditions. I mentione to him right over left and he smiled and said that gigalos (sic) in Italy also wear right over left. Oy vay the company we keep !!

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
what was the levush of other Chasidim in White Russia,Lita as the Slonimer,Koidenever, and karliner, were they more into Levush as Ziedens? did the chasidim wear shtrimels?

Mottel said...

-Shneur: I've always understood Sirtuk to be the term Israeli's use over the word Kapote favored by the Anglophone community.

eli dishone said...

magan avrohom form trisker magid says that silk is for anova because it comes from a worm not to be haughty with a nice begad

PSOL said...

the Rambam writes about wearing longer begadim on shabbos.

The Rambam also says women should wear a burka. See many of those around Crown Heights?

Anonymous said...

I have no real idea how other Chassidim dressed. No on except the rebbes wore shtreimlich. There are pictures of Skverer wearing kasketen. I presume most of the otehr Russian chassidim dressed LIKE Lubavitch. Perhaps the Ukranians did not wear a gehakte kapote.
Reb Moshe Midner a legend among Slonimer I was told wore a short coat.
Many Slonimer lived in Lodz (Lodz a Polsih city had tens of thousands of litvishe imigrants - maybe over 100,000 Jews among them the Rav Rav Meizel and rav Zalman Schneersohn Hayad) and may ahve adopted the local garb.

schneur said...

Can anyone enlighten me about GAN ISRAEL CHEDER in BP ? Who runs it ? Who are the students, themelamdim , the goals etc. Thanks

Mottel said...

PSOL: No, but in Beit Shemesh you do.

מענדל said...

פסאל
א לענגערע לבוש אויף שבת ווערט דערמאנט אין גמרא.
הירשעלע
על טעם וריח אין להתוכח
מענדל

yehupitz said...

Kesones Pasim, ayin shom in Shmuel Beis. There is a direct correlation between nobility and long garments. Activities involving manual labor and shlepping require short garments, rolled up sleeves, lifted hems etc.

Wearing long garments is a sign that one is not involved in gashmius work but is involved in activities of the mind and soul.

Anonymous said...

"the Rambam writes about wearing longer begadim on shabbos."

Where?

Mottel said...

-anon: Hilchos Shabbos 30:3

shimon said...

Mottel,

ג ומכבוד השבת, שילבוש כסות נקייה. ולא יהיה מלבוש החול, כמלבוש השבת; ואם אין לו להחליף, משלשל טליתו כדי שלא יהא מלבושו כמלבוש החול. ועזרא תיקן שיהו העם מכבסים בחמישי, מפני כבוד השבת.

Help me out here...

Mottel said...

מגיד משנה:
ומכבוד השבת וכו'. פרק אלו קשרים (דף קי"ג) וכבדתו שלא יהא מלבושך של שבת כמלבושך של חול אמר רב הונא יש לו להחליף יחליף אין לו להחליף ישלשל בבגדו ופרש"י ז"ל ישלשל כלפי מטה שיראו ארוכין

shimon said...

Thank you. Seems to me more like Rashi than Rambam. But I see your point.

Too bad you (or Magid Mishne...) didn't quote the full Rashi there, you would get a whole brownie. ;-)

Milhouse said...

There's a bit of a misunderstanding about משלשל טליתו. It does not imply that there is something better about longer clothes in general. Rather, it refers to a common practise in Rome, of poor workmen who could only afford one garment, and had to wear it both while at work and at leisure, buying a long one and hiking it up while at work. Thus, when Shabbos comes such a person must remember to let his garment down in order to signify that he is not at work and not available for work. It doesn't mean that those who can afford special Shabbos clothes should make them longer than their weekday ones.

Anonymous said...

Shneur

Gan Yisroel goal to teach toras hashem as much as Skwer BP ,NS,Bobov48,45,Belz,Moshlou...
whats the question bichlal

Anonymous said...

Millhouse
in the AR (265-3)it seems that the rich afforded to go dressed with long clothing since he didn't work manually so his cloths didn't become dirty,and shabos you have to portray yourself as the Midas Ashirim