Tuesday, March 9, 2010

א מעשה מיט א הונגער



All this talk about Rav Elyashiv and the Jerusalem Kano'im got some of the readers going here, despite me not being here as often as I should and used to. Somehow the legend of Reb Hirsh Peysakh and the death of two children of famine/malnutrition was brought up again, to prove that he was a kano'i after all, despite him being a long time member of the Rabbanut HaRashit. One reader told me privately that RHPF somehow managed to avoid the wrath of the zealots and is OK in all circles today, despite his associations. It's as if after RAYHK there was no more room in the evil category for RHP, so had no choice but to accept him. I guess the fact that he wasn't buddy-buddy with all the big frei knakkers in Israel also helps, but that shouldn't have absolved him completely, not as far as zealots are concerned. I would imagine there are still those in Israel who would not step foot in Har Tzvi on Rechov Tzefania, but we can count those people on our fingers and toes. There's no gasp of the crowd were his name be mentioned by a Darshan like it would be if RAYHK's name was brought up.



So there. Another reader, a very proud non-Lubavitcher, sent me the link to the above page. I remember referencing the sefer a while back, maybe 2 years ago, but I'm not sure if it was the same letter and I can't be bothered searching the blog to see if it was. In any case, it seems like nothing's new as far as good ol' fashioned politics - it was then as it is now. The Hungarians were the cause of all the trouble then, and some would argue that the same could be said for today's day and age, both in Israel and in the Diaspora. They were the ones that made the most noise then and put RAYHK in the dustbin of history for most Haredim. I know, I'm a self-hating Hungarian, but so what? We all have that in us a little bit. So why did I choose the picture to illustrate my point, you ask? Well, if you look closely you can see that the headline is bogus. The picture is real, and so is the paper, maybe, anyway, but the story never happened. So too, BeNiden Didan, the characters are true, but the story we were fed - myself included, I heard that story in Spinka from the kanoyim there - may not be. Add to that the fact that I was sent this picture by a very faithful reader today, the SAME day as the letter posted here, and I could not resist posting it.

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

Rav Kook is not realy in the history dustbin, he is constantly being used as a metaphor for a Shagetz that said great Shalash Seudau Torah,Recently I heard it from 2 rabonim in Monroe using it against their own Satmar Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

where is the top picture from?

Anonymous said...

I beg you to portray the active and successful Knooes of the rebbe being on the forefront of the Mihu Yehudi Campaign give us an update through which shluchim its advanced today in Israel US Europe elaborate on the Chafer Hungarian link and why he is not involved in it now

Anonymous said...

Am I to understand the following?

That R' Kook was supposed to Rov of all J'lem, but the "Hungarians" , in their self-interest in grabbing Tzedaka money for themselves, appointed RYCZ?
Was he an old, incapable man at the time or wasn't he?

I know there was long-standing friction about the Chaluka, it leads me to believe that if they all had Parnosoh , or at least some of them, things would have been less morally corrosive, for their generation, and future ones as well.

Please, some historical context, people, dates, etc. are needed here.

And if the "Hungarians" of J'lem did so, does this reflect on all Hungarian Jews, wherever and whenever they were? Oiberlender, Unterlender, Chasidim, Neologues, anybody with a fraction of Hungarian Jewish blood, those who were Oileh Al HaMoikdeh included?

I suspect this is not serious, just an attempt to stir things up.

HT, if you start to hate yourself less (I'm talking about being a self-hating Hungarian) , you'll be MeMaher Es Ha'Ketz. Plus, think of your poor kids. Hungarian is a psul Le'Doros, never goes away. Many generations of learning Mamorim doesn't kasher it.

Shmuel Kohen said...

RAYHK is making a real come back in many scholarly circles unbeknownst to many.
I've spoken to prominent Rabbunim about their opinion on this issue and their reaction was that we were mislead.

Anonymous said...

Also, can you provide some focus on RAYHK's influence on RY Hutner, and the subsequent cover-up. This might have been already discussed on this site, but still is YeKorim MiPninim every time it is brought up.

shelo asani chareidi said...

Consider it brought up. Can anyone tell the olam anything about the infamous "missing haskama" from Rav Kook?

Anonymous said...

the reason for us to hate Kook is for the same reason the torah gives for Amolak Asher Korch Baderech its irrelevant what happened afterwards he showed the way to be friends with those who shmatd thousands of Jews the rest followed in his foot steps

Anonymous said...

Anon said ,"Recently I heard it from 2 rabonim in Monroe using it against their own Satmar Rebbe."
++recently i heard two rabbonim in crown heights that the previous 2 lubavicher rebbes were phonies

Anonymous said...

is ittrue that ryhk convinced ryys to drop the anti zionist rhetoric that was prevalent by rshab ?

Anonymous said...

Anon
Rabonim In CH? really? do you have a tape?

Anonymous said...

Anon
How come Satmar rov called him Rav Kook in his teshuvahs, and you don"t give him the title Rav?

The facts on Rav Kook are facts or your emotions?

Anti-Amolek said...

Anonymous imbecile of 5.20pm - I suppose that is why the Chofets Chaim, R. Chaim Ozer, R. Issar Zalman, R. Shlomoh Zalman, the Chazon Ish, and ybl"ch R. Eliyashuv, and innumerable others, regard as a gaon and tzadik. I suppose that makes all of them at least abizrayo of Amolek. Very nice. You have revealed who is the real amolek, so you better watch your back as mechiyas amolek is still a mitzvah de'oraysso.

An Ailemesher said...

Who is הגער הזקן?

Anonymous said...

I willl also Point out thay Rav Shliome Zalman Rebbe was Rav Kook he used to watch him learn through the keyhole

Isaac Balbin said...

The missing haskoma may well be the revised version of R' Shlomo Zalman's sefer on Shmita?

Anyway, some tidbits from the net

Rav Aharon HaKohen, the son-in-law of the Chofetz Chaim, wrote the following in 1928:
My father-in-law very much esteemed and loved [“HaMokir U’Mechaveiv M’od”] Rav Kook, and his soul was very pained [“Da’avah M’od”] when he heard about those who sought to persecute him [“Odos HaRedifos Alav”].
From Igros LaRAYaH, #30

When Ha-Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld ascended on high, Maran Ha-Rav Kook wanted to attend the funeral, but R' Tzvi Yehuda forcefully prevented him, saying that he would lay down in front of the wheels of the vehicle and stop him from going out of a fear that the zealots would attack him (Ha-Rav Avraham Shapira quoted in Imrei Shefer of Rav Yitzchak Dadon p. 261. And there were actual cases that zealots physically attacked Maran Ha-Rav at several funerals. ibid.).

The Netziv – Rosh Yeshiva of the Volozhin Yeshiva - said about Maran Ha-Rav Kook: "He is equal to everyone else [in the Volozhin Yeshiva]", "There was never a student like this in Volozhin" and "If the Volozhin Yeshiva was established only for this great student – it would have been enough." Ha-Rav Reuven Bengis – Av Beit Din of the Edah Charedit – similarly said that the most important [student] in the Yeshiva is the son-in-law of the Rav of Ponevezh (Ha-Rav Eliyahu David Rabinowitz-Te'omim, Ha-Aderet – Maran Ha-Rav Kook's father-in-law).
[Tal Ha-Re'eiyah pp. 59-60, Shivchei Ha-Re'eiyah p. 45 and Be-Derech Ha-Torah Ha-Goelet p. 189]

When the Chazon Ish left Vilna to make aliyah, Rav Chaim Ozer sent a letter to Rav Kook requesting his assistance. He began the letter: "The Glory of Honor, My Dear Friend, Ha-Rav Ha-Gaon, Ha-Gadol, the Famous One… The Prince of Torah, Our Teacher, Ha-Rav Avraham Yitzchak Ha-Cohain Kook Shlit"a…"
[Bisdeh Ha-Re'eiyah p. 236, Chayei Ha-Re'eiyah pp. 388-389, Igrot Le-Re'eiyah #316 and Melachim Kivnei Adam pp. 106-107. Maran Ha-Rav's response is found in Shut Da'at Cohain #223]

Isaac Balbin said...

In the eulogy which Ha-Rav Meltzer delivered for Maran Ha-Rav in the Churva Synagogue in the Old City of Jerusalem, he said: "The True Torah was in his mouth" and "With the passing of Ha-Rav – the spine of Klal Yisrael is broken."
[Moadei Ha-Re'eiyah vol. 12, Le-Shelosha Be-Elul vol 2 p. 101, Shivchei Ha-Re'eiyah p. 15, Bisadeh Ha-Re'eiyah vol. 275 and Malachim Kivnei Adam p. 430]

The Brisker Rav wrote to Maran Ha-Rav Kook requesting help for a yeshiva student beginning with these words: "Great blessing for the honor of Ha-Rav Ha-Gaon, Ha-Gadol, the Famous One, the Glory of the Generation… The Prince of Torah, Our Teacher, Ha-Rav R' Avraham Yitzchak Ha-Cohain Shlit"a Kook. The Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem…" And Ha-Griz ended the letter: "I conclude with a blessing for all goodness for the glory of his genius Shlit"a, I respect and cherish the exalted nature of the glory of his genius with all feelings of respect and value."

Ha-Rav Yosha Ber (Ha-Rav Berel Soloveitchik), Ha-Griz's son and Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Brisk following his father, once spoke harshly against Zionism. He was asked: And what about Ha-Rav Kook? He answered: "He is a Gadol." (from Ha-Rav Zalman Baruch Melamed).
[Ha-Rav Eliezer Melamed in the article "Ha-Rav Kook and Beit Brisk" which appeared in the newspaper "Be-Sheva" 5767 and Igrot Le-Re'eiyah #373]

Ha-Rav Shabatai Rapaport, Ha-Rav Feinstein's grandson, related that in the year 5739, during Sukkot in Monsey, NY, Ha-Rav Feinstein was involved with writing a contrary view to a responsa of Ha-Rav Eliezer Waldenberg (Tzitz Eliezer). Ha-Rav Rapaport showed his grandfather a statement from Maran Ha-Rav Kook (relating to the issue) which Ha-Rav Rapaport found amazing. Ha-Rav Feinstein responded: "What is surprising, he was the Gaon of Geonim!"
[Likutei Ha-Re'eiyah p. 59]

Maran Ha-Rav's picture hung together with pictures of other Gedolei Yisrael in Ha-Rav Auerbach's sukkah.
[The booklet "Or Shlomo" p. 28]

Ha-Rav S.Z. Auerbach said: If I say to you 'Maran' in Yiddish [Der Rov – Ha-Rav], know that I am referring to Ha-Rav Kook zt"l. I only use the term 'Der Rov', Maran, for Ha-Rav Kook.
[Sefer Rabbenu ibid. and the booklet "Or Shlomo" p. 24 and see note 34 where various testimonies to this fact are quoted]

Ha-Rav Yosef Buxbaum, the director of the journal "Moriah” and student of Ha-Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach related:
It once happened that one of the editors of the "Otzar Mefarshei Ha-Talmud" (Treasury of Talmudic Commentators) included a ruling of Maran Ha-Rav Kook, but another editor removed it. I asked him why he removed the ruling: was it because he raised a difficultly with it and it required further study? He answered: "I didn't even look into the issue. I just think that a ruling of Ha-Rav Kook is not appropriate for 'Otzar Mefarsehi Ha-Talmud.'" I said to him: "From this moment, you are fired!" The editor did not accept his decision, and they went to Ha-Gaon Ha-Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv. Ha-Rav Elyashiv was shocked and said to the editor: "Did you know Ha-Rav Kook?! You should know – he was holy. He did not belong to our generation, and in his generation, they did not properly understand him. Reb Yosef was certainly permitted to fire you. I would have done the same thing."
[Weekly parashah sheet "Shevet Ha-Re'eiyah #31 and #50]

Anonymous said...

And Just to make myself feel better: a plug for the Har Tzvi Sefer AL Hatorah That just came out,Also in alot of Shailos U'teshouvous when it says Tzaddik Echad it is refereeing to Reb Kook and his relationship with the Gerrer is also well known the Gerrer in A letter wrote something along the lines of "Peh Maleh Margolias AVAL Ahvasah Lertz Yisroel Goram Laveirah"

Anonymous said...

And Just to make myself feel better: a plug for the Har Tzvi Sefer AL Hatorah That just came out,Also in alot of Shailos U'teshouvous when it says Tzaddik Echad it is refereeing to Reb Kook and his relationship with the Gerrer is also well known the Gerrer in A letter wrote something along the lines of "Peh Maleh Margolias AVAL Ahvasah Lertz Yisroel Goram Laveirah"

Anonymous said...

The Chazon Ish asked him a shalha in halacha on Mitzvas Hatliyas Beoretz,and gave him the title Kevoid Maran,the copy of the manuscript is available for all to see.

H I B O D L I said...

The crux of the issue is can you collaborate with someone who has a an agenda or goal different then the Torah with out:
A) Being influenced that a compromise is not bad, B)Compromising
C)Fighting or degrading those who advocate that the Torah should not be compromised.
Torah dictates in general that that the Frame of Mind of any Collaborator is past the stage of A then automatically you go to stage B and C , it is in the Human Nature to assimilate into the environment you chose.
Resisting the influence of non Torahdiga environment (an individuals daily temptation)is not Hungarian but overthere the chasam sofer's influence prevailed not to collaborate at an organizational level with those who had a non Torahdiga agenda.
All of the people who think good of Koook ,Goren, Schnierson think that in this or that instant Stage A B and C don't apply, but you will see they will apply these Stages randomly when it serves them well,but in the end does who don"t stop collaboration is assimilation Because
H I B O D L I always Prevails

Anonymous said...

Hibodli
Please don't confuse history as certain people intentionally like to do,the Chasam Sofer didn't make the famous Tielung in Hungary, and his Son and the Mharam Shick didn't do it neither, It was done by the Rav of Siks Rav Lichtenstien and forced upon them as you can see in the great book Hakera Sheloi Nisache from Prof. Katz, Obviously you will scream Katz is not trustworthy since he is a apikores. But the letters of that era in his book are authentic and nobody claimed yet differently, Its a important book for whoever wants to see the truth on that matter.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr.Hibodli,
Was their more assimilation in Poland and Russia then Hungary? the opposite is the truth, the Tielung worked for a little fringe and the rest of the Klal Yisroel was thrown to the dogs,You have no idea what you are talking about.
Isreal with all its fallacies is the biggest buffer-zone for assimilation since the Churban Habais say whatever you want,plus it is the biggest Mokam Torah since Matan torah, You can curse Rav Kook Z"l in your basement in Monroe till Dem Vaisen Tog Arien but the Emes is Prevailing,
My friend, can you tell what the Holy Baal Veyoel Moshe did to stem the assimilation of the Millions of the Jews in the USA? he lived across the Red Shul on Bedford ave, How many Jews from that shul did he save from assimilation, I think and I know Zilch, Nada, Besides Shtrimels and Reshvolke the Holy of the Holiest didn"t do Zilch Nada

Not Brisk said...

I believe the Gerrer said אהבת ארץ ישראל בוערת בלבו ( בקרבו?) ומעבירו כנגד דעתו ודעת קונו.

For the record, Reb Yoilesh doesn't call him "Rav" and writes things like דרך קשתו כאויב, and איש צר ואויב. I think it is in a letter written to R' Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld printed in the Michtavim (I am sure there is a lot more)

Anonymous said...

Not Brisk
did you see the Kuntres Shulesh Teshuves printed in the 60's?

Anonymous said...

Chazon ish once attended a she'ur of Rav Kuk, and remained standing throughout. When asked to sit down, he said :"The Torah (i.e. Rav Kuk) is standing and I should sit?" Vedal.

Not Satmar said...

A Satmar yingerman told me that the Minchas Yitzchok is suspect because he quotes RHPF.

Anonymous said...

anon Wrote ""Isreal with all its fallacies is the biggest buffer-zone for assimilation since the Churban Habais""
why because they register goyim as jews

Anonymous said...

Not satmar
he calls him the in the teshuvas Rabo Shel Yerushaliem, obviously its all before he was inducted in the Kanoim brigade in Meah Sheorim by Shtemer and Shienberger

Not Brisk said...

Anon,

You got the facts wrong. It was not for himself (he went to Israel years after Rav Kook passed away).

Reb Chaim HaQoton said...

By the way, I have personally seen Rav Nechemya Kaplan (son-in-law of R' Dovid HaLevi ben Maran HaGriz) walk into the Har Tzvi shul in Tzephania, and he's a Brisker Kanoi and still walks in there...

Anonymous said...

Not Brisk
What were the Letters for?
I saw them 20 years ago

An Ailemesher said...

All these knowledgeable people and no one can say who הנער הזקן is in the posted teshuva?

Anonymous said...

maybe he means Rav Zonenfeld

Isaac Balbin said...

NB: I believe the Gerrer said אהבת ארץ ישראל בוערת בלבו ( בקרבו?) ומעבירו כנגד דעתו ודעת קונו.

Yes, and perhaps you can also tell us how the Gerrer Rebbe was inconsolable when R' Kook was niftar?

R' Kook knew what to answer the Gerrer Rebbe in the same way that he knew what to answer the Rayatz.

He loved them and they loved him.

Neither agreed with his derech, but that's hardly a unique thing.

What's different though is that neither would let their Chasidim act in the disgraceful manner that the Hungarians acted/act towards R' Kook. Nor would other universally respected figures such as the Chafetz Chaim, R' Isser Zalman, R' Chaim Ozer, Chazon Ish, R' Moshe, R' Shlomo Zalman etc allow the revisionism and the disgraceful chilul shem shomayim that is proffered using Rav Kook's name to go unanswered.

People can't take it that R' Kook was a Gaon ShebeGaonim and as Erlich as any Gadol but had a unique derech. In a similar way, they can't take it the the Rav was a Gaon ShebeGaonim and as Erlich as any Gadol but had a unique derech. Both were bigger in Tzidkus than even their Lomdus.

The emesdike types, those who say דרכיה דרכי נועם and understand it despite the background of הלא משנאיך ה' אשנה can agree to disagree where appropriate.

Those whose flower use אהבה as their nutrient and those who seem to grow like weeds are nurtured by שנאה.

Geula is linked to flowering, not an uncontrolled expanse of weeds

Not Brisk said...

Anon, don't remember, sorry. (I also saw them a long time ago)

another talmid said...

אייזיק א דאנק פארן פאריכטן דער רושם פון די ערשטע ענטפער
IS THERE A BETTER WORD FOR COMMENT?
צו באמערקן אז אין ליובאוויטש (און מסתמא אין אלע חסידות'ן - אונגארן איז הינטערשטעליק אין דעם) האט מען געוואוסט ווי צו חולק זיין אין גאנצן אויףן שיטה אדער א פרט אין שיטה און טראץ דעם ערן דעם מענטש אליין
ווי דער רבי האט גערעדט געגן 'התקופה הגדולה' אז עס איז נאך ניט געווען א ספר וואס איז געהאט געשריבן אזוי פיל כפירה
(הירשל - דאס זענען די ווערטער פונקט)
און גלייך נאך דעם געשיקט HORAV כשר א גרוס ברבים!!
לגבי הגרא"י קוק
טראץ דעם אלעס האט מען חולק געווען אויף עם נאך פאר זיין רבנות אין יפו
דער רבי (רש"ב) נ"ע האט געבעטן ר מענדל צו ר חיים נאה זאל זיין רב אין יפו אבער ס'איז ליידער ניט געלונגען
און ווי יעדער וואס זוכט די אמת ווייס איז ער געווארן רב אין ירושלים שפעטער ביי כמעט אלע ערליכע אידן
אפילו רוב שטיצערס פון ר' יוסף חיים האבן ניט געהאלט מיט ר' עמרם בלוי און מנחם פרוש פון יענע טעג
If the regular commenters e.g. R Isaac balbin etc (shneur - im not choshed) dont understand אידיש I would translate but it's more pleasant (translate geshmaker?) to write אידיש

another talmid said...

anon 12:34 אויף וויפל איך ווייס ביסטו גערעכט אז ר' יוסף חיים איז געווען בעיקר ווייל די אונגארישע האבן אים געשטופט (געגן זיין וועלן און פארשטאנד) אבער הגם מ'זאגט FOLLOW THE MONEY איז שווער צו זאגן דאס איז נאר געווען איבער חלוקה
מאכסט אפ אמת'ע חלוקי דעות
ניט אלץ איז געלט
דאס קאן שניאור בעסער ערקלערן מסתמא

Anonymous said...

Another talmid
"ווי דער רבי האט גערעדט געגן 'התקופה הגדולה' אז עס איז נאך ניט געווען א ספר וואס איז געהאט געשריבן אזוי פיל כפירה"
the Rebbe was against the Idea of Atchalta Degula since its against the Rambams serialization of Yemois Hamoshiach(BTW, the Moshiachist are according the Rebbe as bad) which non of the rishonim differ with the Rambam,But when did you hear these words on the sefer??? The Rebbe quotes his works non stop in the Sichos, The Sakmer Rov used the Torah Shliema too