Sunday, March 21, 2010

אבי נישט ווי די חסידים


The Rav, Reb Aron Soloveitchik and others at the Streits's bakery. RAS was the Rav HaMachshir there for many years, a position I believe his son inherited from him. Reb Aron's the one with the white coat and big smile, sans beard and peyos of later years. I wonder why he chose the peyos look and his older brother didn't...


The ad you see here was published in last week's 5Towns Jewish Times which I picked up for free at a box in Boro Park on Monday after taking the train to the DMV in Brighton Beach because of a suspended driver's license I got for not paying a naarishe ticket for "Improper Cellphone Use." I wasted half a day there because I didn't know I could just walk up to the Traffic Violations Bureau instead of waiting on that long line for a ticket, waiting for your number to be called, and then be told to go to the TVB line at the back of the building... But wait, there's more! The woman told me to go to the line and just pay it, but you can't JUST pay a ticket either. You need to plead guilty on the ticket and then go to the judge in one of the rooms. You can still pay the suspension fine, post a 40 dollar cash bond, plead not guilty, have a hearing and come back another time, but who wants to do that? Especially if you wasted half a day already! You hand the clerk the ticket, she enters it in the system, the judge calls you and asks you how you plead, you tell him guilty, he tells you how much and you need to go back to line 2, which is the "after-hearing line," where you pay the ticket. I almost had a heart attack when they told me that they could not read my credit card, but I found another one with some cash left on it...

In any case - now that you know that we can get to the issue at hand. In a way this one's for Not Brisk... I know this isn't the point of the picture, but rather the Streit's company and some advertising firm was behind this, but still, the idea behind it stands. The idea of chas vesholom not doing anything extra, even at a time like the Pesach sedorim, ticks off even understanding people like myself, even if the ones that don't do it are great scholars. You'll excuse me if I go out on a limb here, but this seems like the classic Litvishe derech of knowing exactly what to do and never needing to go the extra mile for Torah. They always know what G-d wants by just sticking to the book. Cold. I know what you're saying, how Shulchan Aruch is all that's needed and how kol hamosif gorea, yet we pick and choose when and how to do it. But there always the idea when it came to pesach that we do more than is expected - it's tradition, as Tevye would say. Streit's is mighty fine matzoh, I'm sure, but it seems to me to be a b'dieved, not something that a manhig of a large tzibbur of yidden who look up to him should be using for the sedorim, if that was the case.

Which is why the title of this thread is what it is. It seems to me that there are multitudes of Jews that make sure never to G-d forbid do anything like the chassidim, the frummies, do. Never drink or eat cholov yisroel, never wear a sheitel, wear a colorful tallis and make sure never to cover your head with it, wear a ring and no yarmulke at work, and never, never, never eat hand matzoh, even if it kills you not to. Oh, and make sure not to pay more than 40 bucks for a set of daled minim. They have good excuses, never mind. The sheitel looks much better than your own hair, so they're actually more tzanuah than you with her uncovered head. In Germany they didn't wear yarmulkes to work etc., In the 30s through the 60s all frum Jews went mixed swimming, there was no cholov yisroel when he was growing up, so why should he be a hypocrite or better than his father, and the list goes on. The same with the matzoh; machines do a much better job they say, and despite the 25,000 Pesach vacations they have no money to pay 20+ dollars a pound for matzoh to those darned frummies anyway... It would be OK if the masses did it, but to see a man of that stature do it irks me, I'm sorry to say.

63 comments:

Hippogirl said...

doing the bare minimum of yiddishkeit already requires lots of mesirus nefesh, so maybe dont be so hard on people?

מול העינם said...

I'm sorry but you're way out of line over here. Many Kehillos were makpid to only use machine matza. (The Perushim come to mind)
Morever no one was moser nefash for Yiddsihkeit more than Rav Aaron TZatZal. He was a gadol that never did was convinient which placed him beyond the pale of the establishment on both sides of the fence.
In the 1950's (a time when most Gedolim held there was no chodosh problem in America, as grain was kept in silos for long period of time prio to detente and the mass exports to the Soviet Union) Rav Aaron ate those same Streits Matzahs and nothing else for most of the year.
He was makpid on Cholov Yisroel in early 60's Chicago, which was almost unheard of.
I don't understand how a Lubavitcher Chassid could write anything that has the slightest implication of an insult to Rav Aaron. Your Rebbe would be ashamed of you.
(And please don't tell me you only meant MO rabbis and Ballei Batim) I don't buy it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I meant Reb Yoshe Ber, not Reb Aron...

donny said...

Interesting to note that almost all the big donors to Lubavitch are those that allegedly "skimp" on doing mitzvos behidur cuz of money.They don't eat machine shmireh meshaas ketzireh, yes Hersheys, no cholov yisroel.
So go ahead and bite the hand that feeds you!!!!

(hardly seen any of those "machmir" types be the big givers)

מול העינם said...

The fact that to you a normal yid won't touch chalav akum but doesn't care about chodosh, davens "whenever" doesn't sleep in a sukkah, and sells his machine matza with the chometz doesn't mean that there isn't another way to be.
The Rav's observance of Yiddshkeit went above and beyond the bare minumum of halacha even if it didn't correspond to your what Heimischer-turned Lubavitcher considers normative.

Anonymous said...

He held machine are more mehuder. No woman rolloing dough, so why shoudnt he eat them

Anonymous said...

In your traditional Chabad "Ahavas Yisroel", you mixed litvaks, yekkes and MO's in one rant. Your "Oberlander" K'sav Sofer made a takonoh to have only machine matzah. The prushim in Eretz yisroel have the same chumrah. Where the litvaks come in to not being machmir, I'm not sure. If you're refering to RYBS, then say so and don't lump everyone together, (and hi'zuher be'gechalto).

Anonymous said...

If you pick up a copy of this weeks "jewish Star" you will see an apology to the Frum community from the Streits Company.
What would your feelings be if a picture of the Lubavitcher rebbe was used with a cartoon bubble next to him (irreespective of the message in the bubble). Your derush of the message by the Rav is nonsense since the ad was made by a Goyishe advertising company.

Chabad-Revisited said...

I don't think you can use this to attack RJBS personaly - the attack should be directed at the attitude which his image is being used to represent. To say "who needs it?" reflects a certain flippancy for the time honored minhogim of klal yisroel le'doiroisayhem, and to pin such a statement to RJBS is simply disrespectful. This statement certainly does reflect "the classic litvish derech" as Reb Hirshel so eloquently describes it. A derech, by the way, which RJBS himself describes at length and with pride (though not in the flippant manner depicted here), in Halachik Man.

See here
http://chabadrevisited.blogspot.com/2010/03/minyoneh-deyomah-and-in-continuation-of.html
for a lengthy and contrasting description of the joyful and enthusiastic "lifnai meshuras hadin" preparation for pesach in Lubavitch.

seen it all said...

HT,
you're stepping way over the line here and stepping into deep dog----, and IMHO delete this thing now, or at least reword it. You're right abt people eating streits and going to 25k hotels. But don't mix in RAS & RYBS z"l. They didn't do it for $$$ reasons. It was a true belief of theirs, and let it be. Last yr in 5twns an uproar started when some rav claimed that u can't trust streits matzah and ordered it removed from some grocery. It was a direct attack on RAS's son, and this pic/article is probably a continuation of that.

Avi said...

I wish the Lubbies would stop preaching and shonerering so much.
Blog-guy, look a bit inward before you spew projectile verbal diarrhea on other Jews.This whole ahavas yisrael is a sham.We don't need your matzas and we don't need to follow your pick and choose religion.Rav Soloveichik was way above any rabbi you guys ever had.Now you guys won't even appoint anybody!
Fools!

yoshe kalb said...

I think one needs to have real ברייטע פלייצעס to deride literally millions of Yidden who ( try to ) fulfill the mitzvoh of eating matzos by using mashinove matzos.
In my parents' house there is a nice picture of the first seder after the liberation with hundreds of people sitting around tables with Manischewitz wine for the four cups, machine matzos and Haggodos published for the Jewish GIs.
I wish you and all readers a פריילאכען פסח

Dov said...

Frankly Sir, we don't give a rats behind what you think of our matzos.
I"m sure and have actually seen on the blog how upset you get when Lubabitchs lax practices are attacked.

Anonymous said...

tzig knows good and well that the litvishe yeshivah world is more machmir than any chasidim when it comes to baking matzos.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

See Here. Does Rav Moshe Sternbuch count as one of the Perushim?

Anonymous said...

HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE A ModOrth SCORNED...

Ma Rabbi said...

I dont want to insult anybody but I cannot understand the logic of those that prefer machine matzoh to hand. Are they saying that their great-grandfathers did something wrong. The Vilna gaon ate hand baked Matzahs as did all the Gedolim before him.

Isaac Balbin said...

Oh come on, haven't you read the Tshuvos of those Gedolim and Poskim who stopped eating hand made years and years ago when they saw how much better in their eyes machine shmura was?

You all seem to forget the ad has nothing to do with the Rav or his brother. It is a response to last year when people with a disgusting agenda tried to put Streits out of business by saying they weren't "kosher" enough.

Hey, last year, we were invited to some chabad friends' house on Pesach. Anyway, my condition was that I could eat my machine shmura only :-) Live and let Live.

Anonymous said...

Guys, I was at one these plant many years ago when they were in LIC NY it was chometz gomer, you can say perushim, ksav sofer etc... they didn"t talk about these big factories that had machines long a square block, their machines were like the Viener kehila had in Willi. It is definitely a Zilzul in a issur Koras.
But Hirshel is mistaking to make it into a Chassidic/Misnagdic issue, since reb Shloma Kluger a Non Chosid was the big machmir and wrote a full kuntres on that issue,
and in Russia there were chasidic rabonim and rebbes that were not as against it.

Anonymous said...

RJBS in the famous chumash deroshas gives his reason that he is switching to Mizrachi, eventough the great Ziede Reb Chaim was against the Mizrachi, because he feels a responsibility for Klal Yisroel. But does that apply to all other short cuts as the non shietel etc ?

מול העינם said...

Tzig you yourself have alluded to the fact that the Perushim by and large sided with the Rabanut, and those who are in the Eidah very quickly assimilated into Hungarian Kannaus. The machine tradition was so strong that even today the Eidah gives their hechsher on them, and it took until today for their Litvacks to get swallowed to the extent that RMS is today. Even with that Rav Shternbuch was very measures in his criticism of today's machines.
Are you not denying the fact that non-Chasidic Yerushalayim viewed machine matzos as a hiddur? (Even today they're are machine matzos mitzvah baked Erev Pesach)

binyomin said...

"על ראש הגנב, בוער הכובע"..

Anonymous said...

Hey Isaac if you don't mind please leave some mareh mekomos

schneur said...

Once again we have Chassidim preaching that Yiddishkayt "stands" only on chumres and hidduring and in some cases minhogim and even less than that. As if Gebrokechtz , and knaidlech Hand matzo, Chalav Israel ( despite heterim from the Pri Chodosh and rav Moshe F.) etc etc make the Jew. In a sense you give yourself away when you downplay your traffic fine for talking on a phone while driving. Who knows maybe not obeying the traffic law is worse in the eyes of G-D than eating Hood or Sealtest milk !Of course there is dina demalchusa but what about the sakana invovled. perhaps its not just a ma bekach ? Chochma baGoyim -taamin !
It is this sort of attitude that breeds the corrupt moral and ethical values that permeate the frum world. So a guy wears a ring ,(I have yet to hear or see a chasid refusing to go to an MO doctor wearing a ring) or does not wear a kippah at work,(hardly a religious sin, perhaps a sociological sin)
I did not know the rav but the man was so authentic in his Jewish mahus that I would not question his minhogim, just like you would not like anyone questioning the practices of the Rebbe.
By the way one of the most chashuve pre war Galitzianer rebbeim in the US Rabbi Langner the Stretiner rebbe gave an endorsement for Goodman's machine matzos in the 1930's.If you don't believe me I can send it to you ! Indeed the mashgiach of that company was himself a Chassidic rebbe Rabbi Mendele Chodorov of the Bronx a Vishnitzer eynikel no less.
Finally the Belzer rov in Israel Rav Aaron told one of his chassidim who was mocking machime matzos to be careful and not be motze shem ra on the millions of Jews eating machine matzos.
The present chief mashgiach of Manischewitz is a very chashuve chassidic rav and rebbe who I am certain amkes sure the Matzos are 100% kosher for those who want those Matzos.
Finally the ad was foolish and in the following week's paper an apology was published.

rebcharles said...

Hey Anonymous

I think you meant to say "Be"gach'lato" not Be gach'lato"

this is the most intelligent pearl I can add to this swine of a thread

shelo asani chareidi said...

It pains me to sink to your level but here goes.

It really is another religion. I don't mean Lubavitch, I mean the "heimisher oylim" otherwise known as the cultural practices of the denizens of chareidistan.

So all those who held that machine shmura is more mehudar are taking shortcuts? Not for me to judge but the only time I ever found an unbaked chometz bubble in my matza it was not machine. I won't say whose bakery; it's irrelevant.

So my BT mother, who owns sheitlach but won't wear them because she feels it isn't tznius is a hypocrite? And the chareidistani women who wear skin-tight spandex skirts aren't?

And what about all the clean shaven heimisher with the small yarmulke in the workplace who show up on shabbos with bekitches looking like they're in a purim costume? And I am a hypocrite with my untrimmed beard and tzitzis out?

Anonymous said...

@anon 155am

"since reb Shloma Kluger a Non Chosid..."

Whaaa? More snaggish theivery! Stealing a galicianer as one of their own. A shande. Everyone knows that back in the day Yeshivas R'Shloime Kleeger was the chasidish alternative to RJJ in the LES.

Olde Timer.

Isaac Balbin said...

Anonymous: Re Mekoros

I am in India no time or space! Went back to Nariman House (Chabad House of Bombay) a few days ago. Words can't describe it. I took a small video inside ...

Start with the Chazon Ish and the Faltichaner (if my memory serves me correctly). I heard R' Schachter talking about it in a Shiur last year. I can go back to it and report mekoros, but I'm on the run.

But more to he point. It is well known that at the Halperin factory Erev Pesach Gedolay Horabonim from many groups gather to push the button for machine shmura. In this past this included R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, R Pinchas Epstein, R' Charlap and many more Yereim and Shlemim. The Badatz still gives its hechsher.

Yes, the Divrei Chaim had a hidden reason to assur, but are we to believe that all of a sudden these Gedolim in Yerusholayim (let alone the Rav and his brother) didn't know what they were doing or that the machines changed suddenly from last year (like the elevators?)

I haven't the time to get into a back and forth on this, but the point is that this is not some new issue! Streits were under attack and they have every right to stick to their respected hashgocho.

schneur said...

Tzig. During lunch I just read an interview in SHVII with the menahel of the Pressburg yeshva IN Jslm rabbi Karpen . He clearly astates that the rav the Daas Sefer rav Akiva Sofer ate machine Matzo shmura even in Jslm , eating a bit of hand shmura the 1st night to be yotze the yerushalmi minhog (??)
In general its an interesting interview with tid bits about his attitude towards Israel, minhogim rabbanus etc.

BUYTHEWAY said...

A distinction should be pointed out between hiddur mitzvah and chumros. Whereas Chassidim, with their focus on things like bechal derahchecha daeyhu, dveykus, ahavas hashem, simcha and so on often seek hidurim, the emphasis on chumros is more of a misnagdisher thing. In fact non-chassidishe talmidei chachamim have been criticized from the outset of chassidus as too much distracted by dikduk hadin. Reb Chayim Valozhiner takes pains to place careful kiyyum hamitzvos above hiddur mitzvah in his Nefesh Hachaim, as does the Chazon Ish in Emunah Uvitachon.

The question of Machine vs Hand Made Matzohs does not fit easily into either category. As was noted above, many opinions go so far as to say Machine Matzohs are not only equally kosher but superior. The inferiority on Halachik grounds has been difficult to prove. The Sanzer Rav famously resorted to a "taam hakamus," a hidden reason. There is no apparent hiddur mitvah issue with Machine Matzohs, unless you prefer the taste of Hand made ones.

It is mistaken to associate Rabbi Soloveitchik's acceptance of Machine Matzohs as emanating from a misnagdisher tradtition. His grandfather, an central figure in the Brisker mesorah, the Bais Halevi was a great machmir in regards to matzoh baking and his minhagim are still kept by the Soloveitchik family in Israel as well as by some Bisker Talmidim. The set of guidelines they use are among the most stringent in the world.

The case of dalet minim anomalous because the hiddur mitzvah is central to the mitzvah iitself and is mentioned in the Aseh "pri etz hadar."

The minhag of being machmir in regards to Pesach has niether as austere a legitimacy, nor as widespread an observance, but is also definitely legitimate. The most famous example is the shkenai minhag of kitniyos. I think the idea of chumros on Pesach has an explicit source in the Arizal, related to the idea that Chametz is symbolic of the Yetzer Hara. Still, one would have to distinguish between Chumros which come from a concern for meeting the Halacha's standards and those which are lifnim mishuras hadin.

There is an attitude in certain Yeshiva traditions that excessive devotion to anything but Torah study, be it dikduk hadin, hiddur mitvah (even regarding arbaas haminim), dveykus or even tefilah and explicit mitzvos aseh like gemilus chasadim, are to be seen as second rate and uninteresting. This is part of what the Baalei Mussar argued with. However, it does not seem to the attitude of the pre- or non-chassidic Ashkenazi Rabbinate as represented by anyone from the GRA to the Chasam Sofer to the Noda Beyehuda.

Returning to our theme, it was certainly not the misnagdishe mesorah of RJBS that taught him to approve of Machine Baked Matzohs. What it was is hard to say, perhaps a combination of his generally lax attitude to ritual and his responsibility for a not-very-enthusiastic Jewish community which might not have had another source of matzohs. Has anyone seen an opinion of his in print on the question?

Ma Rabbi said...

Reply to Isac Bablin:
The Chazon Ish eat only hand baked Matzah so you are wrong on that.
I am not criticizing machine matzah. I am saying that Jews have been eating hand baked for thousands of years. So when one eats hand baked he has thousands of years of tradition to rely upon. And that the grandfathers and great grandfathers of all those advocating machine, ate hand baked matzah.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Say what you want, RJBS has long theories about Mesorah in Judaisim and he uses his grandfathers answer to reb Gershon Henech of Radzin that the Techeleth has no Mesorah and we can only do mitzvahs with a mesorah.Machine Matzoh can be kosher but it definitely has less Mesorah then Techeleth that is the original Mitzvah in the possuk. RJBS was a lamden but was a disaster in his Manhigas, no spine whatsoever on no issue, the book of Holczer gives you a insight on his personality,very weak, a Ilu with a very clear brain but fuzzy on decision making.

schneur said...

Anonymous.
If books like Holtzers were written about most gedolim, I think we would be shocked as to what we would read. Imagine taping the Kloizeneberger rav or the Satmarer rav or men like rav Abramski .

AMSHINOVER said...

there is a 3 way maclokes
as to why chamatz is never batul afelu bmashhu.
1.Rambam because its a dvar shyeash lo materin and those are NEVER batul (even before pesach you cant be mevatal the chametz)
2.Tosfos has 2 reasons 1 because of the kores attached to chametz
and 2 because of the commonality involved with chometz we fear it more.(but before the kores is attached the chomtz can be negated in sheshim)
3. Rabanu Tom's girsa in the talmud says it is batul bmahshhu.
if the rambam is right then the rollers ovens and all parts in matzah baking must be perfectly cleaned every 18 minutes.
but if tosfes is correct (the rama agrees with tosfes Thank God)then our matzas are fine because hand matzah always has less then 1/60 of chametz in it unless you are eating the tanur rishon (the lubavitch rebbe ZTLs chumra).
so the machine matzas though lacking lshma (or according to rav huna in gittin the godol omad ol gabuv helps) are 100% chamatz free like the Rambam (briskers) would like, though the rama and tosefes and certainly Rabanu tom felt unnecessary.

JUSTIN said...

Shelo Asani Chareidi,
How come you don't trim your beard?
For some reason, your rants sound silly.So, now at least I can picture you with your non Lubavitch but non trimmed beard.Are you a Baruch Goldstein wannabe?

gideon said...

"1.Rambam because its a dvar shyeash lo materin and those are NEVER batul (even before pesach you cant be mevatal the chametz)"

Amshi,
Are you sure about the last part, that even if it is NOT yet Assur, because of dovor sheyesh loh matirim it would become assur?Isn't it considered battel already?
Are you sure you are not talking about an issur of "chozer veney'or"? A special chumrah by Pesach.

pini said...

Can someone explain the Rebbes chumra with "tanur rishon"?

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch???
Who cares what they think?

itchiemayer said...

"doing the bare minimum of yiddishkeit already requires lots of mesirus nefesh, so maybe dont be so hard on people"?
A wonderful comment by Hippogirl. We should all take it to heart.

Anonymous said...

rabbi morgenstern of kock said:if i am i because you are you;and you are you because i am i; then you are not you,and i am not i. but if i am i because i am i; and you are you because you are you;then i am i and you are you and we can talk.
you are a sad,sad man.you spend so much time talking about others in order to explain yourself to others and to your self,and defining yourself in contrast to others.don't you know yet who you are?have you no real sense of your self?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so wait, you want me to talk about myself?!

Anonymous said...

yes,you should talk about yourself, but only to the kb'h and your self.make use of the habad concept of "adaita d'nafshei".

Isaac Balbin said...

Ma Rabbi: Reply to Isaac Bablin:
The Chazon Ish eat only hand baked Matzah so you are wrong on that.


How do you infer from that factoid that he held that one is not mekayem the mitzvah of shmura matza with machine shmura?

(They say the Beis Yisroel davka had a box in his house to show that even though he ate hand made, it was definitely okay!)

Anonymous: comparing machine shmura with techeles is simply illogical. This sounds like a hungarian pilpul. If you can't see the fruits of the Rav's manhigus (yes, the good fruit) then you are blinded by something.

Halevi said...

I Found a page on hebrew books, does anyone know who wrote it http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13154&hilite=0ecc7598-887e-4939-85d6-23cdb6ad319c&st=+%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%94+%d7%9e%d7%9b%d7%95%d7%a0%d7%99%d7%aa

Anonymous said...

Issac Balbin,
The Beis Yisroel story is probably fiction, since the Polishe gedolim were adamantly against it, look at the strong Kol Koreh of the Avnei Nezer against the Marsham that gave some lenient psak for Jerusalem, he quotes in the broadsheet the strong words of the Divrei Chaim and Chidushei Harim,
Since u are the great lamdan and I am influenced by Pilpul (which is by the way more polish then hungarian)please teach me how come the details of Matza need no mesorah?

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Its my assumption that the hasgocha of the Stretiner and Chodorev was a big part of the Yiddishkiet matzav in Prewar America, they sold their souls to the devil, and were spineless to fight the mighty wind of Americanization, till a Jew like the holy Tzelimer started fighting the big machines, The Stretiner Rebiem were very close and under the influence of the Sanzer Rov, (in the Teshuvahs he settles their Inheritance fight), the biggest fighter against Machine Matzohs,what made him think different.I am not judging him in the circumstances of then, but its not a plus in his biography for sure.

Anonymous said...

I advise all my fellow lubabs to chk out otzar minhagei chabad pgs 21-41 abt matzah before commenting on machine vs. hand-made.

schneur said...

Meyredike leshenes here about selling souls to the devil !This about Bnan shel kedoshim (the Stretiner made no money from his hamlotze he was not the mashgiach). By the way Rav Moshe was featured in ads for machine matzos in those days appearing in the Yiddihs papers standing next to his cousin rav Yoshe Ber. Did he too sell his ...
Yet I never heard such leshenes about our contemporary Orthodox charedi gangsters who continue to cheat, lie and steal in a TIME OF GREAT SHEFA.
Lets hear it are they too selling their souls to the devil or is only someone who endorses the possibility of machine Matzo ?The ganze Yiddishkayt hengt af Knaydlech, machine matzos and chalav israel, cheating stealing , means zip.If the eylem was as nizhor in beyn adam lechaveiro as they are in blasting machine matzo , Mashiach would be here before Pesach !
As I said previously in Israel the Belzer rav Aren Kahana Kadisha the recognized Zaddik hador was nizhar in hearing anything negative about machine matzos. But who knows according to your shita he too may have sold ....

Anonymous said...

Lubavitchers talking about selling "souls".What a joke.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Reb Moshe was pure torah he didn"t have to answer to no one,if he believed the CS or the Divrei Chaim erred then he would be the first to tell you. But RJBS even after all his new acclaimed MO religion still held him self a heir of the brisker family and was giving long biurim on the concept of Mesorah, how could he approve a major change, and the same goes for a Galicianer Rebbe as the Stretiner,if he consider himself a mamshich of a Geza,then don"t sell out at your convenience.
Since we are at the Mesorah discussion, I can assure you that the the dina demalchusa by eastern european jews have their mesorah and they are sticking to it....

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:14
which Lubavicher spoke about the soul Racmona litzlan?

yoshe kalb said...

BTW, guess which matzos are included in the Kimche DePiss'cha food parcels distributed by Chabad in Russia, Eretz Yisroel etc ?

schneur said...

Pray tell me what was the Massorah of east European Jews in regards Dina demalchusa. This tradition that they stick too. I am really interested in knowing.

shelo asani chareidi said...

Justin: I sound silly because I'm imitating rants found in the comments section on this blog. I don't trim my beard because I like how long it grows naturally.

Re Goldstein: Of all the long bearded tziyonim out there you had to pick the one who's famous for shooting people?

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
According to a lot of shitohs there is no dina demalchusai on corrupted governments or non equal ones, they would never do for the Acorn offical what they did to Rubashkin or to Spinka rebbe.

justin said...

"I don't trim my beard because I like how long it grows naturally."


Good luck, you probably do look like Goldstein.I wish you wouldn't give MO's a bad name by posting silly crud and always defending Lubavitch and it's crazies

shelo asani chareidi said...

I have no idea why you decided to obsess with my beard. I only mentioned it because people seem to have the (wrong on two counts) idea that just like everyone in BP is a welfare cheat, all MOs shave.

justin said...

Shelo Asani,
Nobody is obsessing with your hobo unkempt beard.Get a life a nd grow a brain.

Modeh B'Mitktsas said...

OK, I made the mistake of exercising wit on those who do not have the brains to appreciate it. M'kol milamdai hiskalti.

justin said...

Modeh bemiktsas , you got mixed up with your other, handle Shelo Asani.

"M'kol milamdai hiskalti":,Sir, you never learn anything, you are the same unkempt tipesh

Isaac Balbin said...

Anonymous:
tcheles is a metziyus whose mesora as such was interrupted

making matzos is about plain Halacha not a missing metziyus

It is Hungarian to assume the machine makes a new metziyus!

The most you can try and argue is whether machine is/needs asiya lishmo and the definition of shimur and loach rishon etc

Seems to me Moshe Rabeynu's Matzah (and Hillels) were soft anyway so according to your logic hard matzah perhaps should be assur as it had no mesora?
No. It's not about Mesorah it's about hilchos chametz and matzoh

The story of the Beis Yisroel was not that he ate it but rather that he was against those who had pikpukim against such matzah

ashtei asar said...

Melb blog AJN Watch has a great photo of the l;ate Rabbi Groner baking shemurah matzos.

http://tinyurl.com/yzohkvo

Also a comment/questiopn which has not be answered. Maybe someone here can do so.

>>>Anyone know why Lubabvitch stopped baking matzos here? And how it is with Chabad in other places? Do they bake on erev Pesach like other chasidim - or not? What about the rebbe himself and his forbears?<<<

http://ajnwatch.blogspot.com/2010/03/rabbi-groner-baking-matzos-in-melbourne.html#comments

UD said...

Both Vizhnitze Rebbes of today, zol gezind zayn, ate machine matzhoh while in Grosswardein, but only in the women's quarters. It was ok for children, but it was an unquestionable no-no to bring it within daled amos of the Beis Medrash.