Tuesday, March 2, 2010

!אוי

Levaya of Rebbetzin Shochet, ע"ה

59 comments:

A Talmid said...

Oy Harav Shochet!! Our heart is broken with you!! May Hashem give you only Simchas from now on.

snagville said...

Wow. For the first time I don't know what to say from a post of yours. How come I didn't know that such Lubavitchers exist? (I know you will say my problem not yours). If you posted for those that knew already I guess my comment doesn't belong. But if you wanted to include me as well, then I guess I should let you know I was floored. He didn't even mention the Rebbe once. Is he considered mainstream Chabad? I was not Stam impressed.

YGB said...

Snagville:

You'll be happy to learn that Uncle Ezra shlita learned by Rav Ruderman, by Reb Aharon Kotler and by Reb Dovid Soloveitchik. L'havdil bein chaim l'chaim, his Rebbitzin a"h was not Chabad, she was a Slonimer einekel, and always told me that she remained a Slonimer.

Were Uncle Ezra to have been in the Litvishe Yeshiva World, he would be considered one of the greatest Roshei Yeshiva alive today.

snagville said...

YGB,

Thanks for the information. How about his kids? Are they following the Mehalech of at least mixing in some non-Chabad influence?

Anonymous said...

snagville, not sure whether i should continue and therefore disappoint you... but Rabbi Shochet mentions the Rebbe at 5:34.

YGB said...

I don't know his kids other than his oldest. His oldest is pretty much total Chabad.

snagville said...

Anony,

I missed that one.

snagville said...

YGB,

I figured so.

Anonymous said...

We in chabad have no trouble considering R Shochet one of the greatest roshei yeshivah alive today, despite him not being in the litvishe yeshiva world

Anonymous said...

As a student of YOEC over an above average length, and one who had a close but turbulent with the ROsh I can agree with RGB assessment that were he to be in a different circle, he would be considered amongst the greatest.

The Rosh most definitely mentioned the Rebbe as well as quoting the Frierdiker Rebbe. YOu also seemed to not be moved by the Roshs plea that we will look pch stupid things as different paths in our avodah.

I should also add, now that the world here is taking note of the Rosh, that in all my time at this blog, there has been this constant theme that Lubavitchers are a bunch of ignoramuses who wouldnt know how to hold a shulchan aruch, let alone learn from one. I can personally attest to the numerous bochurim during my years in YOEC (despite it being a school with an open door for less religious local students) who had tremendous kishronos in learning and could easily hold their own with bochurrim from premium litvishe yeshivos (and did) - with the Rosh literally and figuratively at the head of the pack. Just because many of the students and my classmates became Shluchim speaks more to their strong values in understanding the benefit of spreading Torah than keeping it to themselves in a Kollel etc.

In any event, I will close by saying that some of my fondest memories in YOEC were of shabbos and Yom tov meals at the Schochet's. The food was always good, the conversation intelligent, the stories from Rabbi Zevin;s Suppurei Chassidim always entertaining and Rebbetzin Schochet always exhorting me to eat more, that I looked skinny.

May her memory be for a blessing.

Anonymous said...

yeh, he says that the "rebbe says" and then he quotes a possuk.

YCB

Who does he consider his Rebbe (in learning)?

How do you know that he would be from the "greatest Litvisheh Rosh yeshiva"? Which of the greatest Snag Roshey Yeshiva do you know in learning?

Anonymous said...

u could tell he had a Snag chinuch cuz he is mishabeyach her by letting him be what he became. psh

Anonymous said...

Listen at 16:40 and you will see that he is not a true Chabadzker

Anonymous said...

YGB said...
I don't know his kids other than his oldest. His oldest is pretty much total Chabad

YGB, from your comments it seems u don't know your uncle too well. That's OK, he's a schochet and being one u know how they are socially v'dal.

1. His 6 kids are all chassidim of the Rebbe and they were brought up that way by their parents.

2. He told me he learned by RSK not RAK. At one point he had a private chavrusa with him. I understand there's some kind of family blood tie there as well.

3. He is a chossid end of story. He never claimed anything else. He is outspoken on some things he sees going on today in Chabad, but it is an internal criticism, not an outsider looking in. He is probably more mekushar to the Rebbe than 90% of those who walk around parading their hiskashrus.

In HS @ NY, he had a run-in with RSYW about growing a beard. It started with a letter from the Rebbe and ended with 2 guys forcibly cutting half his beard.

4. Your aunt Rebbitzen Schochet A"H had a nuanced approach to Chabad. On one hand she would go on mivtzoim, doing neshek with women, talking about TH, etc. This was mesiras nefesh for her, since her big issue was tznius and being out in public places on a hot summer day in LA was not her thing.

On the other hand she always claimed to be a slonimer chossid and her dream in life was to move back to meah shearim and wear bulletproof stockings. However when the Rebbe sent REBS Shlita to LA she followed loyally and suffered hardship for many years. The first 10-15 yrs in LA were very hard financially on them, and their family was growing at the same time. No one ever heard her complain about it, and she accepted it as her shlichus.

Bottom line, while she proudly told anyone who would listen (including me, I heard it many times) "I am not a lubavitcher", she acted like a true chossid when it mattered.

The main thing is that the family should be mischazek and continue on their work. B"H all of them are involved in avoidas hakodesh and this is the biggest zchus for her and we should be zoiche to bi'as moshiach v'hokitzu v'raninu shoichnei afar v'hee b'soichom.

Anonymous said...

YGB said
"Were Uncle Ezra to have been in the Litvishe Yeshiva World, he would be considered one of the greatest Roshei Yeshiva alive today."

I'm not so sure. The Schochets (u included) are very bad at the political game, and they don't know how to be group players. with the exception of R' Dovid Shlita. They are very black and white, and they don't say things for political expediency. Since he's uncontrollable and won't say the right things, the yated/hamodia/moatzes crowd would never have promoted him.

What he could have been if not a RY in Chabad was a mechaber seforim, sitting in a kollel and writing day and night. He would have been famous around the world for his insightful writings on rishonim and achronim. You can see some of this in the kovtzim printed by YOEC.

Anonymous said...

snagville
he did mention the rebbe, the frierdige rebbe and the alte rebbe a few times,plus the ad mosai cry is the rebbe's influence so please take him of your list too,
I am amazed of your sinas yisroel

Anonymous said...

Snagville,
Rav Shochet is very much in to the Rebbes Nigleh, he wrote 20 to 30 mamorim on the Hagada, its his pet subject,

ANI MAMIN said...

I saw his remarks on COL complaining on Hashem that she did not deserve to die, since the lubabs were coached into chanting AD MOOSAI against Hashems Gezirus Hagules it pretty much took over their whole amuna not to be Matzdik as Hadin on any Gezira that befalls them, its about time they should statrd joining klal yisroel with repeating the 13 Ani Aamins after davening instead of spitting on their coreligionists

Anonymous said...

'YGB said
"Were Uncle Ezra to have been in the Litvishe Yeshiva World, he would be considered one of the greatest Roshei Yeshiva alive today." '

Maybe read it the other way that the Litvishe Yeshiva world excludes him and that is the chesron that should be stressed.

Anonymous said...

I don"t know this guy Becherhoffer, but I never thought that a Yekke could be so classless,a peasant of marmoresh has more decency then him, Yekkes are very small minded but class the claim to have,he is a talmid chochom shein boi daas.

Anonymous said...

Ani,
Ad Mosai is Nach and Chazal, its part of the 13 principles to believe in every word of oral torah and written torah,Plus Achaka Loi Bechoil Yom,means you scream every day like a child When is the geula arriving, at least as you wait for the late taxi when you are late to catch a flight at the airport,
Farrshtantooo???

ANI MAMIN not you said...

to Anon 1:24
AD Mosai is against torah, meshiach is not late he will come ON time when hashem will decide that he wants to send meshiach to redeemm us,yelling like a sicko want scare him into any thing
BTW your comparamle to some one who waits at a taxi stand and yells out his lungs AD Mosai is right on the Butten only a mesuganar willdo it. but the said part is mu origanal statement that ""since the lubabs were coached into chanting AD MOOSAI against Hashems Gezirus Hagules it pretty much took over their whole amuna not to be Matzdik as Hadin on any Gezira that befalls them, its about time they should statrd joining klal yisroel with repeating the 13 Ani Aamins after davening instead of spitting

Anonymous said...

Ani (Loi) Mamin
I have no time now for arguments, but when you daven mincha today, by Es Tzemach Dovid don"t say the word Mehairo that Hashem should quicken the redemption,you will turn automatically in to a fanatic lubab Mamin beHashem.
You remind me of the early Reformer in Berlin that were obsessed to root out every thing pertaining to Shivas Zion from their prayers

Anonymous said...

Ani mamin & anonymous, listen again to the first 10 minutes of the speech. Could u kids just cut this out? chabad has its derech, the litvaks have their derech, just get along, and serve Hashem with a pure heart and everything else will work out.

Anonymous said...

Likvod Korei haBlog,

As a former neighbor of the Shochats and talmid, many of you are talking in the dark.

RS is a GAON!!! A Chasid of the Rebbe and all the Rebbeim. If you saw his tears and pain the two years the Rebbe was ill, you'd talk differently.

He once pick me up by my shirt and wanted to put me away because in a chasidus pilpul I said, it was in his opinion contrary to Emunah, etc. Although, it caused a good laugh among the students, yet, his honesty and integrity was there.

His wife, Rebbetzin Rochel a"h, was very much a Yerushalmi, yet, understood the Chabad innovation and absolute necessity to reach out etc.

I recall times the REbbe instructed RS to say l'chaim on a full cup of wine. It was obvious they had a special bond.

A Former Talmid

Anonymous said...

At the end of the day, her legacy will live in Chabad.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2;33
Ir Zent Gerecht, but even on a funeral we have to take care on "Asher Charfi Ikvois Meshichecho" especialy when he shrouds himself in the name of Emuna

ANI Mamin said...

complaining against Heshem is a lack of Amuna
complaining against your rebbe is a doiresh al hmasim
but by every tragady you lubabs are challenging Hashem with chutzpa and Kefire the Jewish way is to be scream out Hashem Hatazdik Vani Vami Chutunie

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Anon 2;33
"Ir Zent Gerecht, but even on a funeral we have to take care on "Asher Charfi Ikvois Meshichecho" especialy when he shrouds himself in the name of Emuna"

TY. This argument is childish for a simple reason. Both derachim are correct. We have to accept Hashem's way and we say Boruch...dayan ha-emes (even us lubabs say it). At the same time we have to demand an answer for our pain and suffering. You can see both of these in two sichas. One when the bochur chitrik was killed in a car accident and two when Pesha Leah Lapine HY"D was murdered.

Ani mamin, go learn some seforim, esp. the Chofetz Chaim & R' Elchonon Wasserman HY"D on moshiach.

Mottel said...

What can I say that hasn't been said already?
YGB, perhaps you reconnect with your family again and learn a bit more about your cousins . . .
Anon 12:02am and Anon 1:44am are spot on, as is the Former Talmid (YR perhaps?).

Ani Maamin shoteh du, go get some derech eretz and not shout your hate in a post on a video that spoke of unity.

ANI Mamin said...

To demand an answer from Hashem for your pain and suffering is a lack of amuna you can be mispalel to hashem to take away your suffering but to complain or demand is a the new lubab style that was only heard in the past from apikorsem and in the sichas, One when the bochur chitrik was killed in a car accident, Two when Pesha Leah Lapine HY"D and Three when it was decided to negate many pesukim in the torah where it is said that Hashem will send us in golous and he will redeem us when HE sees fit to do it, stop brickering, and i saw all of the above when i learned some seforim, esp. the Chofetz Chaim & R' Elchonon Wasserman HY"D

ANI Mamin said...

Mottel!!!!
1) Mitev shyieh shoteh kol Yomov v"al yiya rosh shoo achas
Bemokem shyesh Chilol Hashem ein Cholken Kuved this is not called Hate
2) BTW who advocates anti unity splitting up Jews between shomrei torah umitzvos by highlighting a fight that transpired 200 years ago and at the same time kissing up to every apikores on the universe,
if i hold you for a nebech dosent mean i hate you

duvy said...

Hey,Mottel.YGB is on excellent terms with his family! The "problem" is they are a very large family, and spread out across the world so the cousins don't get to meet very often unless they are from the same city

Anonymous said...

Ani Mamain
did chazal write more the 1800 years ago
KOLI KOL HAKITZEN,
Most gedolie olem gave already Kitzin, Rambam(eventough he is against it) Ramban and many more Gedolim later on as the Gra,their is a whole sefer Kol Hatoir based on the Gra that the Leshem quotes many times on the subject of the Ketz.

Anonymous said...

A few months ago, HT posted a shiur from YGB abt Chabad and its minhagim. Afterwards I approached REBS Shlita and offered him a disk of this lecture. He gave me his opinion of his nephew and I can't repeat it for privacy reasons. But I can say that he considers RGB a very learned person who unfortunately has the Schochet gene of my way or the highway and we'll leave it at that.

Anonymous said...

Duvy, are you one of the cousins? Living on shlichus in a campus somewhere in the USA?

Anonymous said...

Ani Maamin,
The Chilul Hashem is happening when a little squirrel like you has the chutzpa to berate a person like the Rosh of LA, do you have the amkus that he has in shas? are you bichlal in his ballpark?, according to the Rambam a Mevaze Talmid Chochom is a apikores with no psuedo arguments, Apikores Kipshito. Even the CS that doesn't hold of the conceptualizing of the 13 principles agrees that you are Apikores. What exactly is your argument now of the 200 years? did Rav Shochet say something about the 200 years anywhere anytime? if he did, the gemora said Bevadai Osu Teshuva? what gives you the right of Bizoyen Talmid Chochem?

Anonymous said...

Ani (Loi) Mamin
Only a Misnaged a Menuvel can argue on a case like the Kedosha Lapian that lived a life of Mesiras Nefesh and ended up her life with mesiras nefesh al kidush hashem, that he believes she died for her sins like a Mekatreg R"L there are many times that a tzadik dies for the sins of the generation not for his sins, did you ever hear of this concept in Yiddishkiet? did the Rebbe say they shouldn"t say Tzedoik Hadin or didn"t say Vehachai Yiten al Liboi,? One thing I can tell you the Key of Rine Emuna is in the hands of the Talmidie Habesht in the last "200" years May it be the Alte Rebbe or Reb Mottele Nadvorner Zy"A, its is in their veins.

Ani Mamin said...

to Anon 6:52 yelling on Hashem ad Mosai for hashem not sending yet meshiach is a mockery of Hasems Gezirous, yelling on Hashem for taking away your wife violates the FIRST Ani Mamin,
to be Mispallel to Hashem Only is in accordance of the fifth Ani Mamin
to ANON 7:02
Anyone who has the chutzpa to berate
Hashem for not doing things the way or in the time you want is an apikores, a yid has to be Matzdik as Hadin Kipshito,
YOU LUBABS and not any believing Jew is identifying himself with not conceptualizing the 13 Ikrim because it helps you increase the Blurriness that will help you in spreading apikoirses

ani Mamin said...

to Loi Mamin
I can tell you the Key of Rine Emuna is in the hands of Those who do not challenge Hashem before or After mumbling Tzudik Hadin they accept what ever Hashem does with tesiva and tefila and not bad mouthing Hashem for one second

Anonymous said...

Ani Mamin
so he his kofer in 2 only ani mamins?
what about the other ani mamin is he Ok ? Please help us all?

Anonymous said...

Ani Mamin
"to Anon 6:52 yelling on Hashem ad Mosai for hashem not sending yet meshiach is a mockery of Hasems Gezirous,"
Who said Ani Mamin? but I would rather rely on a Goan Olem as Rav Shochet then on an am horetz

"yelling on Hashem for taking away your wife violates the FIRST Ani Mamin,"
Who said Ani Mamin? but I would rather rely on a Goan Olem as Rav Shochet then on a am horetz

"to be Mispallel to Hashem Only is in accordance of the fifth Ani Mamin"
Who said Ani Mamin? but I would rather rely on a Goan Olem as Rav Shochet then a am horetz

to ANON 7:02
"Anyone who has the chutzpa to berate
Hashem for not doing things the way or in the time you want is an apikores, a yid has to be Matzdik as Hadin Kipshito,
YOU LUBABS and not any believing Jew is identifying himself with not conceptualizing the 13 Ikrim because it helps you increase the Blurriness that will help you in spreading apikoirses"
Who said Ani Mamin? but I would rather rely on a Goan Olem as Rav Shochet then a on an am horetz

OlyJew said...

Must See Vidoes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osdyhs0RMLE

http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/984883/jewish/Ker-A-Velt.htm

Anonymous said...

Anybody know how and why he got farchapt by Chabad? Did he have from the Rebbe in learning?

LF said...

Very short clip of The Rosh speaking about spreading chassidus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3EiQm5G9uc

another talmid said...

before everyone gets caught uo in answering the apikoros who is mevaze talmidei chachomim and is a maamin in name only;
tanach, from mosher rabeinu is full of 'lomo hareioso lo'omo haze'

if u will listen to what R' ezra said or to the rebbe on many occasions. it is a hear felt cry of lomo harei'oso and at the same time, repeating, we cant tell hashem hwat to do. cry out is something we must, even though we know that at the end he decides we still need to be not only do teshuva, but we need to talk and cry to the aybershter lke a child cries to his father.
(as a 5th generation american shomer shabbos with who family kep their beards, and yet who would not be frum if my grandfather didnt join lubavitch I can say the rebbe was machzir b'tshuvo not the tinokos shenishbu but established the frum velt but that just gonna start up other arguments which i wont be here to answer and explain cause i dont get the time to visit here as often as i would like)

another talmid said...

to anon 9:16
he got 'farchapt' to lubavitch like his brothers, because there was some connection already (thru his uncle R' CMA chodakov, and then the brocho and the miraculous eitzo that saved his siter mrs newman)
when his parents wanted him to goto university they agreed the rebbe would be machria, and that was how he went to ponovezh (for a very short while) and then learned in brisk.
i am not sure what u mean did he have from the rebbe in learning, unlike the FR the rebbe did not hide his learning too much, many gedolei yisroel 'had from the rebbe in learning'.
did he learn the rebbe's torahs? his ha'amoko in the rebbes torah is rare even within lubavitch.
(someone mentioned his writing on the rebbes pirush in the hagodo, what was not mentioned is that he was medayek to understand all the punctuation, and had a whole back and forth with the rebbe about the last 3 he did not understand, at first the rebbe said they were just printing mistakes btu when he insisted the rebbe explained them to him as well)

Not Brisk said...

A must see video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCDHhhLd5CE

Isaac Balbin said...

NB: I can't think of a single thing in this "must see" video which bothers me in the slightest. What I noticed most was the LR's hand shaking.

To those who manufacture issurim and ascribe apikorsus r"l to anyone who says Ad Mosai, I would say that a pathological or invented hate as opposed to clear halachic thinking or objectivity is mischievously at play.

So much unbridled Sinah over issues that are really no more than the nuanced approach of a particular group. To then aggrandise these as kefirah! ה' ירחם

It's almost as if it's some tragedy when/if a family becomes Chassidim of Chabad. Why does it bother anyone?

What next, someone will say R' Yekusiel Farkash must have lost his mind when he said that he tried all the kloizen and settled on Chabad. I heard it from him directly. It's an interesting story but it doesn't turn me into a Lubavitcher nor does it make me feel good or bad. If it's right for someone, then מה טוב ומה נעים

Benjy said...

Isaac Balbin,
Since Not Brisk did not say anything about his "must see" video,whether it was supposed to bother or encourage you, your apologetics are again noted.
Just like the saying goes "aufen apologist brent dos hittel"


The "tragedy" of becoming Lubavitch, is that that individual will move away from his family and roots.Is it a tragedy?Don't know, but I just wonder what the average Lubavitcher would say about a family member who joined another group?
Oh, about the "apikorsus":Seems you have managed to get over the goings on in Melbourne on "ta'aneisim".Are those Lubavitchers apikorsim?Don't know but they are well on their way.Even Rabbi Akselrod, well known Meshichist posek, claimed that a well known Meshichist is an "apikores".So it seems that there is some downhill traction there.
Last but not least:Lubavitchers are always claiming that the Rayat'z said that drinking "cholov stam" leads to apikorsus,vekahn habein shoel,if someone chooses to rely on R'Moshe Feinstein and the Orthodox Union, who are they to make "apikorsus" claims. (besides for the whole thing being baseless, but I won't go there)

Bekitser, R'Isaac, as someone close to Lubavitch you should be telling them to shape up, or end up following a long line in history, as we've already seen the the downhill march, of those who thought they knew better than others

Anon3 said...

Ein tzudrochner Lubavitcher Yid macht ah hesbed far zein vaib un alle rotzers kumin tzu loifen mit zeir "lomdus" un "pilpulim" Benjy included.

Anonymous said...

Benjy
You try to portray the FR as he said the Cholov Akum statement to hurt Reb Moshe or OU, the FR and the Rebbe had good relationship with Reb Moshe and RYBS of OU,Plus Reb Moshe didnt even write the colev akum teshuva yet.

Anonymous said...

Benjy
Are their no apikorsim that are products from Ponovizh, I remember a journalist that was a talmid of the great Maran a apikoras gomer, who wrote a short biography on his rebbe,Plus what about the apikoras Gedalye Nadel closest talmid of the Chazon Ish who for the last few years was giving shiurim bordering with bible criticism in the holy town of Benai Berak. the rebbe had to say what he thinks about emuna in moshiach since it is the dvar hashem, you will always have some kooks its natural.

Isaac Balbin said...

Benjy,
Let's ask NB to tell us why it's a "must watch". But more to to the point then labelling me, why don't you respond to the specifics?

People move from one group to another. They become litvaks, they become chassidim; whatever. Does it bother you so much? Perhaps the only group that is dwindling are the yekkes, but the reasons for that would seem to be well understood.

Anyway, your attempt to go way off topic has failed.

You've then tried to prick me in respect of the loo loo mechistin. I don't need to answer you specifically, but since you have bated me and attempted to make people think that I have somehow gone quiet on this, I invite YOU to ask Chabadniks if I have mellowed in any way in respect of the trenchant criticism that I continue to express. I don't know who you are because you are unwilling to give your name, but you know, you can come to greenmeadows park on any shabbos between 1 and 2 and you will witness my interaction with these loo loos. Today their response to me was that I was a "posul cohen"

I am not sure what you are talking about in respect of Chalav Yisrael, but I happen to drink it, if that makes you feel better. It has nothing to do with the Rayatz or R' Moshe. In America these days and in Israel there are bigger problems because the Milk is often treyf c"v as per the observations of R' Hershel Schachter who just so happens to be the OU Posek.

Anonymous said...

who are the wagners?

benjy said...

Isaac Balbin,
I was trying to show you how defensive you are:Not Brisk posts a video without stating anything and you immediately go into "defense" mode.
Why?
Because you know very well that there are major problems that you will once again have to be apologetic about.

Would you be upset if a someone close to you came back as a Na-Nach? Well I feel the same way about chabad.

About your misguided attempts to argue with the loo-loos in the park:You know well that those loonies are not the problem, the problem started with Rabbi G and continues with Rabbi T.

What I meant with the cholov stam comment was to show you that Lubavitch can also go around accusing people of causing problems in Emuna, because according to them, drinking cholov stam brings to apikorsus.Basically that means that someone relying on R'Moshe Feinstein is being accused of eating a food that causes pikorsus, undercutting a basic theme of asking your rov what to do.
Lastly, the problem with milk being treif has nothing to do with cholov yisroel, it's whether certain veterinary procedures render a cow and it's milk treif

Isaac Balbin said...

Benjy,
Let's see. NB posts a video "out of the blue" and says it's interesting. I watch it and state that I found nothing interesting. If that's the definition of "defensive" and "apologist" then perhaps YOU should tell us what this innocent video from NB was 'attacking". I repeat, I don't see anything in it.

I'm not about to tell you how you should feel if one of yours became a chabadnik. If you feel that's the same as a Na Nach, then so be it. You expect me to tell you how to feel? I don't know about Na Nachs myself. My only exposure is to people jumping up and down on street corners in Israel.

You then stated that I "should be telling them to shape up" and when I gave an example to indicate that I was not dormant on such issues, you have effectively invited me to engage Rabbi T on the issue. Tell me Benjy, apart from the fact that you ought to be able to do so yourself, what makes you so confident that I haven't and don't continue to engage at that level as well?

I think you are way to quick to label people. Your post proves it.

On the issue of Chalav Stam, surely you also know that timtum resulting from "treyf" is a Ramoh. Perhaps al pi kabolo timtum leads to apikorsus. I don't think that way. I have no issue whatsoever with R' Moshe's psak, I'm also not comfortable with the [chabad] allegation that those who use it bring apikorsus to themselves. I also don't see any issur in trimming a beard. So what am I now, a snag apologist according to your logic?

That being said, milk may well c"v be treyf these days, and if that is the case c"v then we have more significant problems than chalav hacompanies. That will mean timtum for Chabadniks, leshitsom and just because you find such things interesting, I discussed that issue with Rabbi T a few weeks ago.

Why don't you contact me off line and I might actually talk to a face (you seem to be from Melbourne) and you can better understand where I come from, and not make simplistic assumptions with labels. I promise not to reveal your identity. I understand some people worry it will affect their standing and/or chances of shidduchim for their kids if they lurk on the internet using their real names.

benjy said...

Isaac Balbin
I"m engaging you because I know you as a person who tries to be honest and is one of the few people who uses his own name (as does YGB).

I also know that just as "sinah mekalkeles ess hashura", so too "ahavah mekalkeles es hashura",and since you like/love Chabad you apologize for them,just like a loving family member apologizes for the immature behavior of a young or silly member of a family.
However I don't believe that apologetics work long term especially in Lubavitchs' case.

I think that I(also) realize the
impossible situation of arguing with a 62 year old rabbi and trying to make him realize how silly some of his positions are.The reason being is that the need for hero worship in certain people is beyond rhyme and reason and if one could actually "crack" them and show them a challenge to the hero it could break someting very deep in a persons psyche.
(so the way to deal with many Lubavitchers is a serious predicament)

About "timtum halev":I believe the gemorahs derosho on "venitmeisem bom , venitamtem bom" is talking about all aveiros, not just eating non kosher.The Ramo you allude to is probably about not letting a Jewish child feed from a gentile wet nurse.Additionally Tosfos in chulin and other places understand that it's a "genai" letzadik to eat something treif, worse than doing an inadvertent aveira.
I don't how Lubavitch came up with the idea that cholov akum is worse than other issurim.This is obviously not true.A)Cholov Akum is an issur derabonon B)Many Rishoinim and acharoinim hold that if there is no chashash of pig milk being mixed in there is no issur (botel hatam bottel ho'issur)
R'Moshes claim was that even according to the other shittos that the issur is still applicable, it would be mutter today because the law forbids mixing pig milk .To come and tell someone relying on a choshuveh rov that eating this milk would cause apikorsus is hubris.The interesting thing is that when it comes to issur chodosh that according to almost all rishoinim is ossur bechutz lo'oretz(besides one shittah)and most hold it's an issur deoyraysa, Chabad has no interest in keeping chodosh even if it very easibly attainable.

Lastly,I"m not from Melbourne though I"m quite familiar with the place

Isaac Balbin said...

Benjy
you confuse me
you tell me to go to the top and when I inform you that I do you tell me I'm wasting my time with a 62 year old man!

Yes you picked the correct ramoh and I can see you are quite prickly about some Chabad pronouncements and you mention the chalav yisrael one. You think it doesn't bother me because I love them (too much)

You know, a formative moment in my life was when Mori HaRav Abaranok zl was approached one Sunday morning by some heiseh members of anash brandishing the newly published treatise 'hadras ponim zokon' His reaction was dismissive, and he was an ohev yisrael
he told them he didn't need to see a book to know the deyos and he felt it was not sensible hocking that book to his kehilla who shaved anyway. I witnessed him dealing with those chabadniks who stupidly felt they could achieve anything by brandishing the book

Like Chalav Yisrael and other things though Rav Abaranok just thought it was silly in the context
He continued having good relations with Chabad and they with him! This though was a Talmid of the Chafets Chaim

Yours and other posts seem to get annoyed if and when I still try to see the wood from the trees
you call me an apologist consumed by love which has perverted my clear thinking


I prefer the view and attitude of R Aron Soloveitchik