Thursday, June 10, 2010

Chassidus Test - Belz Style

all pages can be clicked and enlarged. The test was given to Belzer bochurim in Israel recently. I'd like to see those who attacked Lubavitch for being "elitist" explain how Belz is any different.















58 comments:

proud&heimish said...

As someone who is completely heimish and goes to rebbe's all the time,i must say that i am shocked by this and at the same time so happy that i was not brought up like this. This sounds like some cultish brainwashing.And the whole superiority thing. uggh! Tzig tell me the truth if in telshe riverdale or some other misnagdishe moisid wud give out such a test abt why their mehalchim are so much better then the derech habaal shem and how the talmidim have to unqueistongly follow the rosh yeshiva i think we'd all be up in arms!

Anonymous said...

belz again on the attack list?
first it was "the big bad Belzers with their Bais Hamikdosh"
whats youre issue with belz
maybe the belzer rebbe not going with the israeli radical right...
or "someone" in yurmet/spinka that got you brainwashed....

Anonymous said...

LOL!!!
As a lubavitcher (geza...) i must say, that although these tests deffintly show that the emphises on Hiskashrus and level of eletisim etc. is very strong in Belz, however:
i personly very much dislike when this type of chinuch is implemented in our circles:
1) first of all inyonim of hiskashrus etc. are dakusdiker things, which can only are reserved only to mature people who ALREADY have a proper yesoid in ikrei hayahdus.
i dont think that these are the type pf things that r' fole khan taght in cheder of tel aviv or r' mendel liader taght in the chadorim oflubavitch.
take a look at the FR's siches and you'll notice that the type of stories he heard AS A CHILD (from the melamed r' nissen or the bobe R' Rivke etc.) were not stories like the that r' eizele said that the rebbe for him is greater the Moshe Rabeinu (which for a mature older person who is ALREADY MECHUNECH, and knows how to take in context, might "hoben an ort") but stories abt toire and yiras shomayim (true, beruach hachsidud). they are differnt to the stories he heard later from Rashbatz and the Feter Razo etc. which concern much more dakusdike inyonim etc.
2)afilu when Ye being taught (after proper yeoides), being by nature pnimyusdiker and dakusdiker inyonim, they should (and alweys were) taughht in a pnimyusdiker way - proper pnimyusidker chsidesher farbringenishen etc. not by teaching dry facts and giving out tests like these.
i can't immagene r' shoil or r' shleime chaim or r' nissen etc. (and also today r' Yeil, or R' meilach zweibell etc.) giving out such tests.
see kerem chabad vol. 3 where R' avrohom mayor relates that in lubavitch only "pikchim" were excepeted vail me'hot gehalten az a nar ken nit zain a chosid... VeDal.

yehupitz said...

Very interesting. I don't think Tzig posted this to make fun of Belz.

What I'd like to see are the Belz-approved answers to the questions. Anyone?

Hoax? said...

someone made this up to shame belz or to boost Lubavitch isolation from other circles
whats the sourse of this any blogist can make this up

Anonymous said...

I would love to see them add this:

Why our Rebbe never says deep torahs.

Why our Rebbe never says maamorim like the Lubatchiver Rebbe

Why we daven so quick compared to almost any other chasid, with davening only taking long because the Belzer Rebbe always goes out for a break in the middle

Why no Belzer Rebbe ever put out a sefer Chasidus

Why Belz changed and dropped so many chumras and compared to Belz over forty years ago and before.

Why our Rebbe refused the shidduch with Klausenburg who demanded he go to Kollel for five years because he knew the Belzer Rebbe had kishroinos but didn't think the Belzer Rebbe had sat enough years dedicated to learning torah full time.

Why our Rebbe is known as a CEO outside of Belz rather than as a Tzadik or Talmid Chacham.

Why our Rebbe is more highly regarded outside chasidish circles than in

Why not one other Rebbe recognised Belz until many years later when he build a huge shul and made lavish bar mitzvahs

Why no other chassidus offered free buses from anywhere in Israel to their simcahs - specifically for non-Belzer chassidim...

Menashe said...

Anonymous 7:05 (how I do love that surname!): your post is especially appropriate in this parsha, where the virtues and fine results of machlokes lishma are expounded upon in every pirush.

Anonymous said...

Menashe,
as a former belzer I can vouch that anon 7;05 is asking legitimate questions,but its my assumption that he is a Machnovker Belzer that are upset on diminishing the image of RYDR of Belz. the answer to the question is simple, Is the Klausenburger of Kiryath Sanz a more universally accepted tzadik? He is a nice talmud chochom but far far from being a rebbe, They are all Roshei Kehila (non profit ceo) with the same nameplates as their Ziedes Kedoshie Elyon

Anonymous said...

If thisis real its a shame. How elitist and supremacist.

baalbatish said...

please give us a commentary on the questions for your non-Belzologist readers?

Mottel said...

Seems all rather chitzonius'dik to me . . .

Anonymous said...

Punkt farkert. In Chabad they wouldn't need to be tested because they get this in the crib.

Anonymous said...

Why do all Belzer's who are asked any questions or fail to see any toichen in their chassidus which can't be found in hundred of other places

Why do more Belzer's learn R' Tzvi Meir's torah than their own Rebbe's ? Why do Belzer's repeat torahs of other Rebbes but never their own ?

Lets face it, Belz is a nice place for those looking to belong somewhere without any major demands. Like Bobov in New York, only because they are based in Israel they are forced to be a little frummer......

The plastic galsses don't go with the semi-modern lifestyle compared to more 'full on' chassidusn like Toldos Ahron, Ger or yes Machnivke ....

I know an Alter Belzer who became modern orthodox after the war. After 40 years he visited Belz and told me they sing, wear sheitels and do so many things that Belz fought against before the war....

The current Belz are the type of 'chassidim' Belz fought before the war. If you are so changed, why are you so insistent on being called Belz...like calling a chicken a tiger ????

Anonymous said...

Re Klausenburg...he looked for torah in sons in law whereas the Vishnitzer looked for Rebbes.

Simple answer is Klausenburg looked for toichen in sons in law not future manhigim...

Maybe he got the opposite in the Netanya Rebbe ?

Menashe said...

Please please at least make up a surname for yourself. It's literally impossible to keep track of who is saying what.

tzvi said...

Tzig how do you know that this isnt made up, and its someones way of bashing belz?
Can you prove its not fake?
If not, ask every Belzer you know for mechila for belittling them and comparing them to Lubavitch R"L.

Anonymous said...

Can you give us a synopsis of this article on the Rebbe in English
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/745886/Rabbi_Dr._Aharon_Lichtenstein/Hesped_for_the_Lubavitcher_Rebbe

Anonymous said...

hey, they learned this from chabad!

Anonymous said...

Hesped for the Lubavitcher Rebbe
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/745886/Rabbi_Dr._Aharon_Lichtenstein/Hesped_for_the_Lubavitcher_Rebbe

Lippy said...

It's copied from Bechadrei Chareidim.
Tzig asked where all the people that criticized Chabad for this type of cultish behaviour.
They are all in the comment section of Bechadrei Chareidim!
Everybody there almost thinks it's shallow,stupid and cultish. (maybe Yehupitz disagrees,though)
Tzig,
What you have done is brought a "ra'aya listor", from the comments on Bechadrei and even on your own blog, it's clear that this type of behavious is considered ridiculous!Ve'idach zil gmor about what most objective non kool-aided people think about the Lubavitch "hiskashres".
Lastly, as laughable as this Belzer nonsense is, there are some important distinctions between Lubavitch and Chabad.Firstly Belz actually has a living rebbe, so as over the top as it is, it still quite different with not allowing the appointment of a new rebbe and continuing a charade of "hiskashrus" (again,I"m quite sure this is not a problem for Yehupitz).Secondly all the Belzers that I know have not drunk this kool-aid.While the Belzer is widely respected by his chasidim and others none that I know have actually turned him into a mini getshkeh, although you never know where this new brainwashing can lead to.So, to summarize, this little test is unbelievably stupid and pathetic!!!

baalbatish said...

Where is the link in Chadrei Chadorim?

browser said...

the truth is,we don't know what or how chasiddus looked 100-150yrs ago,
but one thing we have to admit,that chasiddus now,has turned into nothing but criminaly insane ignorant tribalism,and sometimes even bordering on avodeh zarah.By the way i grew up in chasidishe yeshivah's,and have very warm feelings toward chasidus,
but the truth is the truth.
chaim.s

Lippy said...

Here is the link to the Bechadrei Chareidim article where this "test" was taken from
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=17529&cat_id=2

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't get why I'm accused of lying and fabrications when the bechadrei logo is very prominently displayed here...

all I did was show you some elitism from another group.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:43
why didn't the Klausenburger in his will put his son inlaws as the Rebbes of Sanz, and instead he put the 2 sons? If Sanz is torah only then his SIL would be the real candidate. I like the story of the MO belzer that returned to belz after 40 years and realized that Belz went thru a major transformation, eventough it never happened but the Miese iz a Gutter

Anonymous said...

I don't see anything wrong with this Belz Chassidus test, its facing the truth head on. all thats listed on the test are being done by chasidim, Until today it was kept in the world of hergeshim and chasidim were smart enough to get the message. But as the way chasidim are today they are building Kehilas and vast institutions with 1000's of families are under their roof from cradle to grave, then certain sensitive issues will have to be aired in the open. Which basically the AR did with his Philosophy of Chassidus. A chasidsher yungerman has to know why he is a chosid today.

Sammy said...

Chassidus and chasidim are bankrupt.It's just a bunch of shallow nepotists dressed in 16th century garb.I liked the part explaining/asking why you may not question the leader.Funny.A cult trying to follow up on Lubavitchs' success as a cult

russian chusid said...

EVERETHING I WANTED TOSAY WAS ALREADY SAID BY PEOPLE BEFORE ME-
ALTS IS CHITSOINIYUS AND THIS IS NOT ELITISM-IT IS PUTING CHASIDUS ON THE PAPER, WHICH IS B.S

By the way, what happens to a bachur which fails this test? :) mshikt em in Ponovich tsim eigel hazohov? :)

Robert said...

While the test questions are indicative of a particular mindset, perhaps the answer key would be more illuminating.

answers said...

Let's see the answers!!

Anonymous said...

Stupid question: How do they fit the answers to some of those questions on such few lines? The give 3 (count them 3!!) for the difference between chassidus and mussar.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

that was a smart question!

maybe there's only 3 line's worth of difference after all. And they tend to be overly generous with lines. Maybe one line was enough...

I do not have the answer ley

Disapointed said...

THIS is what the Bal Shem Tov came for?? Tzig - be honest here, this elitism is horrible and Lubavitch DOES suffer from this as well (lifelong Lubavitcher here, so please dont tell me I dont know what Im talking about). Do you think the Besht came to bring along dynatsic kingdoms with all the crap that comes along with it? The Ruzhiner with all his wealth? The Belzers with their tacky monstrosity of a Shul? These people ARE NOT Chassidim. They may dress like them, and even talk like them...but this is NOT what the Baal Shem Tov had in mind.

Feivel ben Mishael said...

Chas v' Shalom for you to open your mouth against the Heiliger Ruzhiner.
From a misnaged such comments can be expect, but from someone who calls themselves a Lubavitcher???

What the Baal Shem Tov intended is none of your business. If you are a Lubavitcher then be a Lubavitcher but don't open up your mouth to cast aspersions and think you know what it is all about.
Shame on you.

Everyone here is up in arms and crying foul because of elitism.
As if elitism was objectively wrong? If you want to argue, argue. Don't just shout claims and then reiterate them. Most of you behave like uneducated children R"L and Hashem have mercy on you.

You are real elitists because you think only you yourself are the elite. Of course there is R' Elyashiv, and R' Kanievsky but there is a YOU too. And you hear what you want to hear from them.

Atleast by Chassidim everyone within our own group is the elite.

Good Shabbos

Disapointed said...

Hey Feivel:

1) The "Heiliger" Ruzhiner, eh? There were quite a few people back then, including the Divrei Chaim who didnt share your sentiment.

2) What the Baal Shem Tov intended is most definately my business, as it is the business of every Jew. Anyone with an even casual awareness of the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov can realize that he didnt come to create a caste system ruled by omnipotent and infallible rulers.

3) Again, is the fact the Baal Shem Tov opposed everything elitism stands for in Jewish life meaningless to you? Do you honestly believe that the Besht would approve if he were to be shown questions of this type on why they are better than other Jews?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

disappointed:

zei shtill. the divrei chaim's issue was with the ruzhiner's children and eyniklach, not with him.

Sammy said...

"disappointed:

zei shtill."

"the divrei chaim's issue was with the ruzhiner's children and eyniklach, not with him."

Ok,
Therefore Disappointed stands or not?

All frimeh./frummeh/lubob whatever you want to call them are elitists.
The Besht's way is bankrupt and had been so one for a long time

Feivel ben Mishael said...

@ Dissappointed:

The Derech HaBaal Shem Tov is inherently elitist. The Baal Shem Tov holds that everyone MUST learn/do/spread chassidus. Therefore, those who do are more elite bnogea that. The Besh"t was against person elitism. The kind where you hold that you are better than some other person. Yes if you think that personally you are better than any given Jew just because you are part of group X that is wrong because it is impossible to make a cheshbon measuring yourself against a different person. However, once can unequivocally believe that their derech is the best or "elite" or whatever you want to call it and therefore as a group or whatever we can say Lubavitch > everything else or Our Rebbe > any other tzaddik. Whatever.

Your reassertion of "anyone with even a casual awareness of the teaching ofs the Besh"t can realise that he did not come to create a caste system ruled by omnipotent and infallible rulers is not a logical statement, but just a repetition of an unsubstantiated claim mixed with an ad homonym.

Feivel ben Mishael said...

*ad hominem

Anonymous said...

Tzig do a post on this Hesped from Rabbi Soloveichiks Son In Law
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/745886/Rabbi_Dr._Aharon_Lichtenstein/Hesped_for_the_Lubavitcher_Rebbe

shea said...

Anon 12:40
Yishar Koach for the link to R'Lichtensteins hesped.A wonderful appreciation of Chabad and the Rebbe.
I say this despite being no fan of Lubavitch.
This hesped is of course not for the Tzigs blog, firstly because it is way to rational and not written with "hiskashres"

Not a Belzer chossid said...

I am not a Belzer chosid, but I have been admiring the Belzer Rebbe’s activities. He is a no-nonsense guy who attacks problems head-on with programs and common sense. He has not been the elitist who creates structures that feed his kavod. I cannot believe that the “test” is more than someone’s satire, though it is rather interesting. Perhaps every chassidus should take the test, substituting their own ID instead of Belz.

In reality, chassidus was intended to be a powerfully internal spiritual boost, with the externals only serving to stimulate the internal. It is all about avodas Hashem and dveikus. Unfortunately, as the generations progressed, there was loss of the ikrim, and the focus on chitzoniyus grew. The crowds of Chassidim, which were not that huge before WWII (with few exceptions), were manageable, with rebbes capable of tending to their flocks with personal guidance in avodas Hashem. In America, and subsequently in E”Y, the groups typically grew in size, becoming impossible to minister in terms of avodas Hashem. We witness the preoccupation with chitzoniyus, actually utter foolishness. Issues of trivia (micro-minhagim, uniform dress codes, public displays, and much pomp and ceremony) have reached unimaginable proportions. Photos and media are almost more important than divrei chassidus. It sickens me to watch this. I am powerless to reverse this cultural trend, as it exists everywhere. It is alarming to see what chassidim today choose as subjects on which to “bother” their rebbes.

אין לנו על מי להשען אלא על אבינו שבשמים. All I can do is make my own personal effort to keep my focus on myself, while utilizing my kesher with my Rebbe shlit”a as a guide to be a better oveid Hashem.

I do not think the message of this post should be about Belz. There are quite a few “chassidishe groups” that emerged in the past several years that were not known just 20 years ago. In some cases, a Ruv suddenly was declared to be an Admor, with corresponding pomp everywhere he walks. There is a circus-like atmosphere that accompanies all of this, and I have little reason to believe that the Besh”t has anything to do with this.

Source Please said...

Blogger Feivel ben Mishael said...The Baal Shem Tov holds that everyone MUST learn/do/spread chassidus.
Source Please
First or Second hand source Please

Feivel ben Mishael said...

The Besh"t wrote to his brother-in-law R' Gershon Kitover about an experience where he entered the upper realms and enterered the heichal of Moshiach. He asked Moshiach "when will you come?" Moshiach answered "When your wellsprings are spread outwards"
i.e. when your derech, chassidus, is spread to the outside (the places it has not yet penetrated.)
This letter is printed in Kesser Shem Tov, as well as Toldos Yaakov Yosef.

So according to the Besh"t Moshiach will come as a result of the spreading of Chassidus.

There is a Midrash which says that the purpose of the creation of the world was that Hashem desired a dwelling place in the lower worlds.
This is the divine revelation which will occur by the Geula. The Geula is dependant on the coming of Moshiach.

So according to the cheshbon of the Besh"t in order for the ultimate purpose of creation to be fulfilled, Chassidus needs to be spread outwards.

If you think chappen people to Lubavitch is a new thing you are misinformed. Chassidim have been trying to convert non-chassidim from day one.

Russian Chusid said...

Disapinted,

If you are Lubavitcher, i am a christian. Do not you know what Tzemach Tsedek said on the Heiliger Rizhiner? Do you know in which esteem all the Lubavitcher Rebbes holded dem Rizhiners kinder und einiklach? Or may be you are disappointed in whole chasidus? Then everything is crap (h'v) including BSHT, Magid, Baal Hatanya etc.

Anonymous said...

Feivel ben Mishael said...There is a Midrash which says that the purpose of the creation of the world was that Hashem desired a dwelling place in the lower worlds.
This is the divine revelation which will occur by the Geula. The Geula is dependant on the coming of Moshiach.
why do you need to bring the above into the so called Besht Chesbon
and where is the source that only when meshiach will come will Hashem have a dwelling on this world and None before

yoshe kalb said...

While residing in Tel Aviv, I had a chance to get acquainted with the local Belser Cheider, most probably the first Belser institution to be founded after the churban by Reb Ahrale zy'a himself. It is a known fact that there is NOT one single graduate in more than 60 years of that Cheider's existence that is not religious ( maybe not chassidish, but still observant ).
This is the real test and Bels took it with flying colours.
BTW let me just remind you how Rabbonei Anash kissed up to the Belser some twenty years ago when he broke away from the Eidah Chareidis. But this should be the subject of another blog.

Anonymous said...

Hi tzig i was wondering if you were by the rubashkin asifa last week in monsey. And if you were what were your thoughts on it?

Anonymous said...

the letter of likisheyafutzu has to be read unril the end, vyuchlu lasos yichidim kamocha.... the letter says nothing about giving out candles on the sunset strip etc...

schneur said...

What was the chidush of the Besht ? Chitzonius ?
Pilpulim and constant learning (that existed prior to the hisgalus)If a blatt gemora is Chassiius as the Divre Chaim said , all of todays chassidim should sign up in Chevron or Ponieisz because they do it better.
Mefsim - plenty of baale mofsim and Baale Shem prior to the Besht.
Rebbes and Zaddikim - I hope not
One gets lots of double speak as to what Chassidius was mechadesh. Did the Besht even know of the concept of zaddikism ?
At least Chabad has an ideoplogical shitah in principle.Bratzlav has a unique derech . BUt what are the other groups about today? Most of them are really followers of the Chasam Sofer (not the Besht) and are into chadash assur min hatorah, are anti modern , but what is it that they are for ,rather than against?In fact most Chassiidc groups today hail from the schools of the Divre Chaim and the peylisher schools of Psischa (both different from each other) who were relly counter reformists as to the real school of the Besht and thats why the groups who are closest to some real Chassidus hail from Russia Ruzhin, Stolin , Slonim they never went through a serious counter reformation as did Chassidus in Poland and Galicia.But after all my talk the kasha remains Mai Chassidus ?

Yuk said...

Feivel,

You might be a nice guy and not an oicher yisroel. Besides for the fact that Reb Yoilesh had a different interpratation of Chasidus and brining Moshiach - we will put that on the burner. Maybe only those who truly understand Chasidus will bring the geulah, not someone who yaps about "two energies"? Maybe only someone who is old enough, mature enough, rayn enough, and learns it like it should be learned, brings the Messiah by studying it?

The Snags have a mesorah that says that it unnecessary to learn Chasidus (in order to bring Moshiach). How do you know that your Mesorah is right (the only one) just because your zeydah happened to believe that?

To qualify: you think Reb Chaim Kanievsky is against the tachlis of the briyah because he doesn't learn Hasidus (presumably you think you are doing more to bring Moshiach - maybe your guy). How do you know that? Maybe his mesorah is the right one?

Anonymous said...

agav, r chaim kanievsky VERY MUCH LEARNS CHASIDUS, not chabad perhaps, but the tora of his fathers rebbes and zaides is quite familiar to him to say the least....

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch is elitist, and (if this is true,) Belz is elitist. Two wrongs don't make a RIGHT!

Anonymous said...

Yoshe Kalb

The cheder in Tel Aviv was not the first Mossad,
I know personally some Alumni that are total not religous, from that Mossad

The Tel Aviv Mossad was run most of the time by the Belz Machnufke faction, till he forcefully grabbed it.

Chabad in Israel always had a lukewarm relationship with the Eida, it was the opposite, Belz in these days was in the dumps they needed any body or group that wants to listen, Remember, even their great friend Rav Shach signed then with the old Stiepler a Kol Koreh against them, (the BB Idiots printed it in Kriena Deigrese voil 1)

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
"But after all my talk the kasha remains Mai Chassidus ?"
the concept of the tzadik as the center of your life is definitely a Beshtonian concept but the question is much bigger that if you have no Tzadik in the sense what the Noam Elimelech or the Toldos Yakov Yossef describe a Tzadik, then the Kasha gets stronger Mai Chassidus? the long rekkel does not preserve more Judaism then the short jacket of a Lakewood Yungerman,

Anonymous said...

Not a Belzer
"He is a no-nonsense guy who attacks problems head-on with programs and common sense"
its all a farce, he does not have less people of the derech or less divorces then Skwerer, Viznitzer, Machnuvker and Satmarer? he likes to portray a rambo no nonsense facade but he got nowhere with it

yoshe kalb said...

Anon of 10:57: If you are so well informed, which was the first Belser institution? Also, please be informed, that after Reb Ahrale's petiroh there was no Machnovka, maybe some Alte Bels. Again, as far as I know, no "Upgefuhrene" graduates of the Belser Cheider in T.A.

Anonymous said...

Yoshe,
I know Machnufke is a new term, the cheder in BB was I think established before, plus the Yeshiva started when his brother the Bilgrayer was still alive, he died Cheshvon 1950