Wednesday, November 6, 2013

....הרב עובדי' הבין עם מי יש לו עסק כאן

It was good for "business" so he went with Degel, but his heart wasn't in it... Oy, how much nonsense in one letter...

61 comments:

Yehupitz said...

That's actually the first letter, of a few, that showed me that he was a gornisht. And that's before I knew anything about Lubavitch.

bochur said...

In The 1st letter he כביכול has a legitimate taane but the 2nd letter is completely ridiculous just spewing hatred without reason I thought i was reading the Koran

עפרא לפומך said...

Every single word he wrote is Toras Emes. He saved klal yisroel and has been vindicated a million times over.

Curious said...

Why should we believe that these are ray hagahos?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you don't have to believe

Curious said...

On the second letter he had no comment because he agreed

Rosh Hakolel said...

Afra Lepimuch
"Every single word he wrote is Toras Emes. He saved klal yisroel and has been vindicated a million times over."
I also held like this, until I saw Reb Chaim Kanievsky, and Rav Shtienman, say that all Anshie Moron, should hang themselves, Zokan Mimrehs, Chiev Sekila....
please don't believe me, listen to the tapes and videos (Mareis Kiedesh)

Rosh Hakolel said...

Curios
"On the second letter he had no comment because he agreed"
The first half of the letter he agrees for sure is the same hate-mongering diatribe as the first one, the 2nd letter he has no problem neither ,since he writes that you can celebrate Israeli Independence Day with a Berocha less Hallel

Rosh Hakolel said...

Afra Lepimoch
No read what Reb Chaim said
"השואלים: היום שמעתי כאן מחכם אחד בבני ברק שדיבר בציבור ואמר שאין שום בעיה להצביע למפלגת "עץ", כיוון שיש בשמם אדם גדול, כיוון שיש להם אדם גדול שעומד בראשם וזה לא נקרא פגיעה בראש ישיבה ר' אהרן לייב שאומר להצביע ג'. רצינו לשאול מה דעתו של הרב?

הגר"ח קנייבסקי: מה זה מפלגת "עץ"?

השואלים: המפלגה השנייה, לא של הרב שטיינמן, של ירושלים !

הגר"ח קנייבסקי: (בכעס) תגיד להם שהוא זקן ממרא !

השואלים: שהוא זקן ממרא? זאת אומרת שזה כנגד דעתו של הראש ישיבה, אפילו שזה כמו מחלוקת ב"ש וב"ה?

הגר"ח קנייבסקי: מגיע לו סקילה!

השואלים: במה זה שונה ממחלוקת ב"ש וב"ה?

הגר"ח קנייבסקי: זקן ממרא! נו?

השואלים: ב"ש שלא מקבל את דעתו של ב"ה, הוא מוגדר כזקן ממרא?

הגר"ח קנייבסקי: ב"ש היה בן אדם והם לא בני אדם, הם בהמות!

השואלים: יישר כח.
do you need harsher words then this...

dovy in j said...

can you explain a little better what you find to be nonsensical about the letter (or did you only mean the comment on the side is nonsense?)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

he sounds like a silly mesivta bochur.

They're gonna pasken from the Rambam from now on?

The Rebbe created Yud Tes Kislev?

you want more?

chabad.org said...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/357752/jewish/Special-Dates-on-the-Chabad-Chassidic-Calendar.htm

this is what Rav Shacj zatzal meant

chabad.org said...

agav, they dont list gimmel tammuz amongst all the other chabad holidays. is it not the day the rebbe left the hospital? regardless of where he went, it should be noted.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and the problem with the calendar is???

chabad.org said...

the calendar ommited gimmel tamuz. any hunch as to why?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no idea

leroy said...

Tammuz 3-June 11, 2013
Yahrtzeit of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson

Chabad. Org said...

טעיתי
Or they just fixed it. (unlikely)

Just didn't see it.

berl, crown heights said...

What a dumb ferd he was! "They are going to pasken from the Rambam"...

And just look hat became of his "legacy". Current Litvisher gedolim like Rav Shteinman and Rav Kanevsky – while they might not openly say anything against him – have completely moved away from his derech hasino vemachloikes and are calling his real yorshim the names that they he deserved all along. Vayaas hoeitz!!! :)

berl, crown heights said...

(obviously, my comment was about "sach", not Rav Ovadya)

pesach said...

Tzig,
I wonder what you would say if someone blogged about The Rebbe and wrote the things you wrote(and allowed) about him.
To get respect you need to give respect

bedford ave said...

I guess I"m very krum.I don't see any nonsense here.Sorry.
The Takona of limmud Haramba"m?
99% just read it like Tehillim.I"ve discussed Ramba"m with many Lubavitchers who have made numerous siyumim, yearly or once in three years and don't see that they are any wiser because of it.Where are all the seforim that shoul have been published because of thirty years of siyummim?

And yes...
Where did the Meshichists come out of? (and how did the tiny cult of borenuniks come about?)
So if you there think that there is nothing wrong with Meshichists, I am indeed krum.If you think that the Meshichists and the ideology they present is problematic, it may have started because something in the lubavitch theology was not so right.

Hey Teveis:Never understood how a win in a secular court over a family member became a yom tov.

I don't know why Hirshel is choosing to rehash old fights.
I think we've kinda learned to live with each other

yehupitz said...

Berl is right. The unspoken point here is that Rav Shteinman and to a lesser degree R'Chaim were embarrassed by that derech all along that consumed the Israeli yeshiva velt for the better part of two sad decades that led to hatred spewing venom; and finally only now after R' Elyashiv's petira, that the attitude is twice removed, feel comfortable in rejecting it. R'Shmuel Auerbach sees that and wants to go back to something like the old 72's-92's sinah-kanaus, which is ironically the opposite of his father's derech. I guess he's paskening "aveidas aviv v'aveidas rabo..."

And as far as the second letter, I think the velt's criticism of the moshichism would have gone somewhere had it not been preceded by 20 or so years of attacking Chabad for breathing etc.

I don't have the time or inclination, but someone could go over that letter like a peirush Rashi and show the childish taunting and bitter hatred over every phrase. Ashreinu that most of the yeshivishe velt has tried to forget him and move on. Even though R'Chaim's rhetoric and pledges of loyalty is way over the top for my taste, I hope on some level some of it succeeds in turning Bnei Torah away from "Bnei Torah".

a briske lamden said...

bedford ave: "99% just read it like Tehillim." so then how can they pasken if they don't know what it says??? idiots...

Kitzur Shulchan Orech Jew said...

Bedford ave
"99% just read it like Tehillim.I"ve discussed Ramba"m with many Lubavitchers who have made numerous siyumim, yearly or once in three years and don't see that they are any wiser because of it.Where are all the seforim that shoul have been published because of thirty years of siyummim?"
Happy to see Mister Bochen testing Jews on their Torah Knowledge,
Did you test all the Jews that came out of the Daf Yomi siyums too? or are you testing all Gerers on their Yerushalmi too?
The Rebbe said 1000 times, the reason to learn Rambam is,plain and simple as the Rambam stated in his gevaldige Hakdomah that every Jew should learn my Sefer Hayad Kakoten Kagodal, instead of Gemorah.(obviously he did not know the deep torah that will come out from the Avi ezri house)The Misnagdim like only the hakdomas Harambam for the Matikie Shemua list, and enjoy squabbling who is added to the Matikae shemua list and who is out, obviously now the Eitz party and their Zokan Mimrie are out.
The 2nd reason the Rebbe stated was, for the words of the Alte rebbe in his Shulchan Orech h'Talmid torah that every Jew has to go thru Kol Hatorah Kuloi, and Rambam fulfills that goal.
Now can you explain what this MORON went berserk? he wrote a letter that makes him in to a fool,even if he wants to stop Meshchisten,(which is a retroactive lie) he still is obligated to produce a letter with some sense.....
I see that Mister Bochen is desperate for new chidushim on Rambam, I assume he finished all Avi ezri, and is ready to be tested, I would advise him to contact Rabbi Gerlitzky for his 1100 kovtziom which each has 2 or more chidushim on Rambam, written since takunas Harambam by Bucherim Ball Batim or shluchim....

troy ave. said...

Bedford ave
"Hey Teveis:Never understood how a win in a secular court over a family member became a yom tov."
at least you are fine with Yud Tes Kislev? I se you jumped to Hey Teves,why is yud Tes Kislev fine? is Rav Shach argument weak?

Superintendant Chalmers said...

KSO Jew
"even if he wants to stop Meshchisten,(which is a retroactive lie)..."

If you think it's a retroactive lie that the opposition was due to the Messianism, and the general cult of personality surrounding the Rebbe (which resulted in A"Z, r"l), what then was the reason for opposition? And please don't just insult Rav Shach, that's not an answer. I want to know, if you honestly believe it wasn't about the messianism, then what was it about?

a briske lamden said...

Superintendant Chalmers: "And please don't just insult Rav Shach, that's not an answer.I want to know, if you honestly believe it wasn't about the messianism, then what was it about?", practice what you preach dude you just insulted him yourself, if his problem was messianism then for him to go for that reason and bash everything else the rebbe said is what my 2 year old brother does please some "kovoid hatorah"!!!... shoite!!!

Anonymous said...

IMHO the recent litvish civil war is being misunderstood by everyone.

it really goes back to the kahaneman/markowitz war in ponovitz.
RCK and RALS supported kahanaman, while R' eliyashev supported quietly markowitz. it sounds strange being RCK is the aidem, but this how it went down.
as long as he lived, it was quiet. when he was niftar, the war was on, and the only question was on what issue will it break out openly.
an insider gave me the whole picture recently, and there's alot more to it but this is the basic story.

shmuly said...

Yehupitz,
You sound like a hater.

Aristocrat said...

Chalmers
Was Reb Chaim Grieniman a meshichist?
Was reb Mechel Fienstien a AZ R"L?
Was Reb Ovadia Yossef learning too much Rambam?
This humble Tzadik, had a dream that he has to be the only Daas in town, and slashed and burned every power that did not yield to him.
Did I explain it nicely?

Boteach said...

shmuly
"Yehupitz,
You sound like a hater."
So which Hate part should he Join,
Shtienman or Auerbach?

dovy in j said...

sorry I read the comments here. never realized what a bunch of nasty losers you guys mostly are. i seriously hope you don't represent typical chabad.

shmuly said...

I think he is a unique hater.Maybe open up a party all of his own with yes men.

shulem said...

"The Rebbe said 1000 times, the reason to learn Rambam is,plain and simple as the Rambam stated in his gevaldige Hakdomah that every Jew should learn my Sefer Hayad Kakoten Kagodal, instead of Gemorah"

Krumme kop.
So nobody ever saw this Hakdomo before? (btw kudos to you for giving Ramba"m haskomo.You called it a "gevaldige" hakdoma)
Why wasen't the Bal Hatanya mesaken this tikkun godol?
Btw, I almost fell off the chair reading this pearl: "The 2nd reason the Rebbe stated was, for the words of the Alte rebbe in his Shulchan Orech h'Talmid torah that every Jew has to go thru Kol Hatorah Kuloi, and Rambam fulfills that goal."
So bebbing Rambam like a parrot means you "learned kol hatora kulo"?
You are on crack.You and Torontos mayor probably go to the same farbrengens

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Shulem? Likes to use the word "bebeh" for some reason. He uses it wherever and whenever he can. It's his crack.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

So can we finally come to terms here that the reasons given in this letter are silly and lies?

Superintendant Chalmers said...

Aristocrat,

Please. Are you really comparing the milchama against Chabad to what happened with Rav Michel, RCG, and ROY?

Rav Ovadya defied Rav Shach publicly. And still did not get an ounce of the milchama that Chabad got. Just be honest with yourself that it was the messianism. Are you really so blinded by your hate of Rav Shach that you can't admit this one simple fact?

Superintendant Chalmers said...

As far as "briske lamdan" is concerned -

Kol Haposel was never so apt...

yosef said...

Yehupitz takes the Nobel prize for apologetics

disppointed said...

Heshy,
These letters are thirty years old.What gives??
What made you decide to publish them
now? They were not hidden letters,right?

Me thinks that this gives credence to the claim that you are a paid p.r pumper for Chabad.Just like litestone.
Chabad needed to steer away some negative talk,maybe? Rick Jacobs?

Two posters who almost never post here, at least in the last couple of years , even on some of the more substantive posts, suddenly show up,to blast rav shach ("sach"according to one of the mockers, gornisht according to another leidigayer)
Berl CH and Yehupetz just suddenly chimed in?
Paid bashers.
Heshy I"m disappointed you stoop so low

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Whatgives is that they were part of Rav ovadiA's library and his ksav yad in the margin is whatmade the news. Does that bust your conspiracy theory, my friend? it was just discovered.good shabbos, holy brother

(little bit less) disapointed said...

Sorry,
I never realized that.
I wonder if I may be the only one.
I"m not happy with the post nonetheless, because we've been thru this machloikess and no need for name calling and reignition.

Have a great shabbos!

Ashkenazi Veloi Litvak said...

Disapointed
Rav shach left a stain on too many souls, with his negativity, Just an example, why do you think A institution like art scroll will think twice before they will quote a vort of the Rebbe, in any of their works, as ramban, midrash, shas, or in their multiple biographies of gedolim of later years.
It is all the Chiet Hakadmon, what Rav Shach plowed in this mushy heads for 3 decades,
Every thing that could be done to repair that damage, is a Choiv Kodosh to do..and will be a alias neshoma for Rav Shach..
If you have better suggestions how to repair this damage you are welcomed.. Their is noting better then posting a Ksav Yad of a yid ( that was also maligned by his hate machine)that just had a levaye of a million or less yiden, saying that Rav shach words are Shtusim and against halocha..

yonasan said...

"Just an example, why do you think A institution like art scroll will think twice before they will quote a vort of the Rebbe, in any of their works, as ramban, midrash, shas, or in their multiple biographies of gedolim of later years."

I will put it down civilly, but truthfully.
Artscroll, has managed just fine without quoting the Rebbe.There is no question that Artscroll, is the largest and most succesful English and frum publishing house.
What Lubavitch, who don't lack money to hire talent in house and from outside have not and probably will never be able to do.
Reasons?
You can speculate.
My speculation:Artscroll may exclude a few,Lubavitch excludes EVERYONE.There is only the Rebbe.
I"m tired of hearing Lubavitcher mistruths that Kehos is "only" a Lubavitch publication house, but Artscroll HAS to publish everyone?>
If you Lubavitchers don't like it, you can publish your own Talmud,Ramban, etc etc.
If not stop criticizing and bothering everyone.
BTW, The Frenkel edition of Rambam is a masterpiece.Especially the index (mafteach)despite not one mention of the Rebbe.
So apparently one can produce masterpieces sans lubavitch input.
Aderaba, as the Rebbe himself said:kinas sofrim tarbeh chochma.Publish your own NON LUBAVITCHER works.Why can't you?
Funny thing is it took a man who is a relative latecomer, to Lubavitch to kind of self publish a Lubavitcher Chumash that was well recieved

Anonymous said...

Rav Miller's chumash is an outstanding work. Unfortunately, it appears you can no longer buy it in the individual chumash format.

Avromy said...

The Lubavitchers and Yehupitz who are up in arms about this letter are right.It's poorly written!
It would not win rewards for creative writing.
BUT, in typical latter day Lubavitcher fashion they are focusing on the חיצוניות.
The fact is he was right.
This takono was just a copycat attempt at copying the wildly popular and Torah building idea of Daf Hayomi, then you had the haloch yomis, mishna yomis and the "only" thing left was Rambam yomi.
The difference between all these types of learning is that they actually build a persons learning.You cannot get away with parroting a blatt gemora.It is usually attended bedibuk chaveirim at a shiur .Eventually a person will biuld up his learning abilities.Rambam yomi has almost zero toeles.It never caught on in non Lubavitch circles and never will.So precious time and resources are wasted to prove that Lubavitch "can also" come up with torah learning ideas

sruly said...

"Rav Miller's chumash is an outstanding work."

It was not published by kehos.
First sefer published by Chabad that has any chance of becoming widely used by non Lubavitchers.First time that non Lubavitchers will be able to opine on the rebbes torah thoughts.The jury is still out on it

yitzchak said...

Rav Ovadyas note on the left side margin? What is he trying to say, if it's him at all.
Who did not know that this is addressing the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and why would he need to write this in the margins anyway?
Lubavitchers probably photo shopped it

not a satmar, said...

Siyum Harambams are just another way for Chabad to give podium and mizrach access to all the kovod starved non lubavitcher chasidishe rebbelach, who need this kovod to sustain their empty lives and it pays dividends. Sometimes they manage to reel in a naive ruv, who does not realize that Lubavitch meinen zich in nor zich

leiby said...

While all the lubobs and wannabes were jumping on the bandwagon to curse and mock, nobody cared to take note what the Húngaros WHO runs the blog is actually saying!
He is actually accusing Reb Ovadia of going with Rav Shach because in his own words. "it was good for business".
Afro lepimech menivel
Medechatzif kuleh hai.....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I eat dust from fools like you for breakfast. bring it on!

leiby said...

So you accuse Reb Ovadia of being an oppurtunist
And you are still proud of your sorry self?
Afro lepimech!
Just a potty blogger like the menivulem Shoulson et Shmarya

Oilomoi Shel Aba said...

Leiby
"Medechatzif kuleh hai....."
why are you accusing Hirshel?
he is no einikel of the Baba Y...L

Anonymous said...

Hesh,

the comments here are like living in a trash can. FECH. I am getting sick reading them (it has been a couple of months).

Please use your koychos for something a little more positive, no?

Anonymous said...

So what we see is that Rav Ovadia actually read Rav Shach's letters. He comments here not too negatively, just does not agree. He does not see any chiddush in learning Rambam al haseder. he does not call Rav Shack infantile names or say anything about "nonsense". You are so insecure, you run and grab any non-chabadster that says anything remotely supporting chabad and magnify and distort what they actually say.

Michoel

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

thank you, Michoel

come see us again soon, ya hear?

Anonymous said...

You're quite welcome.


Michoel

Barry Jacobson said...

By ROY using word "chidush", he meant that the LR was not mechadesh anything that was in any way negative or controversial. Therefore, anybody who picked on the LR was harping on nonsense. it was a perfectly fine idea, and is consistent with kol hashoneh halachos...

Yoni said...

Check this out:

http://classic.frumteens.com/topic.php?topic_id=20164&forum_id=38&topic_title=Note+for+Tzorich+Iyun&forum_title=Notes+from+Moderator!&M=0

The issue with the Rambam Yomi is quite simple.

The Rambam can be learned 2 ways:
1) As a halachah sefer
2) as a commentary on the Gemora

If you learn it as #2, then you shouldnt follwo the order of the Rambam but rather the order of the Gemora and then see how the Rambam understood the Gemora to reach his halachic conclusion. Unless youre going to learn the sugya and then follow it down to the Rambam, you cant use the Rambam this way. It would be like learning Ritva straight without the sugyos. Rambam Yomi clearly does not make sense this way - its like learning Ritva yomi (actually Ritva Yomi would make more sense, since the Ritva at least follows the order of the Gemora, but the Rambam follwos his own seder, which means youre skipping from sugya to sugya). Doesnt make sense.

That leaves (2). But the Rambam as a Halachah sefer is not a good idea since we often do not pasken like the Rambam. So it's like learning let's say the Shulchan Aruch without the Rama or if youre a sefardi, so at best you know that the halochos that you are learning are not necessarily what you should follow - so whats the point? better go learn halachah thats designed for you - and the danger is that you will not realize that something you learned in this halachah sefer is assur for you to follow, and you will follow it anyway.

So if you take Rambam yomi and instruct every Tom Dick and Harry to learn this halachah sefer that really isnt applicable haalchicly in many instances, youre inviting trouble in terms of people following something even though they shouldn't.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

look who the wind blew in!