Friday, October 20, 2006

Rabbi Freifeld and Lubavitch


?מי יודע

According to this article in Answers.com/Wikipedia about HaRav Hutner:

"His students included Rabbis: Yonasan David (his son-in-law) and Aharon Schechter, his successors as Rosh Yeshivas of Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin; .......... Pinchas Stolper of the Orthodox Union and founder of NCSY who followed Rabbi Hutner's guidelines in setting up this youth outreach movement; Avrohom Davis, founder of the Metzudah religious books series; Shlomo Freifeld who set up the one of the first full-time yeshivas for Baal teshuva students in the world, and who personally maintained an open relationship with Lubavitch; ............................. Yaakov Perlow, the Novominsker Rebbe of Boro Park; ....................Noah Weinberg founder and head of the Baal teshuva outreach conglomerate called Aish Hatorah and his brother Yaakov Weinberg of Ner Israel Yeshiva in Baltimore; ....................

:וויל איך וויסען אזוי

Can anybody tell me if this piece is true; if Rabbi Freifeld did maintain a "Relationship" with Lubavitch, and what this relationship consisted of? Also, why was he the only one that did maintain that relationship and others like Weinberg from Aish are sworn rabid enemies of Lubavitch?

In the Sukkos English Mishpachah there's a lenghty article about RSF, but I read only parts of it, and I don't believe that connection is mentioned. What I do see from the article in Wikipedia is that Harav Hutner basically copied everything there was from Lubavitch, from the מאמרים to the Tishen to the outreach, with many of his Talmidim starting groundbreaking outreach Organizations, including the Metsudah Publications, NCSY, Aish and and She'or Yoshuv.

.........אבי ער האט געשריגען אז ליובאוויטש איז טרייף

37 comments:

ex-Detroiter said...

I never heard tha he said that Lubavitch is treif. But if he did, he obviously wasn't referring to the maamorim, kiruv, tishen etc - but some of the other ideas and actions of Lubavitch - which many frum Jews are not goyres..

Anonymous said...

and now you're the big lubavitcher make up your mind. A better suggestion, it's 11:10, go to sleep now and daven like a mentch tomorrow it's rosh chodesh, make a fresh start (and e"tk delete this shameful blog).

Hirshel Tzig said...

Now I have my own built in Mussar Zogger, aye?

ex-Detroiter: how would you know about Rabbi Freifeld at all? are you a Talmid?

Anonymous said...

I don't think I would want that as a steady job...

Hirshel Tzig said...

Is that because the work would be strenuous, or for lack of steady work?

bpunbound said...

I had never heard that RSF had a connection with Chabad.

But RYH Hisnagdus goes way back. I heard directly from a Talmid Muvhak that went to a Fabrengen for a Schmeck, this is the late Yuds-early Chofs, that when the Maran got wind of it, he gave him the silent treatment for a week then told him if he goes there again he can find himself another Yeshiva.

Don't know for sure, maybe an inferioty complex or maybe afraid the cat would get out of the bag (re: the noshing vun anderer) but it got real cool real fast after the nesius.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Thanks BP.

I do find it interesting that the writer of the above-referenced article seems to be quite knowledgeable about Yeshiva CB and the life and times of Rav Hutner, so much so that he even goes as far as to say that RYH didn't go University in order to obtain a degree, chas vesholom, but rather only to gain some knowledge of secular studies (to use for the dissemenation of Torah later no doubt)

I also find it interesting that write would quote that about RSF, that he maintained a connection to Chabad. Why mention it at all?

Chaim G. said...

One of the early frum influences in Rav Shlomo z”ls life was Rav (Nissen?)Telushkin, author of a choshuva sefer on Mikvaos and, if I’m not mistaken, a talmid of the Rebbe RaShab ZY”A. Can’t really vouch for the historicity of his later openness but if it was there this early formative influence may have been part of the reason. BTW, bpunbound, any kenner in Pachad Yitzchok knows that there was a lot more noshing from Poilisha Chasidus, especially the Koihain and Bais Izhbitz, than from Chabad.

RYH didn't go University in order to obtain a degree, chas vesholom, but rather only to gain some knowledge of secular studies

And why pray tell did the Nosee (ZY’A or Shlit”a?) attend the Sorbonne? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim G

Rav Telushkin was a Lubavitcher Chossid. I'm not sure if he ever learned in Lubavitch under the Rashab. He was a Chossid of the 7th Rebbe just as much, so let's not try to make him into some distant Chabad Chossid from 100 years ago.

I think what BP Unbound is trying to say is that Rav H's style in Hanhogoh was very much modeled after Lubavitch, not so much his Derech in Pachad Yitzchok etc.

as far as university goes: Lubavitch never hid the fact that the Rebbe attended, but it seems to me that CB'ers are working hard to eradicate that part of his history, just like the Haskomoh from Rav Kook on the Toras HaNozir disappeared from the second edition. Saying that he went "not to get a degree" is the first step in eradicating it completely. Soon they'll deny it completely and Fruchthandler will pay off the archivist in France and have the records removed.

Anonymous said...

did anyone of u read the mishpacha piece on freifeld´- it was exceptional...so unlike ur typical gedolim bio.- so very refreshing...waht do u think-

Chaim G. said...

Hirshel

When did Rav Telushkin pass and when did the 7th Rebbe ascend to the Nesius?

Do you know (I mean have reliable data on)where he stood in the power struggle between the brothers-in-law?

Would you call a 92 year old who had been in Pshischa and Kotzk but lived to see the first two years of the S'fas Emes a chosid of the S'fas Emes, the Rim or the Kotzker?

Incidentally how DO they interpret the 7th Rebbe's higher secular education in Mainstream Lubavitch? Was he a RYBS-like proponent of TuM? It certainly doesn't seem to be something that most of his Chasidim are trying to emulate.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim G

I know what you mean, but Rav Telushkin was a Chossid of the Rebbe too, he didn't just live into his Nesius.

Originally though he was a Talmid of Reb Shmaryohu Noach of Bobruisk, an Einikel of the Tzemach Tzedek.

He was alive in 5727, 17 years into the Rebbe's Nesius and attended the Lag BaOmer parade that year. Those pics and others from RNT at Farbrengens can be viewed HERE

the Rebbe forbade university education almost all of the time, so much so that the main Yeshivah in Crown Heights has no secular studies at all! and I mean from the 1st grade on, there's no English nor Math taught there.

TuM was not the Rebbe's ideal, no.

Hirshel Tzig said...

He was nifter on 20 Adar 5730.

Hirshel Tzig said...

A short Biography can be seen here

Hirshel Tzig said...

He also never learned by the Rashab.

bpunbound said...

Actually, I was refering to the seismic shift that occured from the pre-post war period when he could best be described as a shtarker talmid of der alter with a mystic-poetic bent and Zionistic attitude bordering on Kook-ism, reflected in his outward appearence-personal conduct (we won't delve into the university period), to the Moetzes period and certainly the final Tekufa when he was transformed into an almost cultish figure that some perceived to be almost akin to that of a Rebbe.

I don't know if this was concious and we're talking about a mature man in his 40-50's but I would say some outer influences caused a major reasssement.

If you would have asked him in 1947 if the key to the Amerikana boychik was to put on a spodik and prava a tisch and zug iber teefa haskala, I don't think you would have gotten a positive response.

Now, in fact, shtamt shtamt er fun chassidim (not well publicized), but there is certainly no hint of this, and perhaps even repudiation of this lifestyle and mindset, until the latter period in Amercia.

If you ask me, I believe the time he spent learning chassidus and being in the deled amos of the Rebbe hat kevirkt oif eim, eventually.

Anonymous said...

I think that hutner was tzimusht, and every decade he changed his skin according to the zeitgeist
1) first rav kook I heard that he was approached by reb Shloma Zalmen
howcome he deleted rav kooks haskome.

2) then chabad,look at his letters in the 1st Heichal Habesht volumes,he is asking question like a talmid from a rav, I heard that reb shmuel levitin asked the lubavitcher rebbe not to answer him since he is a cheap oppurtunist, but the reebe said if a yid wants to learn chasidus I have to answer him

reader said...

"shtamt shtamt er fun chassidim (not well publicized)"

He shtammed from Litvaks on his father's side.

His mother was from a Gerrer mishpocho I think.

In a marriage between two shvotim, the son is registered to the father's sheivet.

Hirshel Tzig said...

reader

that was discussed HERE, his uncle was Dayan in Aishishok. The Spodik, כנראה, he took from the mother's side.

Kopust said...

Hirshel
Why do you have this obsession with fighting some kind of holy war?You have a non stop battle with perceived enemies.Listen, ess past nisht far dir, a)as a relative newcomer to Lubavitch, is is poshut unbecoming for a newcomer to do 'battle' like an old time general.It also makes it seem strange that Lubavitch, with many chasidim and around for over two hundred years needs new guys to do battle, when the oldtimers have decided to seek a peacefire.

Why do we need to go over and over these issues all the time.Let it reast.Please

Hirshel Tzig said...

Kopust

you're right that RYH and YRCB should never have been discussed, and that was NOT the point of this thread, but that's how blogs work, they sometimes go off on tangents.

Chaim G. said...

If you'll indulge me in another tangent; IMO th eLitvishe parallel to the Rebbe and Chabad is not RYH or MRCB at all but Rav Henoch Liebowitz Shlit"a and RSA AKA Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim G

Chofetz Chaim, I think, only took the outreach idea, no? is Rav Henoch the equivalent of a Rebbe who has a Hashkofoh and torah that he teaches?

Chaim G. said...

And how. Just substitute the word "Mussar" for "Chabad D"AKH" and it's almost identical albeit on a smaller (in quantity of adherents) scale.

I am not a RSA talmid but I have attended one of their conventions and several of their functions. The aimas HaKovod and deep love that they have for their Roshashiva is unparalleled anywhere in the contemporary Yeshivasha Velt and I suspect has no historical precedent in the Yeshivasha Velt.

Chaim G. said...

Check out the readily web-available video footage of his recent zivug sheni wedding and you'll get a picture of what I'm talking about.

Another striking parallel: Both men were childless.

It is remarkable that so many of the Gedolim who were responsible for the post-war resurrection of Torah and Chasidus had few or no children. Some never had any and some lost families in the war. A short list is: Chazon Ish 0, Lubavitcher Rebbe 0, Gerrer Rebbe (Bais Yisroel) 0, Satmar Rebbe 0, RYBS 2, Rav Ruderman 1, Rav Hutner 1, Rav Henoch Liebowitz 0, Rav Ahron Kotler 2, Rav Moshe Feinstein 4 (Rav Y. Kaminetsky, The Brisker Rov and the Klausenberger Rebbe??? are notable exceptions)

I have this odd theory: Its almost as if the Aibershter were saying to them “My kinderlach are now all tsibrochiner Yesomim. Go out and be their Tattes” and that raising large families of their own, with all its attendant tirdos and tzar gidul bonim, might somehow distract them and impinge on their avodah for the K’lal.

Current RSA legend goes as follows: The reason the Roshashiva had so public a wedding is that his fiancée/second Rebitizin asked him before the chasuna if it would be all right for her children to attend the e Chuppah. To which he responded “Sure. As long as mine can attend as well” and so talmidim from his 50+ years at the helm got on planes and came to celebrate in the Yeshivas spacious new plaza in Kew Gardens Hills.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Interesting stuff Chaim G.

I would venture to say that the reason that they have respect for Reb Henoch is the their Temimus, and I mean that as a good thing. They're אמעריקאנער בויס who have come to respect a scion of the previous generation. The children of European Yeshivaleit wouldn't be that excited.

Chaim G. said...

Hey... I thought it was Chabad that gave the world a network of TomcheiTemimim

Chaim G. said...

In truth, I am not that excited myself. But then I'm getting old and jaded.

Anonymous said...

This, that klal yisroel manhigim are childless I heard by tzelemer rov's levaya in the name of the Yismach Moshe. If someone can find it in his sefer I would appreciate.

on Tzig's constant rehashing these discussions, when you come from a different background you are constantly barraged with arguments by your old friends and family on your affiliation switch,vs. a person like a Chakin or a Raskin that for genaration had nothing in common with a non chabadnik.

Chaim G. said...

Well, boruch shekeevantee. Does the YM draw the same conclusions that I did? I honestly arrived at this observation independantly. I am new to this blog so i have no clue what the Chakin or a Raskin refernces mean. As should be obvious from my comments I am not a Chabadnik.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I too heard the vort B'shem the Yismach Moshe as a child in Cheder. Then they used it to refer to leaders like the Chazon Ish.

Zish said...

Chaim G.
Raskin and Chaikin are Lubavitcher families.The comment was meant in reference to Hirshels constant rehashing past history involving fights between Lubavitch and others.You are new to the blog, but a big percentage of Hirshels blog is attacks on what he calls 'haters' (haters basically anybody disagreeing with Chabad even in light of the last post Rebbe period when many Lubavitchers unfortunately have taken a very scary and sad path)

Hirshel Tzig said...

Thank you Zish for clarifying my position here.

I just wish you'd be a little less simplistic and a lot more truthful.

yoshe kalb said...

chaim g.,just for the sake of accuracy: the Beis Yisruel zya had one daughter,but she was a bit problematic...Satmar ruv also had daughters, but they passedaway during his life time(as a result of the Minchas Eluser's curse?).His son in law was the Sassover rebbe.

Chaim G. said...

"the Beis Yisruel zya had one daughter,but she was a bit problematic"

I didn't realize? Were the nature of her problems physical, emotional or psychological? Did she ever marry? What became of her husband? Did she have any kids?

Anonymous said...

the bais yisroel's daughter didnt survive the war.

I think the curse in munkatch was in a turf (call it Gelilos)war between the Darkie Teshuva and the Kedushas YomTov about the future parnoso of their kids.

Hirshel Tzig said...

so who cursed whom?