Wednesday, October 4, 2006

שששאא! ר' מענדל שלאפט



Reb Mendel Futerfas resting his weary head after a night of Farbrengen in 770 during Chodesh Tishrei. Soon he'd wake and begin another day.

Even the most rabid Lubavitch bashers had respect for Reb Mendel, - which is somewhat perplexing being that he was such a staunch דור השביעי חסיד. Was it all the white beard and Kasket? - The same goes for Reb Yoel Kahan. What I find so perplexing is that some of Reb Yoel's biggest "Talmidim" would never step into 770, even to get a dollar from the Rebbe.

How does one separate the two? How can you sit and listen to Shiurim by an individual who's Rebbe you consider unworthy?

23 comments:

chabakuk elisha said...

People respect the genuine article when they see it.

I remember hearing R' Yisroel Friedman tell a story:
In the DP camps there were some more modern yidden that had made a "Yiddish Theatre." Chassidim opposed this, and so they destroyed it during the night. The next day, the authorities went straight to the Chabad minyan looking for the frumak who had perpetrated this crime, but they didn’t know who they were looking for. At the time, R’ Yisorel was there, as were three men standing and davening. The authoritie approached the first (R’ Nissen Neminov), and pulled back his talis, but seeing his face while he davened they replaced his talis and backed away. Then they went to the next chossid and checked under his talis, and immediately took him a away for questioning.

So, R’ Yisroel says, even the goy can recognize a real davening…

If we were all like R’ Mendel, R’ Yoel or R’ Nissen there would be no hisnagdus left…

zezmir said...

Hirshel, the non-religious get all up in arms if a religious guy doesn’t act impeccably.
A leftist gets all agitated when a right winger messes up (been following the news this week?).

Indeed they subconsciously place that individual on a pedestal – even though they may theoretically oppose that point of view – and they hold that person to a higher standard than they would hold themselves. So, as President Reagan would say… here we go again: Chabad Chassidim have a moral obligation to fulfill the expectation of the Rabbeim (and their opponents).

Hirshel Tzig said...

Nonsense, Zezmir

People find fault with opinions they do not like, it's just that sometimes they have a harder time explaining their dislikes, since they have no basis for it. In the case of today's Chabad; Lubavitch has made it easier for the haters, yes, but the hate would still be there.

zezmir said...

I disagree.
If something is real, the opposition will be short lived. I say that we create our own opposition...

priceline said...

I love how the Lubab discuss what the 'menagdim' think.
Can I speak for myself,thank you?
I actually view both the individuals you mentioned, R'Yail and R'Mendel as the reasons for the 'yellow plague' aka as Moshichisten.Unlike Lubab I try not to bash individuals just because they are 'snags or in this case Lubab, so allow me to explain.
Firstly R'Mendel:Obviously how can one not respect a Jew who sat in Siberia for may years and came out just like he went in!Besides that, he took a big part in the escape from Russia of thousands of yidden after the war, so he has many 'zechusen'
HOWEVER:Tayereh yid that he may have been, he was no Rov, not a posek.Not one who should be teaching young impressionable kids about 'hiskashrus'
Let me use an example that used to seem like a nice 'mayseh' than upon maturing turned into idiotic.R'Mendels 'sending' of a pidyon nefesh from the labour camp in Siberia to the Rebbe and the 'miraculous' answer:You see all this 'hiskashrus' is hogwash, BECAUSE R'MENDEL DID NOT EVEN KNOW THE REBBE!!!
It's one thing if he had known the Rebbe and than bemesirras nefesh he is 'miskasher' to him, but since R'Mendel had been stuck in Russia he did not know the man at all! So basically the story boils down to some 'narishe' naivite.Lubavitch inc. saw the ammount of positive p.r and ability to promote this made up lubab term of 'hiskashrus' using R'Mendel to travel and pronmote.THOSE WERE THE FIRST SIGNS that Chabad who had always mocked 'chagas' chassidim and had made a persons own 'avoido' the focal point would ultimately turn into a souped up 'chagas' to the 'nth degree.Nothing has any importance besides 'hishkashrus' to the Nosi Hador! (even when the Nosi Hador dies, he is still 'acknowledged' as Nosi Hador by ALL Lubavitcher)Maybe it's unfair to judge R'Mendel by his last years when he too was reportedly a Meshichist.
R'Yoel:
We all know that he was the main promoter of the Rebbe as Moshiach, in fact in an example of how 'smart' he was he answered an Israeli journalist who asked what would happen if the Rebbe was to die, his smart answer was:What will happen if the sun won't rise tomorrow! Making a corelation between the 'certainty' that the Rebbe is Moshiach and the sun rising the next morning.After the Rebbe dies he goes on to 'admit' to making a mistake BUT goes on to right a dumb article in Kfar Chabad that 'we' as chassidim still believe the Rebbe is moshiach!
Obviously R'Yoel is a yada'an in Chabadsker chassidus, he is famous for this knowledge, but IS also to blame for this breakdown of sanity in Lubab.
I firmly believe that since the passing of R'Zalman Shimon Dvorkin an oldworld Lubavitcher rabbi, who put what Hashem wants from us before phony, mumbo jumbo 'hiskashrus' and was widely respected by all Lubavitchs craziness got totally out of hand.That is when the R'Mendels and R'Yoels and their idiotic talmidim started to plunge Lubavitch in an abyss.

the chances of this being posted are about nil.
Btw,if posted welcome back to Chabakuk Elisha, a Chabsker who still tries to think on his own

Hirshel Tzig said...

Priceline

You make dislking Snags so easy for us, too easy really.

Did you read the question I posed, properly?

I'm speaking of people who have respect for RYK and RMF now, for who they are. You obviously have other ideas.

priceline said...

And you Hershel do not realize that I answered you.
People respected R'Mendel as a yid ba'al mesirrus nefesh.That's it.
R'Yael vayl ehr kehn chabadsker chassides.Thats it.
It means that despite most people, the ones who you call 'olomishe' and 'chagasnikehs' viewing Lubavitch as 'moddeneh' at best and much worse if they have a closer view, PEOPLE STILL RESPECT THESE TWO,they have no interest in the broader picture of Lubavitch because it's crazy.
You yourself proved it with your post,despite knowing R'Yoel well and hearing his shiurim they don't want any shAychus with Lubavitch!!
It's the Chabad chassidus from the Alter Rebbe, Tzemach Tzedek that they want to learn, not the modern day 'hiskashrus'

Hirshel Tzig said...

Priceline

Let those people speak for themselves, OK?

So what you're saying is that people are leeches, bloodsuckers who get every ounce of blood out these people for their own good? Just because they want to learn "Chabadsker" Chassidus?

Mottel said...

"You see all this 'hiskashrus' is hogwash, BECAUSE R'MENDEL DID NOT EVEN KNOW THE REBBE!!!"
From your words we can see that you have:
1. No Hasagah what a Rebbe is.
2. No hasagah what a Chossid is.
3. No hasagah what Hiskashrus is.

berl, crown heights said...

"You see all this 'hiskashrus' is hogwash, BECAUSE R'MENDEL DID NOT EVEN KNOW THE REBBE!!!"

Priceline, I heard this particular story with all its details from Reb Mendel himself.

1. The story happened with the Previous Rebbe, whom Reb Mendel met well before 1927 (when the Rebbe left Russia) and who's chossid he was at the time of this story (late ‘40s). When in 1963(4?) Reb Mendel was finally allowed to leave Russia and join his wife and children in England, his wife produced the now famous letter. The letter form the Previous Rebbe was dated the same date Reb Mendel was "thinking" his 'letter' in the labor camp. The letter from was addressed to Reb Mendel (not to his wife as usual) and started with the following words: "You telegram has reached me..."

2. After the histalkus of the Previous Rebbe, Reb Mendel forged a very strongkesher with The Rebbe (yes, before he had a chance to see The Rebbe). Reb Mendel, being one of the einei hoedo was getting smuggled letters and instructions from The Rebbe. So while the story in actuality happened with the Previous Rebbe, it could have just as legitimately happen with The Rebbe.

The point? You are a liar and a clueless idiot all at the same time. How do you manage that?

yetz farsteit ir ale farvos ich hob faint a misnageid ad miztui hanefesh?

Anonymous said...

פון וואנעט זאל דער אומשולדיגע קעלבל וויסען

He thinks that watching Rav Elyashiv light Chanukah Licht is Hiskashrus........

priceline said...

I will admit to having made a mistake about the story with R'Mendel and the P'AN.Nontheless the premise that R'Mendel knew the Rebbe is false.He did not know the Rebbe from Adam, was probably in prison when the Rebbe took over and even if not had no way of knowing the Rebbe to be 'miskasher' to him.
A small note :'yetz farsteit ir ale farvos ich hob faint a misnageid ad miztui hanefesh? 'These words are from one of the Lubavitch 'defenders'
I have been around quite a bit and seen many kreizen,I have never before heard such a deep hatred for another Jew.The only thing that it reminds me of is what R'Akiva said while an am ho'oretz 'Mi yitein lee talmid chochom va'anaschenu kachamor' The reason R'A kiva had such hate towards a talmid chochom was that he knew they had the truth.I'm complimented to be the subject of Berls wrath and vile hate a true sign that subconciously he 'knows' the truth,a real sign of the self loathing projected on to yours truly

Ma'aravah said...

Priceline-

I am not a big fan of the dissing, but at least admit that you entered the conversation with a bit of an axe to grind-- so you lifnei ever'ed the response.

The question was much more interesting than the dialogue which ensued-- and I think the discussion should start anew.

Maybe people don't realize that RMF and hibadel l'chaim RYK are kol kulum preoccupied with the Rebbe. You can't respect RYK b/c he knows chabadsker chassidus and distinguish that from his connection to Rebbe. His own knowledge of chassidus has lead him to the conclusion that Rebbe is the pinnacle of chassidus, both intellectually, the Rebbe's chassidus, and emotionally. Its hard to explain to an outsider- maybe its like saying I have the utmost respect for R' Chaim Brisker, but only because he learned b'hasmadah, not because of his analysis of the Gemorah- its simply a wierd and seemingly uninformed position to take.

The same with R' Mendel- his mesirus nefesh was fueled by his love for chassidus and the Rebbe.

What you are attempting to do is justify the fact that you are opposed to Chabad philosophy despite the fact that it has produced some results which you agree are amazing. (I understand that your dislikes of Chabad may come from the big picture, and that is ot present discussion, but you cannot deny that the good things identified in RYK and RMF are inextricably intertwined with Chabad philosophy.)

Sorry for the lengthiness of my post!

Mottel said...

Priceline, "K'mayim ha'panim l'panim, kein leiv ha'adam l'adam".
You only bring out from us what you are yourself.

EARLY BIRD said...

Any "names" who are RYK and RMF "fans" - but anti-L?

bigs said...

I want to take a crack at this ''How does one separate the two? How can you sit and listen to Shiurim by an individual who's Rebbe you consider unworthy?''

Well, who was the Tanna Rebbi Meirs' rebbe??

Hirshel Tzig said...

Early Bird

why the need for names? Blogs are supposed to be anonymous, right?

Bigs

silly analogy.

bigs said...

Why silly analogy,Hirshel?

Anonymous said...

I heard the following story from Rabbi Shmuel Lew of London, England:

Once, R'Nissan Nemenov, a"h, was farbrenging in the house of R' Avrohom Glick (who lived in the heart of the Satmar section of Stamford Hill, London). As whenever he farbrenged there, there were dozens of Satmarer Chasidim present.

One of the Satmarer turns to Rabbi Lew and says about R' Nissen, "Ahhh!!!! Der Yid is a 'chad b'doroh'!!!"

Rabbi Lew tells him, "Yeah, but there is one personn in this room is much smarter then him."

The Satmarer says, "Who is that?"

Rabbi Lew answers, "You! Because that 'chad b'doroh' thinks the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a tzadik, and you know that he is not."

Hirshel Tzig said...

Bigs

did Reb Meir continuously quote his Rebbe? Did he remain a Talmid even after he was נתחמץ?

bigs said...

Hirshel
The answer is R'Meir remained a talmid but discarded the bad and took the good
Elisha ben Avuyah is even quoted in moed koton daf chof nogea a shmua rechiko by avelus

Ma'aravah said...

Bigs-

R' Yoel's Torah teachings are to be mekushar. His connection to Rebbe permeates his teachings and is the focus of them. By not accepting R' Yoel's views on the Rebbe, you are not taking the pomegranate fruit and throwing away the shell, as R' Meir did with acher, (chagigah 15b) rather you are throwing away the fruit.

Anonymous said...

Priceline, You wrote:
You see all this 'hiskashrus' is hogwash, BECAUSE R'MENDEL DID NOT EVEN KNOW THE REBBE!!!
For your information RM is my grandfather, and i would like to inform you that RM acctualy did Know the Rebbe and new, who he was, and to a chabad chssid even not knowing, but the fact that the Previous Rebbe Took Him as a son in law is enought, and that is what he will build his hishkashrus on, but it seems that you dont even have an inkiling what a chossid rebbe connection is and how a chossid relates to the rebbe therefore you just draw conclusions, that anounce to the world your ignorance, mabey you will check your facts next time you publish