Photo via Yarzheit.com)
Yitz of Heical HaNeginah observes the Yohrtzeit of R"R Elimelech Of Lizhensk
I remember as a Bochur of some 17-18 years old, I would daven at a Boro Park Minyan every morning before Yeshivah, and would very often be the Chazzan, for lack of another. On one 21 Adar I approached the Amud and davened. The tray of candles that are lit for Yohrtzeits was especially packed that day, and the melting wax would've made for a great picture, had somebody brought a camera. When I finished Chazoras HaShat"z I started Elokeinu Veilokei Avoiseinu, just like any other day. There were some shouts of "Yisgadal!" and "Rebbe Reb Meilech's Yoortzat!," but I continued, and ignored the pleas of those wishing to cut davening a bit short that day. I guess I always have a ruthless, mean streak to me.
After Davenen was over, and I was putting my Tefillin away, I was approached by a Chassidic Young man, who knew my connection to Lubavitch and did not like it one bit, who asked me "Hayetoochen hust gezoogt Tachnin oyf di Rebbe Reb Mylich's Yoortzat?" My response was that in Chabad zoogt men Tachnin afille ba di eigene Rebbes, MiKol SheKein ba di Rebbe Reb Mylich. The man flew into a rage, demanding an apology from me for the "disrespect" I showed to the RRM by saying that he was not from the Eygene Rebbes. "He's the Rebbe of all of Klal Yisroel," was his cry, and that includes you! I ignored his further questions, and left the shul, already late for Yeshivah.
Now, Imagine if I would demand that on 24 Teves that all shuls in Boro Park and Williamsburg refrain from saying Tachnun, would this Yid agree with my demand? This was not a Lizhensker shul, and as such should not have been conducting itself according to Lizhensker customs, so why was I supposed to not say Tachnun that day? Where would this end anyway? Would the Satmarer Chossid, and there are many in that shul, be allowed to rip Tachnun out of the 26 Av (Reb Yoel's Yohrtzeit) davenen just because he wants to? Am I to be reprimanded in public for sticking with the Shulchan Aruch and asking Hashem for forgiveness for my sins on this auspicious day?
68 comments:
As usual the Tzig makes no sense:If this shuls minhag was not to say tachanun on the Rebbe R'Mylechs yohrtzet, what difference does it make vous mehn teet in Lubab?
Actually when you mention trying to force your minhag on others:You have tried forcing your Rebbe as 'our' Nossi Hadeyr(sic)this was a joke while he lived by after his petira, you are still forcing us to accept him as Nosi and moshiach (and bashefer too.....)
ay tzigaleh! tzigaleh! dee kliener nit picker!
I see how the jealousy eats at you.I feel for you.Really.
We have here a Rebbe who has no real dynasty left, no 'lobbyists' like the Lubab and still thousands of people spend lots of money to travel to his tsiyun.Why?:Because most chassidim see him as the REAL mamshich of the Maggid, because everyone has been touched by his REAL love for every Jew and REAL humility.
Lubab, eat your heart out.You have tried for at least two generation to buy, cajole, brainwash other frum people to join your ranks.You have employed the best lobbyists to push your Rebbes, customs ,meshigassen down our throats, EEN ESS GAYT ENK NISHT!!
(Who can believe that Lubavitch now employ a full time brainwasher in Boro Park to poison kids minds using any tools they can, including phony lag baoimer parades)
"He's the Rebbe of all of Klal Yisroel,"
Not mine.
Oy Hirshel, you have a shtickel snag in you. ;-)
According to all estimates there 1500 people there for Shabbos. That's after the travel agents "pumped" the Lizhensk route for weeks, giving it away. Is that so great?
'All estimates'
Source?
(dayn bauych?)
not mein bauych, your toches.
nisht kan trop seichel:
This was not a Lizhensker shul, it was some restless guy that wanted to cut davenen short by 3 minutes who pinned it on the RR Meilech, get it?
השבת הייתה מרוממת מאד
כ1500 איש שהו שם בשבת
כאיש אחד בלב אחד
מורינו הגה"צ אב"ד ויזניץ רומם את הקהל
כאשר מאות הסתופפו בתפילות החמות, בבאטע וש"ס.
מרומם אף יותר מעמד התפילה על יד הציון כאשר בבכיות נוראיות קרא את ספר רביעי וסדר סליחות.
לאחר מכן נשא הרב שיחת התעוררות בה התחנן לפני רבש"ע בבכיות ובדמעות לרפואת אביו כ"ק מרן אדמו"ר שליט"א ולישעות כל כלל ישראל.
מיר און אלע זאלן האבן גע'פועל'ט אלעס גוט'ס
From BeChadrei Charedim
It's amazing how we are copied in everything - literally everything. Tzig, the snags you've gathered by now are hilarious. Keep it up.
Another report here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070310/lf_afp/afplifestylepolandjewsculturehasidism
SINCE THE LUB REBBES DONT DIE AND ARE ALIVE לעולם .....
THEREFORE THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO SINE ALL LUBV REBBES ARE STIIL ALIVE לעולם ועד THEREFORE תחנון IS NOT SAID ON 24 TEVES
YES! I REMEMBER RAV FRIEND FROM WILLI WHO GAVE A צוואה FOR SOME OF HIS CHILDREN THAT WERE BAPTESIEZED BY LUBB THAT UNTIL THEY ARE LUB THEY SHALL NOT SIT שבעה WHEN HE IS נפטר
ALSO ASK THE SHOPRONER RAV WHOS HAIR GOT ALL WHIT FROM צער WHOS SON WAS FORCFULLY CONVERTED TO LUBB AT 13 BY THE MASTER KIDNAPER AND BRAINWASHER WHECTER WITH OUT PERMISION FROM THE SHOPRONER RAV
MR. ANONYMOUS MORON WITH THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON STUCK IS BACK!
YIPEE!!!
I HOPE THOSE SILLY HUNGARIANS YOU MENTIONED HERE WERE SMART ENOUGH TO REALIZE HOW STUPID THEY WERE TO SAY THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT I WON'T HOLD MY BREATH ON THAT. UNGARISCHE NA'AR IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CONCERNS A NAARISHE FREUND AND A COLLEGE STUDENT LIKE THE SHOPRONER.
The funny moron is back! Lovely!
Does "Wecter" "sine" his name "Shoproner"?
T JJ
IF YOU ARE IGNORENT AND DON"T KNOW
מאך בעסער א שוויג.......
THE SHOPRONER REBBE RAV MEISELS WERE דורות OF רבנים AND הייליגע צדיקים FROM THE OLD CUT
AND NEVER TUCHED THE KNOB OF A TRIEF COLLEDGE DOOR
NOW TO WHECTERS KIDNAPING AND BRAIN WHASING YOUNG INOCENT SOULS AGAINST THERE FATHERS WILL AND THIERE KNOWLEDGE!!!
IF A בחור DECIDES TO BE A LUBAV THAT"S HIS BUSS
HOWEVER WHEN A FATHER AND CHUSIVER RAV LIKE THE SHOPRONER RAV ENTRUSTED WHECTER WITH HIS TREASURE
HIS DEAR KID, AND FOR WHECTER TO TEACH THIS POOR KID TO MAKE חוזק FROM THE צדיקים THAT WERE THE REBBES FROM HIS FATHER AND זיידעס AND FROM THE דרך החסידות HIS זיידעס WERE BROUGHT UP FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS , AND TAKING
ADVANTAGE OF THE YOUNG AGE OF PRECIOUS SOULS AND KIDNAPED THEM
AND TEACING THEM, THAT THIERE FATHERS WAYS WERE OLD FASION AND הצדיק רבי אלימלך זי"ע IS OUT OF STYLE THESE DAY,A WHECTER LIKE THIS IS A HEARTHLESS AND VISIOUS PERSON AND DESERVES NOTHING LESS THEM PRISON FOR LIFE!!!!
WHECTER DID THIS IN HIDING FROM HIS FATHER THAT HE IS KIDNAPING THE SOUL OF HIS PRESIOUS CHILD, THIS CAN BE FOUND ONLY BY THE CATHOLIC MISSONARIES
THEREFORE WHECTER WILL BE לחרפה לדראון עולם
WHIL YOU ARE TALKING FROM נערנים
I FIGURED THRE CANT BE A BIGGER נער THEN A PERSON WHO WAS AT THE קבורה FROM THE REBBE IN THE QUEENS CEMERARY AND SCREAMING WITH YR STUPID FLAG THAT THE REBBE IS ALIVE OR THAT THE REBBE IS אליקית ר"ל
I SUGEST YOU SHALL GO TO A GOOD PSYCHIATRIST AND YOU WILL BE SCARED OF THE EVALUATION HE WILL GIVE YOU
BASED ON YR CRAZY MOSIACH AND ELOKIM BELIEVES
'College student like the Shoproner'
Lubab: Another case of the pot calling the kettle black??
Lubab, you crack me up!
CAPS LOCK
I was talking about the Shoproner Rov Posen, not Meisels. He was a college student who they conveniently erase that part from his life's story. The Meisels were feine Yidden, but let's not get all sick and cry over Reb Hershel Meisels here. His son the Lubavitcher, the one you call brainwashed, is the best of all his children, and we can thank Lubavitch for that, because all it did was add a whole dimension to his knowledge of Torah. You don't know him and all you have is the hate you inherited from such Meturofim as Menashe Fulop and the other morons in Williamsburg.
now go crawl back into your hole.
Tzig
Just because Meisels is your rabbi on 16 th ave makes him 'the best of all his children'?Thanks for that very 'unbiased' view! (and I'm sure you think you are being 'objective')
Btw, nobody has whitewashed the Shoproner z'ls college.For a German Jew especially a rabbinical family it was expected.Don't even think of comparing this to Eastern European chassidim.
I SUGGEST TO CHECK THE HISTORY ON RABBI POSEN
HE WAS AT THE AGE OF APPROX 21 WHEN HE ARRIVED TO אוהעל AND HE LEARNED IN אוהעל קלויז יומם ולילה
LUMUDIE KODESH AND MARRIED WHEN HE WAS 21-22 YEAR OLD
THE LUBAV REBBE GOT MARIED LATE AND WAS IN COLLEGE A TOTAL OF 6-7 YEARS
AND LIVED IN PARIS IN A AREA FAR OUT OF THE BOUNDERIS OF CHARIEDY YIDDEN
I AM STILL BAFFELED WHAT THE REBBE HAS DONE IN THOSE COLLEGES FOR 6-7 LONG YEARS AND WHAY DID A RBBISH
EINICALE HAVE TO STAY SO LONG IN THE TREIFENE COLLEGE?
WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE?
DID THE REBBE מהרייץ LIKE WHAT HE WAS DOING SO LONG IN THESE COLLOGES?
DID THE REBBES PARRENTS APPROVE THEIR SON GOING TO COLEGE FOR 6-7 LONG YEARS.
RE THE SHAPRONER RAV SON
I WAS DAVENING MANY TIME WITH HIM
HE WAS שופך דם FOR HIS FATHER ON EVERY OPERTUNITY ל"ע
RE HIS לומדות:
IF HE BELIVES IN THE דיעות כופרות
ABOUT MUSIACH נוסח שבתי צבי OR חוח
HE BELIVES THE REBBE IS אלוקית ר"ל THEN HE IS אבד חלקו באלוקי ישראל AND HIS LEARNING HAS "000" VALUE
Reb Gedalya Kenig once said, to a certain Galitzianer chosid, who became a Breslover, that saying tachanun on Rebe Reb Elimelech's yortzayt in shul wher it isn't said is in no way a disrespect to him, and it should be done, for one who says it on such occasions. (Brelov does, Lubavitch and Munkatch as well).
To the Willi Shmuck,
In Satmar there is a story that Rav Posen went with Rav Lichtenstien(krasna) to gedolim to invite them to participate in a satmar so called protest (satmar propaganda rally as it was realy intended)they arrived to 770 and the rebbe explained them, his view of approaching the zionist /secular world, when the 2 rabonim were on their way home, Rav Posen started with a tirade on Chabad, from there they went to the old Skwerer RY"Y, and he also disapointed them but Rav Posen was quiet, so Rav Lichtenstien asked him for an explanation, his response was that on a rebbe he doesn"t ask questions, and Rav Lictenstien asked him if a rebbe then both are rebbes.
To Anon
What did the other Miesels boys do for humanity in the last 3 decades beside their vicious anti Erev campaign. With their bare hands tearing the erev strings 2 minutes before the Zeman Shabbos with the yellow satmar bus.I think that in the Toras Alef there is many letters that are pro erev. Had their father the big illu printed it today he would definitly censor it as he censored many pro Skwere Rebbes letters. He his embarrased that his father inlaw hold the RY"Y for the Tzadik Hador. He used satmar as a base for his kanois that he learned in Munkatch.
Mi Keamcho
Why is the guy in boropark called a lobbiyist and Reb Yankele from Pshevorsk simple sipurie tzadikim, Listen to his 3 cassattes on Lisensk.
I HEARED WITH MY EARS FROM THE OLD SHOPRONER REBBE ON ABOUT ABT שנת תשכז IT WAS שמחת תורה AND THE LUBAV CAME INTם HIS SHULL IN WILLI TO TEACH THIER REBBES AMERICANIZED CHASIDOS (THAT ENDED WITH THE REBBE CROWNING HIMSELF MOSIACH AND עצמות-GOD ר"ל )
THE SHOPRONER REBBE זי"ע SAID THE FOLLOWING
אל תיראנו שאני שחרחורת שזפתנו השמש:
THE SHOPRONER REBBE SAID השמש
בגימ' מנחם מענדל שנאורסאן
!!!!!!!!
I HEARD THIS FROM SHOPRONER REBBES MOUTH זי"ע
The CAPS LOCK dictionary continues:
A Shvig: A father in law who acts like a shviger.
Old Cut: A loshon sagi nohor for a cut from a treif tuched (or tuches).
Whasing: Heimishe sci-fi for "phasing".
A visious person: As opposed to viscous; when your blood does not flow with hate.
Eliokis: The female form of Eliokim.
Chariedy: a religious form of charades and chicanery.
Colloges: An injection similar to collogen, where mush is inserted in the brain.
Einicale Baffeled: How Yoshe Kalman refers to the theories of Pasternale in the Mikveh.
Hey JJ!!!
Lubabs shouldn't talk about "college Students" when their own Rebbe was (is) one.
anonymous 10:40pm
you just don't get it, do you?
I call him that to shut up those that call the Lubavitcher Rebbe one.
?פארשטייסט
JJ:
Galgal HaChoizer.
Isn't that a Lipa song?
Shoproner
I appreciate your Shoproner devotion and your Hiskashrus to the Toras Aleph, but I have news for you. The man who forbade men from wearing deodorant because of Chukas HaGoy definitely would've done the same regarding the toomene internet.
There's a big world outside of Shopron so stop being so excited about what he did or didn't say. I'm sure he meant well but he definitely suffered from a complex, doing Tshuveh for the first 21 years of his life. He was considered a kitzoni of the first order, even by Williamsburg standards. Now start telling me what a Koodesh VeToher he was, and what a Menuvel I am.
I'm completely lost. But this evening on the subway I overheard one chassidisher yid telling his wife in an overawed voice that "finf in tzvantzig toezend" were at Lizhensk; he was so impressed that he repeated it twice more. I didn't feel chutzpadig enough to interrupt them.
jj, and a good one.
The numbers tzig brought are only for shabbos, erev the yohrtzait.The American planes and Israeli came after shabbos, plus Europeans, so the oilem was quite big
Tzig:The Shoproner was doing 'teshuva' for his first 21 years, so therefore, in your mind his was a kanoi, right?
Is that the reason why you hate all non Lubabs so much, because you are doing teshuva for the x ammount of years, that you were 'not yet' Lubavitch??
Sounds like it to me...
I WISH TO APOLOGIZE,MY ENGLISH IS NOT GOOD AT ALL BCS I CAME TO THE USA AS AN IMMIGRANT HOW EVER I AM SURE MY POINT GETS TRUE,
AND MOSTLY WHAT PAINS ME THAT LUBAV ARE SO DESPERAT FOR ATTENTION AND BUSSY WITH פארכאפען ערליכע נשמות LIKE THE CATHOLIC MISSIONARIES , THAT EVEN IF TERE IS A YID THAT IS GOING בדרך החסידות THEY WILL NOT STOP FROM ANYTHING AND TEAR APART ERLICHE CHASIDISHE FAMILEIS AND KIDNAP THIER YOUNG CHLDREN AGAINST THERE FATHERS WILL סאיז ממש בגדר גונב נפש ומכרו
AND WHAT DID THE KIDNAPED CHILD GET INSTEAD?
THAT HE IS A PROUD MUSCHIST AND BELIVES THE REBBE IS חי וקים לעולם
נוסח שבתי צבי AND THE REBBE SOMEHOW TOOK OVER THE POSISION OF GOD ר'ל
AND HE IS THE OFFICIAL GOD SINCE HE IS DEAD - עבודה זרה ממש R"L
RE THE 'בעל תורת א;
I WANT TO GIVE YOU A HISTORY LESSON
THE SHOPRONER RAV WAS NEVER A בעל תשובה , HE WAS BORN IN GERMANY TO HIS GRAT FATHER ע"ה WHO WAS THE דיין OF THE קהילה IN FRANKFURT
GERMANY HE LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE HIS BROTHER WHO WAS THE דיין קהילה
OF LONDON WHO WAS AN אמתדיקער ערליכער יוד AND HIS NEFUE IS דיין IN RAV BRUYERS WASHINGTON HIGHTS
SHULL
IN SHORT THE SHOPRONER RAV IS FROM A FAMILY OF A LONG CHAIN OF דיינים פוסקים AND גדוליי ישראל ,THE ONLY THINK THAT CHANGED IS THET THE SHOPRONER RAV DECIDED IN HIS 20'S THAT HE WANTS TO BE A CHOSID AND BECAME A MUNKATCHER CHOSID AND WAS RAV IN SHOPRON
P.S.
CHECK THE ספר תיקון עולם
AND YOU WILL SEE A LETTER FROM THE REBBE מהרייץ IN WICH HE STATES HIS OPINION THAT A מדינה BEFORE MOSIACH'S COMING IS AGAINST THE אמונה UNLIKE THE שיטה OF NEW LUBAVS OF TODAY.....
Shoproner
stop with the CAPS (די גרויסע אותיות) or I'll delete your comments, ok?
You bring up totally irelevant points, points that are not נוגע to the whole שמועס here.
נישט דו קענסט די שאפראנער'ס זוהן, און אוודאי נישט פון היינט, ממילא זאלסטו נישט מאכען סטעיטמענטס וועגן אים אין די וועלט אריין
You sound like a child when you make accusations about people you haven't seen or had contact with for 25 years. His son raised, and continues to raise, a family of fine, eidele Talmidei Chachomim. You do not know what their beliefs are, yet you hak a tcheinek about Shabtai Tzvi.
The Shoproner today, with their Mechitzos throughout the bungalow colony, consider such people, the type of people where he came from, to be Modern Orthodox. They definitely didn't wear black socks (the women) and the men their Chassidishe Levush. The women probably didn't cover their hair either. The Shoproner wouldn't trust their Kashrus, and wouldn't consider them very Erlich.
How all this got into a discussion about 21 Adar and the R"R Meylich is beyond me. Are you a Meisels by the way?
נישט דו קענסט די שאפראנער'ס זוהן, און אוודאי נישט פון היינט, ממילא זאלסטו נישט מאכען סטעיטמענטס וועגן
אים אין די וועלט אריין
Despite the above, your 'speciality' is talking out of your mechila about people you don't even know,usually because the weren't 'koreah laba'al'
Think*** before you have taynos on others, the same taynah you have about the the Shoproner becoming a 'chnyok' to redeem his early years, can you have on yourself, trying to redeem yourself for not being born a Lubab.
Oh, btw, you assumptions that the Posens would be considered 'modern orthodox' is plain nonsense.They were very ehrlicheh German Jews, a rabbonisheh family for years.You are mixing up the head covering minhogim, with your own Lubab back yard, vedai lameyvin
To Shoproner anon,
The same right and gene that urged Posen to leave his great ashkenazic rabbinic heritage to become a chosid of the holy Munkatcher, he was one of the biggest munkatcher chasidim, after the war he didn't forgive for belz yet, and was mad at certain families that were visiting the court of the holy Reb Aron of Belz,
that same right and gene worked on his grandson to reliaze the derech emes of the holy rebbe of lubavitch and if his grandfather didnt think so, he made mistakes on belz and klausenberg so he erred 1 more time,
BTW, look in the Sefer Meorai Oir of Chernobil/Square about the g-dliness of tzadikim, no different then chabad views.
Today with 20/20 hindsight we clearly see that the Shoproner got it right.Lubavitch has become (or maybe has been for some time)a cult of ovdei avodo zoro, kipshutoi.
Ay, you''ll tayna 'not everybody is an Elokist or a meshichst/elokist' Der entfer iz poshut:By the 'eygel hazohov' it involved only three thousand people, and those were 'erev rav' (or ba'aley teshiva vand stam meshiguim, in todays parlamce)why are we still punished today for that sin? Because, it showed that if such a think could happen betoch hamachaneh, the rot was deep.Same for 'our' Lubab cult.
Also, do me a favour and keep Skver out of this, ok? You don't know what end you're speaking out of
I think it's just a question of time till there will be an official issur on Chabad shechita and kashrus or being used as eidim.I know of people who''ll no longer use Lubavitcher hashgochos and not as a chumra.Neither will they enter any Lubavitch place of worship
To anon.
As an othodox jew I see the wind blowing a different way. You should have gone to Poland to pray that your wetdreams should get fullfilled atleast in your lifetime, that you grandson should break the news for you in the nursinghome between 1 adult diaper and the next.
Anonymous
what was THAT all about? and to which anonymous are you referring to?
Anonymous
what was THAT all about? and to which anonymous are you referring to?
The Shoproner? I think most of the haters posting here get their deois from the ShopRiter, a guy by the name of Jose Rodriguez who sells cocaine mixed with haimishe brand washing powder out of the back of the Shop Rite on Mc Donald after hours! I actually met the ShopRiter once, and tried to start a Chaptzem, but some of his customers threatened me and I was alone and saddled with heavy bags of groceries, so that was the end of that. I wonder if his competitor the Pathmarker still works out of the Pathmark on New Utrecht - I haven't been there in 15 years.
And as a proud anti-Zionist who has "Hashem Hi Malkynee" on all of his mp3 players and often hums it while fixing things around the house, I've got news for you. The Rebbe ZYA was also opposed to the medina (it was said that he never even used the word medina to refer to it), but unlike the kanoim, he realized it was a fait accompli and that the way to end it was to bring Moshiach through Ahavas Yisroel. And out of Ahavas Yisroel, he cared for the safety of every Jew in EY, even Yossi Sarid, so that his opposition to territorial surrender had ZILCH to do with tziyoinus.
Hirshel
the guy that waiting for chabad to be in CHES
To
Anon. can you please explain why square is different? or you are in a cursing mood?
Anonymous ken mir kishen in TES!
That's Tof, not Tes, you boor.
well, dat is far vus dey call me Der Shygetz!
(Actually, the reference is to a well known anecdote in Chabad lore. Let's see who knows what I am referring to.)
In Shopron they did not want to accept Rav Posen ZT"L as Rav due to his secular education. The reason he was accepted was the fact that the Munkather Rav (Baal Minchos Elozor ZT"L) was lobbying for him.
i suggest you shall take a history course
the oposing side of the shoproner rav were vicious people
they obtained a rifle and shot at the shoproner rav to kill and not be elected as rav!!!
people that behave like goyim and shoot other jews were defenitly not interested if there rav knew secular learnings
i know moshe david meisels,i am very suspisous that he is the provider of this falsh info!!!
I see how you know him, you got his name wrong!
MORON!!!!
bid deal
o.k. his mame is :
דוד משה מייזעלס
this makes my suspision even stronger that he is behind the info
i know his נוסח.....
dear tzig:
i am a very bad typist and my english is also not to good
i tried my best to work with small caps aldo in some places the big caps came back while switching between english and yiddish i will try better next time
i can tell you that i am not a meisels and i have no family relations with the meisels or shopron
however as i person of klallyisroel
that are ערבים זה לזה i am afraid that a big chelek of clall yisroel
is being sliced off of the rest bcs
of of the fact that they were נכשל אין עבודה זרה ממש by changing thier believe from a god that is
חי וקים into believing that the rebbe is theire mosiach-god ר"ל and he is ALIVE FOREVER god like !!!!!
the same already happanned 2000 year ago and we know how it ended with a בשר ודם יוסף בן מרים being declared theire god and later these people were those that killed millions of jews for 2000 years
therefore 770 is a בית עבודה זרה and a jew is not allowed to enter there bcs its a fact that in 770!! there are daily, big groups of believers in the rebbe-men-god
THAT STUDY THEIR NEW RELEGION OF BELIEVING IN THEIR NEW MEN-GOD in the rebbe ר"ל
(regardless of anything THE REBBE was a בשר ודם,and is now dead!)
AND MOST OF THE LUBAVS HAVE CAPS ON THEiRE HEAD STATING THAT THE REBBE IS R"L חי וקים לעולם ועד!!!
and this is a חלק and a big part of the big picture of the עבודה זרה
and i have to say that the rebbe encoreged these believe towords the end of his life ר"ל
TO TZIGELE
RE THE RIGHT OF A PERSON TO CHANGE TO THE RELIGION THAT HE LIKES MOST:
YES EVERY ADULT HAS THIS RIGHT
HOWEVER WHEN PARENTS ENTRUST 13-14 YEAR OLD CHILDREN to whecter to מחנך THEIR CHILDREN IN THE WAY THAT THEY AND THEiR HOLY GRANDFATHERS BELIVED IN A DEVINE GOD AND IN THEIRE REBBE as the שליח to god נוסח צאנץ and the other holy tzadikim
taking advantage of these young children OF 13-14 YEAR old (there were aprox 40-50 cildren his class whecter violated)
and violate the trust of theIR parents behind their fathers back and against the will of the fathers of these young chidren and convert them to a different religion that is nor kosher in their eyes and in the eyes of tousand of other chasidishe yidden
THIS IS OUTRIGHT KIDNAPING
and whecter is IS עתיד ליתן את הדין
וגונב איש ומכרו!!! ......
anonymous caps freak:
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DEAR “CAP YOILI" (AKA "CAP ANON"),
CAN YOU PLEASE SITE מקורות IN הלכה THAT FORBID A MAN PAST בר מצוה TO STUDY במקום שלבו חופץ , DESPITE HIS FATHER'S OPPOSITION?
CAN YOU PLEASE SITE THE SPECIFIC סעיף IN שו"ע THAT RAV VECHTER VIOLATED BY TEACHING HIS TALMIDIM TEXTS THAT HE BELIEVES BRING TO יראת השם AND אהבת השם ?
CAN YOU PLEASE SITE EXAMPLES WHERE RAV VECHTER ENCOURAGED HIS תלמידים TO SWITCH THE מנהגים OF THEIR FATHERS IN לבוש OR TO BECOME LAX IN ANY FAMILY חומרה ?
CAN YOU PLEASE SITE A דין IN שו"ע THAT STATES THAT WHAT RAV VECHTER DID IS בגדר גונב איש ומכרו AND IS THUSLY PUNISHABLE?
CAN YOU PLEASE SITE מקורות IN חז"ל THAT INSIST ON מיתת צדיקים TO BE LIKE THAT OF ANY OTHER PERSON AND INCOURAGE תלמידים TO PRONOUNCE " רבי מת " ?
CAN YOU PLEASE CONCENTRATE ON YOUR FELLOW שטופי זימה IN WILLIAMSBURG (THOSE TO WHOM " קנאים פוגעים בו " ACTUALLY APPLIES)? AND IF, PER CHANCE, YOU ARE ONE OF THE AFOREMENTIONED שטופי זימה - THEN PRETTY PLEASE APPLY THAT RULE TO YOURSELF (SINCE YOU ARE ALSO A BIG קנאי )
To Berl
These guys have a certain Bilom mentality of cursing and for every question they come with new curses, so its a waste to converse with them,
I do not think this guy is a "Yoily". More like a Fogel Cohen.
I'm more concerned with the constant references to Shabse Tzvi. There is a phenomenon I've observed for a long time - the creation of a mythical SZ to replace the actual historical one. In the myth, SZ is classed primarily not as a rosho who deliberately transgressed issurim de'oraisa, lehach'is and not lete'ovon; not as someone who made a shita of plumbing the depths of tum'ah and dragged thousands of Jews with him; not as a meshumad and mechalel shem shomayim borabim; but as a "false messiah".
Yes, SZ did claim to be the Moshiach, and yes, that claim was false. He also ate chicken, and yet we don't classify him primarily as a "chicken eater". He was a Romaniote, which is at least somewhat interesting and unusual, but we don't classify him primarily as that.
The reason for classifying him primarily as a "false messiah" is not innocent - it was a deliberate (and unfortunately successful) attempt to infiltrate into the Jewish consciousness the idea that there is something wrong with "false messaiahs", that to make a claim of messiahhood and to fail is a stain on ones character, or even some sort of averah. And therefore since every person who has so far made such claims has failed at bringing them into fruition, they are all to be reviled and compared to SZ Yimach Shemo.
I'm not sure exactly who started this insidious propaganda; I greatly suspect that it was the maskilim in the 19th century. Their object would have been to cool people off the entire idea of Moshiach, and to intimidate anyone who showed signs of perhaps being the One from exploring his potential, for fear of becoming "another SZ", chas vesholom. Who knows whether there was perhaps someone who could really have brought the geulah, had he tried, but was discouraged from the attempt by this meme. Maybe we could have been spared the suffering of the 1940s!
The truth is, as the Rambam rules explicitly, that there is no shame in being a "false messiah". Harei hu kechol malchei beis dovid hakesherim. There have been many "false messiahs" in our history, from Moshe Rabbenu and Chizkiyahu Hamelech through Bar Kochva, David Alroy, and Shukar Kuchail. All of them, as far as I know, were tzadikim who tried to bring the final geulah, and failed. I have no problem listing the Rebbe among this elite. Better to have tried and failed then never to have tried.
SZ YSh does not belong on this list, because he was a rosho and therefore never a possible candidate. Even if he had somehow succeeded in overthrowing the Sultan and establishing a Jewish government in EY, he would no more have been the Moshiach than was David Ben Gurion. (Had Ben Gurion done teshuvah, however....)
milhouse - 100% correct.
imho your comment deserves to be made into post.
Berl
I liked yours too, just so you know. I just would need a good title for Milhouse's comment. Can you think of something.
I just think that some of the cerebrally challenged visitors to Circus Tent will totally miss the meaning of Milhouse's comment and see it as some sort of minimizing of ST's crimes.
Millhouse
You post is well written(as usual)but in my opinion a bit faulty on the history part.
False messiahs have always caused massive turmoil in their wake, at least real 'false messiahs', by that I mean people capable of having a real following, not unstable people with very few followers.
Shabtai Zvis claim to fame was his status as moshiach-therefore-he can change the Torah.His status as rosho only became clear as he became a moshiach and started going crazy (apparently, he suffered mental maladies)and started with the 'boruch matir asurim'
In the wake of his failure the Jewish world was torn with infighting that carried on with the followers of his talmid,Jacob Frank,and later with the terrible machloikes between R'Yaakov Emdin and R'Yonoson Eybeshitz.So the picture is very unclear to me.
Btw, Shatai Tzvi still has a following in Turkey called the Donmeh and even some guy on Sevenfatcows who has a group out on the West Coast.
Berl, I think you are stooping low, by accusing a kehilla of being immoral.How would you know?The dropouts in Williamsburg leave and are not frum,unfortunately Crown Heights is full of kids who have fried out and continue to influence the locals.
Millhouses's post has one inaccuracy, the fact that the fear of another Shabtai Tzvi was immediate, and one of the legitimate concerns of frume yidden on hearing of a new "Kat". Their fears were used to drive the wedge between many lamdanim and the early chasidim.
The revival of this fear will probably be attributed to either Kotler or Shach, whichever one first mentions it, in their revival of the older wedge between chasidim and misnagdim which had almost disappeared.
I have not seen the concept of Moshiach being done away with in writing of maskilim based on Shabtai Zvi, rather based on patriotism and nationalism. They were rarely that subtle - they prefered to use falsehood over truth in undermining Emunas Chachomim.
Why do you think R' Kotler and R' Shach wanted to revive the long dead machliokes? Do you think they had it out for all chasidim or just Lubavitch, since they felt that other chasidim had long left the true spirit of chasidus?
Would you add R' Karelitz to the bunch?
When did the become rabbonim?
When did they become advocates for the "true spirit of Chasidus"? Let alone know anything about Chasidus?
If the meisels boy would have told his father (ala R' NY Twersky) I'm Going To CH to learn in YTTL that would be understandable. In the case of Wechter, the father sent him to learn in Satmar or with a Satmare guy (supposedly) and said mechanech Lubavitchizes his son b'chashai, that in my opinion (not being a talmid chochom) is goneiv ish umechoroi.
Avremele:
"goneiv ish umechoroi"??
you have no idea what that means, and what's the geder in halocha..
Misusing words of the holy torah is a great sin..
gie learn a yiddish vort.
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