Thursday, May 6, 2010

א כשר'ע חזיר פיסל - מאל טויזענט



Natruna ad in the Washington Post this weekend - click to enlarge

An anonymous reader's comment made me realize that the topic here needs to be discussed and these lunatics - the ones that sponsored the ad on display here -exposed for what they are - Jew-haters minus the Arab scarves. They even kept most of the name, Natruna, so that they sound like Neturei Karta! We talked about Hirsh & Co., but these people may even be a greater threat, since there's less hugging of Hamas going there. Everything about them is the same; the language, the catch-phrases and the general disregard for Jewish life. The only reason they exist is because the ones who travel to Iran make them look bad, so they made a sorta toned-down version of the same group with the same ideas and the same lust for "Zionist blood." I'm not sure when this became the norm in Satmar; They were always very anti-Zionist, yes, but it was mostly when there was something to demonstrate, like when there were archeological digs in Israel and Police brutality when the digs were protested, or brutality at the Shabbos demonstrations. But as far as I know there wasn't this thing about protesting the existence of Israel or its policies about building in East Jerusalem or the Peace Process. These Natruna people pop up every once in a while and give the rest of us the absolute jitters with their rhetoric - whether spoken or in print.

Natruna is as close to Satmar as it gets. It's like Shaar Press and Artscroll, if you will - official and unofficial at the same time. When pressed against the wall Satmar can always claim that it's not them, so when the next boycott against the CRC (Hisachdus) is mentioned, like it was several years ago, they can always claim innocence. But it's a Satmar production, make no bones about it, and considering that they have other major issues on their hands; the fact that they have time and money for this is quite intriguing. Maybe one commenter on HydePark's Kol HaOlam Kulo forum summed it up right: All others have minhogim and k'peydes that they have, Levushim that they're so makpid on, and even the "Gor Veite Lubavitch" has what it does and insists on, and does it mit a shtoltz! What do we have? he asks. All we have is Emunah. The Emunah needs to be "rein," and it can only be so (not by believing in G-d, mind you) by fighting Tziyonus... Therefore, he says, we need to support the people of Natruna, he says, and fund them as much as we can.

One look at the ad and you see what they're trying to prove: basically that the soldiers in Israel are like the Soldiers in 1939, if you know what I mean. The traditional Jew just sits and prays all day. Which is the same tactic used by the Arab and Muslim media, and by student group that protest for "Palestinian rights." Not that this is something new; they've always been "Natzim" to them, but to do this in the International Media, to make a nonchalant soldier - all soldiers, that is - into some kind of brute, no matter what you think of them, is wrong. There were apparently ads running on New York radio stations as well, and I would imagine it made your blood boil as well. What you think of the Israeli Government and what you think of their policies is totally irrelevant; what we're talking about is Millions of Jewish lives here, not some petty political disagreement. I'll go out on a limb here and steal a page from thei playbook. Just like they LOVE to use the Rebbe Rashab N"E for their cause I can also say that the late Satmar Rov would never have agreed to these tactics, which basically tell the Goyim to have their way with the Jews and their State, since they're in Galus anyway and G-d wants them to suffer... He was fervently anti-State, yes, but not like this, and not for no reason. If I wouldn't know better I'd say that part of this ad looks like an Obama campaign ad...

Schneur is right, we need to find out who funds them...

129 comments:

Anonymous said...

די ארגענעזאציע איז פון די שענסטע ארגענעזאציעס ביי כלל ישראל
טויזענטער אידישע קינדער זענען איינשטימיג דערמיט
איך ווינטש מיר צו האבן די גרויסע זכות וואס זיי האבן
לכבוד אייערע מיאוסע רייד דא גיי איך זיי אריין שיקען נאך געלט
א סאטמארער חסיד

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

פארגעס נישט בעטן א רעסיט

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אויך דארפט איר זיי זאגן אז מיר קומט זיך א קאמישין, ווייל בזכות מיר האט איר אריינגעשיקט די פאר דאלאר

zezmir said...

All of a sudden they're, oh so patriotic Americans? Loyal supporters of President Obama?
Funny, these are probably the same guys that were all gung-ho for Dinkins vs Rudy back in 1990. Who says that Frum Jews are politically Conservative? I just find it ironic that the Reform, CT and Tikkun Olam crowd share seats with these Anti-Zionists in the Left-Wing-Democrat section...

Anonymous said...

Have you ever thought about what the Torah says about this?

There are 2 great sefurim about these issues, I would recommend everyone to first read them, and then think before the form an opinion based on what hashem wants.

Here are links to the 2 sefurim
http://www.mysatmar.com/docs/shite_hakdoshe/vayoel_moshe.pdf

http://www.mysatmar.com/docs/shite_hakdoshe/al-hagileh.pdf

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אנאנימעס

we all know about the seforim. Thanks.

Is there allowed to be a difference of opinion here, or are we all forced to follow the Shitteh?

Also, the point is not what you think about the State. I thought I was clear about that.

Anonymous said...

ציונות איז דער גרעסטער חורבן פאר כלל ישראל ביי אידן, אבער נישט ביי ליובאוויטשער.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ר' איד
ציונות איז שוין לאנג געשטארבן, חוץ ביי א קליינע קבוצה מתנחלים

היינט איז - דאנקן ג-ט - דא גרעסערע פראבלעמן

Anonymous said...

די עמלקים זענען שויך אויך געשטארבן אבער מיר זענען מחויב זכור אשר עשה לך עמלק, קיינער קען נישט זאגן איך קוק נישט אויף די עמלקים, זיי זענען שוין נישטא און איך בין פטור פון די מצוה.

Anonymous said...

"א קליינע קבוצה" אידן זענען אייביג געווען א קליינע קבוצה, כי לא מרובכם מכל העמים שטייט אין די תורה.

ביי אידן ווייסט מען אז ציונות לעבט, און עמלק וועט נישט אפגעמעקט ווערן ביז משיח וועט קומען, כי יד כל כס-קה, מלחמה לה' בעמלק מדור דור, שטייט אין די תורה, אין יעדן דור האבן געלעבט די קבוצה מתנחלים - וויאזוי דו רופסט זיי - און זיי האבן מלחמה געהאלטן מיט די כופרים בה' ובתורתו.

אז עס געפעלט דיר נישט אז מען האלט מלחמה מיט זיי אויף די וועגן וואס אידן האבן געטון אין אלע דורות, גיי ארויס מיט א פייפער אין מויל און שריי "פייפן אויף די וועלט".

אבער אידישקייט באדייט עפעס אנדערש, פאר אידישקייט דארף מען זיך מוסר נפש זיין, און זיין די זעלבע משוגענער וואס מרדכי הצדיק איז געווען בדורו ווען ער האט געשריגן אויף די גאסן ווי א בהמה, אדער חנני' מישאל ועזרי', אדער דער חתם סופר בשעתו, אדער דער הייליגער ויואל משה בשעתו.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

כ'האב נישט געוואוסט אז ירמי' כהן איז די חתם סופר בדורנו

אויב איז ווי איר זאגט, פארוואס הערט מען נישט אז די רבי'ס פון סאטמאר, אדער עכ"פ דער פון וועלכע איר זענט א נאכפאלגער,זאל אפענערהייט שטיצן דער ארגעניזאציע???

A Yiddish Kind said...

It's obvious that you didn't bother to look into the above mentioned seforim, otherwise you wouldn't claim that Zionism is dead. The rebbe clearly states (ahgvah"t pg 133, vy"m pg 8) that as long as the medina exists it's holding back moshiach from coming, Dead or not, the medina's existence is every yid's problem.

Natrina's ad was to educate the public that not all jews share the same reaction regarding Obama's policies, that some jews reject the idea that the isreal represents all jews or the torah

BTW natrina has nothing with NK, the name just means waiting in patiance for mushiach

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The rebbe clearly states (ahgvah"t pg 133, vy"m pg 8) that as long as the medina exists it's holding back moshiach from coming, Dead or not, the medina's existence is every yid's problem.

for a second I thought I was reading about the Lubavitcher Rebbe....

I didn't realize that Halochoh begins ends with the Satmar Rov...

let me ask you: is Natruna's ad gonna make the medinah all of a sudden go away?!

It may have nothing to do with NK, but the danger is just as great.

A Yiddish Kind said...

We all have our rebbe's, you follow yours I follow mine. It's not your halacha it's mine. But please don't call my halacha a pigs foot.

I didn't say natrina's ad is going to make the medina disappear, read my above comment on their current mission again if you missed their intent.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I didn't call your Halochoh a pig's foot, only the organization.

You DO know about that expression in Yiddish, right?

Anonymous said...

Just so everyone can read it, I thought that it would be a benefit to everyone that I post the actual words of the advertisement. And you hershel, maybe can educate us as to what is wrong with it, paragraph by paragraph.

HERE IS THE EXACT WORDING FROM THE ADVERTISEMENT

Recently, self-proclaimed Jewish leaders launched a provocative campaign of newspaper advertisements regarding the policies of the American administration on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Perhaps some are left with the impression that these individuals indeed represent American Jewry.
The fact is, they represent only themselves.
We, traditional Torah Jews, are distressed and appalled by these ads, as well as by the Zionists' tactic of abusing American Jewry to advance their agenda. Therefore, we hereby publicize the following facts:
Fact: Zionism is not Judaism.
The Zionist ideology is fundamentally anti-Torah. Zionism has not only denied the fundamental Jewish belief in Heavenly Redemption; it has created a pseudo-Judaism which replaces the Torah with nationalism.
Thus, the State of Israel cannot – and should not – claim to represent worldwide Jewry, nor should the Zionist State be identified as a Jewish State.
Certain groups may argue that Jerusalem is “higher than politics.” However, according to the Torah, Jerusalem has no relation to politics at all. The holiness of Jerusalem is divine and does not depend on who governs it.
True Torah Jews are outraged by this ongoing ploy, in which the Zionists attempt to create the impression that the holy Torah is behind their hard-line, nationalistic goals. It is not!
Fact: Traditional Jews are loyal to the United States government.
At the time of the destruction of the Holy Temple and the exile of the Jewish People, the great Biblical prophet Jeremiah proclaimed G-d’s message to all Jews: “Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you, and pray for it to G-d, for through its welfare will you have welfare.” (Jeremiah 29:7) For millennia, this has been a cornerstone of Jewish conduct.
As American Jews, we pray for the wellbeing and prosperity of the government of the United States of America, headed by Honorable President Barack Obama.
And of course, we continue to pray for the safety and wellbeing of Jews all over the world, including those in the Holy Land.
The blurring of the boundary between Judaism and Zionism jeopardizes the safety of Jews living all over the world, including our brethren in the Holy Land.

Anonymous said...

Dear Tzig,

Firstly thank you for bringing this to peoples attention, maybe it will be a zchus for you, even though you didn’t mean it in a positive way, but remember “machshuve ruah ayn hkb”h metstarfha lmasah”.

Since you always promote freedom of believe, how does holding by the “shite” become “Jew-haters minus the Arab scarves”? Did you see in the ad any wishing for Jewish blood? Did you see any negative words against Jews? All they say is that Israel is against the Jewish religion and thus it can’t claim to speak in its name, and they also say that Jews are commended, and indeed are loyal citizens of the country they live in.

Do you think this is Jew hating? how? Did you see any alliance with terrorists or for that matter, even with the left in this country? Did you see any lust for “Zionist blood”?

And yes not only is “Natruna is as close to Satmar as it gets” it indeed is Satmar itself, from the management, to the donors, to the people engaged in the workings of the organization, in fact this organization is one of the only ones that hasn’t been effected by the schism in Satmer, and is supported by the rabbis and dayunim from both sides, this ad was covered in both the Yid and in the Blat, in the most adoring way, in fact it was the main headline above the fold in the Yid, and is front page news in the Blat.

And yes the Satmer Rav commended his people to do this work he said quote
"מהעט ווען געדארפט האבן מסירת נפש צו מפרסם זיין אז די ציונים פארטרעטען נישט כלל ישראל"

and he also commended his people to use the radio to proclaim this, yes a demonstration was usually for a specific problem, but proclaiming in general the difference between the Jews and the so called Jewish state, was not only what he preached, but indeed in his time every year the CRC ran an ad in the paper to notify the world of this believe.

And I don’t see where the ad talks about the soldier in a bad way, all it says is that the soldier and the traditional Jew are two completely different entities and thus by does not have the right to talk in its name.

Sorry for going long, and yes your bios is VERY VERY apparent.

A Yiddish Kind said...

If you'r interested I'll show you countless places where the satmar rebbe says it's extremely important to let the world know that the medina does not represent all jews. He also ran ads himself in the NYT and more.

That's Natrina's mission.

This organization is continuing what the satmar rebbe asked.

sakmar said...

Sakmar should settle their internal fights before they start this garbage.
I say boycott CRC!!!
If all the modern orthodox boycott these parasites they"ll know there is a cost to stabbing yidden in rikken.
Neturei Karta would not bow because they meant it auf an emmes, these drekkes are stam reshuim

Anonymous said...

אוי ר'הירשל,

איר פרעגט ווער עס שאפט די פאנדן פאר נטרונא?

די זעלבע וואס שטיצן און שאפן געלט פאר רובאשקין, נו זאכט איר אליינס ווער:

סאטמארער עסקנים.

אגב, וואלט ליובאוויטש אויך געמעגט אריינלייגן א פינגער אין קאלט וואסער צו העלפן זייערס א מענטש.

וואו זענען אייערע קאנעקשאנס? הא?

Anonymous said...

Thank you Mr. Tzig for bringing us the info about this website and article.
I already sent out their newsletter to tons of e-mails of family, friend, and coworkers.
I printed it out and give to mey kids and put it in shul this shabbos.
Thank to you a few hundred people more will read their great writing about the danger of the zionist.
should it be to your Zchis !!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אזוי? סאטמאר נעמט קרעדיט אויף שאפן געלט פאר רובאשקין? און איך האב נעבאך געמיינט אז די קרעדיט קומט פאר די ליטווישע, ובראשם פנחס ליפשיץ!
די איינציקע קאנעקשינס וואס איך האב איז די COMMUNITY CONNECTIONS MAGAZINE וועלכע ערשיינט וועכענטליך אין מאנסי און האט גוטע סעילס

Anonymous said...

הערשל, אייער מהלך המחשבה איז זייער אינטערסאנט און ציענד, איר הלאט די פעדער אין די רעכטע האנט. עס איז מיר א פלא אז איר רערפרענצירט פון כל העולם כולו די פורום פון חסידי ר' אהרן פון סאטמאר. ווייסט איר דען נישט אז מען קען דארט קיין ווארט נישט גלייבן?נאך מער נעמט א בליק אינם פורום פון זייערע קעגנער http://www.bhol.co.il/forum/forum.asp?cat_id=4&forum_id=21016
עס וועט אייך אסאך מאל וויי טון דאס בויך פון לאכן ווען איר וועט זיך דארט איבערצייגן אז רוב פון זיי אליינס זענען אננגעשטעקט מיט ציונות ב"ה אפילו זייער מנהיג ר' אהרן האט אויך געמינטערט דעם עולם צו פארן קיין מירון

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

איך פארשטיי ב"ה וואס די פורום איז און ווער זיי זענען - אבער דוקא זיי ווילן ווייזן אז זיי זענען נישט שולדיג אין דעם וואס מ'באשולדיגט זיי. די ליצנות פון ערליכע, פיינע אידן פון וועם זיי האבן ביז לעצטנס ממש געהאלטן, ווי די תו"א רבי שליט"א וכדומה, איז א הימל געשריי

Minkatcher Aynikle said...

I have to dig up the drushe that the Minkatcher Ruv gave in the mid 90s where he blasted these guys. He said that the derech against tzionus was never to walk hand in hand with Arabs. He spoke about how Yerushalmi yidden, if they bumped into a Arab after going to the Mikveh, would go back and retoivel.

itsi said...

איז דאס נישט ליצנות ?

http://www.bhol.co.il/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=2776704&forum_id=21016

http://www.bhol.co.il/forum/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=2785607&forum_id=21016

LkwdGuy said...

The concept behind these ads is to weaken U.S. support for the State of Israel, that is undeniable. Weakened US support for the SOI directly places millions of yidden in danger, that is also undeniable. Ergo, those involoved in placing these ads, from the 'rabbinic' supporters to the finiancial backers to the graphic artists, are directly increasing the danger for millions of yidden. Now explain to me again, why should I not see them as evil people?

Anonymous said...

"איז דאס נישט ליצנות ?"

There is a difference between engaging in rank silliness and giving a "Pischon Peh" to our enemies. This ad does the latter.

Anonymous said...

"And I don’t see where the ad talks about the soldier in a bad way, all it says is that the soldier and the traditional Jew are two completely different entities and thus by does not have the right to talk in its name."

They sure are different. The soldier on the right goes to the front lines to keep enemies at bay so the "Torah True Jew" on the left can enjoy the safety and freedom to throw rocks at him and call him a Nazi!

Anonymous said...

Ayiddishe King
"as long as the medina exists it's holding back moshiach from coming, Dead or not, the medina's existence is every yid's problem."
how idiotic to quote the (satmar)Rebbe on a stupid statement, you are only embarrassing him, Nu, lets see the facts,till 1948 Moshiach was here but now moshiach is not here, First of all the yismach moshe brings in the name of the arizal that moshiach is not coming because of Zera Levatolo, did we fix that problem in the Monroe and Queens yeshiva.Do we have 1 problem that stops Moshiach? or a few?

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"And yes the Satmer Rav commended his people to do this work he said quote
"מהעט ווען געדארפט האבן מסירת נפש צו מפרסם זיין אז די ציונים פארטרעטען נישט כלל ישרא
Does the Satmar rov needs a source when he throws out a hollow statement or he was beyond Torah? he was hollering in the few days in his house before the the medina Az Si Vet Nisht Zien, then he said it will not survive, so far its surviving.Thank Hashem Yisborech his prophecies ended in A Ziefan Blouz.

money talks said...

lubavitch
used to have the same views but shazar gave money for MMS so he join and advocate for the Hertzelists

Anonymous said...

A yiddish King
"If you'r interested I'll show you countless places where the satmar rebbe says it's extremely important"
He made a mistake, his Ideology is built that all gedolim are mistaking but him, he never thought that he was mistaking. He was mistaking with the Bechiras, mistaking on the Mosdos taking money from the government, all the factions Litvish/Chasidim/ Sefardim in Israel have grown from these Mosdos to 100 of Thousands Batim Nemonim Beyisroel with noting less then Benai Yoel in KJ,The level of Tzenius is on the same level just with a shitel (they are not into Divrie Chaim they can use the other shitos that are miekel, the would rather be machmir on Loshen Hora with the 36 lavim)

Anonymous said...

LkwdGuy
you are so right, their ego of not facing the facts will bring us all down, they are as bad as Greenbaum that didn"t help Wiessmandel because of his beliefs, At the moment they are Rodfim having a share in a dangerous path for a long expired belief.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"די ארגענעזאציע איז פון די שענסטע ארגענעזאציעס ביי כלל ישראל
טויזענטער אידישע קינדער זענען איינשטימיג דערמיט
is it a nice organization because thousands support it, does it have more members then PETA? Reform Movement?
who cares how many idiots support it, didn"t Satmar Rov teach you not to be influenced by the masses?.

Anonymous said...

""trying to do what's right. The purpose of this blog was to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere. I hope I've accomplished that objective.""
chabad became the ultra zionists that if someone brings out the CHOSHECH CHUPL UMECHUPEL from the zionist he is bashing chabad

MISES NESHIKA said...

ציונות איז שוין לאנג געשטארבן
"
in lubavitch they don't know whatגעשטארבן is
but to clarify your statement I would still ask you what ציונות Is
that lived , and when did did it die,
I would say id Died MISES NESHIKA when the NESIEIM Kissed Each Other

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"The holiness of Jerusalem is divine and does not depend on who governs it."
so why did Duvid fight the Pelishtim? if its anyway divine?

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"and he also commended his people to use the radio to proclaim this,"
Oi Vey,I don't buy this lie? the Tomene Kailim, it is the same Krumkiet like the Lubabs from Sorbone,

Anonymous said...

Some of the good jews commenting here are well meaning but uninformed:

Satmar Rav was not the only gadol who said that we won't merit the geula unless that medina is botel.

The Chazon Ish used even sharper phrases on this issue.

I would recommend that you should nat comment on this unless you've done your research on this topic or else you might sound very ignorant.

There is an objective work published by Netruna אפס בלתך גואלינו which be a nice headstart on pure amunah education.

Be blessed

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"There are 2 great sefurim about these issues, I would recommend everyone to first read them, "
you are better off when people don"t read. The Munkatcher was much smarter he was screaming by the Torah kofrim and thats it, he never wrote a Sefer about it.By writing a sefer the Satmar rov opened a can of worms, you start to realize that not the Shulchan Orech and not the Rambam bring down this new religion as halacha. Thats 1 of the reason that 90% of Satmar Hasidim don"t learn the Sefurim since it can lead to heresy.

Anonymous said...

anon
"The Chazon Ish used even sharper phrases on this issue."
Do you have it in print in his Igrois? 5 volumes Chazon Ish? or Elyokim Schlesinger from London produced a lie?
on Hilchos Tefilin we don"t need a sefer Effes Biltecho" to find sources, it is in Rambam, Tor,Shulchan Orech,Mishna Berura. when you have a sefer for the sources thats enough to conclude that the source are as important as Spitting by Oleini

Igeres Tiemon said...

most instructions for lmasaha that the Rambam wrote in Igeres Teiman where not repeated in mishna torah
nevertheless the instruction in IT are clear not to listen to Hretzel Kook Schnierson

Anonymous said...

Anon
"self-proclaimed Jewish leaders"
is their some guidepost to become a non self proclaimed Jewish Leader, is Ekstien, Niderman, Sender Deutsch, Shmuel Vieder Arye Lieb Glantz or Moshe Ber Beck. who decides Itzu Glick?

Anonymous said...

Mises Neshika,
Your Litzuness leave for the toldos Aron Rebbes box in Miron,

Anonymous said...

דעבאטע אהער אהין כאפט איין אריבער קיין " http://www.natrina.org " און זעהט עין בעין וואס האבן די גדולי ישראל געזאגא ווען וועלט איז נאל געווען וועלט פאר חורבן הגוף [היטלע"ר ימשן"ז] און חורבן הנפש [די ציונים ימח שמם וזכרם] און זייערע פרומע נאכשלעפערס.

די ציונים ימח שמם - נא וויזוי רעדסטו!
"גדול המחטיאו יותר מן ההורגו - הם שמידו יהדות תימן, בוכארא, ילדי טעהראן, וגם לרבות הילדים היצומים האומללים ניצולים מגיא ההריגה ממלחמת העולם השניה

Anonymous said...

is Gutnik funding them?

Anonymous said...

A simple question to the Natrunoa group, in your new religion when was the limit for the German Jew to stop congratulating the Nazi regime? on the Train to Auschwitz? or in the ghetto? 72 minutes before the train arrived? can u share with us the handbook for this halochas? who wrote them Reb Getzel? or the Sharmasher?

Anonymous said...

אינטערעסאנט, עס ווערט געברענגט אין די גמרא און אין זוה"ק און נאך מקורות אשר מפיהם אנו חיים, די שרעקליכע ירידה וואס עס וועט זיין בעיקבתא דמשיחא, אידן וועלן זיין אין די נידריגסטע מדריגה, אין די נ' שערי טומאה. אבער לשיטתם פון די אלע וואס לויבן די מדינה הטמאה, קומט גאר אויס אז זיי האבן נישט געוואוסט וואס זיי רעדן (ח"ו צו טראכטן אזוי), דאס אידישע פאלק (אין מדינת ישראל) גיבט דאך ארויס די שענסטע און די בעסטע, כדוגמתם בכל הדורות. באמת אומפארשטענדליך וואס די תנאים ואמוראים האבן דא גערעדט ברוח קדשם. די חברה האלטן זיך פאר "קלוגער"!

אינטערעסאנט איז אויך, אז אויף די אלע רשעים, וועלכע זענען מחלל די גאנצע תוה"ק ותרי"ג מצוות וועלכע מיר האבן מקבל געווען אויפן הר סיני און מיט דעם געווארן "סגולה מכל העמים" "עם ישראל", די רשעים, מחללי שבת ויו"ט ויוהכ"פ בפרהסיא, אוכלים חמץ בפסח, נבילות וטריפות וחזיר, בועלי נכריות, עוברי ע"ז ג"ע שפ"ד, דאווענען נישט און ווייסן נישט פון השי"ת, ברעכן אן די ביינער באכזריות פון אידישע קינדער וואס זענען מוחה אויף חילול ה', (וועלכע זענען מקיים דעם הוכח תוכיח און זענען מחמיר אויף זיך עד כדי הכאה ועד בכלל), אויף די רשעים מעג מען, און דארף מען, "מלמד זכות" זיין, נעבעך תינוקות שנשבו; אבער די ערליכע אידן וואס זענען זיך מוסר נפש למען ה' ותורתו, הגם מיר האבן אונזער אייגענע יצה"ר, צי מחלוקת, צי הוז"ל, באמת א יצה"ר וואס מען פרובירט צו באקעמפן, און מיר ווייסן קלאר אז דאס איז א מלחמה תמידית, השי"ת זעהט אונזער יגיעה, און דאס האט א חשיבות כלפי מעלה, אבער וויבאלד מיר זענען נישט איינשטימיג מיט די מדינה מעג מען אונז באשמוצן! אלע חיובים פון לימוד זכות פאלט אוועק! וואס ווייזט דאס? אז די גאנצע שטיק איז בלויז א "זייפן בלאז" צו פארדעקן די אייגענע שמוץ! בושה תכסה פניכם. און אויב ווייזט מען אויף דעם שקר, שרייט מען "וואס איז מיט ענקער מחלוקת?". כאילו דאס איז עפעס א תירוץ..

יעצט, צום ענין. אפגעזעהן פון די שיטה, איז קלאר אז עס איז א פליכט אויף אונז אידן "דרשו את שלום העיר", "הוי מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות", וואס איז געזאגט געווארן אפילו אויף א מלכות וואס איז גוזר גזירות רעות ח"ו, און עאכו"כ אויף א צוגעלאזענע מלכות, ווי אין אמעריקע. פון וואו נעמט מען דעם היתר צו באשמוצן, באגראבן לעבעדיגערהייט, און פארברענען קאריקאטורן, פון דעם הויכגעשעצטן פרעזידענט? ווי נעמט מען דעם היתר צו קריגן דערויף?

אבער עוד יש דברים בגו. אפילו אן דעם חיוב מן התורה, ווי אזוי קענען צייטונגען ווי יתד האקן אויפן פרעזידענט. גייט דאס דען אויפטון? אודאי נישט! גייט דאס אפטון? בלי שום ספק! אבאמא דארף דאס צו לייענען און בלייבן אן אוהב ישראל? דאס רעגט דאך אויף מיליאנען אמעריקאנער! מיט וועלכע רעכט פארשווארצן זיי אונז דאס פנים? צי ווייסט איר נישט אז מיר זיצן ביי זיי אין לאנד, און זיי טוען אונז בלויז א טובה אריינצולאזן אין אמעריקע? מיר זענען אין גלות! מיר האבן נישט קיין אייגן לאנד! צו וואס ארויסרופן דעם בער פון וואלד און זיי אויפרעגן? האט זיך דען נישט כלל ישראל געפירט אין אלע דורות צו זאגן "הנותן תשועה למלכים"?

ועוד בה שלישי', נניח אז אבאמא איז נישט גערעכט מיט זיין שיטה, אבער אלע ווייסן אז אבאמא וויל באמת די טובה פון מדינת ישראל, ער האלט אז די אמת'ע טובה איז צו מאכן שלו', אבער וויבאלד ער טראכט אנדערש, רופט מען אים אן "אנטיסעמיט"? דאס איז דאך אן אבסורד! מען רייצט אים אויף! פון וואו נעמט מען אזא בלינדע פאנאטישע בליק, אן קיין שום שכל והגיון?

און דאס איז די געוואלדיגע ארבעט פון "נטרונא", אויף וועלכן מיר זענען אלע זייער דאנקבאר! זיי האבן גארנישט מיט נטורי קרתא. גארנישט מיט "סעלף העיטינג דזשוס", אדרבה, זיי האבן מורא מה יולד יום, איזהו חכם הרואה את הנולד, "וואס איז שוין געבוירן געווארן" כפי' החת"ס, מען קוקט צוריק איף אלע דורות אין גלות, וואס אידן האבן געליטן פון די בריונים, און אפילו נאך בזמן שביהמ"ק הי' קיים! און כדי אונז מציל צו זיין פון די צעווילדעוועטע ברואים, איז מען מפרסם א רואיגע מודעה אז די ווילדע ברואים, מיט די אלע לאביאיסטן, זענען נישט אונז. מיר האבן זיי נישט געשיקט (טאקע נישט!) זיי פארטרעטן נישט אונז! וואס איז אזוי שלעכט דערמיט? פארוואס הייסט דאס אריינשטעקן א מעסער אין רוקן פון כלל ישראל?

Anonymous said...

Why don't we just say that the Rebbe dealt with the reality of the medina. The Satmar Rebbe dealt with it in the oylamos, in how a torah yid should view the medina. No contradiction, just difference of opinion on how to deal with it.
The proof is that until the late 1960's, the relationship between the Rabbeim themselves was warm.

The Satmar Rebbe fought that the fact that zionism delays moshiach which was commonplace before the war is not connected to whether frum or frayer people are running the medina.....that is a second and totally separate issue.

The Rebbe as stated in his first maamar was to rebuild a broken generation who was not ready to hear what he really thought about the medina for risk or alienating yidden.

The Satmar Rebbe and Rebbe worked together. One was worried about being mekarev and the other was worried that the shita held be the majority of chardi yidden before the war should not be forgotten.

The Satmar Rebbe could be sharp and extreme because the Rebbe was mekarev and the Rebbe could be mekarev because the Satmar Rebbe ensured the true hashkofo would not be forgotten. Each one could do what they did because each played a vital role knowing the other played their role....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The point here is not the shittah, or what you think about the medinah. It's what you go and tell the world, it's whether or not you put Jews in danger!

Anonymous said...

Why don't Satmar tell the world what we think about terkish talesim.

The only goyim interested in the Neturei Karta are the ones looking to destroy us......

It seems we have enough of those on the inside......

Anonymous said...

To paraphrase Reb Yoilesh: if the Besht might have said something about the three oaths, you guys would react differently.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

to paraphrase an old Jewish idiom:

ווען מיין באבע וואלט געהאט רעדער וואלט זי געווען א טראמוויי

Kalisz said...

What cant all of you understand??? Tzig is not necessarily disagreeing with your shittes on tzionism...but when they hang it out for the goyim to see, it brings blowback! dont you get it??? dont you remember what the satmer rebbe said about the anti-zionist goyim=anti semites? why give them ammunition? we must keep it internal.

dovy said...

tzig,
nice job bashing others for "hate" but you really showed what a hater you are.
if you still don't get it, these guys are not the ones who placed jews in danger, the zionists are. they are the ones who brought back open anti-semitims to the world and made the entire world forget their guilt about the holocaust. they are the ones who caused the import of anti-semitism to the arab nations, where it rarely existed before. it goes without saying that working to weaken zionism will decrease anti-semitism.
please pick your oversized head out of the sand and learn to use your moiach over your hergeshim as a chabadsker would say.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"To paraphrase Reb Yoilesh: if the Besht might have said something about the three oaths, you guys would react differently."
it's interesting the talmid of the Besht said Koach Hapoal Benifal, and nobodu is listening, its was good fodder for his morning Shmoozing with the Talith on The Pelietza but not factual.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"אבער אלע ווייסן אז אבאמא וויל באמת די טובה פון מדינת ישראל, ער האלט אז די אמת'ע טובה איז צו מאכן שלו
Tell me the truth, is Natrunoa ready to make peace with Israel when Israel will make peace with its Neighbor according a peace plan set up by your Czar Obama. Will we put the Veyoel Moshe in Shaimos? You have the same agenda as Hamas and stop camouflaging your deep hatred.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"הוי מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות", וואס איז געזאגט געווארן אפילו אויף א מלכות וואס איז גוזר גזירות רעות ח"ו, "
it is not Yeharag veal Yavor,don't take a little Mussar of Perek and make the pillar of Judaism.Is Shiva Devorin Begolem also Yeharag veal Yavor? Did you people also give Chizuk for George Bush when he was pro Israel or he wasn"t a real Goy,I remember Fulop the spokesman for the 3 oaths in our generation writing that Bush is "Milchoma Tzinder" poshut the president was a Misgareh Beumos.... you guys are cookooo

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"We, traditional Torah Jews, are distressed and appalled by these ads"
My father, my friends, and most of Traditional Jews in Eretz Yisroel and the diaspora are not distressed by this ads, they are gladly represented on this issues by Bibi Nethanyau,rather then a few irresponsible guys in a basement on Bedford corner Ross st. You can argue that we are all apikorsim since we don't believe in the new Ani Mamins.We are all as traditional as the Tietelbaum clan we just are keeping all mitzvahs in the Shulchan Orech as not going to court in the US and in Israel and not doing massive chilul hashems on a daily basis in upstate New York and Down State neither, most of the traditional Jewish Mosdos don"t steal as much Money as your clan. I beg please,start all your hate messages writing the truth as "We the people that will never cling from the Veyoel Moshe even we will see the halacha is not on our side would like to see the state of Israel wiped off the face of the earth", and then go on with your drek...

Pot-2-Kettle-Black Baryonim said...

Anony of 7:58

Excellent and compelling arguments but if you read English I hope that you'll answer several questions I pose in English ...err Goyish

Why do supporters of Natruna think nothing of storming Police Stations when they perceive an injustice?

Why do supporters of Natruna think nothing of overturning Police cars when they perceive an injustice?

Why do supporters of Natruna think nothing of cheating on programs and taxes and generally exuding an aura of being completely above the law of the land whose welfare they pray for?

Why do supporters of Natruna think nothing of exploiting and cheating the hired help and letting them know with their whole holoch yeylaich that they are little more than animals in their eyes?

Why do supporters of Natruna think nothing of cutting lines in supermarkets, retail stores and amusement parks frequented by non-Jews and/ or double and triple parking to save half a block walking on shopping avenues where non-Jews shop... again letting them know with their whole holoch yeylaich that they are little more than animals in their eyes?

היש לכם גירוי באומות בלי משפט גדולה מזו? און טאמיר קענט איר מלמד זכות זיין...אדרבה.עס וואלט מיך זייר אינטערעסירט צו ליינען. די צביעות פון די אזוי-גערופענער פאטררייטערס פון דברי יואל'ס זי"ע שיטה, וואס שפירען יעדער תנועה קלה פון גירוי באומות ביי יענער אבער זענען אין גאנצ'ן בלינד צו דער ריזיג טאג-טעגלעך צוגאנג פון גירוי באומות איו זייערע אייגענע מחנה און חנוך איז אום-גלויבלעש און עקעלהאפטיג

Anonymous said...

This is onlt the "tip of the iceberg" re the Rebbe's shita - but it should definitely give some perspective:

R. Uriel Tzimmer z"l (featured on this blog previously) wore many hats throughout his career, eventually becoming Chabad. A talented writer, he wrote a booklet called "HaTorah V'HaMedina" (approx. 5715?) with the rebbe's directive. It wouldn't fall short of Satmar material.. But when the Rebbe saw how this post-Holocaust generation reacted to it, he said to cease printing it and that it should remain merely in one's heart etc.

There's many stories such - The Rebbe screaming at Shulzinger Bros. for printing "Yom HaAtzmaut" in the calendar, etc.. v'akatzer.

The idea is all the same - pre-Shazar, post-Shazar - Lubavitch has its shitos, but we have to be mekarev the Yidden in EY just the same as anywhere else.

I'll stop here, but there's plenty of resources, v'lo b'shuftoni askinan.. Those who intentionally pull the wool over their eyes (as to Lubavitch's stance) will just continue to do so.

A Gutten Shabbos to all!

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:56:00

I don’t know where you get your information, but the same organization put out numerous ads in newspapers and on the radio, while bush was in office with the same massage!!

It will help you a lot if you visit there website and check out the material, including the ads they previously put out there!

And to “Pot-2-Kettle-Black “I here "the shturmer" is looking for an editorial writer you would fit perfectly in!!

Just Remember, this kind of stereotyping cost us 6,000,000 not to long ago!

Pot-2-Kettle-Black Baryonim said... said...

I call you out breaking Godwins law.

How about answering the questions instead of demonizing? BTW there are few if any such charges that I could make stick on MO Young Israel types, ya those tziyonim aririm who are dumb enough to still say Hallel on Yom haatzmaut even after Gush Katif.

My point is everyone is a misgareh b'imos in different ways. Naturna shoudl take a look in the mirror and clean up their own girui b'imos before publishing full page ads condemning others.

Pot-2-Kettle-Black Baryonim said...

.Just Remember, this kind of stereotyping cost us 6,000,000 not to long ago!

Hmm...dear me! and all this time I was thinking that it was Tziyonis and Tziyonim who cost us the 6 million. You sure that you're a follower of the shitteh?

Pot-2-Kettle-Black Baryonim said...

O and BTW I'm equally capable of singing Naturna followers praises;

Supporters of Natruna have tremendously high kashris and tzneeyis standards.

Supporters of Natruna are second to none in Bikur Cholim.

Supporters of Natruna gave the world Hatzalah and Dor Yeshorim genetic testing

Supporters of Natruna have helped beleagered Temanim like no other group partially redressing a horrible historic crime perpetrated on Temanim by the Tziyonim showing tremendous arvus from two angles.

But let's call a spade a spade. Believing sincerely everything I write in this comment I also believe everything I posted in my first comment and am still waiting for someone to address the questions instead of shooting the messenger.

I don't hate yidden...only hypocrisy and smugness.

Anonymous said...

To the very smart “Pot-2-Kettle-Black”

I wasn’t trying to answer your question, what you call a question is nothing of the sort, its stereotyping, and is exactly what the anti-Semites used all the years, sorry to put it so harshly, it doesn’t deserve to be answered, see how a real “question” from another writer was very nicely addressed.

Remember the “better Jews” that didn’t fit the profile you give to “Natruna supporters”, were also rounded up by the Germans! To show you that the reasoning given by a hater for hating someone or something, is usually not the truth, it’s an underlying hate that’s the cause, and the reasoning given is just for a cover to others, and sometimes for the hater themselves.

And just so you know Godwins law doesn’t apply when pushing back on anti-Semitic arguments, which you are guilty of!

Hmm...dear me! and all this time I was thinking that it was Tziyonis and Tziyonim who cost us the 6 million. You sure that you're a follower of the shitteh?

Very smart, do you even think for a moment, I didn’t think that this very smart comment was coming? Sorry I overestimated your intelligence!

Just to put it in perspective I’ll use your words with a little twist!

Hmm...dear me! and all this time I was thinking that it was the Romans who were to blame for the destruction of the temple. You sure that you're a believer in Tenach, were Yeremiah says that the bad behavior of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael were to blame?

If you can’t comprehend “Schar veonesh” I cant help you!

I don't hate yidden

Right, only a certain kind of yidden!

Isaac Balbin said...

Thanks for this advertisement. I will circulate it widely and include an additional page which will state:

I _________ hereby state publically that I strongly disagree with the sentiments expressed in this advertisement. In particular, I think it is grossly inappropriate to place such advertisements in the press.

I __________ hereby state that I follow Gedolay HaDor who do not agree that Medinat Yisrael prevents Mashiach coming in anyway and that I implicitly disagree with the views expressed in V'Yoel Moshe and that Medinat Yisrael should be supported.

Next time a collector comes to my door, they will be asked to sign the above. If they don't, which is their right, let them find someone who subscribes to their views and ask them to support their Mosdos. Unfortunately, I am not at the level of Rav Kook zt"l and I can't bring myself to support these folk (as he did) given that I vehemently disagree with them.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"while bush was in office with the same massage"
There was awhile in the bush presidency when he was was fully 100% behind Israel in not pushing them for returning territories, until Sharon decided be Mr Nice Guy on the backs of the Misnachlim and die with a legacy of a peace maker, did Nartunoa come out with ads to thank Bush for being on the side of the right wing in Israel? or the Shlome shel Malchius of the Malchus Shel Chesed is only applied when the US Govt. are with the leftwing and the Arabs? don"t fool me with your nonsense I know your tactics well,your views regarding Isreal is parallel to Hamas Rachmono Litzlon,(Bli Shim Tzar... as it used to be rubber stamped in allSidurim by the Sands street boys)

Anonymous said...

A Yiddish Kind
"This organization is continuing what the satmar rebbe asked."
why do I or Klal Yisroel care what he held, his view was a minority then when the whole Dor Dieh after the war was around as the Chebiner Rov and Reb Isser Zalmen were on the opposite side of him, he was a torah midget against this 2 giants, they were part of a full gallery of Gedolim Ukedoshim, and it is still is a minoroty, he failed big time. So what gives you the right to be the Self Proclaimed leaders of True Torah Jewry?( its words that you people love to use) be honest that it is only the view of Satmar Chasidim with the CRC which was always a front for Satmar to look universal, and today it's only serving as a tool for 1 holy Titelbaum to bury the other holy Titelbaum brother, with a hashgocha weaker then Chof K

Anonymous said...

Anon
"And to “Pot-2-Kettle-Black “I here "the shturmer" is looking for an editorial writer you would fit perfectly in!!"
its absurd that you are claiming that someone scribbling on a unimportant website who is mad on some irresponsible jews who are going full blast in the International media with a Jewish laced Hamas Message putting in danger the Am Hayoshev Betzion. and you have the chutzpa to call him the Shturmer. You idiots are helping the same people that are ready to put the whole of Israel Kanoim Mizrochnikes on trains to Auschwitz? its all for some appetite to show De Rebbe Iz Geven Gerecht.He is in Olam Hoemes and he long realized that he was Wrong million times.He was a outcast when he put out his controversial seforim, you will not find his seforim in no shul that not satmar infested. Even in Visnitz Monsey shulls that the Rebbe is a little satmar oriented you will not see a Veyoel Moshe.

Anonymous said...

My 2 cents (which IMHO r totally worthless)
I read vahoel moishe, al hagelua..., maamor sholosh shvuos.
RYT zt"l was entitled to his opinions and shitas about zionism. He fails in his seforim when he tries to prove his shita al pi halacha. He's saying if u don't hold with me, you're going against S"A ch"v. He fails to prove it, and he would have just stayed with his philosophical, historical and logical reasons against zionism he might have accomplished something.
One example. He builds an entire shita on sholosh shvuos. The avnei nezer writes that sholosh shvuos is aggadata and not halacha. It's not mentioned in Rambam (plz correct me if I'm wrong) and on this he claims he is right al pi Torah. Then u have his chassidim on this blog who made it into the 11th commandment writing shtusim to prove him right. If they really cared for his kovod, they should be goinez his kanoyis seforim and stick to divrei yoel on shas, Torah that can be appreciated by anyone and show some true geoinos.

to donor Baliban said...

to Issac Baliban
Is this the only Violated Principal that will prompt you to withhold your hefty donation ?,
kindly share us the list if any

Cheshky said...

Satmar have their nonsense and Lubavitch their nonsense.
Unfortunately the Lubavitcher nonsense is quite a bit more meshigeh.
Long live the Rebbe, the rebbe is moshiach, the rebbe is nosi hador.
Plain meshigeh

Anonymous said...

Chesky
If the Lubavicher Rebbe is Moshiach yes or no does"t have no consequences on nobodies wellbeing, its for them to decide if to say Lechaim to the Red chair on the carpet. But these Group deeds have bitter consequences that puts in Jeopardy Klal Yisroel for some neo religion that was concocted in the last 5 decades. Its a younger religion then the faith system of the Mormons of Utah.

Anonymous said...

criminaly insane ignorant savages,
had these same sewer rats been alive 65 yrs ago i have no doubt they would have put in the same ad in the Shturmer and sworn allegiance to Hitler y'ms,and they would have been the Kapos helping the nazi's destroy their brothers and sisters,
Yemach Smom Vzichtom

chaim.s

Anonymous said...

Igeres Tieman
I see that you are repeating the argument in Veyoel Moshe that the Rambam quotes the 3 oaths in the Yemen letters,I don't believe that the satmar rov wrote that piece in his magnum opus its probably written and inserted by a Talmud Toeh (misleading pupil)as Nossen Yossef or Sender Deutsch the typesetter,
A)how can you use a hashkofa letter of a godal and make it in a halocha that became the new Ani Mamin of Klal Yisroel, wouldn"t the Ramabam put such a major halocha it his sefer haYad?
they quote the Radbaz that the teshuvas of the Rambam are more reliable then the Yad since it was written later,1) the Radbaz meant his teshuvas that were written lehalacha as the Pear Hador, not his Hashkofa letters or the Morah Nevochim I hope that Satmar Rov would not use this krumkiet in a pesak of Heter Aguna.2)it was written before the Yad.
B) the Rambam writes that Shloma Hamelech wrote it Derech Mashal,far from stating it as a halacha,?Rav Shilas writes already in his Letters of Rambam.
C) Igeres Tieman was written before the Yad so the whole radbaz teshuva thing is relevant.
E)in a other letter,Igeres Shmad where he describes the Kedusha of the ones killed on Kidush Hashem, he writes a total different derush on the Midrash of 3 oaths Hishbati Eschem so please don"t falsify his shitta to fit in your new Ani Mamin, it Gilu Panim Betorah...

chesky said...

"Chesky
If the Lubavicher Rebbe is Moshiach yes or no does"t have no consequences on nobodies wellbeing, its for them to decide if to say Lechaim to the Red chair on the carpet. "

Anon1:16
You have to back and read the history books about the danger of promoting especially a dead moshiach.There has been terrible consequences especially spiritually to Jews because of this

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:49

“did Nartunoa come out with ads to thank Bush for being on the side of the right wing in Israel?”

Absolutely, Natruna never made a difference in support for the administration, according to their Israeli policy!

And no their views are not parallel with Chamas they never took a stance in the Israeli politics more then saying that they don’t speak in there name!

Anon 11:04

“the Chebiner Rov and Reb Isser Zalmen were on the opposite side of him, he was a torah midget against this 2 giants”

The Chebiner Rov and Reb Isser Zalmen, abselutly did not appose his general views regarding Zionism and the state, only in some side issues as voting Etc.

Why don’t you look at the site for once and see how much of gedolim that were not in your view “midget” held in regards to the state!

Anon 11:18

“its absurd that you are claiming that someone scribbling on a unimportant website”

You cal this “someone scribbling”? Did you ever read classic anti-Semitic literature? Jews are not respectful, they steal from the government, they fight the government, they exploit the innocent, they cheat, Etc., it’s as if this guy read “Mein Kampf” and translated it to English!

Anon 4:24
Anon 1:53

The argument around the “Vahoel Moishe” dosent start with you, nor will it end here, the BIG example you guys bring about the “Shalosh Shavuot” has been debated before and will continue to be debated for the rest of time until Moshiach comes “bekarov”, don’t try to make it as if rabbi Yoel didn’t know of this BIG argument, it has been addressed before this is not the place for this debate!

THE TRUE PERSPECTIVE said...

This is only the "tip of the iceberg" re the Rebbe's shita - but it should definitely give some perspective:
“”R. Uriel Tzimmer z"l (featured on this blog previously) wore many hats throughout his career, eventually becoming Chabad. A talented writer, he wrote a booklet called "HaTorah V'HaMedina" (approx. 5715?) with the rebbe's directive. It wouldn't fall short of Satmar material..””
YOU CANT PUT INTO A TIP OF ICEBERG SOMETHING THAT WAS DISCLOSED IN TIDBITDS OVER MANY YEARS
BUT SINCE YOU STARTED WITH TIZMMER I WILL TELL YOU...
TIZMMER WAS A WHEELCHAIR BOUND TALENTED WRITER WHO COULD NOT CHOOSE HIS EMPLOYERS TOO MUCH, HE WAS NOT CHABAD BUT HIRED BY RMMS TO EDIT HIS SICHES IT SHOULD BE BEOIFEN HAMISKABEL
RMMS'S CONFIDANTS ADVISED HIM TO HIRE AN OUTSIDER WHO WILL CUT OUT AND PUBLICIZE ONLY WHAT IS "THEN" NOT CONTROVERSIAL
REMEMBER THAT WAS AT TIME THAT MOST PEOPLE IN CH WERE LOYAL TO THE OLD REBTTZIN WHO WANTED RSMG TO BE REBBE.
TIZZMER WAS ORDERED TO BE INDEPENDENT AND NOT TO TAKE DIRECTIVES TILL THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL GROW UP AND SOLIDIFY RMMS'S POWER AND WILL PUBLISH THE "SICHA BILTI MUGA."
TIZZMER DID NOT TAKE ANY DIRECTIVES FROM RMMS ABOUT HIS BOOKLET HATORAH VHAMEDINA
IT WAS FROM HIS INVOLVEMENT ON HIS OTHER JOB AS EDITOR OF "DER YID" HE WAS ENCOURAGED BY RYT TO WRITE THIS BOOKLET AND WAS GIVEN OUT BY HIS WILLIAMSBURG WIFE AND SATMER FRIENDS.
YOU CLAIM THAT RMMS WAS ONCE NON ZIONIST THAT'S FALSE FALSE FALSE
HE AND HIS FIL WERE SOME TIMES TO SOME PEOPLE CLOSET ZIONISTS THEY WERE TALKING TO THOSE WHAT HE WANTED THEM TO HEAR, TILL SHAZAR CAME
“”But when the Rebbe saw how this post-Holocaust generation reacted to it, he said to cease printing it and that it should remain merely in one's heart etc.
SO THE TORAH Is IS ADJUSTED TO PLEASE THE EARS OF ITS LISTENERS, THE SAME WAS SAID BY MOSHE DESAUER: JUDIASIM SHOULD REMAIN IN THE HEART.
BUT THAT IS WHAT USED TO BE TOLD TO THE INSIDERS, WHY RMMS DOES NOT REPEAT THE WORDS OF THE RSBS ABOUT ZIONISM, BUT THE TRUTH IS MONEY TALKS AND FOR MONEY THAT THE ZIONIST FUNDED RMMS INTERESTS HE NOT ONLY HAD TO WIPE IT OUT FROM HIS HEARTH BUT HAD TO FIGHT THE ZIONIST OPPONENTS
YOU! BY POSTING ANONYMOUSLY THIS OUTDATED LUBAVITCH PROPAGANDA YOU GO IN YOUR REBBE'S SHITA BY SAYING ANY THING ONLY, IF IT WANT CAUSE YOU ANY HARM, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU GO INTO 770 AND SAY WE ARE ANTI ZIONIST IN THE HEART YOU WILL GET A BEATING THAT WILL PUT YOU IN PERSPECTIVE
THE ABOVE WILL ALSO EXPLAIN WHY...
“”There's many stories such - The Rebbe screaming (TAPE PLEASE) at Shulzinger Bros. for printing "Yom HaAtzmaut" in the calendar, etc..””
AND THE REASON WHY YOU SAY
“”v'akatzer.”” IS BECAUSE YOU ARE ALSO AN OVED AND YOUR MOIECH IS SHALIT AL HALEV AND YOU WOULD RATHER KEEP THIS DEVORIM SHBELEV AS MILIBA LEPIMA LO GALUA
AND AS I WROTE BEFORE: ‘’ The idea is all the same - pre-Shazar, post-Shazar ‘’RMMS WAS ALWAYS A ZIONIST BUT THE GILUIM CHANGED BECAUSE OF HIS FUND PROVIDERS
‘’ Lubavitch has its shitos,’’ TO BE THE MOST VOCAL GROUP OF THE EIREV RAV SO AS TO APPEAR AS THEY ARE THE IN THE DRIVERS SEAT THEREFORE DEVISED A SCHEME THAT THEY have to be mekarev the Yidden in EY just the same as anywhere else.IN ORDER TO GET MONEY FROM ALL ASSIMILATES OF THE WHOLE WORLD
“” I'll stop here, but there's plenty of resources ,’’U’CHAZUKA AL TAMULA SHEINON CHZROS REIKOM ‘ ‘’ v'lo b'shuftoni askinan..’’’ FARKERT!!!: MUTEV SHEYIYA SHOTA KOL YUMOV ..AN BE FROM’’ Those who intentionally pull the wool over their eyes’’ AND NOT READ LUBAVITCH LIES ‘’(as to Lubavitch's stance)’’’BEAZRAS HASHEM ‘’will just continue to do so.’’

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
where did u pick up this crazy?

Anonymous said...

Anon 2;55
b
Bring me proof that the Chebiner rov, Reb Isser Zalmen and the majority of the post war gedolim had a problem with Medina al pi torah. Get me proof that he wasn't on the same page with the Avnie Nezer regarding the state. Don"t bring me quotes of Gedolim that were against Zionisim of the Herzel bend, even Rav Herzog and all rabonim of the rabinut were for Medina al pi torah, some gedolim had a difference of opinion if you can call it Atchalta DeGeula. They all were ready to live in a Israel protected by the IDF, the same as I live in a town protected by a Mumar and Mechalel Shabos Mike Bloomberg and his NYPD, and your great Rebbe Yoel obm was protected under the the rule of other Mechalelie Shabbos Abe Beame and Eddie Koch, he was even Chonef Lereshoim in his salon with all the pictures.Chanifa Lershoim didn"t start after 1948 in the continent of Asia for Ben Gurion,Shazar,Eshkol,Peres.The gemora in Sotah also meant Koch,Javitz,Beame and Bloomberg too. whats your point exactly ? So I beg you again, please emphasize in your ads that you are speaking in the name of Satmer only.

Anonymous said...

Anon2;55
"The argument around the “Vahoel Moishe” dosent start with you, nor will it end here, the BIG example you guys bring about the “Shalosh Shavuot” has been debated before and will continue to be debated for the rest of time until Moshiach comes “bekarov”, don’t try to make it as if rabbi Yoel didn’t know of this BIG argument, it has been addressed before this is not the place for this debate!"
Is the Veyoel Moshe a subject thats taboo that can only be enforced but not discussed? you people are selling a product that comes with no Content or ingredient label.Its illegal in the US don"t be a Misgareh... In our torah there is only one thing that can not be discussed, Ma Lefonim uMah Leocher, All the 13 principle of the rambam were debated at length, Is the "Shita" (as u people like to call it) beyond the 13 principle?

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:30

“Bring me proof that the Chebiner rov, Reb Isser Zalmen and the majority of the post war gedolim had a problem with Medina al pi torah”

If you insist we can go into Medina al pi torah v. Medina shelo al pi torah, but this post is about the ad not the medina itself, now in your own words they were against Medina shelo al pi torah, so today that Israel is Medina shelo al pi torah, and Natruna puts out a ad against it, why the requirement to emphasize its only Satmar when as it stands today it surly is not only Satmar against it!!

Anon 4:50

“Is the Veyoel Moshe a subject thats taboo” ?

absolutely not, all I said was that this is not the place for it, since this post was – as I said before – about the ad not the Shita itself, if you would like to debate the Shita no problem, let Hershel post something about the Shita, and let the fun begin!!

Anonymous said...

Against Medinah al pe torah has nothing with satmar, acutely the marshab wrote:
לצאת מן הגלות בחזקה ולגאול א"ע בכח עצמם הוא נגד תוקף אמונתם ותקוותם של ישראל
מהרש"ב מליובאוויטש
ובפרט לקבל צורה כזו לצאת מן הגלות בחזקה ולגאול א"ע בכח עצמם, זאת לא יוכל כל המחזיק בתומ"צ לפעול בעצמו בשום אופן, כי זה נגד תוקף אמונתם ותקוותם של ישראל, אשר המה מקוים ומצפים לישועה בביאת משיח צדקינו בב"א, ויגאלו גאולת הגוף וגאולת הנפש ויתעלו בעילוי מעלה העליונה, אשר בתקוה זו דוקא המשורשת בנפשם ימצאו מרגוע לנפשם, ובזה דוקא המה חיים בחיי הגלות המר ומתחזקים בקיום התומ"צ, ולא כהבטחת הערצל שיבטיחום להיות ממשלה בפ"ע ולחיות חיי גשמיים, אף אם נטעה את עצמנו ונחשוב שיש בידו לפעול זאת, ימצאו תענוג נפשם, ובתקוה זו לבד לא היו יכולים להתקיים תחת עול הגלות, כ"א בהתקוה בגאולתם ופדות נפשם אשר יגאלנו השי"ת על ידי משיח צדקינו בב"א. (קונטרס ומעיין מבית ה')

גם היו האנשים האלה שלמים עם ה' ותורתו אין לנו לשמוע להם לדבר הזה, לעשות גאולתנו בכח עצמינו
מהרש"ב מליובאוויטש
בדבר שאלתם אודות הציונים והבאנק שלהם, הנני להשיב להם בקצרה: א) הנה אם גם היו האנשים האלה שלמים עם ה' ותורתו, וגם היה מקום לחשוב שישיגו מטרתם, אין לנו לשמוע להם לדבר הזה, לעשות גאולתנו בכח עצמינו, והלא אין רשאים גם לדחוק את הקץ להרבות בתחנונים ע"ז (רש"י כתובות דקי"א ע"א ד"ה שלא לדחוק את הקץ ועמ"ש במדרש רבה שיר השירים פ"ב על פסוק השבעתי אתכם) וכ"ש בכחות ותחבולות גשמיים, דהיינו לצאת מהגלות בזרוע אין אנו רשאים, ולא בזה תהיה גאולתנו ופדות נפשנו, ובפרט שהוא נגד תקותנו האמתית כי כל צפיתנו ותקותנו הוא שיביא הקב"ה לנו משיח צדקינו בב"א ותהי' גאולתנו ע"י הקב"ה בעצמו, כמ"ש במדרש רבה על פסוק כי עמך מקור חיים, כי גם הגאולה שהיתה ע"י משה ואהרן לא היתה גאולה שלמה וחזרו כו', וכ"ש הגאולה שע"י חנני' מישאל ועזרי' כו' גם שעשו עפ"י נבואת ירמיהו ועפ"י נביאים האחרונים שהיו עמם. ובהגלות הזה עלינו לצפות רק לגאולתנו וישועתנו של הקב"ה בעצמו, שלא ע"י בשר ודם, ותהי' גאולתנו שלמה. (נדפס באור לישרים דף 57)

Anonymous said...

I never was in to the Reshabs shita, I spoke only about Gedolim that saw a different reality after a war of 6 million Jews.Even his son the ben yochid that every word of his father had a different view after the war regarding the state.As you see in his writing is all geula geula,and he was not ready to make peace to have a half baked geula. But a Yishuv with no geula overtones as the Chebiner and all gedolie yisroel looked at it wasn"t in his mind.He never ever had the thought of a churban that the all klal would be slaughtered as sheep.

Anonymous said...

Someone mentioned the Avnei Nezer as saying the oaths are aggadta. Let’s see what he really says:

The Avnei Nezer (Yoreh Deah 454) asks two basic questions on the Three Oaths: 1) An oath only has force when the person himself swears, such as when the Jewish people swore their acceptance of the Torah (Rashi on Devarim 28:69), or at least answers amein, such as the sotah (Bamidbar 5:22) or the oaths at Mt. Gerizim and Mt. Eval (Devarim 27:26). But in this case, if Shlomo Hamelech administered the Three Oaths, he should have gathered the entire Jewish people together to accept them, but we find nothing of the sort. 2) What could the nature of the nations’ oath be if they did not even know about it?

He answers that Hashem administered the oath to the guardian angels of each nation. Similarly, He administered the oaths of the Jewish people to their soul roots above. This fits well with the Zohar (Bereishis 242a), which says in reference to Shir Hashirim 5:8 that the words “daughters of Jerusalem” refer to the souls of the righteous. Here too, Hashem made the souls of the Jewish people swear to keep to the terms of exile. This is similar to the oath administered to the soul before it comes into the world, “Be righteous and do not be wicked” (Niddah 30b).

If every person’s soul swears to be righteous before it is born, what was the purpose of the oath the Jews took when they accepted the Torah? The answer is that an oath accepted by the soul is not legally binding. It merely means that the soul is infused with a desire to be good. But a person can ignore his soul and follow the evil inclination. The Jews had to take an oath in this world; otherwise they would not have been punished for not listening to the soul.

If an oath administered to the soul is not legally binding, asks the Avnei Nezer, how can there be a punishment for violating the terms of exile? The answer is that “I will permit your flesh as the gazelles and deer of the field” is not to be understood as a direct punishment, but as a cutting off of Hashem’s protection that comes as a result of the sin. Sometimes even when a person cannot be culpable for what he did, the sin itself distances him from Hashem. We find this in Tikunei Zohar regarding the concept that the Heavenly Court does not judge a person under twenty years of age (Shabbos 89b). Why, then, do people sometimes die under the age of twenty? Because, says the Zohar, “a wicked person’s own sins trap him” (Mishlei 5:22).

Here too, if the Jews violate the terms of exile and conquer Eretz Yisroel or fight against the nations, Hashem will ask their souls why they did it, and the souls will answer, “We tried our best to push the bodies in the right direction, but they did not listen to us.” Then He will call their bodies in for judgement, but the bodies will reply that they never took any oath; only the souls did. Each has a good excuse, but the connection between body and soul has been ruptured, Hashem’s providence and supervision is removed from the body, and the body is left as ownerless as the wild animals that have no soul. The Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim and the Chinuch in Mitzvah 169 write that Hashem's supervision does not apply to the particulars of each animal but only to the preservation of the species. The same will be the case for a human being who distances himself from his soul.

Of all wild animals, the deer and the hind are singled out because they are used elsewhere as the symbols of detachment from holiness. We have seen that in three places, when the Torah wants to teach us that meat is not holy, it says “like the deer and the hind.” In two out of those three places, it is discussing meat that was once holy but now its holiness has been removed. Here also, the result of violating the oaths of exile is that one is cut off from his source of holiness and removed from Hashem’s supervision, may Hashem spare us.

Ad kan. I don’t think being cut off from Hashem’s supervision is what we want for Klal Yisroel.

Anonymous said...

I love the Satmars with their hangover of the Marshab of Lubavich. Did they ever try to learn his Chasidus that he believed with all his soul that it is Ikrai Emuna and with out it you are a Nebech Apikoras in Achdus Hashem.He also believed that chassidus didn't dissolve, it is Yiddishkiet and noting else is.This is what he taught for the chasidim, The letters of anti zionisim was a technical thing to stem the heat of zionisim that caught the masses. But his life was Toras Habesht that became a laughing stock in the Natronoa camp.The talmidim like reb Shloma Chaim, Reb Nissan, Reb Chaim Shaul, Reb Elya Yachil (each of them would be a tzadik hador in the non chabad world) were never ever involved in the anti zionisim letters. All they knew from the Rebbe was his chassidus.Obviously they had the same view like his son the Ben Yochid, that his fathers Anti Zionist stance is a irrelevant war after the Shoah and after the State became a fact. The holy Belzer Rov that was a model of the Rebbe Reb Mielech in our Genaration, had the same view, eventough his father and himself had a different view before the Shoah, to say on all this Kedoshim that they were bribed by whomever is Kefira and egocentric.

Anonymous said...

There is no question that the Avnei Nezer held the view on Hasgocha Perotis as the Besht that their is no such think as getting off the Hashgocha Perotis of Hashem he differs with all the Rishonim in that aspect,as it was the normative general belief in Klal Yisroel which is the posek achron in sensitive matters as this ( for details on that look in the Letters of the Harav Hakodes MiLubavich Zy"A) but obviously He didn"t mean the siluk in Hashgocha perotis as blunt as you learn in it, it is certain levels of Kedusha that you can get close to the shechina and that is some kind of barrier for a certain level.

Isaac Balbin said...

To whatever your name is who wrote:

"to Issac Baliban
Is this the only Violated Principal that will prompt you to withhold your hefty donation ?,
kindly share us the list if any"

Let's start with Isaac not Issac.
Balbin not Baliban.

Next, let's not put the word "hefty" into my pocket, but thanks for the ברכה nonetheless.

If I told you that just about the only people who come soliciting for donations would seem to be those who supposedly believe that the Medina is holding up the Geula, would you accept that? Funnily enough, almost nobody else seems to come. Just for the record, I also turn away Red Cross, Yechi-niks :-)

In all seriousness, though, I don't ask or let anyone tell me who they are collecting for or why. I really don't want to know. They just have to flash the certificate which shows they are a legitimately registered collector ("Chessed" do that service here in Melbourne) and I give.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:28:00 PM,
Thanks for your in-depth explanation of the avnei nezer. I think it proves the point someone wrote above. There's halacha and there's philosophy. In halacha shalosh shvuos does not apply. In shita, and as u expressed it so eloquently with the deer moshul, it can cause terrible things and being nichras from our only real guardian. the problem with the satmar rov zt"l was his trying to use halacha as the basis for his shita. The LR demanded of his chassidim to do outreach and sometimes quoted mekoiros in gemorrah and halacha, but i don't recall ever hearing that he said that if u don't do it, you're oiver on some lav

Anonymous said...

It is ironic that the early reform Jews as Mendelsohn that tore out the Geula parts of the sidurim,(look in Nogeh Tzedek) also used the 3 oaths as their source,they were also on the forefront to fight the early shivas zion movements, because of the 3 oaths.According to the satmar rov if the reshoim are using a mitzva for their ideology then we have to refrain from it as his issur on the Kotel. I am asking my Natronoa friends that since the 3 oaths were used first by the Reformers maybe we should not use it.

oath said...

wherebdid the satmer rav say you're oiver on some lav?
and you only dont do things when its a lav

schneur said...

ITs very easy to be anti Israel now , after all these guys are sitting in the "fraye" (lashon tarti mashma) America. But let me ask all these Ungarische Yidden a frage . After the war there were over 500,000 Jews who suvived in Budapest and Northern Rumania and Bucharest. If not for the creation of Israel should these Jews have stayed in Rmania and attended the fayerdeike tischen of Ceasescu ?
I read Der Yid and I see that a great deal of the Satmarer people who died in the last 10 years in Monroe or Williamsburg came to the US via ISRAEL . Should all these Jews from Northern Rumania have stayed there or gone to Chile or maybe Brazil ?
And I assure you that if a Russian jew came to israel there is a chance that he will see the light and adopt some Jewish behavior , tell me whats the chance of a Russian jew becoming frum in Boston, Philadelphia (despite good work by Chabad and others) ? And how many of our Persian brethern have assimilated into the materialism of Beverly Hills and Long Island , while in Israel the chance of being frum is greater ( despite the fact that many Persian jews here are frum).
Even all your propoganda about maavir al hadass of Sefardic Jews is dated . Friends there has been a revolution in isral and tens of thousands of Sefardim are Bnai Tore and hundreds of thousands are Shomre Shabbas. More than half of the Seforim our library gets weekly _- new- are from Sefardic mechabrim , What a proof of the promise of Hashem not to abandon his people !!!Compare this to the matzav in Miami, LA or even Brooklyn among the yordim community.
Its a shame that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not around begashmius ,(by the way thats a reason there needs to be a new lead of Lubavitch to proclaim a true Daas Torah on current events!) he routinely put these people and the SHITAH in tis true place (Lo mehem velo mehamonom !!! yes he said it countless times at that memorable farbrengun in response to a similiar ad about Entebee by the Zaddikim of the CRC)israel is a makom miklat for Klal Israel and these characters Natronah, , Metotronah, NK vechuli are all rodfim of Klal Israel. Except for their rav the gedolai Talmide haBesht in our generation were with the Lubavitcher Rebbe on this . The Zaddik hador Belzer Rav told the Skverer rebbe that Israel provides a makom miklat for Jewry.Its a yeshua for Klal israel! The Gerer was against the shitah so was the Kluizenberger, Sadigerer, Kopishnitzer, vishnitzer, Sereter, Novominsker, etc.etc Frankly which rebbeim except for some Neo Chassidic "rebbes" from Hungary supported this shitah.? Did the Pressburger rav support the shitah ? Did rav Aren support the shitah Did Rabbi Mendlowitz agree with the shitah.How about Rav Kaminetsky, or rav Kahaneman ? It was after the tragedy of World war 2 a daas yachid !!I know there were other rabbonim from Hungary who signed off on it , but did they really believe in it ?
Israel is a reality and Orthodox Jews should work to give it a Jewish framework.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Gut Gezugt, at the same token lets ask them how many Russian Jews did Rav Tov save to Orthodox Jewry? at least a Minyan? It always bothered me how a Talmid Chochem like Rav Kriezwirth got suckered in to their hogwash, and was the MC for Rav Tov, is it the recognition that a lonely rav in Europe is aspiring for? he suddenly is in the center of 1000's of Chasidim in Brooklyn.

Anonymous said...

Shneuer,
Read carefully the meshech hachuchma on last weeks pousek Lo meastim v'lo gealtim lchalosem, his point in short is that golous has its own cycle where hashem give yiden a few years of breathing space between one punishment and the other, to persevere and recuperate our Bris with hashem,that does make any safe heaven halachicly legit even its the Tzar or the tziyonem
. and you know also that the zionist had monipulated that jews should not be able to settle agter the war only in hertzel shtadt
and the biggest danger to klal yisroel today is that so much yiden live in EY its the mesikandiga place

schneur said...

Anonymous . Read what you said ver zogt as America iz azey zicher oder die heilige schweitz oder di noch heilige Antwerpen.Ihr hot a shvua fun hashem az do ist die letzte galus ?
Also see what reb Shlomo Kluger wrote lehalacha to the Ruzhiner about creating autonomous Jewish owned place sin galus like KJ and Skver.
Eyb Eretz Yisroel is nit zicher is America zicher nit zicher befrat in heintike zayten.
Harav Herzog publically stated that there is a Mesorah that there will not be a 3rd churban in Eretz israel ober es kumt uys as die chevra fun satamr und kegon willen davke hoben R"L aza zach far nazchonus vegen Haya lo siyye !!Men darf hoben a bissel emuna !!! in Ribono shel Eylem mer vifil in Satmarer rav !

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
"biggest danger to klal yisroel today is that so much yiden live in EY its the mesikandiga place"
by Bais Sheini it was more shaky and dangerous then today.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
You are too naive, you are quoting for a Satmar Chosid, Rav Herzog, you knew better then that.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,

Since when did R. Herzog become a Chasidishe Rebbe? Do you have more emunah in his statement or in chochot hatzavah? Fech

Anonymous said...

Anon
Rav Herzog had a Koach Hatorah he was boki in Kol Atorah, thats enough for a orthodox Jew to believe in,plus Schneur only said that he had a Mesorah, why shouldn't you trust Rav Herzog he has a Chezkas Kashrus at least as poshuter yid.

Anonymous said...

a rav Mitaam is unpushete yid

Anonymous said...

No one is incinuating that R. Herzog made it up. I found it akward that Shneur should quote it from him like it's from Sinai; considering no one else ever heard of such a thing. If he was a Rebbe, that would be understandable...

Anonymous said...

Plus, Shneur went on a rampage how Satmar was a Daas Yachid and in the same bredth quotes R. Herzog like it's the gospel. That is a textbook case of inconsistency and cherypicking what he subjectively believes in.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"a rav Mitaam is unpushete yid"
what made him a rav mitaam more then reb mordchai banet of Nikelsburgh, he was also recognized by the government? Rav Herzog was independent in all his pesokim, more independent then for instance Reb Yisroel Chaim Menashe Friedman of the satmar kehila, many pesokm of his were changed according to the Tietelbaum regime that are the dictators of the moment, and so are many rabonim in that movement that are serving the ideals of the Titelbaum brothers,

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"If he was a Rebbe, that would be understandable..." the concept of Mesorah is not only a chassidic concept the whole torah shbaal peh is mesorah before the Besht.
Nobody would challenge the satmar rov if he has a mesorah on some halacha in Shukchan orech, but if you get up one morning and accuse each and everyone of Klal Yisroel outside of his chasidim "Gechapt in Kefira" then you need some real Halacha sources to back it up.

Anonymous said...

Satmar Rav wasn't a Daas Yachid. The three oaths were decided by Reb Yitzckok elchonon

Anonymous said...

Anon,
Reb Yitzchok Elchonon of Kovne? are you sure?

joe said...

Antisemite or Anti-radicalism?

Did we ever realize with how many Jews Obama surrounded in the white house? Did we ever realize that he's the first president to make a seder in the white house?
So what's the reason Obama is an antisemite? Oh, I know, because he's believing in a 2-state solution...but hey! Isn't it in support of more than half of American Jews as well as more than half of Israeli Jews? I know what the reply for that will be: 'they are self hating Jews'.
In other words the settlers in west bank (and their supporters) who put their lives as well as their wives and kids life in danger are the 'Jewish people' and those who are in opposition to that are 'antisemites or self-hating Jews’...
Someone can argue that it will never be peace with the Palestinians, and it could be they're right, but atleast the people who believe that there can be peace or they try to make peace why should they be called antisemites or self-hating Jews?
Obama unlike Bush, has a different approach in regards to the muslim world, he's trying to reshape the US image in the Muslim world, by trying to resolved core problems which has accumulated during the past 60 years, and he believes that the occupied palestinian territories are one of the biggest blockages to get to a peace dialog, you're aloud to disagree with him and his policies, but only if its because you have a different political point of view, but its shameful when the views are being driven as a result of radicalism and by promoting a new religion that has arisen the last 65 years that the 'State of Israel' has to govern every peace of the land, and everyone who has different believes no matter Jew or gentile, no matter if he believes in a total dismantle of the State of Israel or in a 2-state solution is a 'antisemite or self-hating Jew'.
The Natruna's ad in WashingtonPost says 'self proclaimed Jewish leaders' I would correct it by saying 'self proclaimed jewish religion'. By claiming that entire Jerusalem should be under the Modern State Of Israel for (false) religious reasons is no better than the radical Muslims that have their radical political stands based on their religion.
I believe that Obama acted really nice after the story that happened a few weeks ago when the Israeli leaders made fun of Vice-President Joe Biden, without any diplomacy it was a unacceptable shame of them.
Let's just review a little on how many benefits our society earned the last year from Obama, should it be bigger earned income credit, loan modifications or a 7-8k grant when buying a new house, we don't have to agree with him on every issue, as there is famous proverb "when I married my wife we divided our responsibilities, my wife took the small stuff, like bathing the kids, cooking meals or washing the laundry, and I took the share of big things, like who should be president, should we do the offshore drilling or should we take military action against Iran", the same applies here when you disagree with him on health care reform or financial reform bill I leave it up to you, and I will be busy with the small things we surely benefited as mentioned before.
I read one bloggers comment where he points out that Orthodox Jews are less influenced by the media so that's the reason why they believe in occupation, I would say the reason is because the Orthodox community have their own media (not necessarily TV it could also be news papers) where they propagandade for a united Jerusalem.
Let's start seeking the truth of the torah and let's look back of our pre war gedolim on their stands against a Jewish State before Mashiach is coming, should it be Marshab, Satmar, Belz, Munkatch, R' elchanan waserman, you name it...
The marshab didn't believe that if the State of Israel is a fact we should fight for it at all costs....
We pray and hope to Hashem for the coming of Mashiach where the truth will be undisputeble.

Truly yours,
A loyal Orthodox torah Jewish American

Anonymous said...

Our Loyal Torah brother,
Lets start by the last line first,

"The Marshab didn't believe that if the State of Israel is a fact we should fight for it at all costs...."
A simple question on the Marshab, why did the Maryatz that was living and breathing his father the Marshab all his life change his mind after his arrival in America, regarding all this divisions in Klal Yisroel agudah mizrachi etc... And then he changed his mind after the establishment of the country, since he had to face with the facts on the table. Are you buying the version that all Gedolim were bribed, and just one and only Jew on Bedford ave wasn't bribed. Was his ahavas hashem not as strong as the Tzadik of 500 Bedford ? Or for the same argument the Belzer Rov saw a different world after the war and after the establishment of the country, was he also bribed by the Zionist? the Rebbe that needed a little apple juice for his daily meal, with no institution, didn't take no non Hiemishe money to built his yeshiva was also bribed? I will go even further and spill your satmar mind, in the world of Satmar the excuse was that the Belzer rov was like a reb Yecheskel Mertz type, that didn"t have the broadness to write the sefer Veyoel Moshe that is midrashic from start to end. His weekly torah was also based on Midrashim and in matter of fact it was very professional.The Satmar Rov realized that girls school are needed, eventough the concept is total foreign to Yiddiskiet, according to the rambam( not Igeres Rambam ) a woman can"t go out of the house, and the whole learning systems that you learn Parshas Hashevoa from copies and not from the Chumash inside is against halacha, But he realized that the situation changed.The same way other gedolim realized on other Klal Yisroel Inyonim that it has to change.The Old Belzer Rov Reb Yisocher Dov was fighting the organized Cheder system that we have today he wrote letters fought the Ruzhiner Rebbes, went to the Kever of his Father and Grandfather and cried for the Bitul Gezare.Imagine if his son Reb Aron was stubborn in Isreal to keep on the fight that whoever changes to the cheder system is a apikores? He would be suicidal for Klal Yisroel , the same is happening with you idiots.

Anonymous said...

A Loyal Orthodox Jew

"Oh, I know, because he's believing in a 2-state solution..."
Is your organization ready to make peace with the Modern State of Israel if the 2 state solution will become a fact? or you are on the Hamas side? can you please come out of the Hamas closet and put your views official in the NYT that we are working hand in hand with Hamas to seek all options how to destroy the state of Israel.

Anonymous said...

A Loyal Orthodox Jew

"obama unlike Bush, has a different approach in regards to the muslim world, he's trying to reshape the US image in the Muslim world,"
so far the foreign policy of your great president has backfired in Iran and universally, and in a short time we had 3 major terror plots about to happen. I believe Natrunoa has a minyan saying tehilim for their man in Washington.

Anonymous said...

A Loyal Orthodox Jew
"let's look back of our pre war gedolim on their stands"
are you looking in Teshuvas Noda Beyuda for guidance on the shailo of electric? are you searching in Teshuvas Levusei Mordechai on taking off a respirator from a comatose person? obviously not, since the reality changed, the same happened with Eretz Yisroel it went thru a radical transformation it was recognized by the UN as independent Jewish country, you can only work to preserve it and to change for the better. Bezer Hashem we have a generation in Israel of tens of thousands families that are sacrificing their life for torah and kedusha.

joe said...

You all are missing my point, (at least you ignore it), I'm not genna argue if you're aloud to have a medina or not, the point is,
it has been 65 years since a new religion has arrived, where you have to be moser nefesh for each and every peace of land, and for that reason you are ready to put in dangar all of klal yisroel, this mesiras nefesh we don't find in rambam, not in baal hatanya, and thats called "radicalism", and Obama is againts that.
Thats all my point,
You can still change subject but the truth will never be vanished as it says in rambam, 'zos hatorah lo tehe mechulefes'

Anonymous said...

Joe,
I hope that you heard of the shita of the Ramban that Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is a Esse Deoraiso even in our day and age, I will not argue the argument for the other gedolim that hold that even according to the Rambam its a Deoraisa, then why exactly do you have a problem with yidden that are ready to be Moisser Nefesh for a Mitzvas Esse? why is it so alien for you? is this really a new religion? according to the Rambam you are allowed to go the extra mile in Kidush hashem even for a mitzva that are not part of the 3 Yeherags. Is it worse then being moser nefesh for the Dikna Kadisha (with the towel) in the Munkaa Tabor? Plus, as of today it is the biggest yishuv of torah and kedusha of Charidie Jews (Boruch hashem the baal Veyoel Moshe unofficial campaign for Yerida didn"t get to much traction)and we have to be mossar nefesh to keep it safe and its expansion militarily and financially since it is akiras hatorah, the Mivtzar haKolelim of Monroe will rachmono litzlan not replace it. fighting for girush of klal yisroel is not invented by Rav Kook, Reb Itche Mier Levin or Begin. the fact is that Hashem Yisborech watched on that little spot (I don't want to call it Eretz Yisroel chas vesholem, since some religious fool will get hyped up with some kedusha overtones)in a miraculous fashion(I think we still can use Miracle then, because it was still before the Zionist occupation and the Nissim didn't move over to the Sitra achra)and 100 of thousands of yiden had a place where to put their heads ( as the Tzadik Hador of Belz described it)

Anonymous said...

To our loyal Orthodox torah Jewish American
"Someone can argue that it will never be peace with the Palestinians, and it could be they're right, but atleast the people who believe that there can be peace or they try to make peace why should they be called antisemites or self-hating Jews?"
Because the experience have shown that Oslo and Gush Katif has only caused more havoc and bloodshed, and brought the enemy closer to your backyard.And Abu Mazzan (that is also a Rotzeach ) does not speak for hamas,and hamas as you know didn"t budge on their policy to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth.
It's very simple that whoever helps them Jew or Gentile Charidie or Chiloni Shtrimel or Clean shaven is not only a self hating Jew he is a Rodef times 7 million

avoidable said...

to Anon who wrote to joe:
Yishev erets yisroel does not mean in a government frame work,
netrina also wants to mekeiam yishuv erets yisroel peacefully under the governance of the gentiles, if this is an option your so called mesires nefesh is avoidable and not permitted

Anonymous said...

Avoidable,
you are correct, but who in the right mind is ready to take klal yisroel in the hands of professional rotzchim that blood of their own sister and brothers is cheaper then a 24 oz shoprite spring water. I like the way some shnooks are sitting like the Urim Vetumim and making life and death decision on the backs of Klal Yisroel.T

Anonymous said...

Avoidable,
I realized lately that all concentrated Jewish Yishuvim is creating a lot of Hisgarus Beumos, starting by Monroe where I saw all the towns surrounding are very mad on the Jewish growth and expansion, they blocked the new water sources, and you made Gentiles that were always Jew friendly in to outright antisemites, don"t you think that its about time to hand over the whole municipality of KJ to the Gentiles, that should dictate you the zoning laws as in Ramat Shloma, stop the poultry plant since its using too much Water and sewer from the gentiles, hand over the real estate taxes for the gentiles that they should built huge Public schools with expansive gymnasiums, and you should get some crumbs when the gentiles will decoide you are worth it. Veoker Shochachti. that if the gentiles will decide that you didn"t use enough deodorant and you ruin the air quality in Walmart, you should be forced on buses and U haul trucks back to Brooklyn, the same with New Square and Monsey. Are these issues also upholding Moshiach?

Anonymous said...

Joe
is the following Shulchan Orech relevant?

גוים שצרו על עיירות ישראל אם באו על עסקי ממון אין מחללין עליהן את השבת ואין עושין עמהן מלחמה, ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפי' לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש יוצאין עליהן בכלי זיין ומחללין עליהן את השבת, ובכל מקום אם באו על עסקי נפשות או שערכו מלחמה או שצרו סתם יוצאין עליהן בכלי זיין ומחללין עליהן את השבת, ומצוה על כל ישראל שיכולין לבוא לצאת ולעזור לאחיהם שבמצור ולהצילם מיד הגוים בשבת, ואסור להן להתמהמה למוצאי שבת, וכשיצילו את אחיהן מותר להן לחזור בכלי
or you only believe in halochas that we get from Igeres Taimon,

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Weissmandel had a plan before 1948 to have an international government in the holy land, so no one can claim that giving up the state is suicide!

Anonymous said...

Thats a new one for me, can you please give me the details, but there is a sefer Machzir Atora Leyoshne from the big Kanoi reb Akiva Yossef Schlesinger with a grandiose plan for Medina Al Pi Torah

Anonymous said...

Dear Joe/ Avoidable/ Loyal Orth. Jew
It is a undisputed fact that the US Jewry with its 6-7 million are almost extinct, all is lost to the altar of assimilation, Bezer Hashem Yisborech we have a country someplace in Asia a nation with 7 million Jews going strong. Even you will eliminate the thousands of Russian Jews that are not 100% kosher but we are still left with 6 and a half million Jews that are saved to our nation. I know the famous reb Sadia Goan that our nation is only a nation with the Torah, but the same torah has said that they all have a din of Tinuk Sheniskba and we are fully resposible for their return under the wings of the Shechina. The pesak of Tinuk Shenishba is not a pesak of a chassidic rebbe that you people love to hate, it is a pesak from the Lithanian Chazon Ish ( please don't come with quotes from Karelitz,Wosner 7 vol Maseh Ish etc.. I believe them as much I Belive in Gelbmans 9 Volumes))in his sefer on hilchos Shechita. Its my belief that it forces us to keep that country just for the sake to keep Klal Yisroel from Shmad.

Anonymous said...

to the TRUE PERSPECTIVE
I would like to judge what you write in a more fair way and these CAPITAL LETTERING seem to make a major impresion that you know what you are talkin about. It's not fair to use tactics that are so convincing. SO PLEASE REWRITE IT and ask a GROWN TO HELP YOU and maybe then i'll foreget about hashem for a sec and read your LASHON HORAH.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:06 I’ll get you the details,

and just so you know Satmar Rav always spoke in the context of the U.N. Etc. taking over

Anonymous said...

I heard it but it can"t be since he wasn't a lunatic

Anonymous said...

"לשמחת לבב זכיתי לראות את הנוער אשר לבבו ער לתורה ולמצוותיה, לקיימה לעובדה ולשומרה בחדוות עוז. אשרי עין ראתה אלה בימים האלה, המוסיפים תקוה לישועות הניבאות לשיבת בנים לגבולם ומלאה הארץ דעת ה'. ובגילי שמחה הנני חותם בברכה שיצליחו בכל פנותיהם ויזכו לראות בנחמת ציון, כנפשם הטובה ונפש החותם ברכה, אי"ש. יום ב' ב' תמוז ת"ש"[2].
it seems that the Chazon Ish wrote this words in a sefer hazikoran in a mizrachi kibbutz before the Veyoel Moshe was printed, BTW, these words smell of Rav Kook
Language

Anonymous said...

Joe
I saw in this weeks English Hamodia that the Novominsker Rebbe spoke out against your great President Obama the biggest Ohev Yisroel since king Koresh, its important that some Natronoa representatives that are well enhanced in all the Igeres Taimons, and the Mideast politics to influence the Rebbe to stop his hisgarous beimus. If all the above will not work you should threaten him that you will label him as a "Self Proclaim Jewish Leader" and then to a new Rav Kook

Anonymous said...

Well, this is quite interesting indeed. Would love to read a little more of this. Good post. Thanks for the heads-up.