Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Lonely men in Jaffa (Part 1)



The cat's out of the bag. The horse is out of the barn. The ketchup's outta the bottle. The secret is out. Nobody REALLY cares. Which means they never REALLY did. They did it back in the 50s and 60s and 70s for all kinds of reasons, and even then it was half hearted, since it was not in their neighborhood. They were afraid not to do, they were pressured into it, or maybe there's was some shock value way back then. But since then they were either bought out or were sold on the ideology. All that's left is a handful of the unemployed and the elderly. Every else cannot be bothered. So what if human remains are being unceremoniously removed and hauled away for research purposes? People are tired of the fighting and don't wanna be perceived as radicals from Iran. They want their Hiloni brethren to like them, so they won't demonstrate and won't burn garbage bins and block traffic. The "zebras" don't really care who they offend, although in person they're the absolute nicest and kindest people, which is weird. You're all scratching your heads trying to figure out where I'm coming from, what I'm talking about and if I'm at all serious or not. So please, let me explain.



Here's the story in a nutshell. In Ashkelon and in Yaffo human remains were found when they were doing renovations/expansions/building. In Ashkelon they were found when they were expanding a local hospital. MK Litzman - who's also deputy Minister of Health - tried to talk them, but they wouldn't listen. They decided that they'd remove the remains and build anyway. The Asra Kasdisha people - and the Eda HaCharedis people in general - have a general issue with removing human remains. The issue always used to be that they're removing remains of Kedoshim, Tanaim and Amoraim, no matter if that was the case or not. Asra Kadisha always assumed they were Jewish remains, and the Archeologists always said they were Byzantines or early Christians. After all, there were plenty of Gentiles living in Israel over the years, and many of the burial grounds were of goyim. Then, when they realized that often times they were Gentile remains, they changed their approach, and told the masses that the problem was that if the Israeli Gov't allows the excavations of remains in Israel, then when they try and stop Governments in Chutz LeAretz to stop excavating cemeteries in Europe and elsewhere they'll point to Israel and use that as an excuse. Take it or leave it. The end result is that their excavating remains, whether we like it or not, and only a handful of people seem to care, or at least seem to want to go out there and fight the cops or get hauled off to jail.



Litzman tried his best using diplomatic channels. Some people in Ashkelon - which has a large Charedi population - threatened and promised not to use Barzilai Hospital ever again, since the new ER is built on top of those kevarim. Those of you old enough will remember that the same thing happened in the 80s with Bank Leumi, that most frumme boycotted BL, since they were the ones who were responsible (I'm not sure how) for the excavations in T'verya. But for the most part these handful of "kanoyim" are the only ones that either seem to care or at least wanna show the world that they do. Why is that, is the question. I can understand that burning garbage bins and blocking traffic is horrible and counterproductive, but why not go out there and do some good ol' fashioned passive resistance? כאמור לעיל, and based on the general consensus both on the street and in the Charedi Israeli press, the frumme in Israel are for the most part tired of looking bad in the eyes of the press and the general Israeli populace. Many of them have daily contact with the irreligious - whether at work or otherwise - (yes, some Israelis do work...) The Eda HaCharedis likes to go both ways; They officially, unofficially don't officially endorse the violence, but they do. But somehow they get away with the incitement, which is interesting. I guess that's Israeli society for you.

Continued tomorrow, IY"H. (We'll discuss Lubavitch then too...)

50 comments:

The Bray of Fundie said...

has any gentile government ACTUALLY razed old Jewish cemeteries citing a tit for tat with Israel argument?

Jus' wonderin'.

Anonymous said...

Bray

their argument is not tit for tat, it is only that it makes it harder for them to argue with a foreign govt.to stop excavating a cemetery, if the Israelis do it too.

The Bray of Fundie said...

But are the foreign gov officials even AWARE of what's doing in Teveria or Ashqelon? Or is it just a kh'shash that they might become aware at some point in the future.

I'd wager that outside of pashkivils in Jerusalem and sites such as these this whole issue is hardly banner headline news.

Richard said...

Where I live it often happens that road builders find bones during the digging and building process. The bones are examined, moved (most often not), and the building of the road continues. Most often the bones are burried beneath the new road. So why should the non-Jews care about what is going on in Israel?

Anonymous said...

Maybe the poor turnout has something to do with the fact that everyone realizes the graves aren't Jewish? Or is it beyond credibility that kanoim would ever let facts enter into their decisions?

Beit vegan said...

tzig...this is your opinion...r alyashuv,r n karalitz ,and of course the eda think different...harry and dov dont believe in rabbis...but you??? hazal say all punishment comes from disturbing the dead (yevamos 63 vaode..)

Anonymous said...

Biet Vegan
Did Rav Elyashev send the yeshiva world to the protest?

Mottel said...

They're non-Jewish graves. Why waste energy on protesting over phantasies?

Fred said...

Typical, typical. Not only do you claim that the current protesters are full of it, but you go on to say that no one really cared way back. You are limited by the Rebbe's limitations. Since the Rebbe did absolutely nothing then to stop the grave digging you can't be masig that people actually cared about it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the only thing typical here, Freddy boy, is your reaction.

Fred said...

And you also ridicule the Yehorog V'al Yavor component of inscripting Jewish daughters into the military. The same pattern. The Rebbe wasn't behind it, so you can't be masig that it was taken seriously. The same goes with many other issues.

BTW, I understand, looking at many Lubavitcher girls, why it is hard for you to comprehend that service in the army would be a step down. I respect that.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Freddy is having shemiras eynayim "issues," it seems

Fred said...

Mr. Tzig. Name one issue, which the Rebbe didn't feel deserved any attention, but the rest (or most) of Orthodoxy faught tooth and nail to stop, AND, you think that their efforts where genuine? You can't name one.

You know why? Because in your mind, if the Rebbe didn't respect it then it must be bogus, no ifs ands and buts. Therefore, those fighting it HAD to be full of it, because it's almost impossible to be serious about bogus.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

fred

you seem to not understand two things:

1) The Rebbe fought more than anybody else

2) The fact that the frumme in Israel stopped caring shows me they probably never cared. Or have reasons to stop, if you know what I mean. What I'm saying here is that the only ones that do care are a few TA Chassidim and some Satmare Nochshleppers.

Fed said...

Of course, the Rebbe fought more than anyone else. He was trully lochem milchomos Hashem and the rest of the thing the Rambam mentioned, way more than anybody else.

Do you respect, speaking of shmiras eynayim, the Rebbes that didn't look at women?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the fact remains that today everybody realizes that fighting in the streets does zero. they all work out the issues diplomatically.

The Rebbe didn't look at women, he saw women that came to him. Try and figure out the difference, despite his hangups.

I respect anybody who has Kedushas Eynayim. yes. Not accepting women is not all that it takes. VeDal.

Fred said...

"The fact that the frumme in Israel stopped caring shows me they probably never cared."

Maybe, maybe not. It's a different generation. Those people, mostly, are in yenneh velt.

That's not the point. Twenty years ago, or way before the current events, you also thought they were full of it.

Please tell us, what where the Rebbe's great fights? Granted, he spread Chabad to the unaffiliated, but what fights did he fight?

Fred said...

Yes, of course, the Rebbes actions where pure and if he looked at women, then it wasn't a problem. I understand that and I am not insinuating that it was. (In Berlin, he didn't have to look at women, since they weren't women that "came to him").

So tell me, which Rebbe do you respect for not looking at women?

Obviously, you can't bring yourself to say that the Rebbes who didn't look at women, did at out a sense of kedushah.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

(In Berlin, he didn't have to look at women, since they weren't women that "came to him").

is that some of underhanded - or direct - jab at the Rebbe?


Obviously, you can't bring yourself to say that the Rebbes who didn't look at women, did at out a sense of kedushah.

not all of them, and you know it.

Fred said...

Name one who you respect?

No, it wasn't a "jab" at the Rebbe. He didn't have the same tayvas as regular people.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

current Rebbe or from the previous generations?

Mottel said...

Fred: Try spelling things properly and writing coherently and then maybe we'll tak you seriously.

Fred said...

Those that were alive after the war.

Fred said...

"The Rebbe fought more than anybody else"

Like what?

"the fact remains that today everybody realizes that fighting in the streets does zero. they all work out the issues diplomatically."

What does that have to do with your lack of appreciation of those in the past generation?

Fred said...

"is that some of underhanded - or direct - jab at the Rebbe?"

It doesn't make a difference. Even if it's true, it doesn't detract from what the Rebbe was.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

after the war?

The Belzer Rov

The Sadigerrer

Reb Chaim Meir'l

the Beis Yisroel

and on and on

Fred said...

The Beis Yisroel? OK, you convinced me. Maybe you can write something positive about them so we wouldn't have to have such conversations?

Although, there are still many issues that my point still stands. You can't bring yourself to respect their fights. Every group suffers from this to a certain degree. You guys have it much worse. Especially with regards to the fights in the Holy land that the Rebbe had no involvement with (and many others).

Mottel, name me one thing that the Rebbe felt was superfalous but you respect others that hold on to it dearly?

Fred said...

"Mr. Tzig. Name one issue, which the Rebbe didn't feel deserved any attention, but the rest (or most) of Orthodoxy faught tooth and nail to stop, AND, you think that their efforts where genuine? You can't name one."

The silence is deafening.

shlomo said...

"1) The Rebbe fought more than anybody else

2) The fact that the frumme in Israel stopped caring shows me they probably never cared. Or have reasons to stop, if you know what I mean. What I'm saying here is that the only ones that do care are a few TA Chassidim and some Satmare Nochshleppers."

I"m sorry to "inconveniently" remind you how Lubavitch &Co made a big deal about "Mihu Yehudi", drove everyone crazy,AND then............
.
.
.
Gornit!!!!.So I guess Mihu Yehudi went from being the most burning issue to..............zippo????I guess Lubavitch never really cared,eh??
( Lubavitch&Co were On to the the next "mivtza" of corronating the self appointed Messiah...)
But, I won't rain on your (lag ba'omer)parade (because Hendel and the Meshichisten did it already)

Isaac Balbin said...

What’s the point of the protests? The digging is happening al pi daas torah. Do they protest in City X if they think the eruv in City X is posul and City X has it’s own daas torah that their Eruv is fine?

If this was an issue with no daas torah, that’s one thing, however, the reality is that there is a cogent daas torah that says the digging is absolutely muttar.

What next, protests against those who drink Chalav HaCompanies because they follow Reb Moshe’s psak? Sheesh.

Anyway, the Gedolim in Bnei Brak now say not to protest anyway.

Anonymous said...

A very nice and peaceful demonstration in the Government compound would be mechubadik and make a statement. But- there would be no "action". These hafgonas where one or two are arrested cause a chain reaction; now there is a burning need (sorry for the pun)to torch some more garbage bins in order to protest the arrests, vechozer cholila.

If you would live in EY you wouldn't write what you did. You would feel sick- from the smoke- and tired- from not having your regular transportation options. And last but not least- from the chilul Hashem.
Years ago I spent some raava d'raavins in Toras Emes, near the hub of the Shabbos demonstrations. This goes back some 40 years. The first Egged bus to leave the bus station to Geula and MS supposedly left a minute or two before ois Shabbos. In protest, (seen with my very own eyes) a kanoee came out onto his balcony with a building block in his hands. He then threw it down two flights where it crashed on the top of the bus with great force, and shattered a window. Who was on the bus? Unzere yidden who don't keep Rabbeinu Tam, and had gotten on at previous stops!!!! You can't mean that you are in favor of this??? Certainly not as a fellow Lubav when we were inculcated with the "yitamu chatoim v'lo chotiim".
Come visit, see who the partiers are, listen to the other side, know where there are plenty of kvorim but building projects continued nevertheless, and then comment.

Mottel said...

-Fred: I'd love to - but frankly I have no clue what the heck "superfalous" means . . .

J. said...

Maybe the reason that they are not protesting is that a) They are not Yiddishe Kevorim b) It's muttar to moce graves for tzarchei rabbim, which this certainly is - especially as the alternative would cost much more, and take longer. Why should we priviledge dead people over live ones?
Read the following:
http://www.zomet.org.il/?CategoryID=263&ArticleID=597
"קבר המזיק את הרבים מותר לפנותו". לשון הרמב"ם "מפנין אותו" - משמעה אפי' חיוב והמלצה.
ג. בשו"ע פירש: "כגון שהוא סמוך לדרך". לדעת רעק"א ונתיבות המשפט מותר לפנות אפי' "לצורך הרבים". יש מי שהתיר גם להרחבת בית כנסת שהוא מבנה ציבורי.
ד. הר"ש ישראלי צידד להתיר גם "לנוי ולתפארת" (פארקים?) כ"אילן המזיק".
It's easy for people with no shaychus to the money being spent to criticise, but the money spent unnecessarily here to uproot a hospital could be used for hospital beds to save lives-it seems that some of those demonstrating seem to care more about dead goyim than live yidden.

Anonymous said...

Fred,
"Since the Rebbe did absolutely nothing then to stop the grave digging you can't be masig that people actually cared about it."
their is no question that the Rebbe didn't put the issue of Bones and graves on his top priority list,eventough he spoke against it by farbrengens which are printed, But you are correct that it was not on the front burner, as it wasn't on the list for non of the gedolie yisroel that rebuild torah and yiddishkiet in the holy land. from the Chazon Ish, Chebiner rov till Reb Ovadia Yossef. Fact has shown that the Rov Minyan Ubinyan of Klal Yisroel was right then and are right today that it does not produce anything . So what exactly should the rebbe have done. He fought Miu Yehudi fight for the future of nishmas yisroel with all his might untill he saw that its lost, so he went back to his offical job of Hafotzas hayadus vechasidus

Anonymous said...

Shloma
"I"m sorry to "inconveniently" remind you how Lubavitch &Co made a big deal about "Mihu Yehudi", drove everyone crazy,AND then.........."
the Rebbes business was not to live a life of Machoas,don't you get it, so did Reb Moshe and so did the old Skverer and every Godal in the USA that were ready to be maligned by your well greased terror brigades. The old Skverer was suckered in to one protest of the Satmars and that was enough for him.He immediately Chapped the underlining message, and you couldn't get him their even by gunpoint thru the Shoproner and the Krasner and the Voidislover and and ....

Anonymous said...

Fed
"looking at many Lubavitcher girls" I hope you do teshuva on Shovaivim on your Shemiras Einiem

Anonymous said...

J.
you are 100%correct,
When this same group needed to develop a little development in Yerushaleiem dedicating the name of the author of the anti Zionist manifest Vayoel Moshe, they found on the property bones of old graves. Every heter in the book was found to continue construction. Since mucho mullah was invested by Kestenbaum Tietelbaun Rosenberg (they were still friendly). Just recently the Toldoth Aron Chassidim and the Zali Faction of Satmar produced a heter from some unknown Dayan to permit the Toldodh Aron Rebbe to celebrate his annual bonfire on the hills of Miron, despite the finding of Bones and graves.The eda Hacharadis that is Ill-famed for its bravo to fight the Malchus Horishou of the Zionist was numb on this all matter since they can not go against a Kehila that is bound to their authority. But when a ER hopital that is Pikuach Nefesh is being built in Ashkelon then every 14 year old shnook becomes a martyr to get the Amrom Blau award, What a farce.

Anonymous said...

Is the עדה החרדית in Israel Completely Insane?
Either way they come out looking like a bunch of fools.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176060

Beit vegan said...

j...the din of a kever yahid is not the same as a beit keverot.....2. Yafa is jewish cematery from before 170 years ago...

Free Lakewood said...

we have shoididim in lakewood too

Anonymous said...

their is no question that the "Rebbe didn't put the issue of Bones and graves on his top priority list,eventough he spoke against it by farbrengens which are printed, But you are correct that it was not on the front burner, as it wasn't on the list for non of the gedolie yisroel that rebuild torah and yiddishkiet in the holy land. from the Chazon Ish, Chebiner rov till Reb Ovadia Yossef."

No. The Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rov made it a "top priority". The Rebbe didn't help out, because it wasn't that important to him, right? Talk (which I doubt he did) is cheap.

Which issue did the Rebbe make a "top priority" in which he wasn't the central figure that ran the show?

Anonymous said...

you said "tomorrow" three days ago.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
do u have evidence on the chazon ish being involved in chitutie shichva issues?

faish said...

IF....
The Sakmoyrem from Monroe/Williamsburg headed by the Banshak with the gebleemteh from Monroe go ahead with the "protest" against Israel today, it's high time to start an official boycott against these Maygar Erev Rav's and their so called hechsher and shechitteh.A price will have to be paid by these Maygars for supporting our enemies.
Daloy Sakmer,Daloy Lubavitcher meshiguem

faish said...

Any updates on the "protest" of the Gebleemteh in Manhattan???

The Bray of Fundie said...

gebleem...what?

lets focus on ourselves first said...

I can't believe this article. CH is the greatest opportunity for Shlichus today with its high concentration of non observant Jews and the few remaining Lubavitchers. Obviously any family whose women do not dress tzniusdik or who walks out of the house w/o a shaitel is not a Lubavitcher. Any man who touches his beard or doesn't dress in the style of Chassidim i.e. black hat and jacket is not a Lubavitcher. We can compare this to other groups who impostor the Jewish religion. The twain don't mix and you have to make choices.

Anonymous said...

"Gebleemteh"=A Chasidic long coat decorated with flowers, favoured by the followers of the now bankrupt "Derech Habesht" which has turned into a mockery of itself, with the "kings" i.e rebbes and "princes" i.e Banshakim dressing up in silk and being wined and dined by their equally foolish cult followers

J. said...

To Beit Vegan - I think you are wrong. To quote the article I cited:
כשיש היתר לפינוי הוא תקף גם לבית קברות ולא רק לקברים בודדים.

Beit vegan said...

There is certanly a difference between - grave and schunas keverim...zomet is zionist rabbis and they are told....to remove the graves at gush katif rabbis metzger and omer poskined that G.K. Is hutz learetz!!!!!!!!!!