Sunday, May 2, 2010

Musa Hirsch, 79 or 86



When we were growing up Moshe Hirsch was Public Enemy Number One. Yes, there were zealots who hated the State, or at least said that they did, but nobody was like Hirsch and his few cohorts. Yisroel Dovid Weiss was still eating Haagen Dazs ice cream and never dreamed that he would one day meet Arafat and Ahmadenijad. Moshe Ber Beck was selling Tikunei Zohar and Strasheler seforim - or at least it was another guy that was chucked from Toldos Aron who looked and dressed like him. And the internet was not yet born - or was in its infancy and was limited to the Military, so we hardly knew about every 2-bit guy who decided he would save the Jews from evil Zionists. Hirsch was the man, the one who did what he wanted and listened to nobody, and he was hated by almost every Jew in the Holy Land, and by extension, the rest of the world. They say he was heavily influenced by Reb Elchonon HY"D's writings. I remember his "talmid" Chaim Tzvi Freiman (another American kid who "found" Neturei Karta in Israel) would visit a neighbor of ours and had Palestinian flags in his shopping bag for all to see. Even Arafat probably didn't have one in his office at that time. OK, maybe HE did.

Hirsch was an American kid, yeah, he was the pride of Lakewood at one time, they say. RAK said he would be one of the greats. (where have we heard that before?) Not surprised? neither are we. It seems Americans moving to Israel is a lethal combination. Must be that American swagger, that when they meet "real" Jews they lose their senses completely. He was married to Reb Aron Katzenelenbogen of NK's daughter. You can't tell me that he really thought that he was saving World Jewry, or even Meah Shearim, or even himself and his family from the Arabs, right? I mean, he was praying that the State collapse - with no Jewish bloodshed, he claimed - and I would think that Arafat would then become King of Palestine, right? and Yasser said he would throw all the Jews into the sea, right? so why would the Hirsch's be spared? So what was he thinking? When did this Hachno'oh LiFnei HoUmos become such a great Mitzvah? But he never backed down, and he taught his kids well, it seems. They all follow in his path, and would accompany him on his trips to Gaza and Ramallah. Weiss stole his thunder by traveling the world to spread his "message," while Hirsch and Co. stayed in the Holy Land and recently only traveled to nearby "Filistin" to reinforce the yoke of Galus on himself. (I'm not sure if he ever traveled to Tunis to see Yasser or not.)

It was interesting to watch the reports of his death today and to see the responses of some people, especially frum people. Many of our brothers wished him the worst, even today, and had no comforting words to say to his grieving family either. Then there were the jokes about him getting the 72 just like a Shahid would get, a sort of "honorary shahid," if you will, and the questions of how he was "allowed" to be buried on Har HaZeisim when it was officially occupied in 1967. Then there was the talk about him being a great Talmid Chochom who definitely "had his reasons" (huh?) for what he did, and that we weren't allowed to speak ill of him, even if he did have a din rodef. To top it all off there were those that made much out of the fact the died on Lag BaOmer, they made a whole tzaddik out of him... Jews are weird when it comes to things like that; we don't like to hate anybody, no matter what he may have done, and we look for ways not to hate. מי כעמך ישראל. I'm sure by now he's done Tshuveh, but the problem is his children nebach think that his way was the correct way! And his son Yisroel Meir published the "Siddur Vilne" used by so many who don't even know what they're supporting when they buy it!

nu, vos ken men ton...

90 comments:

Anonymous said...

r chiam hersh is a tzadik...see the way he makes brachos , stands 18 ,naki bcol derachav....cousin of hashuva jerusalem famiys (and r s freifeld)...

Joe in Australia said...

Here's what I don't understand: anyone who subscribes to the beliefs of this individual is free to live under Palestinian rule. There are lehavdil a few frei Jews who do this already.(*) So why do people like the niftar choose to cower behind the skirts of the Zionist Entity? Let them proudly go and live in Gaza, or at least in a Palestinian part of the West Bank.

(*) I think the Rebbe didn't say lehavdil by Jews, but in this case I think both parties would appreciate my concern for their kovod.

Isaac Balbin said...

I can't think of anything nice to say about him, so i'll say nothing at all.

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

Doeg and Achitophel were also big talmidei chachamim. What David HaMelech, a"h, said about them applies just as much to this rasha.

Anonymous said...

nu, nu, at least he didn't produce a cult with thousands of lunatics.

Ohev Yisreol said...

Tzig,

Your post is exactly how the world outside Chabad looks at your leader. Its a shame you lack the commonsense and intellectual honesty and acuity to appreciate that point. For all your hate and desparation to put down Lakewood (your stories about Hirsch and RAK are purely apocryphal--like most of your stories) you, and only you, look like the idiot in the end.

Anonymous said...

ah I haven't heard about chaim tzvi freiman in years, when I learned in bd he used to come by by bein hasdorim and get chucked as soon as any hanhola showed up.
surprisingly they never assered going to hear mbb, but I can proudly say I never stepped in there, though I did give him money on occasion when he went collecting. after all, I was tought to give areilim too mipnei darkei shalom....

AMSHINOVER said...

Allah yinachem bsoch shar avla ramalah vjenin

UD said...

If RMH zts"l got such a mouthful just for hugging Arafat, I shudder to think what you'd to to Yaakov Avinu a"h for his treatment of fetter Eisov, or to Yochanan ben Zakkai for his "collaboration with the enemy".

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

UD

I expected that from you, considering that your mesorah starts and ends with you and only you. But with Moshe Hirsh I expected better, he had rebbes.

Tell me: Hirsh is now Yakov Avinu and RYBZ?

schneur said...

Tzig. okay he is gone , a Yid dies without teshuva that is sad.Hopefully in alma dekeshot he will see the plain emes.
Buy who besides the PLO funds these guys ? The hotels , the NY Times ads , the travel on airlines their livng expenses. I am certain the PLo gives them some money, but if you really want a story for your site , expose the sheine Yidden in Monroe and Williamsburg who back these people.(I know they claim they don't like them vechuli)
Several years ago it was exposed that the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congs in London the ultra Charedi shul group that sponsors kedassia , a Beth din led by R. Padwa allocated a substantial sum of money to the NK !! Can you believe this an organization that includes Chabad, Ger, Yeshiva , Aguda Bobov allocating money to the NK ! It was Zalmy Unsdorfer son of the legendary Hatzolla askan Rav Simcha Bumin that exposed this. I never heard any hesver..

Anonymous said...

Ohev Yisroel
your morning burp was good you can go back to nap

russian chusid said...

Shneur,

He did not have anything to do with the regular NK - regular NK HAD NO SHAICHUS WITH ARABS. NK is heavy against the state, bu the are not pro-Arab. Also, if you know, R'Aron Katz. threw Hirsh out of his house.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Intrestingly enough, my uncle was his Chavrousa in Mirrer Yeshiva at the time he became a Chosson. He related to my uncle that he had a clear understanding with his Shver, Rav Ahron Katzenelenbogen that he doesn’t have to get involved in politics at all!!! Famous last words.

UD said...

Are you really that pathetically insecure that you _have_ to start off with a personal attack on me ? Why are you so scared ? And since you brought it up, what is _your_ mesorah ? Mine I'll keep to meself, thank you very much, but since you're so much in the spotlight, to tell this thirsty for knowledge crowd - where does Tzig's mesorah start and where does it end ?

And again you found it necessary to misquote me in your "percha". Did I ever say that RMS _is_ Yanckyvooveany A"H or RYB"Z , or anything close ?

Mottel said...

Subscribing

Anonymous said...

shulem to all

i know some one who also shaked the hand of arafat ym"sh , also went over to him again and again neverthenless gave him also guns who were used on killing yidden and more he is ( i belive ) no shomer shabbos , no tefillin a ..... gomur and hey ... not so long ago he was in poneves yeshiva in bnei brak ant the gave him koved melochim.....

do we think on peres ( president of israel ) the same as of moishe hirsh ?!?

jisroel af al pi shechoto yisroel hu ! & jisroel af al pi she loi choto jisroel hu .........

Yomtov said...

UD,
I don't think you should get into the Tzigs mesorah.He has none.He mentioned once that his father zg"z for whatever reason, already as a young bucher changed from Nisech Ashkenaz to Sefard.Bear in mind the tatteh zg"z grew up in Chicago and went to Telz Cleveland for h.school so there was no SOCIETAL reason to change.So even mesoras Ashkenaz the Tzig doesn't have.Additionally, when he joined the guys in C.H, it was post mesorah time, after the rebbe was nifter .
It's a free world and if the Tzig chooses to join a c..new group it's ok, but the chutzpah to predik to you about having no mesorah due to the Russian backround is amazing.
Btw, where have you disapeared to?You were the only guy who managed to beat sense into this ipcha mistabrehnik

Anonymous said...

He'll get 72 with all the other shahids. Unlike all the other shahids', his bunch will come with a matching set of brothers and fathers angry about that Jew taking their kid.

MOSHE ARON KESTENBAUM said...

I HAVE ONE QUESTION wHY DOESNT THE NETURA KARTE MOVE TO GAZA OR RAMALA? ANYONE KNOW?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
"Moshe Ber Beck was selling Tikunei Zohar and Strasheler seforim - or at least it was another guy that was chucked from Toldos Aron who"
Beck from Monsey is original from Visnitz Bnie Berak, he left by the infamous Mordim episode

Mivakesh HaEmes said...

Anonomous 1223--its because of you that we still dont have the geulah. Stop being such a hater. Leave Chabad and join the Jews.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
When Arafat died the New York Times reported that he funded the Hirsh group. Frieman told me that every bombed bus in Israel(Rachmono Litzon) is eliminating the Charon Af that is constantly on the Am Hayoshev Betzion since we take away milk from little palestinan kids. He added even the bus consists of Reb Arelech or NK little kids the Charon Af gets reduced by each attack
They are a group of Rotzchim,and some idiots believe they are Yakov Avinu

Anonymous said...

Without going into moshe hirsh, all I want to say is that with talking about wisses past you were “over” on “onuas devarim” as it says in the gmarha:

כשם שאונאה במקח וממכר כך אונאה בדברים לא יאמר לו בכמה חפץ זה והוא אינו רוצה ליקח אם היה בעל תשובה לא יאמר לו זכור מעשיך הראשונים אם הוא בן גרים לא יאמר לו זכור מעשה אבותיך שנאמר (שמות כב, כ) וגר לא תונה ולא תלחצנו:

And in so is the halacha in Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 228

So please call him up and ask for his “mechileh” !!

vi nisht vi said...

I don’t understand…
Which of the 613 was RMH Z”L ohver?
He clearly stated many times that he had no intentions of hurting any other Yidden.
He was simply misguided.
He hated the medina and he tried to collaborate with its enemies so that it would collapse.
What did he do that was so bad? He met with a Rasha? So? Do you think he would have met with them for one second if he did not think that he was helping Klal Yisroel? What terrible outcome was there from any of his meetings?
Were his meetings any worse than aveiros or chilul hashems that unfortunately take place daily amongst Yidden?
I am not condoning his actions in any way. I just don’t understand why this man is the target of such horrible k’lalos and terrible wishes.
This man was a chozer for RAK. A Yid who was a massive talmid chacham. He spent his life trying to help other Yidden and was unfortunately misguided. But why is it that people are saying these terrible things. I just don’t get it. Please explain.

schneur said...

russian chusid.
Still who supports these guys ?
NK is not an organization its a state of mind. While you are right that Uri Blau and others are not associated with Hirsch, I guess Hirsch has as much right as anyone to call himself NK. But where does Moshe ber Beck get his tickets ? And the NK of Uri Blau deserves support ? And if it does let all those who beleive so state so clearly and proudly !

Anonymous said...

this halochas are not said on a rodef of 7 million jews,a poresh min hatzibur

Anonymous said...

Vi Nisht
what is the mekor of the Rambam on Poresh Min Hatzibur has no part in olum habo? which issur did he digress?

The Bray of Fundie said...

vi nisht vi

Do you understand "what's so bad" about the kappos and craven Judenrat members during World war II?

To give things a bit of emotional distance; do you understand why early Americans hated Bendict Arnold or why Americans of the fifties executed Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?

You are talking out of 2 sides of your mouth. If he was so exalted a TK how could YOU call him "misguided". Are you a big neough TK to be his bar P'lugta? If you can call him "misguided" others can call him a traitor with blood on his hands.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> I HAVE ONE QUESTION wHY DOESNT THE NETURA KARTE MOVE TO GAZA OR RAMALA? ANYONE KNOW?

Two reasons:
1) They oppose innovation and that means they can't move anywhere new.

2) They hold that they were there first and the Zionists came after so it's the Zionists who have to leave.

Josh said...

At least the niftar had the cojones to think for himself outside of the Daas Torah cult. Here was someone who searched scripture diligently to see what God wanted from him. Albeit that his answer was a fundamentalist answer, and one that we do not agree with. Fine. But at least within the religion someone thought for themselves rather than just eat the crap they are fed by the gedolim. That alone is worth mourning. תהא נשמתו צרורה בצרור החיים

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Garnel

Hirsh came to Israel after the State was founded, AFAIK, he was only born in 1931.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

UD

you deserve every line, after what you said about the Rabbeyim, as well as others, so please, cut the innocent shtick.

Anonymous said...

I heard that in Gaza their is a Chalukas Koran instead of Mishnayos for the holy neshoma

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anonymous

Moshe Ber left Vizhnitz, went to Toldos, and was then chucked from there too.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Anon 3:31

all I said about Weiss was that he ate Haagen Dazs, not that he chas vesholom did Aveiros. A man like him, who has a din rodef according to most opinions, and who embarrasses Jews the world over could have a little "shmutz" about him on a blog.

Anonymous said...

At least he cared about the immense human suffering Zionism released on innocent men, women and children. I am not saying that we need to go in the way of the NK, but they recognized the humanity of the Palestinians more than other Orthodox groups. We can argue that he went too far, but did religious Zionism not go farther in its adoption of a near genocidal program vis a vis the local population?

UD said...

Tzig,

Whatcha talking about ? Did you eat too much of that yellow snow, or did all the bile that you're licking up here on daily basis fill you up after all ? What do "Rabbeyim" have to do with this? You're a delusional lunatic, and I'm saying it as a diagnosis, not an insult. The fact that you're so subdued that you can't even talk about the subject of your own post speaks volumes ...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

UD=UN=Umyvalnikov Nachalnik

I can easily discuss the topic with you, and I really have no problem doing so. I just don't your punkt kapoyer attitude when it comes to anything Jewish, and not kapoyer to Lubavitch, mind you, kapoyer to all other Jews.

PRAY TELL, tell me what you found so right and just in his approach that you compare him to der zeide Yankev and RYBZ?

Anonymous said...

Anon.
"immense human suffering Zionism released on innocent men, women and children. "
who pays for the massive yeshivas and Kolelim in Isreal? since Matan Torah it didn"t exist such a concentration of Torah in the world, who pays for that? look in the Goldene Medina as every day another Menahel Yeshiva is forgetting indicted for trying to survive with a cheder or yeshiva

Josh said...

I didnt say Israel is all bad, but someone had to suffer for your nice kollelim and those people who got the short end of the stick were at least acknowledged by the NK. No other Orthodox group seems to give very much attention to the plight of the Palestinians at all.

dovy said...

I think there is some misunderstanding here.
THere are two clear facts.
1. We all (FFB charedi jews) agree with Moshe Hirsh's hashkafa.
2. We all disagree with his tacticts
I also think it is obvious that we disagree with his tacticts it is very strange to see how he brings some people to such a rage that their blood starts boiling. Surely, we all agree that Sharon, who expelled 1,000s of jews from their home for no reason, was a worse person than hirsh, yet he does not evince the same rightous anger, nor do people like olmert, who stole from yad vashem and other charities, or even finkel. It is quite obvious that the hatred for hirsh and all NK stems from sympathy for zionism.

vi nisht vi said...

Anon @ 5:10pm,
I understand. OK. So you are saying he was a poresh min hatzibur. Good point. So that is why he deserves these horrible klalos that are being showered upon him as his body is laid to rest?!
I can think of quite a few “frum” people who were niftar that were infamous for doing things a lot worse than being poresh min hatzibur, yet nobody seemed to care when they passed.
My point is that you did not really answer my question. Why the vile rhetoric and ill wishes? Because he was poresh min hatzibur? You think so?

Bray,
Bad analogy. I expected better from you. Capos actually worked for the Nazis YM”S and beat and policed Jews. There is no evidence of any harm real that RM”H caused. He was nothing like a capo. He was stam silly.
As for talking out of 2 sides of my mouth, I don’t see why. I never called him a Tzadik, a Yashar or a Tamim etc… I called him a Talmid Chacham; and he was a Talmid Chacham – a “yodeiah sefer”, he knew a velt and was incredibly learned. I am not a bar plugta of his, but I anybody with some common sense can see that he was misguided. But to say he was a “traitor with blood on his hands”? Meiheicah teisi?
Again, I am not in any way condoning his actions, I am just not sure where everybody gets these ideas from - to curse and slander a man who has passed. Especially when nobody can say what he did that was so bad! Please somebody, I am not asking this l’kanter, explain what he did that was so bad!

Anonymous said...

Anon
"but did religious Zionism not go farther in its adoption of a near genocidal program vis a vis the local population? "
what are you talking about???????????????????

gershon said...

Hirshs' sons
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=16710&cat_id=1.
Well spoken

Anonymous said...

Dovy
"We all (FFB charedi jews) agree with Moshe Hirsh's hashkafa."
its not true

Anonymous said...

Vi Nisht
Did Hirsch's PR tactics help the PLO/Hamas views and deeds to be accepted and more legit in the eyes of world? yes or no? if the answer is yes then he has rachmono litzlan a hand in the mass killings that the Rotzchim slaughtered in Eretz Yisroel hundreds of yiden..He was warned by everyone he didn"t care,the Satmar Rov (another Krumkop)1 of his mentors writes that the Zionist had no right to go to wars since their is no Urim Vetumim, so did Hirsch ask the Urim Vetumim if he can hand over 7 Million Jews in the hands of beasts that have a constitution to wipe out the Am Hayoshev Betzion(Rachmono Yatzilanu)? he has a din Rodef times 7 million, a din Moser Gif Yisroel leYad Akum times 7 million. Please don"t call Moshe Hirsch a Tamim when he was funded by Arafat Yemach Shemo
Its irrelevant today the sins of Sharon and Peres we can discuss it another day.

Anonymous said...

m finkel leads a good rich life in shari hessed jerusalem,when not traveling w his new wife.

Yossele said...

Interestingly enough, R Amram Blau wrote in his tzavaa, that he wanted to be buried in Bnei Brak's Zichron Meir cemetry - NOT in Har Hazeisim or Hamenuchos, as both are "kibush"
But looks like Hashem had other plans --- he was niftar on erev Shabbos a/noon. so he was buried in Har Hazeisim.
Another point of interest, after Arafart died, Moshe Hirsh didnt have much to do with Abu Mazen, as he felt he was too Zionist-inclined, too willing to deal with them.
ultimatelty, even if Moshe Rabbeinu would come in a dream to these guys, they would say he is wrong. "Rabbeini sor min haderech"...

UD said...

Tzig,

As noted by schneur, inventing vernaculars, especially with a clumsily applied polessish-veisrussisher havore distilled through spinka ivri classes, doesn't lend you comprehensibility. What the quack is a "kapoyer" ?

On the subject, how about YAA"H kissing up and hugging the foremost anti-semite, hater and murderer in his generation ? Or about RYB"Z negotiating with a perpetrator of a Holocaust, responsible for wiping out most of Klal Yisroel and destroying the Jewish statehood for good - all in exchange of safety passage for a few dosen selected co-religionists allowed to preach as long they didn't practice too much ? How would those action be received if they were undertaken in our days - Masada versus Yavneh ?

Mottel said...

-UD: קאַפּויער |Kapoyer|: (adj.)
opposite, reverse

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Thanks, Mottel

UD thinks he's the ultimate Yiddish authority...

UD said...

Yomtov,

Most posters here aren't capable of contributing anything interesting, but are either tzig's yes-men, or are here to pour dirt on chabad/rabbeym (he doesn't seem to mind a lot). The owner of this blog is stam an arschloch with a YIVO manual stolen from Spinka library sticking out of it. Ma yesoron mikol amoloy ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

arschloch, very nice.

tell me, Natchalnik, you were concerned about personal attacks and called me insecure and worse for engaging in them. Why is it OK for yourself to do the same thing you so detest?
why won't you apologize for the "Kapoyer" jab you took at me?

why not be a real "gever" for once?

yomtov said...

UD,
You are right about the blog be infested by various yes-men such as the guy who doesn't know Yiddish who was "trying" to teach you.Even so,Schneour and people like Twistleton and some others sometimes allow this blog to save face.
I am personally always debating whether to respond to his fantasies and give him more coverage or let his fantasies and cult thinking go by.I don't think he knowingly lies but in a way dealing with a liar is much easier.A baal dimyon, someone stuck in the clutches of cultlike worship is much more difficult to deal with since he does not even know the difference between fact and fiction.
The guy responsible for turning this kid into a zombie should be locked up

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ladies and gentlemen

Mr. Yomtov here, Dr. Yomtov, rather, is dispensing free professional advice! and he's an obvious expert in his field, judging from his clear and precise writing and razor sharp intellect.

Step right up!

yomtov said...

Why do you need to be an expert in the field to diagnose a bal dimyon and a farchapteh neshumeh?
I"m no Herr Doctor but I do try and think for myself and unlike you don't take marching orders from schizophrenics and other idiots and kuved zichers from BP and it's environs who knew that the only place they would feel comfortable is in la la land aka "deyr hashvii"

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so I guess rationalizing Hirsch's behavior is "thinking for yourself?"

very nice.

I can't wait to see what's next...

so tell me, Mr. non-doctor: if I wasn't farchapped by anybody am I still farchapped?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so tell me: am I am bigger baal dimyon than Hirsh who thought him and his kids were the last real Jews on Earth?

am I a bigger baal dimyon than you, who knows very little about me, other than what I told you, yet makes all kinds of stupid assessments about me?

yomtov said...

If you joined the cult without even being manhandled by the aforementioned you are an interesting specimen, to say the least.
Understanding how someone would be attracted to a cult on the verge of going beserk, which would be in the late 80's early nineties is beyond my comprehension?
Maybe it was that terrible at home

yomtov said...

Hirsh made a lot of sense actually.
I totally don't agree with his methods though and talking about his kids, I just watched a clip that someone posted a link to over here and his son is a very rational and smart guy

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Lubavitch is a cult, and hugging Arafat and telling him to bomb elsewhere just not in Meah Shearim makes sense to you... nu, nu

You obviously didn't listen to the whole clip, where he called all other Rabbonim in the world Meshuchodim

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what also gets me is that you see nothing wrong with his home that you don't ask what caused him to do what he did - and what nobody else even thought of, not even the Satmar Rov!

yomtov said...

"You obviously didn't listen to the whole clip, where he called all other Rabbonim in the world Meshuchodim"

YOU obviously did not listen to the tape where YOUR rebbe called the Belzer a meshiched because he got money from the Goverment!

I"m not a defender of NK, so don't start nitpicking with me over it.
Their basic premise is compatible with what rov gedoley yisroel held.
Hugging reshoim is disgusting.
Agav it's time to reread the Rasha"bs letters on Zionism, the exact NK ideology!
Dor Hashvi was a Zionist and he had the full right to decide for himself, what I can't stand is that Lubavitch will twist everything to claim that he was the biggest Anti Zionist! What a joke! He loved the idea of a Jewish army, he loved the idea that Jews stand up for themselves!And I can understand why, coming from growing up in Czarist Russia with all the pogroms and hearing all the stories from his parents.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yomtov

you sound desperate. Desperate to defend something you don't like - or so you say - abi to argue with me, which explains your appreciation of UD, whom you don't know. You're jumping from topic to topic, comparing Yisroel Meir Hirsch's statements to the Rebbe, shlepping in the Rashab when you know nothing.

UD said...

My brown eyed goat, if it makes you feel better, I'll admit without shame that yes, you've beaten me by digging up a YIVO obscurantism that has all but fallen into the place where sun doesn't shine and dredging it up as if it's some proof of your belonging to the "intellektfule" crowd from the North. But alas, I refuse to be a real "gever", since in the places so frequented by Anash from Futerfas to Rubashkin velemaa'lo bakeides, that would imply a "פאַסיװער משכב-זכרניק", un dos bin ikh nit. I leave that to your more frequent crowd.

Friendly reminder that you still haven't told us what takeh is the difference between evil Musa Hirsch and those other examples of "collaboration with the enemy" known from history or yidishkeyt, even though you had a chance to comment on everything inbetween.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

UD

your average kid in BP, Willy, and yes, even CH and Lakewood would know what "kapoyer" is. No need to dig at YIVO. But again, you wouldn't know that...

As far as you thinking that MH was RYBZ's incarnate; Ask that question to any of thousands of Rabbonim that seem to disagree, MH wasn't the first one to learn about that. And from what I hear it was Yisroel Meir's idea, not even his!

Anonymous said...

"You obviously didn't listen to the whole clip, where he called all other Rabbonim in the world Meshuchodim"

Why is that worse than the claims you have for all anti-Chabad rabbonim, that they had negiyot, etc.?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

1) all anti-Chabad is not all

2) did I call them Mischabrim LeReshoyim and Mushchodim?

3) I guess that makes me a Tzadik and well-meaning too now?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

besides

what Hirsh does is unprovokedly attack all Rabbonim that disagree with him

Anonymous said...

1) What's the difference? You apply it to ALL anti-Chabad? [I am sure he also had a list of "good" Rabbonim]

2)Actually, Mushchadim is less of an insult than having nigeyot.[Being influenced by money is less severe than leading a campaing motivated on a taanah from decades before: Lod]

You think they are Rishuim (not just attached to rishuim)! They are messengers of Satan, etc.

3)Nah, the guy who pagered was a russian. Unless, we just whitewash him as a nut, like we do to Meshichists.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Even so,Schneour and people like Twistleton and some others sometimes allow this blog to save face."

Thank you very much for the compliment. Although it is just about sacrilegious to mention me in the same line as Schneur!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Twisty

I was expecting a shtikkel macho'eh from you on my behalf. I guess I was silly in doing so...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

" was expecting a shtikkel macho'eh from you on my behalf. I guess I was silly in doing so..."

Flattery works every time :-)

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

" was expecting a shtikkel macho'eh from you on my behalf. I guess I was silly in doing so..."

Seriously, it is your blog. More dosen't need to be said.

Anonymous said...

I don't ge it. If Hirsh was on Arafats payroll doesn't that make him also mishuched?

Anonymous said...

Anonits simple, he was Meshuchaed from the Sitra Dekdusha? Arafat and his killing machine.

yoshe kalb said...

BTW, as "Minister for Jewish Affairs" in the PA, did he ever lift a finger to help even one of the hundreds of unfortunate Jewish women ( and their halachically Jewish children ) trapped in Arab villages by their ( in most cases ) abusive Arab husbands?
I don't think so, ergo his place is in the underground car park...

Anonymous said...

Yoshe Kalb
These NK guys are against the all kiruv concept. The world has no idea how deep in the Sheol Tachtis these people are.

vi nisht vi said...

Anon @ May 04, 3:05:00 AM:
You just fierd ois some crazy stuff from a wild hypothesis!
A roidef times 7 mil? C’mon…
He never handed over anybody to anybody.
He may have wanted to hand the medina over to the Palestinians, but he never wanted to hurt a single Yiddishe nishoma - and he didn’t.
I will reiterate again, I am not condoning his actions. I just don’t understand what he did that has people like you all worked up as if he is the rasha of the century.
Also, you need to read more carefully. Before you lambast me for calling RMH a tamim, read what I wrote; I wrote that he was NOT a tamim!
So, anybody out there care to explain what RMH did that was so bad that even after his passing people are showering him with the worst wishes I’ve ever heard?
I am not saying he was a good man, I just don’t see why he was any worse than many other “frummeh” that have done wrong in their lives and passed without anybody saying boo.
Which of the 613 was he oiver?
Does anybody here really believe that their chelek in hell will be any better than his?

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Its about time to have a online symposium on the new Kelipa of Natrunoa. It is NK lite, by putting in ads in all newspapers that hurt the interest and the security of 7 Million of the Am haYoshev beTzion. Which Rov is their posek to pasken Dinie Nefoshas on such mass scale.How can people sit idle when frum Jews are stabbing Klal Yisroel in such a irresponsible way. Was this the derech of Rav Wiessmandel? Is hurting the security of klal yisroel because of some midrash that their Rebbe propagandized the ideal way to help Israel's security? They are ready to take us back to the crematoriums. Rav Wiessmandel accuses Greenbaum for not helping the hatzola work for the sake of his Zionistic ideology(which BTW has also its sources in Midrashim even more Midrashim then the 3 oaths of the Satmar Neo Ani Mamin)

Anonymous said...

was he giving aid to rotzchim that killed thousands of yidishe kinder?? And were working to wipe out 7 million jews from the face of the earth? Yes or No. Ribono Shel Olum what are we arguing about?

Anonymous said...

Was he?
I dont know....
Do you?
There is certainly no proof at all that he helped them in any way.
Posed for pictures, yes. Went to meet, yes. But helped??? How???

vi nisht vi said...

RMH may have posed for pictures. He may have shook hands with them. But he never aided them. Stop believing every story you hear.
Shimon Peres aided them by entering into a peace agreement with them and providing them with weaponry. He also gave them a nice slab of land and kicked Yidden out of their homes for that. But 2 weeks ago he was walking around Pozeviz shaking hands with the bachurim! Netanyahu shook Arafats hand. Hillary Clinton hugged arafat. The list goes on and on and on...
Why does RMH deserve to be called all these things that nobody else is called????
Again, stop with your boich sevaras and tell me which of the 613 he was oiver! Not which he might possibly have been oiver had he taken 7 mil Yidden to a Palestenian firing squad....

Anonymous said...

Anon,
In the world of politics PR is one of the pillars of a war strategy, Hitler knew it and Arafat understood it too,he got a freer hand to kill Jews year after year by help of his PR machine, this evil Moshe Hirsch delivered him some parts of the pr on a golden palette, and he got well paid according to the NYT

Anonymous said...

Vi Nisht
Frieman the lunatic from Wash. Heights from the Hirsch clique had contacts for years with Anan Ashrawi and Arafat for years, he was personally aiding her how to package their inhuman ideology for the fuzzy western Dick and Harry.I didn't hear from other people I know it for a fact, Hirsch and him are real twisted sickos.

Anonymous said...

Vi Nisht
You are right on Shimon Peres too

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon

I saw the Natruna ads, and it's basically NK minus the hugs to Ahmedenijad, but almost as bad. It makes the Kanoyim (Satmar) feel like they're also fighting the evil Tziyonim.

Anonymous said...

Natrunoa
Is approved by both Titelbaum brothers, since you can not officiate as a Rebbe in Satmar if you don't pay homage to the Nu Ani Maamin of the 3 oaths, Both sides Being in Court for the last 30 years being a Marim Yad Betoras Moshe is a Lechatchila, since its only a Shulchan Orech not a Midrash in Shir Hashirim, I write because the world is numb to the churban that this egomaniacs are bringing upon us

yoske said...

Ud, Yakov Avinu thought Eisav would kill him, therefore, he was trying to save himself. Ubber the niftar, was making a political statement that he stands by soinei yisroel, as long as they are anti-zionist, no matter how many yidden they kill